DE, stop making Warframe such a casual game.

[PossiblyMG]

Just now, ZeroGenmu said:

You can do JV and LoR for arcanes with pugs if you want a challenge :p

There's a difference between a challenge and mental pain

[(XBOX)C0gnitive 0n3]

I hope the mission creator lets us use up to 9999 enemies. That would give me the "Horde Mode" I have LONG wished for. To avoid anyone in my clan from needing Wukong, Ivara or Valkyr to cheese through it; I'll make the enemies level 60 (with no scaling).

[--Q--Kyl0Ren]

22 minutes ago, Maseguad_il_Belo said:

Since SotR, this game has become depressingly easy and any Post-DEAC content is uninteresting, unrewarding, or too easy to cheese with certain frames. 

And what is the "DIY mission creator" gonna do? Nothing. It's going to be the same problem. Either people are going to be sweeping through those missions without a challenge, or people will be continuously cheesing those missions with frames like ivara or wukong.

So how do you fix this game from not being as easy as a kindergarten puzzle?

 I feel ya bro....lets wait and see if they bring by endless missions for multiple prime part farming. Maybe bring back the void, a new raid etc etc. Wait for TWW. It might change stuff ( with the current timeline id say 2 more years for TWW XDXD)

[Misgenesis]

Recent frame changes would indicate they intend to keep what little challenge the game has. But then Vacuum got made universal and its a major step back.

I dont think i have hope for WF becoming like it used to be anymore.

[radastir]

.

Edited October 10, 2016 by radastir
obsolete

[Midrib]

This game was never hard sorry to disappoint You.
Doesn't matter if its a trial, a 1 hour t4 mission, most missions consisted of You cheesing Your enemies with debuffs or CC or stuff like trinity's old damage reduction.

Not even trying to sound edgy, I don't have the best aim skills or decision making, But literally the only difficulty I experienced in my 2k+ hours in this game was when my friends trolled me into a T4 survival when I had just started.

[sidmarks1]

Parts of the game can be difficult, for example some solo sorties and I'm sure as are some missions for newer players. I also think that difficulty is very subjective and what you may find easy I could struggle with. Achieving is sometimes good for the soul despite the ease of attainment. If I want brain ache I'll play Dark Souls and believe me I want an easy life now. DE please don't nerf (is that the right word?) difficulty levels.

[--Q--XFA]

I'm just hoping that they've been doing this because of the the War Within. 

Also, I agree with some of your points OP(to lazy to elaborate). Anyway, I tend to be more creative in this game now-a-days while waiting for new challenges/content like exploring warframes that i don't normally use and experimenting on unusual builds and loadouts (something like that lol).

[Prelizm]

I can understand your frustration on lack of Challenge with maxed equipment and such, but if DE decides to balance/nerf/rework these "cheese" weapons and frames or Enemies and such, then there will always be a bunch of people complaining. Mostly because there is a big number of players that want challenge but also doesn't want change and want better gear all the time.

Endgame in the form of Survival and Defense still exists, except that there is no Prime rewards, but in my opinion if you are in "endgame" you don't need any type of reward for a challenge.

But my best tip for you is to take a break, I reached endgame in Warframe many times and then I usually take long breaks so the game can get multiple new content so that when I start playing, it wont just last me a few days. Taking a longer break means more content when you start playing and hopefully more of a challenge. 

I'm not saying that Warframe is perfect and definitely needs tweaks and such, but Devstreams usually answers most of the questions.

Edited October 11, 2016 by Prelizm
Removed unnecessary text

[DEADSHOT456]

35 minutes ago, Maseguad_il_Belo said:

But again, what's the incentive

Challenge? You are complaining about the game not being a challenge, so make a challenge out of it and that right there, is your incentive.

Play a Sortie without mods, you get the same rewards but with the greater amount of challenge that you needed.

Understand this - This game was never a challenging game. This might be because the developers did not envision it to be such. Maybe they envisioned it to be a more casual approach to fun and it succeeded. Even I like it due to its casual nature. Therefore, I am against your idea of making it challenging. You need challenge? Make it yourself or go play Dark Souls. You are no one to ask the developer to just change their core idea of their game, especially, when it is as successful as Warframe.

