[The Index] General Feedback

[PapaMakaka]

This event is so ridiculously high-level and stupidly difficult currently that the Endurance run is borderline impossible. It is impossible to survive any shots from an enemy after turning in 10 points in Endurance, even with a full Bless and Wukong's 2 going. It's obscene. 

[Chroia]

Played through the event as a maxed out player.
Was pleasantly surprised by the relative lack of cheese.

Biggest feedback is: Orbiting Points aren't sufficiently distinct from 'waiting-to-be-picked-up' Points.

Also, scaling past 200 requires tank frames or a precon group. As per usual.

Will play through it with a less well geared loadout sometime later.

Edited October 21, 2016 by Chroia

[KoshLovesYou]

2 hours ago, ssh83 said:

 

Problem 1: In Endurance, enemy levels don’t increase until capitalization happens. So players can bank up on points with level 50 enemies and then turn-in all at once to skip difficulty scaling. With 4 players all doing this, you can easily jump from 0 to 100 with relative ease. (or more importantly, jumping from 50 to 150 with ease and not needing to deal with lvl 200+ enemies to get to 150).

Do NOT just remove this completely. Rather, it is cool to allow players to have this strategy, but there needs to be passive time-based enemy scaling in Endurance on top of score-based scaling. Maybe also cap the number of points one can hold to 12. (2 unit of margin on top of maximum bonus).

 

Problem 2: Difficulty fluctuates wildly based on enemy team’s draft. Competitively, this automatically means cheapskate strategy of restarting game until they get an easy draft before going for long haul.

Instead, endurance should increase the size of enemy team until all the enemy types are present. This allows randomness for regular play in early game, but in long-duration competitive endurance, the difficulty will equalize in the long run. So one team’s 200 point finish is equally respectable as another team’s 200 point finish.

 

Problem 3: The way personal point quota works is anti-cooperative. It is extremely easy for good players to screw other people over by getting to the victory quota (intentionally or unintentionally). It is also near impossible for all four players to get 20 points when the game ends after around 45. Current system makes players feel like losers even when the team won. It encourage player to solo the event and it’s a griefer paradise at worst case. To maintain a positive community, there should not be system that create unavoidable animosity between players.

 

Problem 4: Betting reward vs difficulty scaling is broken for Endurance. Linear increase in reward is not fitting with the doubling difficulty. Lower challenge requirement to 20, 35, 50. If requirement is changed to team-based, then it can be 40, 60, 80.

 

Problem 5: AI’s current tendency to hang around with points is good default behavior to allow player time to catch up to them. However, when the players have stronger and stronger lead, the AI should be more and more aggressive at capitalizing points quickly.

Out of all of the reviews posted, this one is one where I'd basically be saying "Ditto". Sums up my own feelings/experiences spot on.

Problem 3 is the biggest issue here, frankly. Why did you pick the one PvP mode to emulate that is actively 'self-reward' focused for a new team focused game mode, DE? Wasn't that pretty counter-intuitive from the start? If the intent for the Clan Goals is gonna be personal points, you're gonna have major salt or major solo exploiting going on.

I get wanting to have PvP modes to keep the game fresh, but: You're ideally a co-op game at heart, remember? Try to remember.

Problem 2 is also a major 'address this' issue, as well, though perhaps more easily addressed: Make the difficulty based on the number of Anyo agents around rather than a sudden jump in resistances. The game mode is already annoyingly mostly focused on just trying to FIND any of them for chunks of time and is pretty boring due to not being engaging, and in turn the issues that come up with Problem 3.

Edited October 21, 2016 by KoshLovesYou
Wanted to highlight decrease in co-op feel in PvP-adopted Index game mode.

[(PSN)RenovaKunumaru]

Didn't find it fun and the mods are not enticing. 

The mods are for weapons that are terrible. The medikit mod is less effective than meleeing an enemy for health to companion.

I don't even believe this event will hold anyone's interest for the week it is in preview, yet alone after.

