Dev Stream 82: Endless Relic missions feedback

[Omnijack]

When I was watching that stream I could have sworn they said something about there being more features to the endless than they had revealed. Did anyone else notice that? Reading these comments I'll guess not.

[GreaseMan852]

1 hour ago, Nameless816 said:

I would say instead of re-choosing a relic every 5min/waves make one relic last a full rotation AABC. But also scaling/skewing of the relic.

Such as you choose your relic. and thats good for 20 mins After 20 mins you can choose another relic but then it becomes refined to flawless or whatever(for free because you stay longer). Which will give you better odds at getting the rare item AND wont make people able to sewer camp on one relic for 2 hours. However this would also have a drawback that you can NOT take any refined relic into the endless, but i'm not too sure about this drawback so tell me what you think!).

clearer explanation with example:

at 0 mins:
i choose neo v3 - which will be unrefined
at 20 mins: i choose neo v2 - which will get upgraded to Exceptional
etc etc until you have radiant and from that point it wont go higher.

This is one of the better ideas I've seen, but how would it work for radiant runs or clanmates grouping up to make it easier to get the latest piece of prime gear?  Maybe one relic should last AABC like you said but then if you stay past that and do another AABC (with the same relic) you get double chances for your rare to drop.  As in, we've stayed in for two AABC's and I didn't get the piece of gear from C that I wanted so I'll use my free reroll before we leave the mission.

[SeaUrchins]

New endless missions seem to be insert a relic to continue. Essentially with each relic used the enemies will become tougher increasing the time and effort for the reward you could have gotten by simply restarting the mission.

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

17 hours ago, ragingdeamon said:

I would say it's more time efficent to not sit through two loading screens and select the mission again.

You would be wrong. 

• higher level enemies take longer to kill
• there is a higher chance of failing the mission
• there is a higher chance of loosing all your relics

Etc. If it is not balanced by better rewards then there is no point. Risk should always be balanced with reward.

[Nlim]

Honestly skipping loading screens and being able to play a efficient mission which isn´t a rush type is kind of all I wanted. As long as I can go into recruiting for a 40 min+ random relics survival or something I´ll be happy. And between constant loading screens, failed mission starts (weirdly enough I get these a lot espescially with relics) and having to collect 10 orbs I have my doubts that even a capture relic run is much faster than 5 min in survival with the addition of endless runs having better base rewards and the potential of more tears the longer one goes.

Basicly more time spend playing than waiting, better rewards (via affinity, misson drops and extra rewards) and a decent alternative to rushing is a tripple win for me. Sure, one key can´t be used anymore to farm multiple rewards but I thougth we already went over this - in turn we got better chances via refining, the ability to choose the rewards and higher relic drop rates.

[Folren]

9 hours ago, EDYinnit said:

As edited where appropriate in my previous post, it appears that not all rotations are created equal.

 

After investigating the recommended Xini node, it does a much more adequate job of providing high grade Relics, with Neo from the very first wave and the potential for Axi on third and fourth.

 

If that followed suit consistently for the other source nodes (Derelict Survival, why do you give Lith?) then this thread would be much less accurate to the grind.

However, that lack of consistency and more importantly, the difference being so opaque until investigated directly, is why this thread remains partially relevant.

