Ash Revisited Feedback Megathread

[Somi_xD]

vor 30 Minuten schrieb Hypernaut1:

Have you read the topic? Many complaints are about how teammates can kill faster. 

 

How is COMPLETELY scrapping the ability to turn it into a stance a SMALL suggestion?

I see many asking for an ability lifted wholesale from other frames. BS is Ashes identity. People say it cost too much, too hard to target and too slow. Well, if i am killing high level enemies faster than everyone else, how is that too slow? 

and finally, if the ability works, whats the point of reworking? Just because you don't like it? then choose another frame. I'm just saying my piece. You dont have to like it and i dont need to be part of small echo chamber

 

1. Which topic? Of the thread? The topic is "Ash Revisited Feedback Megathread"
(the main complaint is, that you stuck in the animation and it was "pretty slow" so it took a time to get out of it and regain control
Now it is "faster" because it is limited to 3 times attacking per enemy)

2. Read again
- small Suggestions in form of tweaks (small changes)
- big Suggestions in form of Reworks (where an ability can even be "scraped"
Is it so hard to connect a Stance idea to "big suggestion"? .....

3. It worked better befor the rework X'D... finally works ....
I like the idea but the problem is, that DE missed to fix the MAIN PROBLEM majority complained about ....
I don't care if your are against a rework or not, or if you are fine with the current ash - what buggs me most about people like you, that you don't even try to understand the problem ....

4. Let me help you and show you the difference in small suggestions and big suggestions ....

I tried to sum up the overall problems with Ash since he was Released in a very short form - and how augments and the Rework affected them. + "small suggestions" in the end.

Spoiler

 

Am 2.1.2018 um 23:59 schrieb Somi_xD:

Just coming from a guy who played Ash since he was available...
Abillities befor "Rework" and  Augments:
1. Shuriken
Meh ... pretty much useless - i used it only... to acutally use it ... at least one time per game >.>

2. Smokescreen
... mh it was good - his second best ability, but it had many problems
Compared to Lokis invisibility it is really sad, so sad you can only laugh.
Ashs S.S. did get every negative aspect in terms of invisibility abilities.
- Lower duration
- only castable while standing/stop moving
- has a relative long casting animation
- not silenced while invisible (ok - they took it away from lokis invisibility not so long ago, right way to give silince mods a meaning to be used with loki)
+ ok S.S. costs 15 Energy less, it's not like it makes that much of a difference...

3. Teleport
Good, also opens up for a finisher... but without invisibility you are pretty much dead on high lvl
- Limited to enemies and Players
- Alerts enemies (no stealth multi)
- finishers are pretty slow (except you go really fast melee weapon) and easy to miss

4. Bladestorm
Spam it - it's your best card!
Even if you need to wait out the animation at higher lvls... and it takes to long... you fall through the ground ... meh
At least it killed.

After "Rework":
1. Shuriken
-

2. Smokescreen
+ castable while moving and in air (yeeey)

3. Teleport
+/- you can target everything with a healthbar - wooho one step in the right direction...
So it is still a semi-usefull traveling skill - but already better

4. Bladestorm
Uff ... nice try DE but still failed to get rid of  the main problem people complain
- cost increased (passivly and depending on the situation, but for beginniers it is definitly increased and kill other builds pretty easy)
(wooho - you get the cost back if you they get killed by something different than bladestorm .... why not use a good primary instead?
also you need to spend energy befor even getting something)
-/(+) while invisible energy cost gets into a OK range ....
- it is much slower (guys - it is a hord game ~ speed speed speed) .... you need to targed the enemies you wanna kill (sure you can spin the mouse but srsly, you are getting stupid with this and still more effort then befor)
- still stuck in this animation
People arguing "oooh it safes you if you are in danger" .... wow - - - you spend an great amount of energy to EVENTUALLY safe your As(s)h (pun intended)
Those people don't realize, that theyself say that Ash's ULTIMATE got reduced to a mere emergency support X'D
That irony ....

