The Vacuum Within: Universal Vacuum Feedback

[Gilmaesh]

The new vacuum is not enough, by the time it activate you're already close to the 3m innate warframe radius or on top of the loot. Add some latency in the mix and it loses most of its effect. 8m-10m would be a better number or the 10 rank mod idea is not bad either. 

@Azrael

It was nerfed for the same reason convergence orbs, reactants, ayatan stars&statues, explosive/cold/electric traps were added or drako/credits/stealth kills were nerfed and of course the addition of nitain . In 2016 they have been focusing a lot on players progression (loots/affinity/credits) and they also needed ways to slow us down a bit in missions, corpus glasses and friend doors were not enough it seems.

It's not a bad thing in the grand scheme of things if done right, i think ayatan stars&statue were a smart addition and drako had to go, but most of them are just a pain to deal with.

[Slaviar]

2 hours ago, (PS4)DesecratedFlame said:

Again, "making more ammo" != "carrying your loot". They took him from the most useful sentinel in the game to "ammo drum: the companion," and we all know how useful the community finds ammo drum. 

We were arguing over its name-to-function, not usefulness. Because in case of usefulness it went down. Better solution would be storing ammo instead of increasing capacity. But I guess capacity was easier to code.

2 hours ago, (PS4)DesecratedFlame said:

Like I said before, it might be less of a problem if he instantly converted ammo at the same efficiency as primed ammo conversion mods, and vacuum had not been nerfed when it was given to the other sentinels.  If DE wants to make the Vacuum backlash go away, then all they really need to do is make the vacuum passive 12m and add an option in the settings to toggle it off for the people that don't want to use it. 

I'm totally indifferent in Carrier feud. I wasn't using it and I couldn't care less about Vacuum. I'm simply amazed at reaction of some people, They react like without 12m Vacuum frame loses 99% of all stats.

2 hours ago, (PS4)DesecratedFlame said:

I just don't get DE to be honest. They main draw of their game, the main thing that gets people into WF, is the speed, how much faster it is than other modern shooters.  Yet, every change they make seems to be in pursuit of making the game slower. They did the same thing with parkour 2.slow until there was a huge community backlash, which lead to us getting aim gliding and bullet jumping, which helped the game maintain a bit of its speed.

Rather than trying to get rid of the game's speed for some reason, DE should be using it as a selling/marketing point. 

Yeah, it's weird. This game is supposed to be fast paced and yet there are modes like Defence.

Loot gathering was never an issue for me though. Kill group of mobs, spend five seconds gathering loot, keep killing/parkouring

Edited October 6, 2016 by Slaviar

[rngd444]

31 minutes ago, SenorClipClop said:

The Tenno of the Forums did.

Yeah, right. Because they react to everything that's wanted by the players immediately and there's no other course of action possible. /s

 

32 minutes ago, SenorClipClop said:

You are forgiven. The WIP stamp is probably the primary reason we're still calling Warframe a beta. We are playing an unfinished game and a lot of people seem to forget that.

I can't take anyone seriously who supports them in this stupid categorisation. They clearly don't understand what beta means and since they take great measures to introduce unfinished mechanics, reworks or content with every major update without any real interest to make all of it work properly in any realistic and timely manner (if at all), it's nothing more than a PR stunt.

 

39 minutes ago, SenorClipClop said:

I don't know about you, but if I were developing a game and needed to fix an element of its core mecahnics, "a lot of people use it" would not be enough data for me.

And I don't know why you'd understand my take regarding their collected data as an exclusively usage oriented one. If they are interested in any other data about Vacuum, they'll have all of that already was all I said and since it's the same for all Sentinels, there's no Vacuum-oriented data to be gained; it's all just preference from there on.

 

43 minutes ago, SenorClipClop said:

It makes sense to strip Vacuum down to its bare bones when they put it on a variety of Sentinels. I think DE wants to see if having Vacuum on other Sentinels will actually make people diversify their Sentinel selection, and they shortened the range (temporarily, I hope) so they can watch us and see if players are now using other Sentinels to pick up items.

No, it doesn't. How would it if even you yourself hope it's only temporary. The range has nothing to do with the now possible Sentinel choice and if they really needed data to see if people will use other Sentinels, they'd be way too little confident to make such a change in the first place. They could, for once, test their game by themselves to see if what they're doing makes sense at all but that seems way too unreasonable on a concept basis. /s

[Meliq]

3 hours ago, robbybe01234 said:

Hah, there is always a logic or philosophy student in these forums. 

