Ash Revisited Feedback Megathread

[Nazrethim]

1 hour ago, tisdfogg said:

One might be tempted to assume that after a year this thread is nothing but a circle jerk of people who just can't get over Ash's rework. But posts like this show that's not the case. Not only some great ideas in there, but also consideration is given to people who are satisfied with current BS, so that the new moveset seamlessly includes the old Ult.

It would be so much easier to just totally disregard the opposing point of view. Rare thing on the forums. Should be +3 for idea, diplomatic approach and perseverance, but I just have one, so +1. 

Thank you.

It is indeed a sad truth that some people oppose changes for no rime or reason. This "Stance Blade Storm" and the other modifications to Ash's abilities has met positive reception by the most level-headed players. Opposition to this one comes from people who want old Press4toWin back, think BS is fine as it is now (even though it has been mathematically proven to be not only inferior in power but also in QoL and interactivity) or don't like the idea of "another exalted blade" (despite the fact this specific concept strays as far away as possible from EB, which encourages brute E-spam over ability comboing or it's own melee combos).

In the original (now archived) thread where this concept was posted it was specified that Finisher animations in SBS would use current BS animations, while the combo attacks would be cobbled together from existing melee stances such as Claw, Sparring and Dual Daggers. A point was made that the rework would have to be feasible with already existing game assets to simplify DE's work.

Conclave balancing was also included, as currently Ash abilities are so weak that Channeling is a better use of energy, BS in particular is the second most useless ultimate in the roster (Nº1 being Shadows of the Dead that sets the next respawn time to zero... yeah) but cannot be buffed in any meaningful way without making it broken, hence why a rework is needed. Since Finisher attacks aren't available in Conclave the Stance could just get solid damage, some evasive/elusiveness perks (like replacing Dodge maneuvers with Manic-style short teleports).

Hopefully DE will do something for Ash in the future. Or maybe someone should code a playable demo and see if the community and DE like it enough to implement it. But alas, for the time being, only writing on the Forums we can do.

[Aldarin_Blackwing]

Alright, I'll add in my suggestions regarding a rework for ash.
I'm switching some aspects of his abilities around, and reworking blade-storm into something thematically appropriate.

Shuriken

I've actually used this in missions, normally low level where I don't want to bother aiming or during a reload to kill remaining enemies.
I still don't think this ability should be Ash's kit, as it's way too generic ninja. The only real reason to use it is the homing capability.

Smoke Screen

I'm actually decently happy with the ability as is, the only request I have here is to make the ability recast-able. Not only would this allow for more continuous invisibility, but also would encourage players to use the stagger effect that the ability has. This is mainly a QoL change.
 

Fatal Teleport

There are two changes that I would like to see to this ability. First is to change it to be either free-target or cast-able on enemies. Given nova's wormhole, nezha's chakram, and the Itzal's Blink, it seems reasonable to assume that this is doable (and clipping effects can be compensated for).

Second is to change the ability to use Ash's hidden blades. If cast on an enemy, Ash attacks the target with his hidden blades, causing 700/1000/1500/2000 Finisher damage with a 100% Bleed chance.
 

Reasoning: Fatal Teleport currently has usability issues due to targeting and fast paced movement. It's hard to accurately target while moving quickly, and often it's quicker to move to the location than try and teleport to that location. This usability was somewhat addressed with the change to allow targeting of other objects, but I still think it need more work.
Teleport also has issues due to the animation variability due to clunkiness and issues with weapon finisher animations. Given ash's hidden blades, it seems appropriate to tie them in with this ability. This solves the different animation issues, the clunkiness that currently makes Fatal Teleport essential, and standardizes the damage of the ability.

