Bladestorm rework feedback

[Nazrethim]

14 minutes ago, NightBlitz said:

i think the problem is that far too many of those "innovative" reworks that players come up with, just aren't viable. afterall, players are good at pointing out whats wrong, but they're horrible at coming up with ways to fix them. i guess that comes from the fact that very few of them even understand game development

That's true, but some people did came up with innovative ideas that were viable and did fix stuff that DE's rework doesn't even touch (like Smoke Screen being "Invisibility with stun" and Teleport made redundant with Blade Storm around). And the op does understand a bit about game development by asking the "rework" (though I doubt tweaking the targeting system and literally nothing else could count as one) to be pushed back until they can fully develop something good that solves actual issues.

 

5 minutes ago, SenorClipClop said:

Honestly, I don't think we've seen or experienced enough of how this ability will work to be criticizing it just yet. I'm interested, [DE]Rebecca seemed to be doing just fine with it on the stream and I'm going to try it out once the rework goes live. It may some getting used too -- after all, most Ash players have been leaning hard on their ability to just press a button and go make a sandwich -- but it could end up working really well with a little practice.

The biggest issue I can see coming up, as many Tenno have been worrying about, is that holding down the 4 key while marking targets will slow Ash's gameplay to below the pace of the game. If this problem occurs, they can easily fix it by turning Bladestorm from a hold-and-release ability into a press-twice toggle: hit 4 once and Ash marks enemies his reticle passes over up to a cap, hit 4 again to go to work on all the targets he's marked.

For me the issues are:

-Makes Teleport 100% redundant

-DE didn't do jack for Smoke Screen and Teleport

-Doesn't really change anything other than the targeting system, the ability is exactly the same, but clunkier.

I would prefer having this "rework" pushed back a few months and DE doing a real rework for Ash (he's one of the original 8 Warframes after all) instead of delivering a poorly tweaked power.

[swizzybeatzjamz]

Exactly they didn't even think of his other three abilities Ash is outdated. He needs a full revamp to his kit. What they are proposing isnt a rework its a adjustment. Only thing they did was make him weaker and less playable.

[Rolunde]

2 minutes ago, SenorClipClop said:

The biggest issue I can see coming up, as many Tenno have been worrying about, is that holding down the 4 key while marking targets will slow Ash's gameplay to below the pace of the game. If this problem occurs, they can easily fix it by turning Bladestorm from a hold-and-release ability into a press-twice toggle: hit 4 once and Ash marks enemies his reticle passes over up to a cap, hit 4 again to go to work on all the targets he's marked.

This for me is the only issues I have with what we've seen so far.

Seeing it brought to mind playing an Archer in TERA and their ability Arrow Volley.

Arrow Volley: Lock on to and fire at several targets at once.

Press the skill button once and mouseover to lock on up to X targets within 18m, then press the skill button again to shoot at all targets.

IMO Tera is not exactly a slow paced game but the pace is much slower most of the time than that of Warframe.  

There are usually a lot fewer targets than in Warframe and also more room to sort of run around in a circle while mousing over enemies.
 iirc you'd probably highly like 5 enemies vs Warframes 18!
 and this while probably kiting those enemies pretty easily where in Warframe they'd probably blow your head off, haha. (esp Bombards!)

Now, playing an Archer in Tera I really didn't enjoy that power, it always felt kind of clunky or derpy.

If that were a power in Warframe which I find to be much more fast paced and deadly while having to hold down the button the entire time, I don't think I'd call that "fun".

Being able to toggle the targeting On and then tap to Use wouldn't be nearly as bad as having to hold it. 

I do like the ideas behind the energy cost per target and that the targets can be killed off before (and during?) Bladestorm.

Really when i play Ash I lean a lot more on Teleport than BS and mostly just use BS to clear out Trash to speed things up sometimes (assuming there is something that counts as Trash mobs) and for the Invulnerability window it provides to stuff like Fire, Slash, Toxin procs and those good old Bombard Rockets, etc.

So I guess due to that in the end I'd probably be about in the same place with Ash as I am now and just not use 4 much in favor of 3.