Look, does the point come across or not?  Would you like to argue semantics with another person instead of giving your feedback to the change?

I did argue my point.  Just because you missed it does not mean it was not there. 

Also, you are assuming facts not in evidence.

[Sirfol]

You can use nekros with shade becoming invisible and picking up loot without being seen at a resoneable speed, thing u coudn't do without naramon or some arcane

[notlamprey]

1 minute ago, EchoesOfRain said:

So by this logic searching for Ayatan scupltures and Syndicate Medallions is a horrible part of the game because you have to slow down and check for them all around the map? What about scanning enemies into the codex, or scanning Kuria? All of these should be shot out of the airlock because they can't be done at a fast and engaging pace? You guys need to learn how to enjoy the game for what it is.

Yes, it sucked when I transitioned from Carrier to Kavat, but I got used to it. before long I forgot how over-convenient Carrier was. You guys just need to calm down and get used to the 6m pickup range. You've all let Carrier spoil you for far too long

Bless you, but you've missed the point in your hurry to be correct about something.

I have 52 Ayatan Sculptures. I enjoyed hunting for them because Carrier gave me the efficient option of moving quickly while hunting for their rough location. Once I had the rough location, I was more than happy to slow down and search carefully until I found exactly where it was.

I've said it elsewhere, and you'd be forgiven for not having stumbled across it, but I have no problem with Syndicate tokens / Ayatan Stars / any of the items which vacuum doesn't interact with. What vacuum allowed me to do was move through the map quickly, using the parkour system, while I searched.

That is no longer possible.

Again, you're too concerned with being right, and you're missing the fact that many players lost a Warframe experience they found fun. More accurately, they're being pushed to do something they find to be very much not fun.

That should be prompting a discussion of what can be done to fix that, and not bickering over who is a better person because of what they can and can't put up with.

[EmptyDevil]

Is Vacuum horrifically overrated? No.

Is Vacuum overrated? Yes.

Is Vacuum convenient? Yes.

Do i rely on Vacuum? No, i prefer Kavats/Kubrows.

Would i like to see it 'nerfed' or removed because i don't rely on it? No.

Do i understand why the range was reduced? Partially. I can see some abuse and/or bugs that come with long range sucking.

Can i think of valid pros and cons of Vacuum? Yes.

Would i like to see innate Vacuum on Warframes, like Archwing? Yes.

[SmallRuth]

The difference between Medallions and Ayatans is that I don't need 12301927317239812 Syndicate Medallions to make a new gun I might have a lot of fun with.

I like hunting for Ayatans and Medallions and Kurias when I feel like it. That's fun! I don't like not being able to grab this chunk of 20 Ferrite because it's 1m out of my Wyrm Prime's range and I am taking fire from eight thousand nullifiers I can't parkour away from because they are camping their fat butts on top of it because I had the audacity to want to build a gun/utility item/whatever that needs a billion Ferrite to construct. I murdered that box/dude - the thing dropped fairly close to me, yet it remains out of reach I once totally had.

 

**Edit ** To echo notlampry above me, hunting for non-Vacuumed treasures is a hell of a lot more fun when you're parkouring around, looking for them and sweeping up crafting loot while you do so.

Edited October 6, 2016 by SmallRuth

[Serafim_94]

To all the people who say that "oh yea, this nerf is good and will make scrubs play properly":

1)Where is skill in gathering loot?
2)Where is challenge in gathering loot?
3Where is fun in gathering loot?

There is a reason Carrier was so over-popular. That reason is - people want to play the game, not wander around gathering crap. Universal vacuum is good thing, but it should be the same size it was on Carrier. No "if" or "but".

Edited October 6, 2016 by Serafim_94

[Gritzan]

1 minute ago, DeFragMe said:

sure. but what i mean is.

Does that user has to search for the loot 15-50 min to get everything together (depending on how he does the mission=, or should the user just take 5min to get the loot while rushing through a singel mission.

i mean iam no game designer, but i would take option one. It  increases the playtime of my players, even if some drop of.

You killed 554330 enemies by pressing 4.

They dropped loot.

That loot, by all rights considering how the game works, is yours.

Now depending on whether you have 5m vacuum or 12m vacuum, that takes x amount of time to collect or 8x amount of time to collect. The collecting is busywork that shouldn`t affect a game designer's opinion on how long a mission took to complete.