Also calling this a "Rework" is really unfitting for some tweaks

Augments
Augments srsly should have been done better over the board - i mean it's a good thought but the implementation .... isn't the best
1. Shuriken
+ finally usefull

2. Smokescreen
+/- Yeah i can turn smokescreen into a team support ability !!!
*tried it out*
Hey guys - - - where are you going, i have free invisibility for you all ....
Out of pity someone came across "c'mon gimme a shot" - - - missed him, wasn't close enough

3. Teleport
+/- YEAH cool - this actually solves some problems of this ability
...But it sounds more like tweaks for the ability itself and not an mod to alter the use of the ability
The only REAL addition and not a fix, is the energy return on killing enemies
~ The additional dmg "fixes" the loss of the stealth multi, but still gives the dmg even out of stealth (so this is kind of 50/50)
~The auto-finisher nearly nullifies the chance to miss the finisher

4. Bladestorm
Melee duration counter increased ... really?
Instead of avoiding the animation and charge clones to kill, while you can freely move, not wasting the first seconds of the combo counter in the animation, actually USE it and keep it up ourself - instead we still stuck in the animation
With the "reworked" Bladestorm even more useless, because you need the time to acutally mark the enemies ....
Really lazy ....
It really is useless - especially with all the melee mods increasing the counter ....

Through all this time many player had such great ideas to give Ash a real rework, me included.
It doesn't even need that much (if DE wants to go an short way)

1.Shuriken
+ make it take use of the Melee multiplier ... BAAAM usefull

2. Smoke Screen
(or at least the augment smoke shadow)
+ a cloud that stays for the duration, and allies can jump in to make use of it
+ it's affected by range
+ enemies in the cloud are open for finisher

3. Teleport
+/- Shorten the Range, but make us teleport the full distance until we hit something (like the gound) and if aimed at something with a healthbar we are teleported to this point (if it is in range)

4. Bladestorm
Let the actual Ash(the player) not go through the animation, just let it make some clones (or at least make this the actual augments effect..)

Those few ideas are just the easiest and laziest (but still improving) ones.
There are so many great REWORK ideas out there in this forum.

 

Here a good big suggestions (try to read it entirely - Naz even made it in a way to keep Bladestorm and not scrap it )

 

Edited January 9, 2018 by Somi_xD

[Somi_xD]

Meh

Edited January 9, 2018 by Somi_xD

[Nazrethim]

2 hours ago, Hypernaut1 said:

I just played a grinner survival sortie with Ash and easily got the most kills. There was no energy issues, not more than any other frame. Other players were not melting these high level and high armor grineer with their weapons before i could kill them.

You probably went into a PUG with random players who didn't bring effective AoE.

Quote

I simply went into melee, quickly built up my combo meter to 2x+, while easily triple marking groups of enemies.

That's 45 energy gone for every enemy until it's killed.

Quote

Bladestorm was killing them with ease, and leaving others to bleed to death. For defense i was able to use smokeshadow or rely on arcane trickery (only 1) or i was able to activate bladestorm to escape a scorch or fire blast. There were so many enemies, i barely even used my seeking shuriken. Fatal teleport was used to take out energy leeching eximus or to advance Ash safely to another group.

Reliance on an Arcane. Smoke Shadow is well known to be a liability in general. And BS wasn't killing despite triple marking and combo power.

Quote

Now, the main drawback was the animation, which i had sped up with a rakta dark dagger.

Melee weapon doesn't affect BS animation. Only Attack Speed mods that aren't Berserker, or Arcanes. You just were using a melee weapon well known for crippling enemy forces with Viral AoE (and still BS left some to die of bleed!)

Quote

While i felt it was pretty fast enough, there were two moments where i wasnt able to revive someone in time because i was bladestorming 10+ enemies. This could be seen as a flaw with the ability, or just a balance of power.

Too slow for a Horde game. Where did we hear that?

Quote

All in all, talks of bladestorm being "horrible" is ridiculous. Ill admit that on lower levels, Ash doesnt cruise to most kills as easily....but does he HAVE to? Getting the "most kills" shouldn't be what its judged by. Bladestorm is a high damage,, but slower ultimate that shines when enemies get tough, It fits his assassin theme.

BS is pointless at all levels below endurance, and subpar at best at endurance levels. Requiring specific builds to be actually usable.

Quote

i didnt have a crazy build. Just energy efficiency, rage, 1 arcane set, naramon passives and a sentinel with vacuum. Energy economy wasn't a huge issue. Marking enemies was fast and happened while i was using melee. There was no 4, wiggle, 4. 

