Ash Revisited Feedback Megathread

[(PSN)Agent_Raiken]

Smokescreen is awesome now.
Teleport i guess is better but i cant help but feel like it makes my issue with it even worse. Being that most of the time, an ally or companion gets in the way and i end up teleporting to them instead. But its not a huge issue. (Free aim 10m dash and attack into the closest enemy would be my change)

Bladestorm is unfortunate. Its the same but slower and less efficient.
A simple quick fix would be to just have a Shadow Clone immediately attack a marked enemy, although that sounds like a quick way to dump out all of your energy.
My preferred change would be to keep the mark mode (because MAAANNN that mode is cool) but not for marking. Instead give him increased  movement speed, Slash damage, slash proc chance and evasiveness (reduce enemy accuracy). Meanwhile shuriken is changed to the deathmark while bladestorm is active. Marked enemies have some sort of de-buff (Armor and shield removal, guaranteed Slash procs on all damage, shadow clones attack with anyone melee-ing a marked enemy,  or something like that) and teleport instead does the bladestorm animation. 

 

[Teshin_Dax]

the rework is perfect!
Only 1 wish left ... could you please increase the shuriken from 2 to  atleast 4?
It isnt viable enough... even with augment ...  would be a very nice change

[TheGoodDarius]

1 minute ago, Vifany said:

Frankly if DE merge 2nd and 4th together and add some other *@##$ ninja move istead 2nd it will be quiet nice. At least it will make some poit out of that creepy smokes and B&W filter.
 

Is it another "Guess what devs want you to do" game or some sandboxxy pve shooter with builds and stuff? Instead of encouraging us to use invis they should, nope, must just add it to 4th. And encourage us to give them some money for good work.

I dunno, I guess he kinda gives up that stealthy Warframe vibe, as in one that use invisibility to protect himself, but I might be mistaken. After all both the standard Ash's description:

Ash is great for players looking for a more stealthy approach to combat. Lethal abilities are complemented by powers of distraction.

And the Primed one: 
Distraction and subterfuge become lethal weapons with Ash Prime. Featuring altered mod polarities for greater customization.

Clearly state that he is a front line trooper right?

 

[venon23]

WHat ash have a steath power no sht 
yea mate since range on ash are bigger now u can focus on duration and make something cool with him like loki for dmg 
exeple i drop my survviel mods from ash im most of the time invisible now assaccin mod activatetd love the rework

[Dwolfknight]

1,2,3 and 4 : no

5 : maybe

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

16 minutes ago, Legion216 said:

Not sure if this has been posted here yet, but Brozime has made some pretty good constructive suggestions. 

 

 

 

Sure, anything is better than current ash. ty for the post.

[An8rchy]

22 minutes ago, Daggerpaw1 said:

His invisibility doesn't last long enough

Mod for it

23 minutes ago, Daggerpaw1 said:

Bladestorm is useless when there's an Ancient Healer in the vicinity.

use actual weapons 

23 minutes ago, Daggerpaw1 said:

The energy cost per kill on Ash is exponentially higher than other frames. Too high.

Mod for it

23 minutes ago, Daggerpaw1 said:

Bladestorm no longer attacks enemies until they die

It wasnt suppost to

23 minutes ago, Daggerpaw1 said:

The uninterruptable animation right after Ash exits Bladestorm is just long enough to get him killed.

how is 0.3 long ?

[Valthryn]

3 hours ago, An8rchy said:

Mod for it

use actual weapons 

Mod for it

It wasnt suppost to

how is 0.3 long ?

1. You can't, you have to mod for efficiency and strength with some duration.

2. That's not the point of a warframe ability

3. See 1. Even with maximum efficiency and a maxed Zenurik focus school, the energy drain is still much higher than other frames.

4. It's borderline worthless in high end content if it doesn't because the mark system is too clunky to work properly.

5. Because it was long enough to get me 1 shot.

Edited November 26, 2016 by Daggerpaw1

[Messaiga]

I think some of the ideas here are good and creative, but I also think the new marking system for Ash has a lot of hidden potential.  Rather than pigeonholing it into Bladestorm, I think there could be an interesting application of it.  I like many of your ideas so I want to refine it a bit.

Shuriken: Rather than have elemental shurikens, why not just shurikens that inflict different physical damage?  Slash shurikens deal more damage (Slash proc), Puncture shurikens make enemies deal less damage (Puncture proc), and Impact shurikens knock them over (Impact proc).  Shurikens deal 100% of their damage as the selected physical damage.

Smokescreen: I've nothing to say, I like the ideas you've given as-is.

Teleport: Same as above.