 

[(PSN)General_Favel]

Is it co-op modding, if so does Rage and equilibrium work  or PVP only mods? Can you use gear(Pads) do champions use Dispell?, and do Void offerings from Bursa event turn Bursas to your team  n still drop orbs for killing it?

[(PSN)General_Favel]

39 minutes ago, PapaMakaka said:

This event is so ridiculously high-level and stupidly difficult currently that the Endurance run is borderline impossible. It is impossible to survive any shots from an enemy after turning in 10 points in Endurance, even with a full Bless and Wukong's 2 going. It's obscene. 

Sounds like the trophy will go to a proper clan. Not meant as insult to you or yor clan

[(PSN)General_Favel]

Aside from bugs the difficulty n team aspect sound spot on. Run with your Clan n they wont steal points, considering theres not a tightness on time.

[AkiraHansJuris]

I really like the "conclave style" challenges, Rathuum was great, and I'm looking forward to The Index. I may be misunderstanding the mechanics, in which case I'm most likely to blame for these complaints. That being said, I have a few issues with how The Index seems to work at the moment... 

I like the game mode, and risk/reward of collecting the green orbs, but in its current incarnation I strongly dislike this event.

1) Collecting and Banking:

I feel that the risk/reward system is completely undercut by the other mechanics. I would love to bank my rewards, but it seems that banking them (at least in the normal, non-endurance mode) adds to your team's total score, and the game ends when you reach 50 points. A goal of 20 individual points is nearly impossible to achieve because it requires at least two of your four team mates to do nothing, and with every batch of points I turn in under 20, the team inches closer to someone ending the game on a whim before I can recover the rest. I understand if the idea was to encourage a sort of "Competitive Leaderboard" among players on your team, but in doing so, it has become impossible for less-skilled players (myself included) to ever reach an individual goal. I understand that not everything has to be easy, but if your squad is at least remotely competent, you will never reach the individual goal.

One strategy to combat this would be to collect 20 orbs, and not bank them until everyone on your team has 20 as well. This way, you could ensure that the round won't end until everyone is ready to complete their individual goal, but with the match immediately ending at 50, one of your four squad-mates is SOL. Unless I am mistaken, and the orbs you are currently carrying are count towards your individual goal, it seems as though there is no possible way for all members of your team to achieve the bonus objective, no matter how well they perform. 

2) Encouraging Kill-Stealing:

Players are encouraged to steal credit for kills they did not score. It is far too easy for allies to swoop in and take your points, especially if you play with moderate to long range weapons. The clearly dominant strategy is to use nothing but melee to both stun-lock the enemies, and prevent so-called allies from taking credit for your kills, banking them, and ending the game. There have been several matches where the round has ended and one player has 20+ kills, and 2 points, while others have dozens of points, and few to no kills. The "bounty" mechanic that arises from dying while carrying orbs is interesting, and I enjoy taking down a target who has recently killed and looted team-mate, but the frustration of watching an ally turn the corner and take 20 points from an enemy you killed is overwhelming.

This is compounded by the addition of Tenno Specters. After six or so rounds of allies doing nothing, and ending the game with 10+ points, I decided to play solo, which is when I discovered that you can not escape the kill-stealing hell that is Quake 3 Arena The Index.


I really enjoy "conclave-style" PvE! I love what The Index is shaping up to be! I enjoy the psuedo capture-the-flag style gameplay, and I like the new unique enemies, but in its current incarnation, I just can't help but find it frustrating. I may not be the best player, but I'm certainly not the worst, and I find it a little frustrating that the only thing preventing a 3 year, 2.5K hour player from completing an objective is that the rest of the squad is competent. I like the idea of The Index, I like what it's got going on, but I got my 100 points, and I can't say I have any desire to play it again in this incarnation.

[Autongnosis]

Yeah, definitely solve the problem with personal targets and team play. Specters are actually pretty nice on solo, and do a lot of nice stuff, which only compounds the tendency of avoiding killsteals by going solo.