Probably maxed Effi, otherwise that thing is unusable, Rage is standard for melee frames so that's okay. Note how you require 3 mod slots into energy economy just to fuel it's use, meanwhile you could play with all augs and no effi and do just fine or better by not using BS. The ability flat out doesn't work on it's own.

The "4, wiggle, 4" is usually used because that's what the game points the player to do with it's visual and audio cues, unless you play with all effects turned off and don't know the marking mode turns everything sepia.

Quote

i dont know what some of you find so difficult about it. Its not suppose to be a nuke button, but its very effective if used right.

You could have easily outperformed it with some gunplay mixed in between. Or just using SScreen and some SShuriken and FTeleport mixed in between. I doubt you actually used melee combos, merely relying on ol memestrike and reach or just CL.

Edited January 9, 2018 by Nazrethim

[Hypernaut1]

37 minutes ago, Nazrethim said:

You probably went into a PUG with random players who didn't bring effective AoE.

That's 45 energy gone for every enemy until it's killed.

Reliance on an Arcane. Smoke Shadow is well known to be a liability in general. And BS wasn't killing despite triple marking and combo power.

Melee weapon doesn't affect BS animation. Only Attack Speed mods that aren't Berserker, or Arcanes. You just were using a melee weapon well known for crippling enemy forces with Viral AoE (and still BS left some to die of bleed!)

Too slow for a Horde game. Where did we hear that?

BS is pointless at all levels below endurance, and subpar at best at endurance levels. Requiring specific builds to be actually usable.

Probably maxed Effi, otherwise that thing is unusable, Rage is standard for melee frames so that's okay. Note how you require 3 mod slots into energy economy just to fuel it's use, meanwhile you could play with all augs and no effi and do just fine or better by not using BS. The ability flat out doesn't work on it's own.

The "4, wiggle, 4" is usually used because that's what the game points the player to do with it's visual and audio cues, unless you play with all effects turned off and don't know the marking mode turns everything sepia.

You could have easily outperformed it with some gunplay mixed in between. Or just using SScreen and some SShuriken and FTeleport mixed in between. I doubt you actually used melee combos, merely relying on ol memestrike and reach or just CL.

Wow, you need to resort to making up a bunch of excuses as to why I was effective. You make a bunch of incorrect assumptions to try and prove your point.

Anyway.... It's there for people to read. 

 bladestorm can be used effectively. Maybe I'll get around to creating a video.

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

27 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

bladestorm can be used effectively.

I can use it effectively too, it's still bad design. Make a video building up your combo meter BSing sortie eximus units. 

Edited January 9, 2018 by (XB1)RDeschain82

[blaes]

3 hours ago, Hypernaut1 said:

Bladestorm is a high damage,, but slower ultimate that shines when enemies get tough, It fits his assassin theme

It would fit his elusive assassin them even better if instead of performing the finishers himself, it was done by ghostly translucent clones. That way there would be no "getting stuck in animations", even if that means lowering the damage per hit a bit. That would be such a huge quality-of-life improvement that it would be an experience-changing tweak.

 

Myself, I don't like the marking mechanism much and I'd rather have a stance with combo spawning clones who would do the finisher attacks, but that's up to personal preferences.

[Neightrix]

3 hours ago, Somi_xD said:

1. Which topic? Of the thread? The topic is "Ash Revisited Feedback Megathread"
(the main complaint is, that you stuck in the animation and it was "pretty slow" so it took a time to get out of it and regain control
Now it is "faster" because it is limited to 3 times attacking per enemy)

Oh no, god no. It is much slower than it used to be. (I'm not saying you're saying it's faster, just disagreeing with that mentality) Not just the targeting but the execution as well. I know this thread is massive but this has been discussed, so I hope no one thinks it is faster now.