But then for anyone that runs their Ash as a Teleport Killing Machine like I do, if Bladestorm does basically the same thing then all effort to change it was wasted.

TL;DR - 
 IMO, Press/Press would be preferable to Press/Hold.  
 But this is still not the change I am looking for. 

[Eienlanzer]

On 10/8/2016 at 1:39 AM, Sannidor said:

Press 4 and hold to mark enemies presented in the stream seems like awkward way to use such a power.

99% PC players use keyboard&mouse, even with joypad it is not the best solution.

How about:

Tap 4 to mark enemies, hold 4 to start power.

Marking a single enemy seems pretty harsh, they often gather in clusters (especially Infested) so this should function as a narrow cone and with physical obstacles obstructing marking process, not enemies covering other enemies.

 

I wonder if marks will vanish over time, if power will be affected by range, if we will have to point at an enemy to start bladestorm after marking.

I see potential for an augment mod in markings on their own - like: it takes 10 energy to mark an enemy who gets armor debuff and drops orbs on kill.

 

Overall, good to see continuation of 'no more press 4 to win' policy, not that there's many unbalanced frames left, coughEmbercough.

I completely disagree! I think this is a very functional change. Of course, I am also allowed to change my opinion once we are all able to try it. 

[Xekrin]

I feel like they are trying way to hard to keep the overall essence of the current BS intact.  The fatality style animations, the clones and so on.  They are pretty spiffy for sure but at some point they need to realize we don't use ash just to see the animations.  In fact, the animations are probably number 1 reason a lot of people find Ash boring, not just the auto targetting.

I think if they went into a completely different direction and used the animations sparingly rather than on every marked target it would make the animations feel far more special, unique and interesting to see.

The clones too are something they are trying really hard to keep when it shouldn't be a priority.  Clones are awesome yes but it is due to the clones, the animations and the one click targetting all together that make the current BS rather dull.  Simply replacing one of these aspects (targetting) isn't going to be enough to make the ability worthwhile and keeping the rest won't allow the ability to maintain its current usefulness.

I'm not a hardcore ash fan so I cant speak even from experience but I'd definitely prefer a total rewrite that only keeps a smidgen of the old style rather than trying to incorporate the old style so heavily into a rework just to see if it plays out.

[Ibro156]

Ash's changes don't really seem like a rework but rather a tweak. To be honest, Seeing the gameplay from latest Devstream, I honestly think it's going to be more of nonsense than an actual improvement. Even then, the real issue that it's boring to watch Ash does the samething again and again with no effort. The fact "holding down a button" does really changes this. What shown just seems to be clunkier and somewhat of a step back than a step forward. DE had said it themselves they want to make it more interactive.

6 minutes ago, Xekrin said:

I'm not a hardcore ash fan so I can't speak even from experience but I'd definitely prefer a total rewrite that only keeps a smidgen of the old style rather than trying to incorporate the old style so heavily into a rework just to see if it plays out.

 

 Well, am a big fan of Ash. I think it's better to scrap Bladestorm and create a new ability from scratch.

[(PSN)samppaH]

The current so called " rework" isn't a proper rework it's more like function update or a tweak.

[PH03N1XUS]

*Sigh* I've been away for two months and Bladestorm isn't up to everyone's satisfaction. Sure keeps the forums lively.

[ixacalibur]

Just got back into the game after awhile and i found out about this Ash rework, seems ok to me but might not meet others expectation.

[(XBOX)SickWicked]

This was my concern as a console player... holding down that button no matter how you have your controller setup will be awkward and make it almost impossible to do anything else while using his 4.  A tap to release and a hold to activate or a tap and tap as stated already would make it much more possible on a controller.

[Shuuro]

These are some of the idea's I've come up with after seeing the demo on the stream; These ideas are meant to add ontop of and work with the new system.

Alright, so after watching the dev stream, I decided to play a bit of Warframe, play my Ash for a bit.