Bladestorm: Your idea is an improvement over the current, but why not go further?  Essentially, what if you could cast Shuriken instead of casting Bladestorm again to consume all of the marks in exchange for throwing 1/2/3 (scales with Ash's level) Shurikens at every marked target.  All of the shurikens will match the player's selected Shuriken type and each will inflict the same damage as a cast of Shuriken with a 100% status proc.  

 

 

 

Edited November 26, 2016 by Messaiga

[NeithanDiniem]

1. Id say his invisibility needs to be a bit longer, but not as long as Loki. Loki's long invisibility is a particular part of his kit, giving it to ash dilutes loki's specialty. Longer yes, as long as Loki's id say no.
2. This is more or less the player needing to prioritize who they mark first. Using parkour to your advantage you can get a head up on the enemies and more easily target priority enemies first.
3. I would agree to this to an extent, because the game IS supposed to force you out of the mission eventually, you should never be able to play missions infinitely due to poorly designed mechanics. A slight damage output re-pass may be needed instead to help lengthen how well he scales up, but not let it continue to guaranteed-kill level against as many any-level targets as you mark.
4. Max efficiency drops the cost to 3.75 per mark.
5. I would agree to this as well. Uninterruptible animations are key places where you are most vulnerable, so having Ash retain his invisibility during that would be preferable. It also doesn't contradict his theme or kit at all, so it is a good solution.

Edited November 26, 2016 by NeithanDiniem

[An8rchy]

1 minute ago, Daggerpaw1 said:

You can't, you have to mod for efficiency and strength with some duration.

Ash main butthurt reply. Hybrid builds are better. No point on argue there

1 minute ago, Daggerpaw1 said:

That's not the point of a warframe ability

It isnt suppost to be souly warframe abilities. you have 3 weapons and a warframe. use all

2 minutes ago, Daggerpaw1 said:

See 1.

See my 1 and learn to do Hybrid builds

2 minutes ago, Daggerpaw1 said:

It's borderline worthless in high end content if it doesn't because the mark system is too clunky to work properly.

Not clunky just you not used to it and not utelizing it currectly

3 minutes ago, Daggerpaw1 said:

Because it was long enough to get me 1 shot.

if 0.3 is too long sorry but thats just your mind

[KawaiirawrxDkys]

Now hear me out it may sound dumb but why not just have a togglable bladestorm in which you press 4 and ash whips out his ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) arm blades and you just go around pressing the Melee button either doing the blade storm animation on a single enemy or maybe the blades can having their own melee stance. 

This solves

1. The boring press 4 and wait 

2. Solves people getting mad about invicible targets

3. Adds interaction to the skill

boom problem solved 

Its so much better then what we have now. DE gets a gold star for trying

[Trichouette]

Why ? I'd say "because it got suggested hundreds of time and didn't happen which means the devs don't want that to happen"

[An8rchy]

Because theres already a lot of Exalted Abilities ._.

[ijustwanttomakeanamebrah]

Do you know what? I was playing ash immediately before and after his rework, AND I just started playing him. I built him for his ult, meaning range over power and ignoring duration and efficiency. Before the update, I was very happy with my trump card. Now, 4 formas later, I have no trump card, and have to chose between reformaing Ash for another ability or playing another frame.

 

Bye-bye Ash, you were fun for the month I played you for. I'm going back to Valkyr.

[SpeedOfLightPuncher]

39 minutes ago, Elyann said:

Smokescreen

his 2

You shouldn't be forced using it

Ash is not Saryn 2.0

Nor Mag


Apart from jokes....the energy cost on bladestorm is too heavy right now, even with efficiency mods ( 10 energy x target ) and even though ash is a stealth frame we shouldn't be forced to 2 -> 4 and so spend more energy when at this point you could just play a broken soundquake banshee and get a ton more damage done...or an ember...or lots of other frames whose abilities are just better in any case...and many of them have always been.
Teleport's new augment does make it feel way more appealing than bladestorm atm...and this shouldn't happen since every frame's 4 is meant to be some really powerful ability ( which is why they are usually the only ones to get nerfed ) .
Smokescreen is nice...but it's not something I want to get used spamming, even cause at this point if I really want to be a stealth frame I'd rather go on Loki...more duration , decoy , switch teleport working with decoy , disarm...
I think the only thing they should have tweaked was the "lock on" part...and make no changes to bladestorm's energy costs....it would have been more than enough to slow people's dps down a bit...and so lower it while they were trying to figure out on which mobs it was worth locking their 4 on.
This feels like an unneeded nerf though....and like a bad  solution that was maybe not even tested into end game content.

I have 0 energy issues 

[Shifted]

Had the same conversation with friends yesterday.
My idea:

Hold 4 to use "old" bladestorm (target everything)
OR
Press 4 to enter "bladestorm mode"

While in bladestorm mode, tap E whle aiming at a target to stab that singular target
OR
Hold E to paint targets like we do now.