Edited January 10, 2018 by Neightrix

[Somi_xD]

vor 5 Minuten schrieb Neightrix:

Oh no, god no. It is much slower than it used to be. (I'm not saying you're saying it's faster, just disagreeing with that mentality) Not just the targeting but the execution as well. I know this thread is massive but this has been discussed. Previously, Ash attacked with his clones at the same time, sharing targets. Even if you targeted 18 enemies Ash often didn't attack more than 6. Sure, you could get "stuck" on ancient disruptors, or very hearty enemies if you didn't have combo built, but the *vast* majority of the time it was several times faster in execution. This is the biggest criticism of Blade Storm and why the rework is considered a large step backwards by many - and why players who simply hate Ash love it so much.

The only real fix is that you can't stuck on eximie or ancients or other heavy units at high lvl.

The activation was faster befor, now it takes longer (with the same amount of enemies) the animation was potentially longer, now it is limited to max 3 marks per enemy so overall you will get abit faster out of the animation.

In the end there isn't a real difference in overall Speed.

Now it isn't that simple to nuke with it,

[Neightrix]

2 hours ago, Hypernaut1 said:

Wow, you need to resort to making up a bunch of excuses as to why I was effective. You make a bunch of incorrect assumptions to try and prove your point.

Anyway.... It's there for people to read. 

 bladestorm can be used effectively. Maybe I'll get around to creating a video.

Blade Storm is worse than every dps kit up to level 50 or so, and it is worse than any decent melee weapon at any level, because it's so incredibly slow. We understand it does true damage and procs slash - that's great and definitely a truckload of damage, but even a Mk1-Braton can kill any enemy if given enough time. The issue is it's boring and far too slow to compete keep up with any decent player with damaging-oriented builds. I suppose it would be different if Ash's kit did anything except invisibility and killing, but if a frame's theme is literally to kill bad guys it needs to keep up with the pace. And even beyond the damage and relative pace, watching a cinematic for much of the game is uninspiring. The original stated goal of the rework was to make it less cinematic, and it did the opposite.

Edited January 10, 2018 by Neightrix

[Hypernaut1]

3 minutes ago, Neightrix said:

The original stated goal of the rework was to make it less cinematic, and it did the opposite.

Source? I remember the developer stated goal was to make it more interactive. 

[Somi_xD]

Am 15.6.2016 um 00:04 schrieb [DE]Danielle:

We decided to rework Blade Storm after almost a full year of the same themed feedback showing up. We often heard and experienced a power that doesn't allow for player participation beyond pressing 4 once and waiting. We have been increasingly committed to participatory powers (especially ultimates) and focused on emphasizing that for Blade Storm.

Blade Storm Changes:

• Blade Storm now has a new 'Mark Enemy' mode that is activated when you hit 4. Ash enters target mode, which you can freely target enemies with your reticule up to 3 times each for attack. Once you're satisfied, press 4 again, Blade Storm begins and all targeted enemies are attacked!
• Each mark costs Energy (15) which is affected by Mods. If a marked enemy is killed by a squad mate, you will get the energy back. 
• Marks made while invisible by any source will have a cheaper base cost (10). 
• Enemies killed by Blade Storm will dissolve, leaving no corpse behind to detect!

Teleport Changes:

• Teleport will now allow you to target anything with a health bar! Instead of being limited to Teleporting to allies or enemies, you can now teleport to objects. 

Smokescreen Changes:

• Smoke Screen can now be cast while running (no lower body movement lock).
• Smoke Screen can now be cast while in-air! 

Please note that we will be closely monitoring your practical feedback - please feel free to share videos and discussions after playing this rework. It'll help us if you include details on your build used too. 

Edit: Non-constructive feedback, dev-bashing, and any other content that violates Code of Conduct will be removed.

Edit: All related threads will be merged here. Thank you! 

Highlighted extra 4 you, the second scentence :*

Edited January 10, 2018 by Somi_xD

[MuscleBeach]

What if they just gave it an activation prerequisite? Kind of like Nidus. Every kill gives you a Storm point, blood rush point, whatever point. Every 20 points you can cast it. Maybe affected by duration. Stealth kills count as 3 points. Ash must get the killing blow. Kills from BS don't count towards this. They can revert the skill back to how it was before. 

You get the BS you had back in your glory days but now you can't spam it, which was really the only issue people had with it. 

[Hypernaut1]

1 hour ago, Somi_xD said:

Highlighted extra 4 you, the second scentence :*

That doesn't say less cinematic. It says they wanted to make it more interactive... As I said. Note key word "participatory".