Blade Storm

Ash emits a smoke cloud around himself (which moves with him), blinding enemies and reducing the visibility of all allies inside the storm (reduced visibility/ %evasion). Ash also spawns two shadows that teleport to enemies inside the cloud, attacking closer enemies first.
Channeled ability with an energy drain of something like 15energy/second (in line with mesa).
Damage from clones stays as current, or is changed during a balancing pass
 

Reasoning: The change to blade storm makes it a thematic channeled ability. Essentially it becomes a dark cloud of smoke providing coverage for Ash to assassinate enemies. Ash is free to move and attack with normal weaponry during this ability, so players are not animation locked. The smoke clones attacking nearby enemies provides elements of the current/old blade-storm. The blind gives Ash some more CC and allows him to perform melee finishers on enemies inside the storm. The evasion provides some of the current defensiveness Ash gains from the invulnerability, and also provides this to nearby teammates.
While the ability loses any ranged aspect, this is balanced by the targeting changes to teleport and the freedom to use other abilities and weapons during blade storm. Blade storm can synergize with teleport to easy move to a new group of targets.

Overall:

I still don't know what to do with Ash's 1. I don't really like shuriken thematically, but It is still somewhat useful currently. I also can't think of anything to replace it since I have no idea what the devs have as an overall vision of Ash.

In terms of developer work, these changes allow for many assets to be reused. Ash has various blade storm animations appropriate for different attack vectors, which could be reused for Fatal Teleport. The free-target portion would require more work in order to allow the multiple target modes, as well as the animation change that would likely be necessary for that section.
The blade storm change also would reuse the current animations of blade storm. The main changes here would be the additional assets needed for the large smoke cloud/storm and maybe a small channeling animation (like more smoke coming off ash).

Overall I think these would be good changes to Ash in order to make his kit feel smoother and be more relevant over all levels of play.

 

Edit/Response: @Nazrethim
I'm more of a PvE player, but I don't think this is really broken for conclave. Fatal Teleport's Damage can be reduced so it's not an insta-kill for 25 energy, Blade-Storm clone damage can also be reduced. This means that it is a channeled ability starting at 100 energy in conclave that quick players might be able to escape from.
Regarding the "sit AFK while clones do all the work for you" I don't think that is a major problem considering the numerous other abilities that do something similar (Equinox, Various other channeled abilities). Blade storm is not an insta-kill of enemies within an Area, since there would be only 2-3 clones and animation delay. This would be effective against small groups of tough enemies, but could be overwhelmed by something like the infested. Non-infested can still fire into the smoke storm, just at reduced effectiveness. This means that against infested, Ash would need to help finish off additional enemies, and in all cases the Player would also need to move around in order to mitigate damage as well as reach new targets.
The high energy/second cost also helps to balance the ability as well as channeled ability's prevention of various forms of energy restore. Given the high energy cost and mod tradeoffs it is impossible to build for Strength, Range, Duration, and Efficiency all at once. These all affect the new version, Duration + Efficiency affect energy cost like all other channeled, Range and Strength are self explanatory. This leads to various forms Burst (Low Duration/Efficiency  + Long Range + High Strength), Continuous (High Duration + Efficiency + Low Range and Strength), or Balanced.
In terms of altering the game-play, In addition to the damage it also increases evasiveness and allows ash to perform finishers on enemies inside the storm due to the blinds (Damage + CC) which is in line with some of the other channeled ultimate abilities.

Edited June 29, 2017 by Aldarin_Blackwing
Slightly more detail on blade storm

[Nazrethim]

@Aldarin_Blackwing so.. how does all this works in Conclave exactly? And what prevents that BS from being "sit AFK while clones do the work for you" ?  How does it change the playstyle while active? Other channeled ultimates alter the gameplay while they are at it, how does this do that?

[Hypernaut1]

Here's my rework

1. Shuriken remains the same for most part. Any enemies hit with shuriken, or under it's bleed status automatically get 3 marks when making is activated or increased Bladestorm damage.

2. Smoke Shadow remains the same. I think it does it's job. Being able to use it on the move was a huge buff. With marking activated, I would have all enemies affected by the stun become instantly marked. This would allow you to hop into a crowd, SS and blade storm those enemies affected by stun without spinning around.

3. I think teleport is fine. I do wish the camera reorientation would be better though. I would have it's duration paused or slowed down during BS. 

3. Bladestorm. I personally like the slower passive marking style of BS. I would increase it's synergy with his other abilities. Shuriken would 3x mark enemies and SS stun would instantly mark and the duration paused or slowed during BS.