Also, taking longer to complete a mission doesn't mean the mission, or the game, is better.

[Necrius]

5 hours ago, Tsukinoki said:

The problem with just giving vacuum back its 12 meter range:
Because its a zero cost effect.

I think I understand DEs logic behind the nerf when they made this change.
Lets look at the old Vacuum shall we?
-Limited to Carrier only.  A very strict cost in the term of what companions you could use if you want vacuum.
-It used a mod slot and mod capacity, and used Endo to rank up.
-It was a precept and messed with what Carrier could do.  E.G. if carrier was vacuuming it wasn't shooting and vice versa.  If Carrier was using Sanctuary it wasn't doing either.  Now a sentinel can be attacking or using sanctuary or another precept and still Vacuum.

Nothing in this game that is super powerful is absolutely zero cost.
That is why DE nerfed it to be less powerful.  Since it costs absolutely nothing its not as powerful.
It's basic balancing 101: The less something costs and the less drawbacks it has the less powerful it is.

Basically you say DE are very stingy when it comes to giving players free stuff, even if it's just QoL that barely affects gameplay.

[notlamprey]

1 minute ago, Serafim_94 said:

To all the people who say that "oh yea, this nerf is good and will make scrubs play properly":

1)Where is skill in gathering loot?
2)Where is challenge in gathering loot?
3Where is fun in gathering loot?

There is a reason Carrier was so over-popular. That reason is - people want to play the game, not wander around gathering crap. Universal vacuum is good thing, but it should be the same size it was on Carrier. No "if" or "but".

This is what players deserve, since a comprehensive overhaul of the loot system would take much longer.

[rngd444]

1 minute ago, Sirfol said:

You can use nekros with shade becoming invisible and picking up loot without being seen at a resoneable speed, thing u coudn't do without naramon or some arcane

You can do that now, yes. But it has nothing to do with the question as to whether or not there are any arguments pro range nerf.

[Firetempest]

In before Vacuum booster range for a nominal plat fee. The pay to waste less time farming the farming game.

The game is built around stuff. DE made the original mistake of thinking collecting stuff easily was a option that equaled combat mechanics. Added combat precepts was the true lazy route when your frame could already clear rooms with a single button. Now they are fixing that.

Now they nerf the farming part. You know, what the game is built around to keep you going killing stuff for new resource models to make things to kill more for more stuff to make stuff to kill stuff for more stuff...

No one really needs a cloak, stun, "death beam" (remember that sentinel?). The only other useful sentinel was already balanced. Helios. The waste less time scanning the scanning game. Yet it wont help with Simaris rep. Which is I guess the balance.

Edited October 6, 2016 by Firetempest

[robbybe01234]

4 minutes ago, Meliq said:

I did argue my point.  Just because you missed it does not mean it was not there. 

Also, you are assuming facts not in evidence.

Ok, I was referring to my point coming across not yours.  Which it does.  Also, this isn't a court room and I don't need to prove anything to give feedback. 

Also, my bad, I left out law students.  Odd, a lot of those people seem to like to use these forums to practice what they learned in class.

[Sirfol]

Just now, rngd444 said:

You can do that now, yes. But it has nothing to do with the question as to whether or not there are any arguments pro range nerf.

the fact u can do it means that we have more Choices,This, For me it's a pro, and with a range of 12m i would have trouble with a sentinel in a survival with a map with hallways because i will be Obligated to pick up LF drops even with a 99%/100%, i will have trouble if i had 299/300 energy and obligated to pick up a energy orb because vacuum is too big. but this is only my opinion right?

[notlamprey]

Players need an option to mod for vacuum's original range.

I'm sure there are a number of ways we can accomplish that, requiring a reasonable investment from the player in exchange for that convenience.

Forcing us to play Space Janitor with a broken broom isn't cutting it for me.

[armedpoop]

4 hours ago, Azrael said:

Lol at "the core PvE experience of "picking up your loot"."

Since when was walking over things the core experience of PvE?

My thoughts exactly. I cant believe that ANYONE can defend this change. Its nice thats its universal between sentinels and all, but why not cut the middle man and put it on frames? And why would you nerf the range? Makes no sense to me at all. 

 

Just blown away by all the apologists, honestly. 

[Michaelcf1]

I actually like them, my only complaint is 6 meters is a little to small. If you do the maths that's 1/8 the volume of before, something like 8-9 meters would be a true half the range/volume.