Oh, and i want the double hek the Frost specter wields. NOW :D

On to the mode itself, i only tried a couple of runs, but so far the only problem i found is that when your hp get reduced by holding points, dropping them will get your maximum hp back to where it was, but you'll stay at the hp you had before... Like, if you go down to 60 hp because of the reduction, then drop the points, you go from 60/60 to 60/300 (for example). Wouldn't it be more intuitive if it went back to the same % it was before, as in 60/60 -> 300/300 , 50/60 -> 250/300 etc... That, or massively buff health orbs, which can work as well.

 

EDIT: also the mod for Tetra is SO misleading, the picture is of a Supra! It got me hoping again for a second .-. That should be easy to fix :)

Edited October 21, 2016 by Autongnosis

[Aspari]

Negative modifiers aren't any fun. If I have to bullet jump just to be able to do any sort of catching up with the rest of the team on such a small map, something's wrong there. 

 

Other than that it's going to need the Void Relic treatment to make it exciting, although since we're going with the economy terminology theme they'd probably be called Bonds. Top tier Corpus gear (weapons, armor sets, skins, etc.) or even a new Warframe as prizes to be earn sounds really appealing. Otherwise if it's just for credits and niche mods it's a really easy gamble to take away from, and that's just boring.

 

Good luck with this one. I hope that it succeeds with the community.

Edited October 21, 2016 by Aspari

[Rhekemi]

I like all Rathuum arenas. They offer a very (how should I put it?) pure, yes, pure game mode, in my opinion. The enemies are tough but beatable. I don't cheese (in most cases I can't). The sense of my warframe's own mortality creates enough stakes for me to want to win. I only play for Endo and the fun. It's fun solo, and fun with a team. When with a team, we work toward a common goal.

I wanted to like the Index in a similar fashion. So far, it's just not as satisfying.

I like the new enemies overall, the arena's are good, the specter's are actually decent buddies, and the announcer's interesting (could do with more Nef trying to rally his peeps).

What didn't I like?

1. The enemies (I have not played Endurance yet) are too easy. The problem isn't me one-shotting, it's the fact that they don't even pose a challenge. The only units that tried to give me a bit o' trouble were the Bursas + that laser fence.
    
2. Whether in a team or solo, we have two goals now: survive and kill all enemies, and collect the most Index Points. It isn't fun. I can see how the idea seemed crazy-fun: Compete against your own team! Greed is good! But it just doesn't feel fun. We might as well be trying to kill the Anyo Corps and each other as well. At least then stealing my Index Points (or me yours) will feel more justified. Then it's truly every Tenno for themselves. This half-team mode, half-me-first thing is just strange. (No, I do not actually want PVP in this mode. PVP is the devil. I rebuke thee.) It needs to be one or the other's my point: an arena that makes us band together and kick a$$ or every Tenno for themselves.
    
3. Higher rewards and bonuses. More kills, no deaths, no points lost/stolen, no damage taken, something, anything. There should be more room for credit boosts.
    
4. The wager system is lackluster. I thought it would be much more risky or interesting than this. I'd have loved to see an in-mission tracker of your rewards or credits. The more you play, the more you bank, and the system remembers what you've banked. The higher you climb without cashing out, the bigger your credit pile grows. Cash out on your next win, or press your luck? That isn't wagering, I know, but it's still a form of gambling. You're betting you can win that next higher round. 

That's all I can think of for now. I look forward to seeing how overpowered the Endurance gang is, unless it's nerfed before I can get a chance. I'll be sad, honestly.

[Racter]

My only real complaint is that you can't just extract when you finish your point cap solo. Literally tabbed out while this ticks down so I can leave. Having to actively fight your team for points is probably bad, as well. I will only run this solo or with one other when this goes live to avoid feeling like a huge $&*^. The risk > reward caps are low, especially for the amount of time it takes to farm 100 points. Additionally, because these mobs don't drop endo, I don't see it having any real appeal after this weekend. Rathuum is still played regularly to farm endo, because it's the best place in the game for your time. Rewarding, semi-difficult. Now, it is okay to have this reward only credits, but Hieracon is faster and easier than even the 25 point bet. The wagers need increased to better reflect the time spent IMO.

Overall, pretty solid, having a lot of fun running the endless variant right now. Hope it sticks around this time (and Rathuum's returns).