More options, less clicking, everyone wins.
---
The idea was to make Bladestorm more interactive, while in fact what we got just made it more annoying to use.

Edited November 26, 2016 by Shifted

[kleerr2]

52 minutes ago, BronzeWolf said:

I'd say the incentive is that it is finisher damage and ignores armor. Also I need a source on that quote since I don't remember saying that, if you're paraphrasing please add that in.

That incentive is not enough, far from it... Like i said, if its hardly at par with just weapons, why use it besides the 'I kind of like it' argument. it takes more time to build up the marks than it would to just kill said enemies, that is a problem.

You did not say it, but you kind of implied it.

57 minutes ago, BronzeWolf said:

In honesty I feel that discretion is advised when using warframe abilities since if you gun is just as capable as your ult to kill an enemy than your choosing the wrong targets or the wrong time to use it. However I do agree that you shouldn't have to cast smokescreen in order to spend less energy on Bladestorm, because forced 'synergy' isn't synergy.

Again I feel that discretion is advised since if your team can kill all of your marked targets then it isn't the time or place to use Bladestorm.

And then again, when will that time come? Weapons do more dmg than your ulti, and they do not need as much hassle to do so... By that line of thought, ''the right time'' will never come.

[Flyghter]

5 minutes ago, An8rchy said:

Because theres already a lot of Exalted Abilities ._.

Yea but it can still be made uniq some how , and now exalted weapons become some how  mandatory to all melee users .

The rework is good but it will be much better whit a exalted weapon from my point of view.....

 

Edited November 26, 2016 by Flyghter

[Vifany]

15 minutes ago, TheGoodDarius said:

Clearly state that he is a front line trooper right?

It is cleraly that you pretending to be silly. 

1. Im talking about one exact ability that forces me to do excessive button pressing
2. This ability is not Saryns combo-wombo wich have a bunch of options
3. ONE ABILITY not frame overall

There is nice principle called K.I.S.S (Keep it simple, stupid), and this button mashing is not simple, it also is not an option like "add some damage while increasing energy cost" that Saryn has. It is only " dont forget to press button to not screw up". Do you see alternative to not using smoke? There is no one, only "benefits". So if this benefits is good enough smoke will be used always - so why we forced to press another button and wait another animation if it will be used each time? If this "benefit" is crappy nobody or statisticly insignificant amount of players will use smoke to get it. So this "attempt to encourage" will crearly fail.
Also what trouble in adding invis during preparation of ult, is it makes approach of  Ash less stealthy? Yup, clearly more invis makes frame less stealthy. And about distraction ability - he has no one.

Also im too lazy to chek my spelling - enjoy.

[achromos]

1 minute ago, SpeedOfLightPuncher said:

I have 0 energy issues 

Same...  This game gives you several other options too

Naramon.

Prisma Shade/Shade

Stealth Kubrow (forgot it's breed)

and Smokebomb

 

ALL of these cut Bladestorms energy useage down CONSIDERABLY.

 

You aren't forced to use just Smokebomb. 

 

Heck even with the build I have I have no primed flow on and I can easily enough use Smokebomb and then swipe the room.

[Valthryn]

3 hours ago, An8rchy said:

Ash main butthurt reply. Hybrid builds are better. No point on argue there

It isnt suppost to be souly warframe abilities. you have 3 weapons and a warframe. use all

See my 1 and learn to do Hybrid builds

Not clunky just you not used to it and not utelizing it currectly

if 0.3 is too long sorry but thats just your mind

1. I haven't touched Ash for months, then he got a rework and I came back.

2. That's not an excuse for an ability to be clunky and not useful. Every warframe has to have useful abilities unless all you do is farm Kuva and play Berehynia all day. Bladestorm is inadequate at best when actually put to the test, and Smokescreen has its issues as I outlined. As it stands, Ash has inadequate survival in any pseudo-high end content. You can't play Excalibur without Radial Blind in a T4 equivalent Void Survival, despite having 3 weapons and a warframe.

3. I have a hybrid build between strength/max efficiency/duration

4. Multi marking every enemy just because there's one corrupted bombard in the group and having the ability be useless when there's an Ancient anywhere near is clunky. "Utilizing the ability correctly" the way you're thinking of it is impossible in the chaos of a real mission. Get out of the Simulacrum once in a while.

5. It's long enough for me to get one shot by a Corrupted Crewman while I can't do anything about it.

6. Sounds like someone just wants to get off to being a contrarian.

[RoninJed]

Its an idea...either way I hope DE does a little more work on him. Wished that for nekros too but I guess his time has passed;(

[Jackviator]

So right off the bat; before any mods merge this into the megathread, this isn't feedback on just the changes. I'm trying to start a discussion on his kit as a whole, not the changes to his abilities in the past update.

