Ash Revisited Feedback Megathread

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

8 minutes ago, Nazrethim said:

That's a nice build.

You could also replace Armored Agility with Mobilize or other bulletjump mod too on more open maps.

Thank you. It's a vary fast build. 

Good Idea..I might just do that.  

[(PSN)Vexx757]

9 hours ago, Kunsumption said:

Can I make an honest proposition to anyone who still reads this forum?

 

Can we all on the next available ask in the devestream post about bringing SOME SORT OF CHANGE to Ash? ANYTHING seriously! We really need to rally now and get some head way on some change.

Things wrong with Ash`s bladestorm

·         He can`t use bs in a team because other players kill the marked target e.g ember, mirage with simulor, banshee etc.

·         The animation is shown for every enemy marked which means bs is way longer than before.

·         Activating bs is slow because of the two stages.

·         When using bs without a melee weapon is even slower to use before the change.

·         It`s harder to activate bs on a controller than on PC.

·         One enemy mark = 1 sec 30 enemies marked = 30 secs which means bs is too long. Before ash`s clones killed with him shortening bs`s animation now 1^st mark is him doing it which makes bs longer.

·         One enemy mark = 15 energy being invisible = 10 firstly it`s energy consuming and secondly what’s the point of watching the animation if I can`t see myself pulling off sick moves.

·         Weapons can kill better than him e.g tonkor (which for a damage dealing warframe is VERY BAD)

·         He can`t kill in a AOE anymore (can`t kill enemies behind walls) like embers 4^th ability, banchee`s 4^th etc.

The corrected way to fix bladestorm is to keep the old bs but with small changes;

·         Enemies that are marked can be killed by players

·         Make bs be able to kill as many enemies that are within his radius

·         If players don’t want to watch animation press 4 again to come out of it and the clones will continue killing while Ash kills other thing but you can`t use bs again until all marked enemies are dead or press 4 again to cancel bs. So the animation is still there but you have a choice whether you want to watch the animation or not. Also if a teammate is downed ash can jump out of bs and revive the downed teammate.

[Nazrethim]

1 hour ago, (PS4)Vexx757 said:

·        Enemies that are marked can be killed by players

·         Make bs be able to kill as many enemies that are within his radius

·         If players don’t want to watch animation press 4 again to come out of it and the clones will continue killing while Ash kills other thing but you can`t use bs again until all marked enemies are dead or press 4 again to cancel bs. So the animation is still there but you have a choice whether you want to watch the animation or not. Also if a teammate is downed ash can jump out of bs and revive the downed teammate.

While that would certainly make the ability more viable, it's going back to Press4toWin.

You also don't mention the Conclave workings (where the ability is worse than it is in PvE, yes, it can be much worse).

 

[TheOnlyWarBear]

12 hours ago, (PS4)Vexx757 said:

Things wrong with Ash`s bladestorm

 

·         He can`t use bs in a team because other players kill the marked target e.g ember, mirage with simulor, banshee etc.

·         The animation is shown for every enemy marked which means bs is way longer than before.

·         Activating bs is slow because of the two stages.

·         When using bs without a melee weapon is even slower to use before the change.

·         It`s harder to activate bs on a controller than on PC.

·         One enemy mark = 1 sec 30 enemies marked = 30 secs which means bs is too long. Before ash`s clones killed with him shortening bs`s animation now 1^st mark is him doing it which makes bs longer.

·         One enemy mark = 15 energy being invisible = 10 firstly it`s energy consuming and secondly what’s the point of watching the animation if I can`t see myself pulling off sick moves.

·         Weapons can kill better than him e.g tonkor (which for a damage dealing warframe is VERY BAD)

·         He can`t kill in a AOE anymore (can`t kill enemies behind walls) like embers 4^th ability, banchee`s 4^th etc.

The corrected way to fix bladestorm is to keep the old bs but with small changes;

 

·         Enemies that are marked can be killed by players

·         Make bs be able to kill as many enemies that are within his radius

·         If players don’t want to watch animation press 4 again to come out of it and the clones will continue killing while Ash kills other thing but you can`t use bs again until all marked enemies are dead or press 4 again to cancel bs. So the animation is still there but you have a choice whether you want to watch the animation or not. Also if a teammate is downed ash can jump out of bs and revive the downed teammate.

 

11 hours ago, Nazrethim said:

While that would certainly make the ability more viable, it's going back to Press4toWin.