But im not going to argue this with you any longer. It's clear they did what they intended to do. We don't get to tell them what they meant. Dev silence on the issue should be a clue. In fact, I spoke directly to Scott at Tenno con and he seemed pleased with it. He didn't even entertain the idea that Ash was weak, but he did mention wanting to buff Mag after her rework.

Edited January 10, 2018 by Hypernaut1

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

7 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

I spoke directly to Scott at Tenno con and he seemed pleased with it

If that is the case there is no reason for the ash feedback thread to still be open after over a year of feedback. 

No I think there are other frames like Khora and Zephyr and Umbra that are probably taking priority. I think they will look a BS again. Before he gets unvaulted for sure. 

Dev Stream 102 is this Friday. 

Edited January 10, 2018 by (XB1)RDeschain82

[Hypernaut1]

17 minutes ago, (Xbox One)RDeschain82 said:

If that is the case there is no reason for the ash feedback thread to still be open after over a year of feedback. 

No I think there are other frames like Khora and Zephyr and Umbra that are probably taking priority. I think they will look a BS again. Before he gets unvaulted for sure. 

Dev Stream 102 is this Friday. 

Possible. We haven't heard anything on Mag yet either, so I can't put too much stock in his stance at tennocon. 

Ash went through a number of concepts before they settled on the current iteration. It's rare that they completely gut a frames core identity ability to replace it with something else. At most, we'll probably get some numbers tweaks and maybe some synergy or two.

[Shad0wWatcher]

2 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

Possible. We haven't heard anything on Mag yet either, so I can't put too much stock in his stance at tennocon. 

Ash went through a number of concepts before they settled on the current iteration. It's rare that they completely gut a frames core identity ability to replace it with something else. At most, we'll probably get some numbers tweaks and maybe some synergy or two.

This legit sounds about the most realistic decision they would make 

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

20 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

Possible. We haven't heard anything on Mag yet either, so I can't put too much stock in his stance at tennocon. 

Ash went through a number of concepts before they settled on the current iteration. It's rare that they completely gut a frames core identity ability to replace it with something else. At most, we'll probably get some numbers tweaks and maybe some synergy or two.

That is accurate, realistically I can see that they will probably revert full damage BS from 3 marks to 1. Considering DEs history with "reworking" frames...

But until this feedback thread is closed I'll keep pushing my idea to get rid of the marking system, and move the cinematic to his 3. 

If they ever bring Tennocon to Texas I will make it my priority to get a one v one with Scott. 

Edited January 10, 2018 by (XB1)RDeschain82

[Hypernaut1]

38 minutes ago, (Xbox One)RDeschain82 said:

That is accurate, realistically I can see that they will probably revert full damage BS from 3 marks to 1. Considering DEs history with "reworking" frames..it's always the path least resistance. 

But until this feedback thread is closed I'll keep pushing my idea to get rid of the marking system, and move the cinematic to his 3. 

If they ever bring Tennocon to Texas I will make it my priority to get a one v one with Scott. 

The thing with triple marks is that I kind of like the concept of increasing BS damage, but don't like the feeling of being "short changed" with one mark. 

I like the uniqueness of the marking system. If they looked at Ash again I would hope they add other benefits to marking. I had the idea of turning his 1 into a single clone attack when an enemy is marked. This way you could throw clones, like in one of Steve's old concepts. I would have enemies affected by the smoke shadow stun be instantly marked. This way you can stun,mark and kill and a small group with ease. A more controversial idea would be to work automatic weapon finisher on teleport to a marked enemy, but without the extra damage or energy return of the augment. 

Id tweak the speed of bladestorm, and I'd off load more of the stabs to just clones the more enemies you have marked.  For example, after 5 enemies, Ash only takes part in every other kill. I wouldn't completely get rid of cutscenes though, as it provides style, utility and balance to ability. 

Edited January 10, 2018 by Hypernaut1

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

30 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

I would have enemies affected by the smoke shadow stun be instantly marked.

I do like this idea, and you know it isn't all that different from my Nier: Automata  BS rework idea. Cheers!