With this new look on blade storm, where we could mark enemies for death, as it currently is a press to hold and paint enemies ability, that's... going to cause problems to say the least, and I'm pretty sure the devs have seen many complaints about it being too slow, not wanting to stand in place to paint targets, having to take away a finger to hold the skill down, etc. I think a large majority of people could agree on having it as a toggle and paint targets would be more sufficient.

But that isn't the reason I'm making this thread. Although there have been complaints on how this isn't going to work, the devs already have a system in place, so let's try and "make" this work.

As with the other Reworks before, the focus is to try and make other abilities work with each other, and if we do get a toggle and we can safely walk around painting targets for death, why not add a system on top of that?

Shuriken: While targets are marked for death, when hit by a shuriken, that enemy will automatically have a Shadow Clone of Ash perform Blade Storm on that target, perhaps using up all the stacked marks for death on that target?

I had noticed one distinct change that I haven't actually remember seeing there while playing today; Shuriken now pierces through enemies. Neat. Might be something to add into his whole new rework. I still personally feel that his Shuriken count need to be increased to 4 while spreading the damage across. So instead of 2 Shurikens dealing 500 each, it would be 4 Shurikens dealing 250 each. This would help with not only applying the Seeking Shuriken Augment, but also easier to activate the marked for death blade storm.

Smoke Screen: A simple change to this would be, enemies marked for death that are hit by the stun of smoke screen, could either be blinded, or activate the blade storms marks for death and have shadow clones come in and assassinate them. A lingering smoke screen would also be nice *cough*

Teleport: Perhaps if the augment is used, other targets that are marked for death in a small radius around the target being attacked by the finisher would also have their marks for death consumed and Shadow Clones come to assassinate them.

 

If we really are getting a system in which we do use blade storm to paint targets, maybe we should have our energy consumed when the targets get attacked by blade storm instead of having our energy drained when we paint them?

If not, and we do use energy to paint enemies for death, perhaps we could even give them a slight debuff? Something as simple as a small boost to damage, higher melee damage, higher critical chance maybe? Who knows. My suggestions are trying to add on top of what we've seen that we're already getting. So hopefully my proposal will be heard.

Edited October 10, 2016 by Shuuro

[SenorClipClop]

2 hours ago, Rolunde said:

TL;DR - 
 IMO, Press/Press would be preferable to Press/Hold.  
 But this is still not the change I am looking for. 

I get what you're saying and I agree, this still may not be quite what Ash needs. But how to proceed with Bladestorm to match the pace of Warframe but also change it to be more involved than the current press-4-to-win it is now? I see a lot of Tenno thinking that to make Bladestorm work really well, Ash needs a more thorough rework, and I agree, but I think DE wants to make his changes minimal, since so many people really like Ash the way he is. Any ideas?

Perhaps if Bladestorm remained instant and just had its range extended but limited to a large cone in front of him? This would make it slightly more active, but still just like a WoF with ninjas. Or would this make it too much like Teleport?

[SenorClipClop]

Should we really have a feedback thread on a change none of us have tried yet?

[UrbanShade]

What i saw in DEvstream, Digital Extremes gonna rework Ash's ultimate onto something more powerfull, but slower perforing (if u want to perform bladestorm on more than 2-3 enemies, u will need 4-5 seconds, so no fastcast on 1st visible enemy to kill crowd).

in that case Ash need something to compensate, something quick. He already had Shuriken, so why not slightly buff it?

Ability damage is decent, maybe homing system should be slightly adjusted to be more precise (throw where aim) or homing thing can be leaded, like Nova's Antimatter Drop. Also, i think, 2 projectiles are not that good. I can suggest to make it 4. 0 level of ability - 1 star, 1st level - 2 stars, 2nd level - 3 stars and 3rd (max level of ability) - 4 stars thrown on cast. Range, casting speed, costprice - all that thing, and dmg too, seems decent for 1st ability. Also, i dont know about technecal realisation of that, but i think, that if hit of shuriken can deal micro-stun to enemy, something like impact proc, but being overall slash based ability, that will be good and add a little bit of CC, that Ash sometimes needs (other CC that he has is stun from Smokebomb or stagger from teleportation, both arent that big CC powers and CC effects). So, overall, Shuriken will became if not main, but way more used Ash's ability, when reworked Bladestorm will be used on toughter enemies.