You also don't mention the Conclave workings (where the ability is worse than it is in PvE, yes, it can be much worse).

 

I'd rather have the slight push to win than what we have now... I'm tired of "pressing to do almost nothing" right now... I can't kill as fast, it slows me down, I'm still stuck with the animations.... We need to mention this for the next devstream, we NEED to really put it out there officially that we have had it.

[Nazrethim]

39 minutes ago, Kunsumption said:

 

I'd rather have the slight push to win than what we have now... I'm tired of "pressing to do almost nothing" right now... I can't kill as fast, it slows me down, I'm still stuck with the animations.... We need to mention this for the next devstream, we NEED to really put it out there officially that we have had it.

That's a very valid point.

I have to say that while pre-nerf Blade Storm wasn't perfect, it was a good design. It had a job: wipe the grunts, as elite enemies resisted it, so the intention probably was using Teleport or other means to kill elite enemies first, then Blade Storm to anihilate the grunts. Teleport and Blade Storm didn't quite overlap in that regard, and getting locked was only a problem if you spammed it, as I can testify I rarely got stuck because I made sure no enemy I could get stuck on lived before using BS. The cost was reasonable, and you could add range (or not), while current BS made one stat worthless (range) and another mandatory (effi) so it has less build diversity. It also takes ages to do it's job because Ash attacks everyone individually, which was a problem with original closed beta Blade Storm that got solved by adding clones and splitting the face-stabbin'

So what was the problem with pre-nerf Blade Storm? Power Efficiency. Yup, it wasn't a problem with the ability itself, it was a stupid f*cking broken stat that allowed lazy players to mindlessly spam the ability, in the process getting stuck and preventing teamates from killing high value targets they were stuck on.

In fact I usually received complaints on pugs of being "another spammer" then people congratulating me for NOT spamming and actually using it when it was needed and logical.

Edited September 20, 2017 by Nazrethim

[TheOnlyWarBear]

8 hours ago, Nazrethim said:

That's a very valid point.

I have to say that while pre-nerf Blade Storm wasn't perfect, it was a good design. It had a job: wipe the grunts, as elite enemies resisted it, so the intention probably was using Teleport or other means to kill elite enemies first, then Blade Storm to anihilate the grunts. Teleport and Blade Storm didn't quite overlap in that regard, and getting locked was only a problem if you spammed it, as I can testify I rarely got stuck because I made sure no enemy I could get stuck on lived before using BS. The cost was reasonable, and you could add range (or not), while current BS made one stat worthless (range) and another mandatory (effi) so it has less build diversity. It also takes ages to do it's job because Ash attacks everyone individually, which was a problem with original closed beta Blade Storm that got solved by adding clones and splitting the face-stabbin'

So what was the problem with pre-nerf Blade Storm? Power Efficiency. Yup, it wasn't a problem with the ability itself, it was a stupid f*cking broken stat that allowed lazy players to mindlessly spam the ability, in the process getting stuck and preventing teamates from killing high value targets they were stuck on.

In fact I usually received complaints on pugs of being "another spammer" then people congratulating me for NOT spamming and actually using it when it was needed and logical.

In all utter honesty, if we had pre-"rework" BS, and team members could kill enemies that were marked, and Ash can still have his clones to split the kill time, that would be amazing. And also, pressing the button again, as aforementioned by another Tenno here on the thread, to allow Ash to keep shooting and playing while the Clones help kill is a very viable way to go about the power. It would slow the killing down a whole third, and we could still do more than press the button and just sit and watch as the same TERRIBLE CAMERA animations played for us over and over and over.

[(PSN)ACiDiC_SiNz]

34 minutes ago, Kunsumption said:

In all utter honesty, if we had pre-"rework" BS, and team members could kill enemies that were marked, and Ash can still have his clones to split the kill time, that would be amazing. And also, pressing the button again, as aforementioned by another Tenno here on the thread, to allow Ash to keep shooting and playing while the Clones help kill is a very viable way to go about the power. It would slow the killing down a whole third, and we could still do more than press the button and just sit and watch as the same TERRIBLE CAMERA animations played for us over and over and over.

That makes a lot of sense! I just hope that DE looks at this and consider to refine and adjust ASH in order to synergize his powers like for example "Nidus". PLEASE DE, your community misses the ninja!!!