I would speed up the animation by 0.3 seconds and speed it up as more enemies are marked. Pressing 4 again should be able to cancel bladestorm at any time. 

Last change i would make is to make Ash untargetable for 1 second when BS is over. Enemies shouldn't have an instant bead on Ash after he was just teleporting all over the place.

Edited June 28, 2017 by Hypernaut1

[Nazrethim]

2 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

Here's my rework

1. Shuriken remains the same for most part. Any enemies hit with shuriken, or under it's bleed status automatically get 3 marks when making is activated or increased Bladestorm damage.

That would only work if BS marking mode is already active, which means energy sink is still in play. And Shurikens can't be controlled to hit intended targets, so you may mark two and if you want to mark more you have to kill them or throw the shuriken in opposite direction.

2 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

2. Smoke Shadow remains the same. I think it does it's job. Being able to use it on the move was a huge buff. With marking activated, I would have all enemies affected by the stun become instantly marked. This would allow you to hop into a crowd, SS and blade storm those enemies affected by stun without spinning around.

While it DOES it's job, it certainly lacking in feel. For starters it should create a smoke cloud (effects may vary according to who you ask). Again, this only works if marking mode is in play, and at the range SS staggers it's almost certain you already wasted energy marking the targets.

2 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

3. I think teleport is fine. I do wish the camera reorientation would be better though. I would have it's duration paused or slowed down during BS. 

Except it still buggy/useless when enemies are behind covers with hp like ramparts or blunts. And that it's virtually pointless in Conclave due to lacking any sort of effect on the target.

2 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

3. Bladestorm. I personally like the slower passive marking style of BS. I would increase it's synergy with his other abilities. Shuriken would 3x mark enemies and SS stun would instantly mark and the duration paused or slowed during BS.

Except it isn't a slower pace as an enemy you stare in the general direction of is instantly marked, it's only slightly slower with multiple marking, which involves moving the camera like you are having a seizure (and likely producing one in the process). It's difficult to add synergy, if not impossible, because the ability, as it is now, overlaps with the other abilities (namely a good melee+SS is better and more cost efficient at wiping crowds than BS and Teleport already does the job of assassinating high profile targets). The SS paused during BS has already been requested... but the whole point of DE was "nerf ash" so they haven't done jack yet.

2 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

I would speed up the animation by 0.3 seconds and speed it up as more enemies are marked. Pressing 4 again should be able to cancel bladestorm at any time. 

A better time saver (apart from the ability to interrupt it) would be to have clones assisst instead of following Ash's trail. Like, you mark 20 enemies and 3 clones show up, Ash does 5 Finisher animations while the clones sort the rest, with marks serving only as a damage multiplier (or just cut it out with multiple marking altogether). But that would be going back to old BS, therefore back to square one.

2 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

Last change i would make is to make Ash untargetable for 1 second when BS is over. Enemies shouldn't have an instant bead on Ash after he was just teleporting all over the place.

Which could be easily solved by freezing SS duration while it's active as enemies can't target someone who is invisible.

 

To put it bluntly.. Blade Storm, as it currently is, is far too outdated mechanically and needs a serious rework rather than small (and mostly pointless) tweaks, as there isn't any meaningful way to "fix it" without going back to Old Blade Storm. It's a losing battle.

[Hypernaut1]

One other change I'd like to make to shuriken is to make Ash able to rapid fire from alternate hands 2x at a time when the button is tapped. The targeting would also have to work to where it changes sightly with each throw until it cycles back to original target. This way you can rain down bleed procs on a group of enemies if you have the energy.

[Nazrethim]

7 hours ago, Aldarin_Blackwing said:

I don't think this is really broken for conclave.

You will have to think it trough though.

How big is the area? How much damage would it deal? If it's too much damage it will be broken, but if it deals too little it would be useless (as current BS is). Is a static death zone or does it follow Ash around?

This and many more questions must be answered at some point. The more mechanical details you give, the better.