Side note/bug: The tonfa bro killed me during the immunity period of Iron Skin, multiple times. Unless he has a dispel I'm unaware of, this should be impossible.

 

EDIT: Temporary work around for farmers. Bring a self damage weapon, cap your points, farm another bunch of points and end yourself next to the turn in. The Corpus bots will pick all the orbs up for turn in, which eats away at the timer.

Edited October 21, 2016 by Racter

[Riot_Inducer]

I've played through the 10 games for the standard rewards for the event, have not tried endurance mode yet but here are my thoughts thus far.

After Rathuum I was pleasantly surprised to find no stupid cheese coming from these enemies. Their abilities are dangerous but telegraphed and there's no @(*()$ insta-kill drones to speak of so my enjoyment of this mode is already about 1000x more than Rathuum.

Speaking of the enemies I really enjoy a lot of their creative abilities, especially the one that masquerades as one of your team. Very cool to run into your doppelganger occasionally! That said there is a very real gap in difficulty between the enemies, specifically the raptor ones vs the crewman ones. The raptors are large targets but can often loiter in unexpected areas of the map and are much tankier and pack a stronger offensive punch with large AoEs than any of the crewman enemies. This creates wildly fluctuating difficulty based on the enemy team composition. A match against a raptor, a bursa and a hyena is a much much harder fight than a match against 2 crewman and 2 moas. I'm not entirely sure what can be done about this other possibly buffing the crewman and moa health so they aren't so much easier than the heavies to take down. 

My main other concern with the mode is that a good portion of the match seems to be spent trying to find the enemies. I don't know why this is really but it feels like you've really got to go hunting for the enemies whereas in Rathuum you're lucky to be able to catch your breath. I'm not sure if it's the maps or the enemies themselves but it's definitely detracting from the mode that you rarely feel pressured by the enemies.

As for the credit betting aspect of the mode, I think it's quite good as it is. It fits with the corpus theme. If you take a larger bet you have to be more cutthroat about points and while some people won't like that I think it's very on point for the theme of the game mode. I personally wouldn't change a thing here other than possibly increasing the credit bets in the first tier of the mode. 3-15k credits is small time by the time one unlocks the arena on neptune.     

[-IlKenpachi-]

BEAUTIFUL! the challenge to the clan, the goal should focus on the difficulty to collect a personal score max points

 

[radastir]

- The Index is fun, ty for the event, but the ninja-loot-mechanic makes me go solo (even space ninjas shouldn't do that to their team mates).

- Nekros' Desecrate seems not to increase drop chances of the new mods.

Edited October 21, 2016 by radastir

[Taaow]

Best change that this mode could have would be to make the points instanced when they initially drop.  As it currently stands everyone rolls around stealing points from people making it impossible to reach your goals.  Additionally consider reducing the number of knockdown abilities that the enemies have.  Finally the spawn rate of enemies or points needs to be tweaked as it is extremely difficult to make the goal amount at higher levels. 

[WhyNotBro]

As a PvP hater i didn't like the event at first :D Then i reached The Endurance...aaand yeah, i liked it! Mostly because of the level of hardcore and one simple fact. I do not have to steal all green thingies around me. First two parts i passed as fast as possible because there was no profit for me, but the race against my team :D
I hope the resources DE throwed into PvP aspect of this game will be consumed by The Index, at least at some point. I don't like Lunaro, neither PvP. However i see deep potential of The Index.

1) I've met the situatians where nobody has won. One guy throwed 10 points, another one throwed some too and boom...total score has been completed. Without a reward. I don't know, for me it seems just wrong. I think the final score number must be increased.

2) The way how players supose to achieve the goal is wrong too. One person kills like 20 mobs, another one 0 so in the end will win the one who was tricky enough to steal as many green thingies as possible. Not good. At all :D

3) Rewards. Just...what a sadness. Sure, i realize this is the thing. Be good enough otherwise you will lose your money. So i think it is a question of balance of achieving the final score + the way how we earn points. I think total kills must be counted too. Probably something else :D

I have a question btw :D Every event brought an unique weapon. But not this one. Why?:D

P.S. No matter how i liked the endurance part, will i keep playing this? Nope. Warframe is a PvE game. We came here to kill hordes, to loot tonns, to collect as many things as we can (and a little more). Anyway i will not consider PvP, Lunaro, Index as a worthable content.