Anyway I like it, I don't actually want Vacuum on Kubrows, Kavats or Warframes, As I think Kubrows are meant to be offensive tanks, Kavats are supports/buffers with some damage as well, and Sentinels are utility. So having Vacuum limited to sentinels is good and gives them a purpose, otherwise I feel like we would have the same problem of Carrier's usage in reverse in which everyone would use the Smeeta Kavat because why wouldn't you.

[Necrius]

9 hours ago, KAHO16 said:

maybe DE got mad with a lot of Tenno farming ayatan sculpture TOO EASY with vacuum. (and with telos boltace, etc.)

So, DE makes it harder to farm ayatan treasure so that users realize that ayatan treasure is more valuable than before the TVW.

 

...imo

It's not valuable at all. Measly 1000 credits for Orokin knick-knack or pay a crapton of credits to squeeze some endo out of it. That's not value I'm gonna pay for.

[Xzorn]

10 minutes ago, (XB1)ashes of suvius said:

I can't agree with this enough, as a fan of long runs my best times in the game were hanging out with buddies for more than an hour, uninterrupted by picking relics and reforming the squad because the relic picking system is buggy as it gets. They've taken all of our most played things n ruined them or scrapped them, made them more tedious n less efficient, and the worst things in the game... Well oberons passive anyone? Is that balance? Why do we need balance only when it adds more bs to playing the game efficiently?

 

Same here.

I still think back to the 3 hour T3 Defense I did with friends, we went to lvl 1,725. It was crazy trying to keep the objective alive when 2 shots would destroy it.

The game was intense and fun.

I don't even do Fissure unless I need to stock up on Formas for the month, they're boring as hell.

They keep talking about statistical data or feedback and I can't help but wonder what that data told them when they were going to introduce Fissure and destroy endless missions. It's notoriously known that DE can't balance, we forgive them for the sake of good ideas and fun mechanics.

 

[Sloan441]

Overall, I think the change was good. I think the present radius on vacuum is a bit too small.

I will use other sentinels now, where before it was all Carrier or CarrierP. They'll still see a lot of use, mostly because Carrier Prime is, well, a prime. However, depending on loadout, I'll be using Prisma Shade and the good ol' Dethcube again.

A net gain. Nevertheless, I think the vacuum radius could stand to be 8m. I don't really see any reason it should be less than 12m, but if DE wants us moving around more, then I think 8m is a good universal number. 6m is a bit...fiddly--a lot of really unnecessary to-ing and fro-ing.

[Babellon]

Well at least you guys haven't resorted to stalking and killing each other yet. 

People are behaving as if this change is some end of the world scenario. 6m range is half the range of the original vacuum yes. How ever it's effect on legitimate game play is negligible. You have to move a step closer on your screen, a fact which coincidently does not require any actual physical effort. In reality, we the players are moving our hands on a keyboard and mouse/controller exerting little to know physical movement at all. So in essence, we are arguing not about how much 'effort' its taking, but rather how much lack of effort we're wanting to put into moving our hands on a keyboard. 

Are people really this upset that they have to press the 'W' key a few more miliseconds or turn their mouse left or right a little bit more to locate something on their screen? That is the amount of effort we're discussing here. 

People keep demanding "facts" in this conversation. You have no more fact than I do to support a position.

      fact-DE doesn't actually need to justify themselves to us, they are the company, the developers. That they ask our opinion at all is a courtesy in itself.

fact- we're arguing the amount of movement of our fingers on a keyboard and attention we need to apply to our screen.

there's two facts. 

You've applied more energy to typing out a response to this statement than you will to moving your character across the screen to make up for those pixel meters they took from vacuum.

Edited October 6, 2016 by Babellon

[nickl3188]

But stealth really doesn't have anything to do with it. If you're doing stealth, you tend to be up close already (at least I am with ivara). The range was great because this is a fast pace game, where you can fly through the air, jump around, and rarely technically have to touch the ground (as shown with Titania). So being able to run around a quickly grab drops, and not worrying about being shot is an important point (especially if it still effects things like snow globe or zephyrs turbulence, or even limbo in the rift being able to collect everything around him then just pop in and out)

[AperoBeltaTwo]

31 minutes ago, Zectorcop said:

This is one of the only games I play that DOESN'T have some sort of passive pickup at a considerable range, and it's also one of the fastest paced games I play. Those two things aren't very well mixed, DE. 

My point exactly.

Edited October 6, 2016 by AperoBeltaTwo