[Nazrethim]

1 hour ago, Hypernaut1 said:

One other change I'd like to make to shuriken is to make Ash able to rapid fire from alternate hands 2x at a time when the button is tapped. The targeting would also have to work to where it changes sightly with each throw until it cycles back to original target. This way you can rain down bleed procs on a group of enemies if you have the energy.

It could work if already marked enemies aren't eligible for Shuriken. However we get the problem that marking mode would render them inmune to Shuriken targeting if you stare in their general direction. Compare that to the proposal I discussed with tisdfogg above that would make Aimed single shuriken and rain of shurikens both work in a less clunky manner by simply making the Death Marks a second passive for Ash, separated entirely from Blade Storm (well, not entirely, as current BS would still exist as an additional feature for Teleport)

 

[True_Naeblis]

I like the idea of changing Teleport followed by a finisher to use the equipped melee weapon's stats but Ash's hidden blades for the animation so that there's no longer an issue with the finishers glitching.

This much feedback and no response is pretty bad juju. 

[Nazrethim]

Welp, seems like we are winning, little by little.

Ash got a buff in Conclave: Teleport no longer requires a target! (shorter range, but whatever, it's useful now!)

[(XBOX)Angryspy101]

 

2 hours ago, Nazrethim said:

Welp, seems like we are winning, little by little.

Ash got a buff in Conclave: Teleport no longer requires a target! (shorter range, but whatever, it's useful now!)

Love how DE made Ash's teleport no longer require a target in conclave but not in PVE, makes no sense.

Edited June 29, 2017 by (XB1)CFE Angry

[Nazrethim]

3 hours ago, (Xbox One)CFE Angry said:

 

Love how DE made Ash's teleport no longer require a target in conclave but not in PVE, makes no sense.

Step by step. A minor victory. Hopefully we will convince them for more in the future.

[StonedMakak]

7 hours ago, (Xbox One)CFE Angry said:

 

Love how DE made Ash's teleport no longer require a target in conclave but not in PVE, makes no sense.

I literally cannot even... Wha...? <insert all facepalm gifs on the internet>

Jokes aside, been awhile since I played Conclave... got to jump in just to check it out.

@Nazrethim, you say the range is shorter, but how does it work exactly? If you point to a far end of the map, does it say "out of range" or does it blink you forward anyway? Can't test it right now and am curious.

[Disaeo]

Tl;Dr, over 120 pages of comments and my last one was like a couple of days after the rework. I don't think DE will take in consideration any of our opinions anytime soon, since they're most definetly working on chroma's rework and perhaps some other warframe too. I still believe we shouldn't give up on comments so you might wonder, what's the utility of My comment? Touche

Edited June 29, 2017 by Tetroner

[Nazrethim]

4 hours ago, tisdfogg said:

@Nazrethim, you say the range is shorter, but how does it work exactly? If you point to a far end of the map, does it say "out of range" or does it blink you forward anyway? Can't test it right now and am curious.

It's 20m range (down from 30). If the surface you are aiming is further away than 20m the "out of range" message shows up. It works on any surface though, be player, wall, floor or ceiling.

[rasunin]

anybody here uses the blade storm to outline enemies purely for sniping purposes? 
Death Mark Vision

it just helps with dark areas and when enemies are well camouflage with their surroundings. and those hiding behind objects too. 

Edited July 1, 2017 by rasunin

[Nazrethim]

7 minutes ago, rasunin said:

anybody here uses the blade storm to outline enemies purely for sniping purposes? 
Death Mark Vision

it just helps with dark areas and when enemies are well camouflage with their surroundings. and those hiding behind objects too. 

I do, hence why I think it should be kept as Ash's second passive (activated by holding RMB) when BS gets reworked into something else (hopefullly a stance ultimate that doesn't overlap and rather synergizes with the other abilities).

[Shuuro]

So I just had an epiphany earlier, and I decided I'd like to share it with the rest of my fellow Ash mains/users.

Lately DE's been kind of hush hush about the whole umbra thing, but if I recall, they wanted to make umbras unique in a way.

Now, if this happens, I'll be all in for forgiving DE about this well-over-a-year drought I've been feeling with Ash.