Ok, if you still not convinced about the sweetness of the new system then let me continue.
First of all, my respect for checking out Xini so quickly, but Xini isn't the only place you can visit for a decent bunch of relics. Xini is just awesome for the newest Axies and Liths. There're some other good spots for all the different kinds of relics. I haven't checked them out that much as Xini, so I can't recommend them that much. You may want to check out reddit or just google good relic spots, there you can find the actual info about everything you want to know about relic farm.
I can agree that the whole diversity isn't that great, and the lack of clarity about droprates without googling anything is a bit pain, but that feels like it was there before.
About farming the traces there's yet another trick or two. I'm not sure whether our belowed kavats can still give double traces or not (you may want to check that out too), but you can also use resource boosters from the login rewards to farm traces more efficiently. I didn't have any of them this week, but the login rewards rewarded me like 3 times on the previous week. I've got 1195 traces atm and I don't think I will need to farm them any time soon.
About sitting idly and trading - it is alredy thing of the past. There's a warframe.market (it's a website) where you can check actual prices and find yourself both sellers and buyers alike in less then a minute.
There's yet another stuff I want to pinpoint. The whole system was calculated and developed while thinking not only about the players, but the developers too. There's a certain kind of IT guys who gather statistics, create useful analysys and stuff, and those are most certanly involved in many developement steps. If getting new stuff would be even easier, it would create even less reason for people to buy Prime Access. Buyers of Prime Access are our best friends (and i'm one of them): they give money to the devs, devs are hiring more artists, programmers and other useful personel and giving us more content and quality. Oh, I got too off the track. You didn't compare the whole droprates of keys * droprates of rare stuff from keys to the droprates of relics * droprates of stuff from relics, didn't you? I've got the feeling, that the whole amount of time to get the stuff you need is about the same as before (for a player without stockpile of keys) (less if you use kavats, resouce boosters and maybe other stuff I can't remember or don't know), but right now we've got:
a) Tileset diversity
b) Possibility of farming "rare" stuff for selling and buying whatever you need
Before: the latest and vaulted stuff was the only pricey stuff, and after: "rare" quality goes for LOTS of items including newest and vaulted items.
c) Incoming endless missions after lots of polishing and feedback.
I don't really want to speculate on unreleased content, but I'm excited for any kind of endgame. Especially after seeing such a good amout of attention to the feedback from the devs. 
Before, you would prepare keys for the new Access (still lose, when you see Ext 3 / Sab 4 / MD3 in droprates), now you need to prepare traces and wait for the next Xini to be opened. I think it's kind of fair. And as for me, the new system is really good.

Edited October 30, 2016 by Folren

[Silvus-Sol]

Here's the key difference that everyone seems to be overlooking:

Relic system after 5 mins/waves: Relic Reward + Rotation Reward

Void system after 5 mins/waves: Rotation Reward

 

Now consider that the relic reward is almost always a prime piece, and that the rotation reward could end up being another relic to replace the one being used up. Suddenly it doesn't seem that horrible after all does it? Yes, you will use up more than one relic; but the fact that you get to choose your reward, are guaranteed a prime piece or forma each round, may get extra void traces as things get tougher, and still get the normal rotation rewards for the mission all serves to balance things out pretty well.

I'm excited for it.

 

Edited October 30, 2016 by Silvus-Sol

[Silvus-Sol]

Woops, double posted somehow

 

Edited October 31, 2016 by Silvus-Sol

[I3jionaa]

It's just an introduction of prime parts into defence & interception, those modes considered to be slowest anyways. Will be even slower with enemies turning corrupted periods, annoyance of collecting reactant also there.

As for good things: more chilled gameplay around objective, less racing to extraction, less loading screens, good place to get rid of [intact] relics, initial first relic can still be rad shared, potencially leading to squad farming X item do few intact waves for traces, thus making sure squad able to do another rad share, leading to less recruiting issues & more gameplay.

Atleast it's variety. I will give it a shot.

[wwarfield]

I've just watched the last devstream and i do like the option to continue a mission by using another relic but i don't think it's enough to really bring back the endless missions , so i came out with an idea . Just increase the number of items we can get after each "wave" like this :

5 min - 1 item 

10 min - 2 items

15 min - 3 items 

20+ min  - get all 4 of them 

Also let's assume you get a number of traces every 5 min . After the 20 min mark you increase that number with a % (like 5-10% or something) and add another 100% chance to get another relic  (since you would burn throw them in endless missions ) .So after the 20 min mark you get all 4 rewards , more traces , and an extra relic to replace that ones you are using .I think that would be a really nice ( needed ) change to the endless type missions .

[ranks21]

warframe has lost its way, the devs has catered to the whiners that has repeatedly voiced suggestions that made the game what it is now>> boring and stagnant.. look at the whole relic system<< it has chased more players away than what it can attract. there is no saving grace..