Edited January 10, 2018 by (XB1)RDeschain82

[DonVon]

Le 2018/1/8 à 00:44, Nazrethim a dit :

As @Hypernaut1 said (in a way), that's exageration. There are worse frames than Ash. Outside of his 4th being garbage his other abilities are good and at most could use some minor but life-changing tweaks.

Banshee's 1 is a shotgun close range attack, while Ash can almost snipe with Shuriken. The problem with Ash's 1 is mostly lack of control. You can aim at a target and the shuriken will seek a completely unrelated one, even invulnerable targets like Kuva for defenses.

Actually, both are almost equal in terms of energy/duration ratios.

Look at the math here:

  Masquer le contenu

Smoke Screen: 35 Energy for 8s

Invisibility: 50 energy for 12s

If you cast SScreen 10 times you use 350 energy for 80s

SPending 350 (7 casts) energy on Invisibility yields 84s

 

This is actually a completely different ability. Loki's is designed around trickery, support or CC. Ash's is designed around closing the gap and assassinations. While it's true the augment is required (due to the automatic finisher being pretty much a requirement) it has excellent scaling, so good that it outperforms BS at endurance levels.

This is sadly true. While Ash is powerful enough on his own to carry his own weight, regarding the team he is a liability as he lacks effective CC, Support or Mass Killing power to be valuable.

 

1. range is a bad point to argue on. how many occasions would you need the armor shred/damage for 2 enemies from 168 meters away? banshee's 1 has an innate 15 meters range which already surpassed some shotguns' damage fall off range, not to mention we can get up to 280% range with the plain mods now, giving you a total of 42 meters in a sector which is actually a huge area in front of you, more than enough for your +range riven and primed reach melee's maiming strike to deal follow up true damage to those red-healthbar mobs.

2. so, inferior, yeah? i guess?

3. if you relay on his 3 with augment in endurance you are probably doing it wrong..... due to the fact that it is single target it is less efficient and more exhausting than spamming e. opening up finisher alone is enough for covert lethality if you are concerned about scaling, quite a few frames has an aoe ability for this (banshee can also open up finishers for 'scalability'), for instance excal's blind. Adding extra damage multipliers to deal with an enemy that has already out-scaled all your other options is unnecessary. For a gap closer, Valkyr's 1 has a 75 meters range, same as that of loki's, while this only has 60 due to the fact that 'it is more than a gap closer'.

@Hypernaut1 as for 'inferior', i meant his instrumental purpose. The counter examples you might probably mention are Zephyr and Atlas, but first their skill sets do not have much overlap with other frames, and Zephyr is good at pakour (could even be better than nova in some map layout) while Atlas's current instrumental purpose comes from his 1 and aug3. I can't really think of any other 'cult' frames which people love to bring up on this topic.

Edited January 10, 2018 by DonVon

[Somi_xD]

vor 7 Stunden schrieb Hypernaut1:

That doesn't say less cinematic. It says they wanted to make it more interactive... As I said. Note key word "participatory".

But im not going to argue this with you any longer. It's clear they did what they intended to do. We don't get to tell them what they meant. Dev silence on the issue should be a clue. In fact, I spoke directly to Scott at Tenno con and he seemed pleased with it. He didn't even entertain the idea that Ash was weak, but he did mention wanting to buff Mag after her rework.

If you analyse the scentence with keywords, then you should note them all.
"We often heard and experienced a power that doesn't allow for player participation beyond pressing 4 once and waiting. "
That's right - the "participatory" aspect is the problem, but the reasons for this limitation are "pressing 4 once" only to "wait"
So we know, that the player is limited in participating, and the reasons are pressing 4 once and waiting.
But from what part we are excluded? There are 2 options in regard of the Bladestorm, because we have actually 2 reasons.
1. The skill Bladestorm = pressing 4 once
2. The game itself = waiting (the cinematic part)

First point was addressed by advancing the skill it self with a "mode" where you mark manually.
So they took the marking and made it the job of the player not the skill - fine that's ok but do we get something for slowing down the gameplay? Nope.

Second point, they tried to address this as well, by limiting the marks so you don't stuck.
This fixes a rather small problem, because this only happens at a very high lvl and only with rarer enemies - so it was an impactfull problem, but a rare one.