If the current Ash stays as is, but all of our collective feedback is being used as a template for an "Ash Umbra" skill set?

I don't know. Just wishful thinking, but if that's the case then I'll be a happy camper at least. If not, I'll just pop in every now and then when I get an urge to play my good ol' Ash that I've spent literally thousands of hours playing.

Well that's just my thought process for now. If the collective input of everyones feedback can't make it to Vanilla Ash, maybe Umbra Ash might serve as a different/alternative skill set.

[Neightrix]

Still a big fan of making Blade Storm consume stacks like Nidus's 4 - that way you can make it an instant AOE like it was before, and make it even faster in execution than before. In keeping with the *ninja* theme, guns could give 1 stack, melee could give 2 stacks, crossbows could give 2 stacks, and long bows could give 3 stacks on kill. It would also mean you can't spam it, so you'd have to play with your weapons and skills and have a very fast Blade Storm be the payoff.

Edited July 2, 2017 by Neightrix

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

14 hours ago, Nazrethim said:

I do, hence why I think it should be kept as Ash's second passive (activated by holding RMB) when BS gets reworked into something else (hopefullly a stance ultimate that doesn't overlap and rather synergizes with the other abilities).

I don't, but I have built to maximize his 3. S#&amp;&#036; man I don't even use his 1 with seeking shuriken anymore, ever since I got my hikou riven. Ash is now only a 2,3 frame in my eyes. Which really just sucks. Duration, Range, Armor that's it. And then there is not point in using him because Loki with CL can do the exact same thing. As Ash was my goto spy, extermination, rescue frame. 

Edited July 2, 2017 by (XB1)FCastle74

[Nazrethim]

4 minutes ago, (Xbox One)FCastle74 said:

I don't, but I have built to maximize his 3. S#&amp;&#036; man I don't even use his 1 with seeking shuriken anymore, ever since I got my hikou riven. Ash is now only a 2,3 frame in my eyes. Which really just sucks. 

Conclave follows that pattern too, with Shuriken being not worth using and BS still being utter sh*t

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

On 7/1/2017 at 8:51 PM, Nazrethim said:

Conclave follows that pattern too, with Shuriken being not worth using and BS still being utter sh*t

I mean, hell I could argue with my hikou riven, steel fiber, rapid resilience, vitiliaty, duration and efficiency mods (and all I really need is streamline) Loki can make a better ninja if not just as good, and it pisses me off. I recently switched back to ash for spy and rescue missions. Built solely for his 3 and 2. Sigh..

Edited July 7, 2017 by (XB1)FCastle74

[Xaentrick]

Has anything been said by the devs about this? I mean at 129 pages, there is no way they do not know that most are unhappy.

[Hypernaut1]

On 7/2/2017 at 3:15 AM, Xaentrick said:

Has anything been said by the devs about this? I mean at 129 pages, there is no way they do not know that most are unhappy.

But most aren't unhappy. Most are fine with Ash and perform great with him in all content. They just don't come to this thread.

This thread is just the same few people hanging out trying to get his 4 changed into a lame uncreative fan-fic stance ability.

Most of the criticism is just gross exaggerations. This is probably why it gets ignored. There are far bigger problems with other frames too. Most of the Ash complaints in this particular thread are just nitpicks.

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

On 11/25/2016 at 2:03 PM, LycanPT said:

all you accomplished in my perspective was straitgh nerf the ability while keeping the annoying features of it, you didn't rework teh mechanic, you just added a condition to trigger it

^140+ bumps

48 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

But most aren't unhappy. Most are fine with Ash and perform great with him in all content. They just don't come to this thread.

This thread is just the same few people hanging out trying to get his 4 changed into a lame uncreative fan-fic stance ability.

Most of the criticism is just gross exaggerations. This is probably why it gets ignored. There are far bigger problems with other frames too. Most of the Ash complaints in this particular thread are just nitpicks.

DE Danielle 11 bumps. Most are not fine with it. Actually go through the thread see who likes it and who doesn't. No, most are definitely not fine with it. Although they can still play with him well because he's their favorite.