 

[PossiblyMG]

1 minute ago, DEADSHOT456 said:

Play a Sortie without mods, you get the same rewards but with the greater amount of challenge that you needed.

>Implying that sorties are even worth doing at this point

[Sarge_Tarmus]

Yeah, I think that they should give us sumthyn like hardmode with higher level enemies. They should also do something with AI because a lot of enemies has IQ like chickens from Skyrim.

[DEADSHOT456]

Just now, Maseguad_il_Belo said:

>Implying that sorties are even worth doing at this point

So basically, it is the same old burnout whining?

Dude play some other game. Go out in the real world. If you are bored from Warframe and you feel Sortie are not worth it, just like I do, play something else. Do something in real life, I am doing the same.

Just because I am bored due to lack of updates in Warframe, I do not come here to whine about the difficulty, because by now, I have realized the fact that this game was made with casual players in mind. And I like it. Among other serious games, I like the mindless killings and the OPness in Warframe every now and then.

The idea here is simple - If you do not like a casual game, don't play it. That goes for every other casual game, not just Warframe. But don't have the right to ruin it for those who chose the game for its casual nature.

Should I go to Dark Souls Forums and ask them to reduce the difficulty to casual levels? Of course not! I will play the game how it was supposed to be.

[OniDax]

2 hours ago, Maseguad_il_Belo said:

Is this a sandbox game though? No, I shouldn't be creating content myself, because there is no incentive to do so- no reward at all.               

So you'll only do something if there is a reward? How sad. Do you always need an incentive to enjoy something? Do you need a reward to eat something you like? Do you need a reward to spend time with someone you love? You can enjoy an experience without having some reward-based incentive.

With all due respect, I think players like you are holding DE back. DE will never be encouraged to flesh out their game more (making it more substantive) when their player base is only clamoring for more rewards and items. At some point, Warframe has to be more than just a game that offers rewards. Its gameplay has to be better. It has to be more involved, a little bit more complex, a little more engaging. The gameplay itself has to become more satisfying, so that the most important appeal of any game mode is the gameplay itself, not the rewards that come with that gameplay. The gameplay itself must be satisfying and enjoyable, and the biggest draw to the game, and the rewards must be the icing on the cake.

That's the only way for Warframe to truly retain its players. That's the only way that DE can even begin to understand how to add endgame to Warframe. Because "endgame" will never be a thing in Warframe if the gameplay itself isn't satisfying. And we really can't say the gameplay itself is satisfying when people will only play if there is a reward-based incentive to play. For players to remain invested in Warframe, something about the gameplay has got to be the primary appeal of the game. That's just the way human nature works. It's the same way with people working a job. Once people have enough money to take care of their needs and some of their wants - i.e. once they have everything they need and want - money stops being an incentive for them to work. Those people are motivated by something else, whether it's the people they're working with (i.e. the work environment) or some cause that they believe in (i.e. their continued purpose for playing). Ultimate satisfaction in what we do is always going to end up being deeper than the rewards that we get out of it.

For highly popular and successful games like COD or Battlefield or Battlefront, it's the "sweet" headshot, quickscope kill, nade kill, sliding kill, knife kill, "noob-tube" kill. jump kill. It's taking out a player jet with your rifle on the ground, or with your rocket launcher. It's being at the top of the scoreboard at the end of a match. For those games (whether you like them or not, they are extremely popular and extremely financially successful), reward items such as item drops aren't the things that are satisfying. The gameplay itself is satisfying, and that's what keeps bringing players back to those games.

I'm not saying Warframe should be a copy of COD or Battlefield or Battlefront (although it could use similar movement animations), but when it comes to Warframe, there has to be something deeper that drives satisfaction with the game. For some players, that's fighting high-level enemies through sorties or it's coordinating with other players in Trials, or it's fashion frame. But even in these instances, it's not the core gameplay itself that is driving satisfaction. I'm sure there are plenty of people who are, for the moment, satisfied with the gameplay (probably new players, more so), but when you have veterans pleading for more endgame content, then there's a problem. Because ultimately, they aren't staying satisfied. Sure, every player eventually gets burnt out with a game, but when the player's satisfaction only comes from maxing out and collecting every item in the game (e.g. the collector), or from doing literally everything there is to do in the game (e.g. the completionist), such that when the veteran asks for more endgame content, and clarifies that by asking for more new items, then there's a problem with what Warframe offers in terms of satisfying gameplay, because the gameplay itself isn't the focus, especially when you don't see the veteran asking for more fleshed out, more involved, more engaging gameplay.