Now they wanted our feedback with this thread. What the reactions (i will not quote anything, 1. because it would be to much 2. because it would seem selective to others)
We see, that generally people are not that negative with the actuall change, the marking part.
On the second page we see, that more and more people start to notice, that the main problem people complained about still is there "to be in an animation where you lose control of the action".
If we go further with the pages (people actually use it more an more) people realize, that BS got actually nerfed in the amount of enemies, energy economy, and that we still have the to wait till the cutsceen ends untill we can participate again.
In the end - DE missunderstood the problem and set the priority on letting players pariticpate more in BS, not in removing ash from the "cinematic part" so we can participate in the game/mission etc..

So back to your point, that DE actually achived what they wanted:
Yes - DE is fine with the rework, otherwise it wouldn't be released like it was.
But what was the main goal of DE? Not the actual rework, but addressing the main issue the player are complaining about (and they wanted to achieve this with the rework).
If they would do this for themselfs and not the players, they wouldn't ask for actual feedback.
So in the end, they might succeed in making a rework, but not in addressing the problem the player still have.
 

 

Edited January 10, 2018 by Somi_xD

[Somi_xD]

vor 8 Stunden schrieb MuscleBeach:

What if they just gave it an activation prerequisite? Kind of like Nidus. Every kill gives you a Storm point, blood rush point, whatever point. Every 20 points you can cast it. Maybe affected by duration. Stealth kills count as 3 points. Ash must get the killing blow. Kills from BS don't count towards this. They can revert the skill back to how it was before. 

You get the BS you had back in your glory days but now you can't spam it, which was really the only issue people had with it. 

Had a similar idea ^^

Am 4.10.2017 um 05:18 schrieb Somi_xD:

Bladestorm

Activation and Use
(The numbers are only examples)
1. Bladestorm will be a time based Ability

- you can have a maximum of 60 seconds
- Each kill adds 4 seconds to your Bladestorm counter
- you only get the time for kills out of Bladestorm -> means you can't extend bladestorms time while in bladestorm
- you need 30 seconds in the counter or more to actually enable Bladestorm
- but you can disable it anytime
- duration is not affected by duration mods

2. Ash changes his Melee Weapon to his Hidden blades

- hidden blades have their own move set and Stats (those stats are affected by the type of melee weapon you are wearing)
- they take over the mods of your actual melee weapon

3.1 Each mark counts as an mulitiplier for your other Abilities and attacks.
(Those stats are only examples) (red only ash - green for teammates)

- 1 Marker = 50% dmg more for Shuriken, and Stealth/finisher dmg for Teleport - Melee weapons 25% Dmg -  20% for Primary/Secondary - Status chance and duration 20% (also would count for the Shuriken augment) - teammates do 15% more dmg on them with anything
- 2 Marker = all those stats doubled ( 100%, 50% 40%, 40%, 30%)
- 3 Marker = again doubled ( 200%, 100%, 80%, 80%, 60% )
- Marked enemies are vulnurable to finisher, if you are in stealth -> means even if they are alerted, if they are marked and you are invisible, you can finish them
- Marks are not stackable by mulitiple Ashes, means another ash can't give a 3 marked enemy again 3 marks, BUT another ash can add the second or third mark

3.2 (My favorite)

- you can only have 1 Mark per enemy
- you can only Mark have 30 active Marks at the same time
- Marked Enemies will be affected this way ( the part from 3.1)
[- 200% dmg more for Shuriken, and Stealth/finisher dmg for Teleport
- Melee weapons 100% Dmg
- 80% Dmg for Primary/Secondary
- Status chance and duration 80% (also would count for the Shuriken augment)
- teammates do 60% more dmg on them with anything ]

4. As soon as you hit an marked enemy the Mark(s) dissappear

- marked enemies stay marked, even if you deactivate Bladestorm or it runs out
- if a teammate attacks an marked enemy, only for them the mark disappaers (so every hero gets his own marks)
- the extra dmg for teammates does not count for other Ashes, but instead every other ash will get the ash only bonus (the difference here is, those marks will also disappear for every other Ashes as soon as an Ash triggers those marks)

[Hypernaut1]

1 hour ago, Somi_xD said:

But what was the main goal of DE? Not the actual rework, but addressing the main issue the player are complaining about (and they wanted to achieve this with the rework).