[Nazrethim]

2 hours ago, Kunsumption said:

In all utter honesty, if we had pre-"rework" BS, and team members could kill enemies that were marked, and Ash can still have his clones to split the kill time, that would be amazing. And also, pressing the button again, as aforementioned by another Tenno here on the thread, to allow Ash to keep shooting and playing while the Clones help kill is a very viable way to go about the power. It would slow the killing down a whole third, and we could still do more than press the button and just sit and watch as the same TERRIBLE CAMERA animations played for us over and over and over.

Well. You see, that's more of a core mechanical problem: enemies being attacked by Ash or his clones are locked in a Finisher animation, just like the melee ones, which make both the attacker and victim inmune to third parties.

The problem with that is that it's too close to "World on Blade Storm". It would only be balanced if BS was cancelable (that is, everyone stops, not just Ash). May include some energy refund depending on the % of attacks still remaining (say 100 energy gets you 20 attacks, canceling at 10 would give you back 50 energy).

The camera problems only come into play with certain enemies (mostly infested), certain tilesets (very small rooms and corridors) and high attack speed values (above ~30% the thing starts getting glitchy)

[TheOnlyWarBear]

11 hours ago, (PS4)ACiDiC_SiNz said:

That makes a lot of sense! I just hope that DE looks at this and consider to refine and adjust ASH in order to synergize his powers like for example "Nidus". PLEASE DE, your community misses the ninja!!!

That is why I suggest we ask about Ash in the next Devstream. As much as we can for them to say ANYTHING about him.

 

9 hours ago, Nazrethim said:

Well. You see, that's more of a core mechanical problem: enemies being attacked by Ash or his clones are locked in a Finisher animation, just like the melee ones, which make both the attacker and victim inmune to third parties.

The problem with that is that it's too close to "World on Blade Storm". It would only be balanced if BS was cancelable (that is, everyone stops, not just Ash). May include some energy refund depending on the % of attacks still remaining (say 100 energy gets you 20 attacks, canceling at 10 would give you back 50 energy).

The camera problems only come into play with certain enemies (mostly infested), certain tilesets (very small rooms and corridors) and high attack speed values (above ~30% the thing starts getting glitchy)

I agree. I mean, one of the cool things about Ash is that he has his hidden blades. Why can't we use those somehow? Like seriously, what if we can run around with our blades, teleporting where we want, and  what if a finishing move is made after teleporting to an enemy and an AoE occurs that sends out clones in a small area to kill who is standing around the enemy you just finished.

[Nazrethim]

Just now, Kunsumption said:

I agree. I mean, one of the cool things about Ash is that he has his hidden blades. Why can't we use those somehow? Like seriously, what if we can run around with our blades, teleporting where we want, and  what if a finishing move is made after teleporting to an enemy and an AoE occurs that sends out clones in a small area to kill who is standing around the enemy you just finished.

I've been posting that kind of thing for months. Here's the lastest version:

Spoiler

 

 

[TheOnlyWarBear]

On 9/20/2017 at 3:28 PM, Nazrethim said:

I've been posting that kind of thing for months. Here's the lastest version:

  Hide contents

 

 

Exactly, this is what I am talking about. We need to ask DE of this stuff and SHOW them what we want. It isn't like Ash is fine and we want him better, ASH ISN'T GOOD ANYMORE. Not like he could be, anyway.

 

He is a pain to acquire, and considering that fact, his uses are minimal to low level solo play. Sure you can mod really hard to make him decent in end game, but come on, only 10 enemies or so in 10 second? with a 4th ability? with about 100 energy for those 10 enemies? REALLY?

 

Again, I URGE everyone who still reads this, post about Ash when the time comes to make a change in the Devstream post. I know the last one was about Plains so I didn't bother... but as soon as the next applicable one hits, I am going off the walls with it. Please guys, rally with me.

[RistN]

7 hours ago, Kunsumption said:

Exactly, this is what I am talking about. We need to ask DE of this stuff and SHOW them what we want. It isn't like Ash is fine and we want him better, ASH ISN'T GOOD ANYMORE. Not like he could be, anyway.

 

He is a pain to acquire, and considering that fact, his uses are minimal to low level solo play. Sure you can mod really hard to make him decent in end game, but come on, only 10 enemies or so in 10 second? with a 4th ability? with about 100 energy for those 10 enemies? REALLY?

 

Again, I URGE everyone who still reads this, post about Ash when the time comes to make a change in the Devstream post. I know the last one was about Plains so I didn't bother... but as soon as the next applicable one hits, I am going off the walls with it. Please guys, rally with me.