I stopped for 3-4 months waiting for DE to at least make it worthwhile..

there is nothing attractive about the game anymore. low level enemies ( any faction) gives the same mods as the ones in the highest of levels, even though they have multiple mods in their drop table= no diversity whatsoever << again stagnant and boring even after 3 yrs>>>

melee and combo moves/animations per class are basically the same >>again stagnant and boring and nothing new or diverse even with newly added weapons.

xp/affinity nerf just outright killed what was left as a saving grace for this game>> its not even worth the time to do the simplest and most basic thing as level up and forma a weapon anymore.

I had bought a syndicate melee to level for the past 2 weeks to level up ( its maxed level now) playing 1-2 hrs daily in the void survival which equals to 14+ hrs of disgust and disappointment and still the syndicate bar is not even refilled... all this from just playing the game with affinity booster=  stagnant and boring. this is not fun anymore with the limited time I have  after work, after TWW which this company seems to be going through at their office warframe will be deleted from my computer and i'll just cut my losses.

Warframe is the "jack of all trades and master of none" always fixing but nothing is ever completed properly. such a sad reality.

 

Edited October 30, 2016 by ranks21

[Alcoholism]

When I heard about this in the devstream (and yes I'm aware it's a WIP and not fully concrete yet) I do see some potential problems that I'm sure they're already aware of but any way:

• Drop rate increase - There's always the possibility for DE to lose revenue if endless missions were used as a way to increase the chances of obtaining particular prime parts. A lot of the reason people buy prime access for example is because they do not want to spend time farming the relics and then running those relics for the parts. Players may re-think this approach if they feel they can simply run endless missions for long periods of time in order to almost guarantee obtaining that prime part.
   
• Efficiency - You can easily run non-endless missions like capture and it'd be more efficient/easier/quicker to run them over and over than to run an endless mission that scales up - unless of course the endless waves are made "faster".
   
• Monotony - The whole reason they brought in the relic system was to break up the monotony of void missions - yet we are seeing monotony being replaced by another monotony. They need to bring more "fun" to the endless mission types and I am seeing some interesting examples from the new fortress tileset assault mission type that I am sure they could use to their advantage here.

My suggestion, have endless missions as a better outlet for ducat/junk part farming - maybe even add some kind of milestone special reward for reaching a specific wave. However, as I see many players suggest this in the past, increasing prime part drop rate just isn't gonna cut it and will just damage the game further.

[(PSN)HSomDevil]

How about this:

Every player still goes in with their own relics.

Then you can recycle that same relic for as long as you want and the relic level drops once per rotation and once you get a reward from the intact relic it deletes. Then you can select a new relic if you want to keep going. You can also switch relics after every rotation but that will delete the old one.

Would this count as some sort of compromise?

[Kimimoto]

19 hours ago, DesuTronic said:

If I really want a test for my 5 forma tigris prime then that is what the 3rd sortie survival in an eximus stronghold is for. Enemies start at lvl 100 and all of them have multiple layers of buffs on them. To get to that kind of level normally I'd have to play 40 minutes of a normal survival which is boring and the rewards wont be anything good either, just more ducats.

The only thing that would fix this is if they made endless rathuum with relics. At least there we can kill lvl 100 special enemeis and have a good chance of getting 200 endo per kill while also getting some prime stuff on the side.

TL;DR there are already multiple much better ways to "test your skill". Right now no one does it because it gives no rewards. Getting more fissures is as good as getting no rewards which changes nothing.

 

40 minutes of Survival to get tougher enemies, you know like the old void /shot. The rewards wont be anything good, they'd only be what you'd normally get from doing fissures /shot. Sounds like you should just stop playing because nothing's a good enough reward /shot.

You can only do the sorties once a day, then what do you do, or what if you want to get prime parts instead? Sorties give big chunks of Endo/Lenses/Credits which means no rewards /shot. More fissures means more relics opened plus probably the AABC rotation reward which would be more rewards than the old void, but that all equals nothing /shot. 

I can't even begin to understand your logic, it's insanity. /chugtherest

Plesae no motre, yuo're going to kill me...