If they would do this for themselfs and not the players, they wouldn't ask for actual feedback.
So in the end, they might succeed in making a rework, but not in addressing the problem the player still have.

I think you're mistaken in thinking that the rework was mainly about addressing player feedback. It was about a change in their own design philosophy. Feedback is used for suggestions and taken into consideration. They don't design the game by committee. Never said they would. They make feedback changes when that feedback matches and makes sense with their own internal design goals. 

There is also the feedback that we don't see. Vocal forum warriors is only a small part of the feedback DE considers. DE also has factual data based on what people are actually doing in the game. So no matter how much people yell in one thread that bladestorm is horrible (or great), DE can actually look at in game statistics to see how well or bad it performs. If they were to look at a snap shot of my data using bladestorm, they would see that I was more than effective while using the move. They would see that I used it often enough and that it was responsible for several kills. If they were to notice that Ash players don't use it at all then it would probably prompt change. We don't know what they see unless they share it.

Anecdotal evidence on forums is only part of the feedback they get.

Edited January 10, 2018 by Hypernaut1

[Somi_xD]

vor 35 Minuten schrieb Hypernaut1:

I think you're mistaken in thinking that the rework was mainly about addressing player feedback. It was about a change in their own design philosophy. Feedback is used for suggestions and taken into consideration. They don't design the game by committee. Never said they would. They make feedback changes when that feedback matches and makes sense with their own internal design goals. 

There is also the feedback that we don't see. Vocal forum warriors is only a small part of the feedback DE considers. DE also has factual data based on what people are actually doing in the game. So no matter how much people yell in one thread that bladestorm is horrible (or great), DE can actually look at in game statistics to see how well or bad it performs. If they were to look at a snap shot of my data using bladestorm, they would see that I was more than effective while using the move. They would see that I used it often enough and that it was responsible for several kills. If they were to notice that Ash players don't use it at all then it would probably prompt change. We don't know what they see unless they share it.

Anecdotal evidence on forums is only part of the feedback they get.

Am 15.6.2016 um 00:04 schrieb [DE]Danielle:

We decided to rework Blade Storm after almost a full year of the same themed feedback showing up. We often heard and experienced a power that doesn't allow for player participation beyond pressing 4 once and waiting. We have been increasingly committed to participatory powers (especially ultimates) and focused on emphasizing that for Blade Storm.

Edit:
Do not misunderstand me - you are mostly right with your comment.
It needs to fit their own design goals, there are not only forum feedback - i know how those things work, that's not the point.
But data statistics in a power creepe hord game are .....not as relieable as for a Beat'em up (not saing they are worthless etc. it still has many weight, more than just forum feedback)

But without our feedback/complaints about Bladestorm, they would have never changed it.
There was no need to change the ability, except for the complaints, that we stuck in the cinematic trailer.

 

Edited January 10, 2018 by Somi_xD

[Nazrethim]

10 hours ago, Hypernaut1 said:

The thing with triple marks is that I kind of like the concept of increasing BS damage, but don't like the feeling of being "short changed" with one mark. 

That would only work if the additional marks didn't cost any energy, or just costed a fraction of it.

10 hours ago, Hypernaut1 said:

I like the uniqueness of the marking system. If they looked at Ash again I would hope they add other benefits to marking. I had the idea of turning his 1 into a single clone attack when an enemy is marked. This way you could throw clones, like in one of Steve's old concepts. I would have enemies affected by the smoke shadow stun be instantly marked. This way you can stun,mark and kill and a small group with ease. A more controversial idea would be to work automatic weapon finisher on teleport to a marked enemy, but without the extra damage or energy return of the augment. 

Id tweak the speed of bladestorm, and I'd off load more of the stabs to just clones the more enemies you have marked.  For example, after 5 enemies, Ash only takes part in every other kill. I wouldn't completely get rid of cutscenes though, as it provides style, utility and balance to ability. 

Tweaks that could fix BS:

-Ash only does 1 execution, the rest are done (all at the same time) by clones/afterimages/whatever.

-Marking Mode costs 100 energy to mark and it's timed with automatic (time runs out) or manual (press 4 again) activation.

-No multimark, it adds nothing to the ability.