Moving on; Ash's kit.

His 1st ability, Shuriken, simply has Ash let loose a couple throwing stars to throw at enemies that cause bleed procs. As abilities go, it's not completely useless, the damage is alright at lower levels, but once you hit a certain point the damage really starts to fall off, and I find myself either having to use the Seeking Shuriken aug or not use his 1st at all. TBH the player isn't really given an incentive to use them past level 40 unless they have the augment, and I'm getting tired of what I like to call "necessary augs," or augments that it feels like you simply must use for the ability to be useful to any degree (looking at you, Psychic Bolts).

In addition to that, I find that the throwing stars seem to have a mind of their own, often locking on to enemies beside or near me instead of the enemies I'm actually aiming at. IMO, it would be ideal for them to have a marking system similar to his 4, or simply just fire out as projectiles in the direction you're aiming, like Frost's 1st ability.

His 2nd ability, Smokescreen, is pretty much alright. I like the synergy it has with his 4th now, and it acts as a good "OH ****" button to get out of sticky situations. Plus, with how they tweaked it the rework, it's much more versaitile.

The only change I'd like to see would be if it was buffed slightly to a max of 10-12 seconds instead of 8, because otherwise it feels almost mandatory to slap on Narrow Minded and/or Primed Continuity to use it properly. Otherwise, it's perfect in my eyes.

His 3rd ability, Teleport, seems to be the main bugbear in his kit at the moment, in that there doesn't really seem to be a reason to use it. Sure, you can use it to target and kill enemies... but so can his 4th ability. Sure, you can use it to escape... but you kinda already have Smokescreen for that.

Yes, you open enemies up to Finishers, but TBH does he really need 3 damage-focused abilities in his kit? Surely just 1 or at most 2 is enough, right? If it were up to me, I'd also allow the player to utilize teleport to move around the map without needing to target any objects or characters. It would at least offer some versaitility in Spy missions or allow the bypassing of certain obstacles in mission such as laser barriers.

His 4th ability, Bladestorm, used to be my least favorite ability in the game because of how utterly brainless it was. (That title now belongs to World on Fire, but that's a topic for another thread). Now, I find it much more useful in targeting higher-priority targets, and really like the targeting system, as I actually have agency in what gets killed, but as for how it affects the squad: it shouldn't make enemies invulnerable while they're trapped in the stabbing animations. It's just annoying to the rest of the squad.

And as for how it affects ME, the player playing Ash: Please. No more being trapped in a slideshow of animations. It's just a mess of motion-sickness inducing shaky-cam Michael Bay nonsense. I appreciate that DE worked hard on those animations, but if Ash could just send out his clones to attack the enemies instead of getting involved himself, we could at least still watch the animations play out from the sidelines, without being trapped in an animation and getting motion-sick.

So those are my tweaks for an ideal Ash. He doesn't need another large rework, just small tweaks here and there for him to be perfected as a frame.

If you have other ideas as to how he could be tweaked, feel free to comment your suggestions.

Edited November 28, 2016 by Jackviator
Forgot to end a sentence. *facepalm*

[An8rchy]

6 minutes ago, Daggerpaw1 said:

2. That's not an excuse for an ability to be clunky and not useful. Every warframe has to have useful abilities unless all you do is farm Kuva and play Berehynia all day. Bladestorm is inadequate at best when actually put to the test, and Smokescreen has its issues as I outlined. As it stands, Ash has inadequate survival in any pseudo-high end content. You can't play Excalibur without Radial Blind in a T4 equivalent Void Survival, despite having 3 weapons and a warframe.

Why so butthurt then about Ash not being Meta ? Valkyr's ult can sometimes not 1 shot, same for excal and wukong. why Ash HAS to ? no reason to rant about it while u have other frames that have the same "issue"

6 minutes ago, Daggerpaw1 said:

Sounds like someone just wants to get off to being a contrarian.

Sounds like you are just annoyed cuz your rant makes no sense

6 minutes ago, Daggerpaw1 said:

2. That's not an excuse for an ability to be clunky and not useful.

The ability is way more useful now than it was before

6 minutes ago, Daggerpaw1 said:

5. It's long enough for me to get one shot by a Corrupted Crewman while I can't do anything about it.

I did a Survival on Void post nerf, didnt had a single problem with a Hybrid Duration / strengh build until energy drain eximus

BTW, i dont even have the Simulacrum key, i do my testing on void Survival. as you prob should try if u have difficulty aiming to mark

Edited November 26, 2016 by An8rchy