DE could do a great deal of good by revisiting their core game mechanics (movement animations, gunplay mechanics - movement and aiming with guns, melee mechanics and systems, and enemy AI) and game modes and making them more engaging, by making them a bit more involved in what they require of players, how many objectives are a part of those missions, and how enemies behave in those missions. DE could do a great deal of good reworking some of their environments, making them more immersive (Steve's shown some promising stuff with volumetric lighting and foliage mesh generation), like Earth (making it overgrown with foliage) and Venus (making it more snowy, less visibility, etc) and the Corpus ship tileset (making it like the Corpus Obelisks on Eris and Europa) and the derelict (giving it a major graphical update in terms of texture resolution). If DE, post-TWW, would refocus on their core game, then they could improve Warframe's core gameplay and make it a bit more satisfying, so that the main thing drawing players to the game, and keeping players in the game, would be the gameplay itself and not just the reward incentives.

Edited October 10, 2016 by AntoineFlemming

[Rawbeard]

it's this time of the month again, isn't it? bubble boys screaming about their bubble being too safe, but unwilling to leave it.

[MumblesMcphatty]

Even the so-called 'endgame' prior to SotR was pretty damn casual. Most high level strategies involved doing very little beyond watching ability counters and trying not to fall asleep.

[Soketsu]

I don't know, many players offer you solutions, like using crappy stuff/ no stuff

or taking a break... you wont find any challenge here, and you will never, AI can't overcome us, unless we making them overcheated ...

but in any case DE will not and should not change their game for you

Edited October 10, 2016 by Soketsu

[schilds]

It does seem strange that people could make the game difficult, and endless, yet choose not to do so then complain about it, but I do understand where they're coming from.

 

1) People want a challenge, but

2) They want to put in their full effort, making as much use of their skill + knowledge + equipment as possible. No holding back.

3) They want to feel it has some purpose. Whether that's recognition or some other reward that matches the effort invested.

 

Endless void missions farming primes fulfilled those conditions. Stay in long enough and you get a challenge, even for people whose skill/knowledge/equipment trivializes content on the starmap. As for reward, the longer you stayed in, the more efficient use you were making of one key. Personally I think only ever bothered (when I bothered) to go for 60 minutes, because I'd rather just go farm another key. The nice thing was different people could decide where they wanted to stop.

 

Yes, you can still do 1 to 3 above, but not all at once.

 

I don't know what a good solution is and just to toss a random idea (other than leaderboards) out there: how about have endless void missions reward you with a tradeable, fractal, endo sculpture. The longer you stay in, this more detail it assembles, and the more endo it's worth. Defense missions could just have you defending the sculpture as it assembles. Survival could have you run around collecting endo to fuel it's growth. Interception could have... no idea :-P.

[God_is_a_Cat_Girl]

While I agree that lately the "community wants this" isn't really making the game any better but rather more casual, I don't completely agree with the OP.

 

Rather, I see certain areas of the game as too simple minded, but lately I just don't trust the community at all, kinda of lost faith in the "nice" community that we "had", so any change might as well get tons of mindless and needless flak. Exterminate for example, for me those are but a chore, oh boy here we go again, kill (x)xx enemies. It doesn't take very long until you can easily get through them without any trouble, you don't need maxed equipment either, the mission itself is so simple that it just doesn't really had much to the game right now, but then even when things like Bursa, who are just there to tell you "hack alarms or it will get really hard", people still cry endlessly about it, when all they need is to avoid the alarms and hack them if needed (of course excluding missions where you can't do so), and all the problems with the Bursa aren't even their problem, it's problems that already exist and do need to be looked at (mostly armor and blast damage weaponry), but God forbid one appearing on an exterminate mission.