Edited October 21, 2016 by WhyNotBro
Because i want so!

[Nazzami]

The Final tier of the Index need a good balancing as lv 250 enemies is plain stupid and 100 self points is far too many it basically a 0 reward credit dump

[TasteVengence]

What i think should happen to The Index

1:If you kill a mob allies cant steal your orb,gem,point things for a small period of time...

2:Mod drop rates needs to be increased i did 7 solo runs and didnt get a single mod only got mods when i went into a public group and everyone took Nekros

3:Its really repetitive same two maps same group of enemys

and the biggest one of them all 4:The annoying specters that are on your team there needs to be a option were your alone like rathum...

Edited October 21, 2016 by TasteVengence

[Solar-Flare68]

As a non-PvP player, I didn't really like this event when I first went into it, but now I see it as a kind of nice alternative. I don't really want to talk about the mechanics, everyone here seems to have already covered that really well. Just a few little points that I noticed and wanted to briefly mention:

•  Is it just me, or does the cephalon sound a bit like Fizzy from Sunset Overdrive? Doesn't seem like Warframe's style. I know most cephalons are in the universe are 'unstable'. The tone of his voice and the frequency of his lines make it strangely reminiscent. 
• I do like the idea of The Index, it fits with the Corpus rather well. Also, why does Darvo come into the scheme of things right in the middle with no clearly announced association with The Index at the start of the event? He is usually involved with Corpus events though. A little more explanation would be... nice.
• The Index points on the ground are a bit hard to see, especially if you have 6 or so of them floating around you, if they were perhaps larger like the affinity drops this wouldn't be much of a problem.

Overall, this event is kind of awesome. Great for credits if you don't have a squad to run Hieracon or other missions for credits. Great job so far, keep up the good work:)

[Stonehenge]

Okay, so, shortly for now :

- New ennemies are cool. As for Grineers Executioners, i'd like to see more of them in regular missions. (By the way : The Sap Comba, Nul Sap, Nul Scrambus ...why the heck don't we see them more often in missions ?)

- New maps are ok.

- Game is not convincing, the worst part for me being the possibility of stealing loot from other player's kills. It's the worst thing imaginable in a coop party. That turns all the possible team work in a sneaky little rush to steal the most possible from others. I really hate that kind of gameplay, i'm not playing Warframe for that, i'm playing it to get a synergie with my team, add my fire in a tornado, my shield to protect someone, my relic to share a reward, etc etc. I'm having far more fun in Rathuum because it's an old school pvp disguised in a pve gameplay with a dualist spirit, why not. But the stealing in Index, yark. Don't want to do this to others, don't want them to do this to me. I'm actually playing it in solo. lel.

- Including something with the thirst of profit is ok for Corpus and their pathologic greed, of course, but it deserves maybe another proposition than a Rathuum clone with a bank system.

Edited October 21, 2016 by Stonehenge

[WhyNotBro]

15 minutes ago, Solar-Flare68 said:

Is it just me, or does the cephalon sound a bit like Fizzy from Sunset Overdrive?

For me it sounds like Claptrap from Borderlands.

[Stonehenge]

1 minute ago, WhyNotBro said:

For me it sounds like Claptrap from Borderlands.

True. With less dirty allusions, nonetheless.

[WhyNotBro]

1 minute ago, Stonehenge said:

With less dirty allusions

Yeah. Unfortunately :D

[Steel_Will]

Firstly, I like this game mode. It's fun. I'm not sure how much of a time sink it will be for me after the event but right now I'm enjoying it.

But, the announcers are too chatty.

And bigger but, getting the drops from your kills is tedious. I have to make two or three passes at them after killing something even with melee. Can we stop with the vacuum foolishness and expand the innate pick up radius of the frames please? Because getting the drops from your kills is tedious throughout the game.