P.S. sorry for bad english, hard for me to write something complex (more than 2-liner) with good grammar, but im trying to be better.

Edited October 10, 2016 by UrbanShade

[Jin_Kazama]

Bro, you have an augment mod that gives it 70% armor shred.. 140% power strength and you have Insta armor shredding shurikens...

 

[Rolunde]

As to what to do with Bladestorm instead?

Well I don't consider myself nearly as creative as the DEvs and they're usually pretty good at coming up with all kinds of cool stuff. And whatever happens it'd need to fit their vision of the game. But I mean what a change on Excal from Super Jump to Exalted Blade and all that, eh?!

My only ideas when I think of what a "blade storm" brings to mind would be along the lines of -

An AoE akin to World on Fire but not the same easy-mode toggle on a run forever and I'm pretty sure that DE looked into something more or less like this and decided that's not what they wanted.

Maybe a targeted AoE like Hydroid's Tempest Barrage but with something that looks a lot more "blade stormy" hehe (and with a lot better damage =p).

Or something that does a "radial discharge" burst of Slash AoE damage around Ash similar to something like Radial Javelin or Nova's Null Star with the Neutron Star augment mod. 

Maybe he could also "disincorporate" when he does it for just a moment with a brief invulnerability window like we see with Excal's Slash Dash, Atlas' Landslide, and Rhino Charge. This way he'd still have the immune to damage benefit he's getting currently but not have a full toggle on God-mode we can see on some Frames.

I think other cool powers in game that could be look to for inspiration are Ember's Fire Blast or Valkyr's Paralysis. 

Something with a quick burst of Slash damage (because that's a strong theme/niche for Ash) with either some form of damage mitigation or a stun.

Yeah I know I'm basically cribbing off of other frames powers, but that's the best I got, haha. And since these things are already in the game they seem to work already at least on some level.

Cheers!
~R~

[Prelizm]

We have seen a sneak peak at what could be the final decision of Blade Storm, so I would like to contribute my own idea of Blade Storm.

So I would like Blade Storm to equip Ash's Hidden Daggers, in which you can use them as melee instead which will scale of your equipped melee mods. But if you Right clicking on a target Ash will teleport to that enemy and killing him ofc, but if there are enemies around that target the clones will attack them as well. If not overkill, there should also be smoke spreading around Ash making him harder to target by enemies when he is running around in Blade Storm.

Kinda like a Combination of the sneak peaked version of Blade Storm and Valkyries Hysteria.

What do you guys think about my idea and if you have any comments or ideas, feel pleased to share.

Edited October 10, 2016 by Prelizm
Editing some minor spellings

[UrbanShade]

Its augment, that should be built around. Im not using any power strenght on Ash, other than Intensify, so my actual build is 160% range, 165% cast effectiveness, 143% duration, flow and vitality. Im found that build effective for that purposes. And, what is bad with 4 shurikens, that strips armour, of build around that? u know, banshee has same kind of augment, and her 1st ability arent fixed to 2 enemies. So, what is the problem?

[(PSN)DARK_PAN_THER]

Since Ash's theme is a stealth melee frame, maybe DE could make Ash's abilities

• Work with the stealth multiplier?  Teleport, shuriken, and bladestorm don't break stealth multiplier if either undetected or cloaked by smoke screen.Teleport works with stealth multiplier but not consistently.  
• have him work separately from his clones?  They fight while Ash fights with them (controlled by player).  It would eliminate player time sitting and watching a cinematic.  The other frames that use clones or a similar mechanic are Equinox, Nekros, Mirage, Loki, and I can't think of any others off the top of my head.  Equinox uses duality for offense, Nekros uses his shadows for tankiness with some some offense, Mirage uses hers as a damage multiplier (pure offense), and Loki uses his for utility.  
• utilize his wrist blades directly?  Ok so this one may need tweaking but this is just a brainstorm.  When the fourth ability is activated, Ash enters a mode with a set duration where the only weapon equipped are his wrist blades.  In this mode, Ash can mark enemies to send his shadows as well as freely execute finishers using his wrist blades.  An indicator if Ash is in this mode or not could be his body smoking (like in his idle animation but for the duration of the ability) or the smoke spreads from his right arm to his entire body (that would be awesome).