Edited October 30, 2016 by Kimimoto

[ra9una]

Not great, defeats the purpose I find, but, assuming you can do this without relics also, it'll be great for traces. Sucky over all, but no worst that not having any endless missions at all, I guess. 

[Equinox_Knight_Light]

I prefer if the system they proposed was instead of giving more traces, it would give more odds to the next following relics or after the 2nd reward give the player a chance to re roll any of their other rewards for a chance to get higher tier rewards. That said this system really needs to improve the odds of getting relics as rewards from normal mission.

Overall not a bad thing but hope they keep improving on it

[(XBOX)Englands Own]

On Friday, October 28, 2016 at 9:24 PM, (XB1)DRG JupiterIvan said:

I saw this coming. DE knows that endless missions are pointless. So they try to do something about it. They add the ability to keep using relics in endless missions.

However that's not how the community wants it. They want to spend one relic to get multiple rewards. Which is fair, since they have to go against harder enemies right?

The problem here is that this ^ goes against DEs current philosophy. ^ this is one of the reasons DE changed the system to begin with. With this ^ system relic usage would diminish. Meaning people would have a stockple of relics.

Its a catch 22. The community wants this. DE has trouble being OK with this. Doing this would be no better than doing a T3 survival or defense once again, it's just we get different rewards per rotation and it's on another tileset.

So. I have a solution for both DE and the community. 

Lets go ahead with what DE has planned. However with each rotation the relics have a higher chance of dropping rare items. Now it can't be too crazy of an increase. People want better rewards? They gotta work for it.

Each rotation offers a 0.50% increase for the uncommon and rare items. This means an hour into an endless survival you will have a 6% increase. This is not counting radiant relics. This is just a placeholder number.

Of course you still have to use up a relic. This way people that want to work for better rewards have a way to do so. This also keeps DEs current design philosophy in check. 

Thats it.

Well I'm happy about DEs decision to change how the relic system Is being changed.For all those players that want to actually want to challenge themselves and get multiple drops/traces,It's a good thing.For all those that don't 5 mins/waves and they can quit as they do now.win, win for both types of players.

Edited October 30, 2016 by (XB1)Englands Own
Already written

[_JustSomeone_]

The idea for new endless are a joke for sure. Same thing as we have now but a bit more fast. Old system was great in a way those that farmed stuff, plus it was a good way of rewarding those that wanted to go into those high levels. Now we have..... high levels (if we want to stay )....

Anyways.. DE said that wasn't the final idea so i hope they surely come up with something good.

To be short the grind goes a bit more like this these days...

Before: Grind random key, grind lots of stuff for 1 key, repeat

Now: Grind random key, grind 1 random thing, repeat..............

Edited October 30, 2016 by x_xUnknownx_x

[BlackCoMerc]

On 10/28/2016 at 4:24 PM, (XB1)DRG JupiterIvan said:

I saw this coming. DE knows that endless missions are pointless. So they try to do something about it. They add the ability to keep using relics in endless missions.

However that's not how the community wants it. They want to spend one relic to get multiple rewards. Which is fair, since they have to go against harder enemies right?

The problem here is that this ^ goes against DEs current philosophy. ^ this is one of the reasons DE changed the system to begin with. With this ^ system relic usage would diminish. Meaning people would have a stockple of relics.

Its a catch 22. The community wants this. DE has trouble being OK with this. Doing this would be no better than doing a T3 survival or defense once again, it's just we get different rewards per rotation and it's on another tileset.

So. I have a solution for both DE and the community. 

Lets go ahead with what DE has planned. However with each rotation the relics have a higher chance of dropping rare items. Now it can't be too crazy of an increase. People want better rewards? They gotta work for it.

Each rotation offers a 0.50% increase for the uncommon and rare items. This means an hour into an endless survival you will have a 6% increase. This is not counting radiant relics. This is just a placeholder number.

Of course you still have to use up a relic. This way people that want to work for better rewards have a way to do so. This also keeps DEs current design philosophy in check. 

Thats it.