Actually Ash is very good warframe still.He always was and always will be.His 4th was a big cheese in this game,I can't say I'm a bit nostalgic about BS because it brought me massive xp and focus back in the day and he is still my top xp earning although i don't use him as much as before.But players always used him to cheese missions neglecting the fact that he is one of few warframes with all 4 very good abilities.

1.His 1st ability:Strap on augment mod Seeking Shuriken and you single shot strip all armor with some 150% strength(not sure,around that number)of any lvl unit or boss.With this build you can have good duration too to stay invisible.Very handy if you ask me.

2.His 2nd:shadow smoke.Synergises with all other 3,making Ash very op.I have build for doing kuva flood missions with maxed redirection,primed vigor,steel fiber and vitality on and of course good dur witch makes Ash the tankiest,most durable invisible warframe.

3.His 3rd.This is his crown jewl.With max eff,reasonable range and dagger weapon with covert lethality mod on it you can one shot ANY LvL enemies.Teleport opens them to finishers and covert lethality one shots.Also in this build i have some duration to do all of this while invisible.Other warframes can open enemies to finishers too but none so effectively.

His 4th was nerfed but it is not ruined.It is still good ability.All other abilities are better after rework.

[Nazrethim]

I'm gonna play ForumSins here:

2 hours ago, RistN said:

Actually Ash is very good warframe still.He always was and always will be.His 4th was a big cheese in this game,I can't say I'm a bit nostalgic about BS because it brought me massive xp and focus back in the day and he is still my top xp earning although i don't use him as much as before.But players always used him to cheese missions neglecting the fact that he is one of few warframes with all 4 very good abilities.

Which only became a problem because of a broken stat, as the ability by itself worked well.

Quote

1.His 1st ability:Strap on augment mod Seeking Shuriken

Mandatory augment.

Quote

and you single shot strip all armor with some 150% strength

Mandatory Stat stack

Quote

 

2.His 2nd:shadow smoke.

Wrong name.

Quote

Synergises with all other 3,

Not really, only with 4th and still not enough.

Quote

making Ash very op.

Because invisibility being broken in general makes this specific frame op.

Quote

I have build for doing kuva flood missions with maxed redirection,primed vigor,steel fiber and vitality on and of course good dur witch makes Ash the tankiest,most durable invisible warframe.

Read previous sin

Quote

With max eff

mandatory VERY broken stat.

Quote

dagger weapon with covert lethality mod

Specific setup.

Quote

Other warframes can open enemies to finishers too but none so effectively.

Ivara begs to differ.

Quote

His 4th was nerfed but it is not ruined.It is still good ability.

Claiming that turning a well designed and balanced ability into a nigh useless energy sink that is inferior to every other ability (including the Defensive one!) at the "kill stuff" department is not ruined, even against all the mathematical and empirical proof.

Quote

All other abilities are better after rework.

BS. Only up aquired was SS being castable on the move (while still being the sh*ttiest invisibility in the game), TP got a buggy tp-to-object that plays mostly against the player and Shuriken got jacksh^t.

 

Number of Sins: 12

Bonus sins for bullsh*t false statements: +5

Total Sins: 17

Veredict: BLADESTORMED!

Edited September 22, 2017 by Nazrethim

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

34 minutes ago, Nazrethim said:

Veredict: FAILSTORMED!

there, fixed that for ya 

[Nazrethim]

1 minute ago, (Xbox One)RDeschain82 said:

there, fixed that for ya 

Thanks

[Gurpgork]

58 minutes ago, Nazrethim said:

Number of Sins: 12

Bonus sins for bullsh*t false statements: +5

Total Sins: 17

Veredict: BLADESTORMED!

Yeah, I think this is my new favorite post on the entire forum. 

[TheOnlyWarBear]

Guys, we are getting off topic from the proposal of re inviting DE to look at Ash through a devstream.

[Hypernaut1]

I think the big problem is that people don't know how to use bladestorm.

Old bladestorm was simply a mage nuke. It was effective but boring. A stance is over done as would be a terrible change.

Bladestorm is not bad enough to need a change, especially when you have ults like Mag's crush that pales in comparison to the utility and damage you can do with BS.

Bladestorm is an ability you need to prepare for. You don't just hit 4, wiggle, hit 4. That means you were unprepared. The correct way to use BS is to keep mark toggled as you approach a group of enemies. He's an assassin, this is him surveying the field. Your approach the enemies, soften them in up with your weapons, fatal teleport the biggest, baddest guy in the room then activate BS to clean up the rest that are still standing. 