The thing is, unless something like a Bursa appears, 100% of the exterminate mission is but trash mobs and even heavies are trash mobs when you can easily single them out because 1st heavy units aren't that heavy, they are mostly cheese, 2nd they are overused and end up not acting like a heavy unit but at some point it's a bunch of units that will cheese you out of existence, heavy gunners are kinda of alright, they just need to stop being common and instead get other units help them out instead of rushing us individually (why is this shield guy rushing me half across to bash me instead of protecting other units?). But imagine they change exterminate to have like a mini boss or 2 through it or a specialized squad that you can't just stand in the middle of the map shooting everything around you because they can't kill you and instead have to outsmart them or single them out? Oh boy, you can see a lot of people unhappy because they no longer can rush through it and that it "ruins the flow of the game".

 

However, it is to note that Warframe suffers an issue which is excessive freedom. This is, if you play MMORPG for example, you depend on stats and gear, stats increase with level, gear many times can only be used when you are over a certain level but usually you can only find that gear when you are near or at that level anyway. Since your progression is predictable, this is, the dev will know more or less which level you will be and how strong or weak you will be when you reach a certain area, that everything in that area is in a level that you can beat but that it can also be challenging at it. See, by limiting freedom they create challenge.

What happens in Warframe is that no stat besides ability ranks, HP, shields and energy increases. You don't get more damage from progression, not directly, you get more damage from customization, and because customization leaves you free to do what you want, it's hard to make content and predict how strong players will be at specific points, which is why enemies like the Bursa feel or can be too hard for new players, as their stats increase was left to them and aren't pre-arranged. This level of customization is very hard to make content for that is beatable and challenging, and also hard to balance, which then also makes some weapons feel... worthless (if you balance end game for prime/variant gear, most non prime gear/variant will struggle really hard to keep up, if they can, because there's a power gap not only between variants but some weapons just can't get any far, even with our freedom).

The result is that everything either feels too easy or too cheesy.

I wouldn't mind if the easiest mission types got a push to either be slightly harder or not as simple (Hijack for example is interesting but too simple, jump on a cart, done), but when people pull out riots about just anything and there's pretty much extremists groups (not as in terrorism, but as in only taking part on the extremities of the argument and never try to see both sides or even get close to the middle) head butting each others, and even most "content creators" now are nothing more than that, it's just... disappointing and really turns you off from writing and contribute with constructive criticism, because you easily see the other party being more rewarded for less effort (because apparently not supporting your claim with an argument is constructive? I really don't get how you are constructive without an argument but instead with a rant, but oh well).

[Rakosta_Kai]

2 hours ago, Maseguad_il_Belo said:

Is this a sandbox game though? No, I shouldn't be creating content myself, because there is no incentive to do so- no reward at all.               

...Then don't.

The mode isn't really made for you.

...It's made for the folks who have been requesting it for years.

That might sound casual to you... But this isn't a hardcore game to begin with.

FWIW, this game isn't an actual MMO and doesn't really fall under themepark or sandbox strictures so your logic doesn't really apply in this case either.

The good news is that the game isn't forcing you to take part in this game mode so you can ignore it at your leisure.

 

[PH03N1XUS]

Warframe's known to me as the grind for catalysts and reactors .-.

[xXx_mtv_xXx]

Casual means more players. F2P games rely on more players.

[Sasquatchias]

8 minutes ago, God_is_a_Cat_Girl said:

While I agree that lately the "community wants this" isn't really making the game any better but rather more casual, I don't completely agree with the OP.

 

Rather, I see certain areas of the game as too simple minded, but lately I just don't trust the community at all, kinda of lost faith in the "nice" community that we "had", so any change might as well get tons of mindless and needless flak. Exterminate for example, for me those are but a chore, oh boy here we go again, kill (x)xx enemies. It doesn't take very long until you can easily get through them without any trouble, you don't need maxed equipment either, the mission itself is so simple that it just doesn't really had much to the game right now, but then even when things like Bursa, who are just there to tell you "hack alarms or it will get really hard", people still cry endlessly about it, when all they need is to avoid the alarms and hack them if needed (of course excluding missions where you can't do so), and all the problems with the Bursa aren't even their problem, it's problems that already exist and do need to be looked at (mostly armor and blast damage weaponry), but God forbid one appearing on an exterminate mission.