This is the inevitable point in free to play where the desire to make money (from prime access) takes precedence over player enjoyment. It comes with every free game - that point where a slowly fading game in decline reaches a place where it's need to bring in revenue outweighs the need to provide an enjoyable experience.

Warframe has reached that point.

It never ends well. The game always goes under. And this one will, too, if it doesn't change.

We need rewards NOT tied to the business model. Still we have to PLAY to obtain. Stuff that isn't available to trade. Or for cash. Stuff DE cannot hold over us with their increasingly punitive business model.

[motorfirebox]

17 hours ago, EDYinnit said:

Would those be the Baro prices or the Ducat values (which had to be increased and rebalanced in compensation for the reduction in prime part acquisition)?

Would those be the market prices that literally cannot be any better because the refinement increase in drop rate cannot possibly account for getting 25% or fewer of the drops per relic invested compared to Keys?

Take a ^{[citation needed]}

That would be both the Baro prices and the Ducat values. Citation right here: Baro's prices reflect that Ducat supplies are "back to normal".

Market prices actually can account for getting 25% fewer drops per relic compared to (some) keys. Citation is basic economic theory, if supply is reduced then prices rise. And despite getting 25% fewer drops per relic compared to (some) keys, there hasn't been any significant increase in prices. Ergo, supply has not shrunk, ergo the grind has not increased.

[TheLexiConArtist]

7 hours ago, Folren said:

Ok, if you still not convinced about the sweetness of the new system then let me continue.
First of all, my respect for checking out Xini so quickly, but Xini isn't the only place you can visit for a decent bunch of relics. Xini is just awesome for the newest Axies and Liths. There're some other good spots for all the different kinds of relics. I haven't checked them out that much as Xini, so I can't recommend them that much. You may want to check out reddit or just google good relic spots, there you can find the actual info about everything you want to know about relic farm.
I can agree that the whole diversity isn't that great, and the lack of clarity about droprates without googling anything is a bit pain, but that feels like it was there before.
About farming the traces there's yet another trick or two. I'm not sure whether our belowed kavats can still give double traces or not (you may want to check that out too), but you can also use resource boosters from the login rewards to farm traces more efficiently. I didn't have any of them this week, but the login rewards rewarded me like 3 times on the previous week. I've got 1195 traces atm and I don't think I will need to farm them any time soon.

Before, you would prepare keys for the new Access (still lose, when you see Ext 3 / Sab 4 / MD3 in droprates), now you need to prepare traces and wait for the next Xini to be opened. I think it's kind of fair. And as for me, the new system is really good.

That AABB structure is definitely much better, I must have just singled out all the worst possible drop sources by unfortunate circumstance. Interception can be a pain and/or boring solo, but being as far along as I am, survivals are generally approachable for long runs as well, dumping an hour into ODS is no big stress, but that's apparently the most utterly neglected location since the change (and insult to injury, its erstwhile Nova systems are now a common drop) with its not-even-reliable traditional AABC of Lith/Mesos, Neos and Axis.

This morning's tickover saw a resource booster, which was nice, since as you said it affects Traces. I just wish I hadn't spent 800 with no rares - maybe that's just my bad luck with the RNG.

 

One of the big losses in the new Relic system is the lack of ability for people to just casually host runs, though, I remain convinced of this. People who know the right spots, have the patience or have teams able to delve deeper into more lucrative but oppressive missions _{Excavation is awful} got to share the results with the general public, and since everyone got every reward, you'd even see some mixing of different keys in a randomly picked up group depending on what was available.

It's inarguably going to have turned a number of players away. Ones who don't want to trade, but are on the less intent end of the play spectrum. That middleground option of waiting and hopping in with graciously hosted keys is gone, and public random matchmaking isn't really an answer to fill that void, with the blind chance that someone else will happen to bring the right relic (possibly refined if you're eve more astronomically lucky) while you spend something you don't actually need.

 

45 minutes ago, motorfirebox said:

That would be both the Baro prices and the Ducat values. Citation right here: Baro's prices reflect that Ducat supplies are "back to normal".