Bladestorm compliments his other abilities.

1. It's cheaper when cloaked and can return you to a safe perch. 

2. It works wonderfully in unison with fatal teleport. Ash marks targets even while teleporting. It can also you to soften up a group before teleporting in to kill. BS allows you to decide wether or not you want to advance towards the enemy or kill them from a distance. 

If your teammates are killing enemies faster than you, then you're in a low level mission that doesn't need BS spammed. Simple as that. In sorties my kill count rises in comparison. 

I wouldn't mind some numbers tweaks to Ash, but Ash is already a HIGHLY effective frame in end game. It would be ridiculous to make big change for a frame as endgame viable as Ash. There is no content he struggles in. There are plenty other frames that need the help first. And his ult actually gets better as the difficulty rises. Ignoring armor add

There's a reason why they've remained silent. They've already deliberated on bladestorm for a year, and they were right in implementing the marking mechanic. They tried the other options and didn't like them at all. And they probably balked at the idea of giving him a stance, I don't think they even tried that one.

Ash is fine. He is actually in a better place than many other frames. 

Many of you seem to be more worried about trash mob kill count than anything (my teammates kill faster than me, BS is terrible). If that's the case, pick Ember. BS is a multi enemy, high damage, armor ignoring ability.... It's NOT BAD

Edited September 23, 2017 by Hypernaut1

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

59 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

Bladestorm is an ability you need to prepare for

But why? 

° Within the star chart there are many frames that can wipe a stage and who don't have to prepare and are every bit as powerful as BS is currently, without the effort.  

So I ask again why are we made to prepare for bladestorm? 

Current BS lacks efficiency when in good company. There is no reason to use it, ever in a group setting. I want a reason to use it. 

Edited September 23, 2017 by (XB1)RDeschain82

[(PSN)kingbrown2012]

Bladestorm is a ok ability would be nice for another game or warframe but ash is better off being an exalted frame frfr 

like why can’t ash move like a grinneer maniac 

or teleport freely like tyl regor 

why must ash be so limited in movements 

If not exalted then his wrist blades should be used in 1st and 3rd abilities 

 

[(PSN)kingbrown2012]

And it’s a shame cause without zenurik bladestorm costs too much when people still need smoke screen

Edited September 23, 2017 by (PS4)kingbrown2012

[Hypernaut1]

5 minutes ago, (Xbox One)RDeschain82 said:

But why? 

° Within the star chart there are many frames that can wipe a stage and who don't have to prepare and are every bit as powerful as BS is currently, without the effort. 

So I ask again why are we made to prepare for bladestorm? 

Star chart? Not everything needs to be designed to kill starchart level trash mobs.

Also- can you give and examples of abilities that are as powerful as BS? I just want to see we you're thinking.

Why not prepare? Everything doesnt need to be p4tw. BS is most effective when you toggle mark mode before needing it. If you want a biker, there are other frames for that

[(PSN)kingbrown2012]

13 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

Star chart? Not everything needs to be designed to kill starchart level trash mobs.

Also- can you give and examples of abilities that are as powerful as BS? I just want to see we you're thinking.

Why not prepare? Everything doesnt need to be p4tw. BS is most effective when you toggle mark mode before needing it. If you want a biker, there are other frames for that

Everything are posed to kill startchart level enemies otherwise the level limit would just be level 100

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

12 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

Star chart? Not everything needs to be designed to kill starchart level trash mobs.

Also- can you give and examples of abilities that are as powerful as BS? I just want to see we you're thinking

Everything is designed around star chart play. 

Example: Frosts avalanche, Mags magnitize, Ember WoF, EB Excalibur Spore Sayrn, Speed Nova I could keep going....can kill faster and more efficiently and does not require a phase before the power to "prepare" to be effective. 

Current BS is completely counterproductive to WF gameplay style. 

 

[Hypernaut1]

3 minutes ago, (Xbox One)RDeschain82 said:

 

Current BS is completely counterproductive to WF gameplay style. 

 

This is such an exaggeration. This is why DE ignores this thread. I and many other players do extremely well with Ash. The whine about BS really boils down to "I can't kill faster than Ember on the starchart, waaaahhhhh" yet, I go into sortie and can dispatch multiple heavily armored enemies in no time.  

A frames abilities shouldn't be designed around whether or not it can kill mobs faster than Ember on the starchart. It's one of the most powerful and highest scaling abilities in the game.