The thing is, unless something like a Bursa appears, 100% of the exterminate mission is but trash mobs and even heavies are trash mobs when you can easily single them out because 1st heavy units aren't that heavy, they are mostly cheese, 2nd they are overused and end up not acting like a heavy unit but at some point it's a bunch of units that will cheese you out of existence, heavy gunners are kinda of alright, they just need to stop being common and instead get other units help them out instead of rushing us individually (why is this shield guy rushing me half across to bash me instead of protecting other units?). But imagine they change exterminate to have like a mini boss or 2 through it or a specialized squad that you can't just stand in the middle of the map shooting everything around you because they can't kill you and instead have to outsmart them or single them out? Oh boy, you can see a lot of people unhappy because they no longer can rush through it and that it "ruins the flow of the game".

 

However, it is to note that Warframe suffers an issue which is excessive freedom. This is, if you play MMORPG for example, you depend on stats and gear, stats increase with level, gear many times can only be used when you are over a certain level but usually you can only find that gear when you are near or at that level anyway. Since your progression is predictable, this is, the dev will know more or less which level you will be and how strong or weak you will be when you reach a certain area, that everything in that area is in a level that you can beat but that it can also be challenging at it. See, by limiting freedom they create challenge.

What happens in Warframe is that no stat besides ability ranks, HP, shields and energy increases. You don't get more damage from progression, not directly, you get more damage from customization, and because customization leaves you free to do what you want, it's hard to make content and predict how strong players will be at specific points, which is why enemies like the Bursa feel or can be too hard for new players, as their stats increase was left to them and aren't pre-arranged. This level of customization is very hard to make content for that is beatable and challenging, and also hard to balance, which then also makes some weapons feel... worthless (if you balance end game for prime/variant gear, most non prime gear/variant will struggle really hard to keep up, if they can, because there's a power gap not only between variants but some weapons just can't get any far, even with our freedom).

The result is that everything either feels too easy or too cheesy.

I wouldn't mind if the easiest mission types got a push to either be slightly harder or not as simple (Hijack for example is interesting but too simple, jump on a cart, done), but when people pull out riots about just anything and there's pretty much extremists groups (not as in terrorism, but as in only taking part on the extremities of the argument and never try to see both sides or even get close to the middle) head butting each others, and even most "content creators" now are nothing more than that, it's just... disappointing and really turns you off from writing and contribute with constructive criticism, because you easily see the other party being more rewarded for less effort (because apparently not supporting your claim with an argument is constructive? I really don't get how you are constructive without an argument but instead with a rant, but oh well).

Personally while I wouldn't mind seeing some easier mission be made a little harder, I do think for the long run there has to be some sort of major change in something to truly create content at a certain player's level without screwing over anyone newer / less-equipped than them.

As it is right now you can and will have players running things like a Synoid Simulor built with enough damage to one-shot almost anything that isn't a boss or ridiculously-scaled enemy running throughout all levels of a Star Map throwing a wrench into things by blitzing through content not made to handle their power - and currently CAN'T be made to handle their power as it'd screw with everyone else not running similar loadouts, especially newer players.

These same players then converge as a vocal minority and complain of the game being too easy, with enough pressure causing DE to scale-up various levels of content to new heights that again, screw over anyone else that isn't running a min-maxed build to one-shot almost anything.

[Guest]

3 hours ago, Maseguad_il_Belo said:

Since SotR, this game has become depressingly easy and any Post-DEAC content is uninteresting, unrewarding, or too easy to cheese with certain frames. 

And what is the "DIY mission creator" gonna do? Nothing. It's going to be the same problem. Either people are going to be sweeping through those missions without a challenge, or people will be continuously cheesing those missions with frames like ivara or wukong.

So how do you fix this game from not being as easy as a kindergarten puzzle?

i see many bigmouthed postings after all this whining posts, didnt know that a late delivery gives DE so much information, i have to keep that tricks in mind if they wouldnt be so manipulative ... LOL ?

and the true postings or development get eaten by another wave of "kindergarden"-thoughts, ideas and postings ... just for making it clear and again, not every player is st*p*d enough ...

and the truth finally is ? whatever science without heart and lifeexpirience is for the toilet ... flush it, DE, flush it, with "war within" ... soon !

Edited October 10, 2016 by Guest

[Hypernaut1]

I hate the suggestion "well don't use mods". Some of us want a challenge using the system given to us to the best of our ability