Market prices actually can account for getting 25% fewer drops per relic compared to (some) keys. Citation is basic economic theory, if supply is reduced then prices rise. And despite getting 25% fewer drops per relic compared to (some) keys, there hasn't been any significant increase in prices. Ergo, supply has not shrunk, ergo the grind has not increased.

75% fewer drops, actually. 25% of drops per relic - one per customer. Exponentially less than 25% of drops per relic compared to Sabotage and Endless keys. Brief stints in trade chat have seen things being bought/sold that I wouldn't have even bothered trying before, which is implicitly a higher price than 'unsellable'.

Simple logic says that four keys at a 2.5% nonexclusive drop rate giving 0-4 desirable results can't balance with four relics with an exclusive drop giving 0-1 results unless the refined relic drop rate (multiplicative with any notable increase in acquisition of relics) is at least a solid four times better than that of keys, and more besides when accounting for those jam-packed Rotation C Endless rare-drops.

 

Your citation there doesn't support much - "ducat supplies are back to normal" because they were changed/increased because lowered acquisition rates of the parts used. That was the solution. Between reducing Baro prices and increasing ducat valuation, they just settled on using the latter to compensate the shift.

[Miserie]

WARNING TRUMP WALL OF TEXT INCOMING.

 

 

 

As you guys can probably see, this is my first forum post and I am a complete newbie to WF. But I've researched almost every aspect of it (except Second Dream because supposed mindblow), from weapons, mods, companions, warframe types, game modes, conclave, lunaro, syndicates, clabs and research, archwing, you name it. But one thing I've never come to ubderstand is the nonstop ongoing rant of older players complaining about the new relic system, saying that it is actually more grind compared to before, since you have to farm for a specific relic to get a specific droptable before actually getting the rare loot. I've seen both sides of the coin and the unhealthy infestation ( :^) kill me) that it has developed in the community. Addi g insult to injury the overall vocal reception to the upcoming endless fissures have been negative, some constructive, some just plain stupid. But the main pont is that people could get more rewards for a single void key contrary to the relics we have now. But as I see it, the new system values quality over quantity, since the side of the community supporting it points out that you had to do difficult and time-consuming runs to get to the rotation you wanted, and even after that it commonly rewarded ducat fodder and formas and/or orokin cells.

 

At the end of the day though, I don't fet why people are so worked up about it, you can get the part you want at a shorter amount of time considering the ease of access to the different relics of the game. And with this new mode, get more players doing it with you, all with the same relic and you'll probably get the part you wanted after a few runs even without using traces. 

All of this, however, is a newbie's point of view, so I come to ask you, the WF community, what's all the fuss about? It's not like the old system's coming back. Why not move on and progress, though maybe not in the most optimal way, through the game and the story? Any replies and feedback are appreciated. Also, CLEM!!

[Raniu]

The new system is better. The arguments for it are so obvious that there's no need to point them out.

I think people don't like changes. They liked the endless missions but they don't feel like doing them if there's no reward for the time spent. Even if what used to be the reward was not quality but a bunch of prime parts you could sell for ducats.

With the new endless fissure we're getting, we'll be able to farm more traces the longer we stay, guess people missed that part too.

That's all I guess.

[Chipputer]

1 minute ago, Raniu said:

I think people don't like changes.

This.

Couple that with this insatiable desire to fill their pockets with stuff that they have literally no use for at all times of the day and you have what amounts to the other side of the argument.

"It's not endless if I don't get more than one reward per relic," is the most common phrasing of it. They don't like the 1:1 system because it requires them to put more effort into their prime part hunting. No matter how many times you point out that endless missions then reward extra relics, that doesn't matter. If it's not, "I put in 1 key, use basic gameplay exploits to stay 5 hours and then get parts for every rotation," then it's not good enough for them. You can't even attempt to explain it to them from a business standpoint. They don't want to hear it.

[Varacal]

i think what those players hate the most is before, you can use 1 key, you get lots of parts, now you need to use 1 key per "rotation", they're just angry cause they get less stuff for 1 key/relic