These are a few of my ideas for Ash.  I really want his rework to be great because Ash is my favorite frame but using bladestorm gets repetitive despite its effectiveness.  I spent the other day testing new ways to play Ash so I went to the level 85 arena on Sedna.  I equipped seeking shuriken and maximized duration for my smoke screen.  After using seeking shuriken, the enemies took about three times as much damage from my dark dual split swords.  However, using a fatal teleport with a 2x combo multiplier killed the enemies much faster and gave me no incentive to use seeking shuriken.  Idk I'm just spit balling at this point.  Plz leave some more suggestions that you think sound good or some revisions to mine.

[DasBlues]

I feel like DE just made this so called "rework" as a lazy fix to make the community shut up about ash complaints, I think DE should hold off the rework, focus of finishing War Within, then properly make a rework so that his abilities synergize together. As an avid ash (prime player) I feel like ash is so reliant on his bladestorm that literally everything else about him is overshadowed. DE should come up with a set of abilities that work kinda like saryn, where there's setup before the massive damage. Or maybe an exalted hidden blades weapon that can allow his other abilities to come into play here. Sorry for the rant, just my 2cents

[Volinus7]

New ult

Rasengan

pfff...no.....

Ultimate

Cutting onion

[(XBOX)SweatyPick3L]

Personally im happy with the change..hold 4 sweep right left then ash attacks once and then u are free to 1,1,3,3,1 with zenurik focus and arcane strike set your dps should be higher with new ash and i hope u can still attack the enemies my shadows are attacking.. looks faster paced as well. 

Edited October 10, 2016 by (XB1)FCastle74

[(XBOX)SweatyPick3L]

I also think BS should be a 3... So somthing like 1 shuriken , 2 teleport, 3 marked BS.,press 3 toggle on, press 3 activate his shadows kill a capped upto 10 enemies amd u are free to roam while the shadows handle business...his 4th should be a crazy akuma style air born explosive shurikens raining down on enemies. His 4th should be affected by duration, and range (diameters of the destruction) 

Edited October 11, 2016 by (XB1)FCastle74

[EngineSmith-Alexander]

instead of marking a guy couldn't I shoot him instead?  If a guy was standing next to me wouldn't he shoot him instead?  So to use it I am basically just standing in one place taking damage or invisible while painstakingly marking people. By the time I am done marking all the enemies will be dead from other people. This change is too clunky, will not work with squads, and heaven forbid using it if there is any lag at all.  Spamming 3 will be more effective.

[aerosoul1337]

11 hours ago, Thaylien said:

I find it very, very unlikely that this will make Bladestorm worse, just that it will make it more deliberate to cast on the things you want to actually kill, and not just something you sit on your backside for.

Actually, it is a lot worse if you watch the video and read some replies here. LoS nerf and slow targeting, slow execution.

You used to mark 18 targets instantly, you used to be able to attack the same target up to 17 times, you used to have 3 instances that attack at the same time, and up to 51 attacks total.

In the video, Rebecca had trouble marking more than 5 targets in a "solo play", despite Scott said it is bugged that it auto multi-tag your target at maximum number by default already, it is still slow and awkward.
And the problem is, you do the kill yourself (no shadow). If you mark 5 targets, you will have to see the animation 5 times.
The shadows only do the extra hit for the multi-marked enemies, so it will takes a lot more time than current bladestorm (3 instances attack).

But your targets will probably be killed by your teammates first.
Just Teleport and press E is a lot efficient, and deals more damage.

I thought the worse case is making it a stance, but this prototype is just so wrong.

Edited October 11, 2016 by aerosoul1337