Ash Revisited Feedback Megathread

[An8rchy]

1 minute ago, leviticus23 said:

Why dont people like exalted weapons i love going into super sayin mode on valk or super awesome weeb main character mode with excaliber pulling out is powered up sword

Belive me, i love exalted weapons, i would love to have 2 hidden blades, and go like "void dash" thru enemies and just snap necks. but  sadly it seems that 70% dont like exalted abilities. i guess we cant have too many

[DatDarkOne]

2 hours ago, BronzeWolf said:

and with the changes to Bladestorm it can now be used as a single target assassination.

^^This is the change that I like the most.  It's also that one change that makes me want to play Ash more than I currently do.  

[VampirePirate]

You don't hold 4 to mark targets while in bladestorm mode.  It's automatic.  all you need do is wave your aiming reticle over enemies.

The only protection you need during this mode is to be evasive and make proper placement of your warframe to mark the targets before you hit 4 again to attack.

This is no different than when you run-n-gun with a primary in the midst of enemy hordes; it's virtually the same principle.  Offensive and defensive situations remain exactly the same.  There literally has been no change in gameplay except the fact that bladestorm now requires a couple of extra steps to execute.   It feels like a form of restriction, something most people would like to call "nerf", but it is still quite manageable to use bladestorm.  However, you now need to use your brain a bit more than before.

A bit of practice will go a long way.

[BronzeWolf]

22 minutes ago, kleerr2 said:

I never suggested that my argument is based on low lvl enemies.

I never suggested that you were, I just said that if your weapon can easily kill the enemy you are fighting it is not the time to use bladestorm.

22 minutes ago, kleerr2 said:

Ugh, no... you are going to keep Maim up as much as possible for its CC and dmg, possibly switch to heal if urgent, shoot/melee enemies, and thats it... 

I have a feeling that you didn't read what I said. Or you are projecting your experiences with other Equinox players onto me.

22 minutes ago, kleerr2 said:

Please don't go there, and make it seem like every warframe should have a specific strict role they should cater to, like in some kind of mmorpg

They have a specific and strict abilities and stats, it would be unreasonable to assume that they would never use them. Likewise since your experiences with most Equinox players led you to believe that it is reasonable to assume that, "you are going to keep Maim up as much as possible for its CC and dmg, possibly switch to heal if urgent, shoot/melee enemies, and thats it...".

22 minutes ago, kleerr2 said:

you are going to put out as much effectivness aspossible whenever you can/want.

That is true, I will choose to use what is effective for the team, according to the mission type and composition without leaving an aspect of our cell empty.

22 minutes ago, kleerr2 said:

Oh, pardon me, could you remind me what lvl enemies the meta weapons can kill again, and compare their effectiveness to that of Bladestorm...

You can tell me what levels and enemies your weapons can kill and up to what level in a reasonable amount of time. I will tell you that above that point you should use Bladestorm since the enemy will have a lot of armor/shields that finisher/bleed damage will kill them faster than your weapons.

Edited November 26, 2016 by BronzeWolf
Added an example.

[Tengu_Bruxo]

3 minutes ago, DatDarkOne said:

^^This is the change that I like the most.  It's also that one change that makes me want to play Ash more than I currently do.  

we've had this for a while now, Fatal Teleport, and it's much cheaper, and more responsive.

[Syln]

Just throwing this here since i don't hate the new bladestorm and since obviously the intend was to make it more active for the player, i was wondering why are we still in standby mode while the killing is in process ?

Wouldn't it be better if we could still do our thing while ash's clone do the killing ?

[NightmareT12]

3 minutes ago, Tengu_Bruxo said:

we've had this for a while now, Fatal Teleport, and it's much cheaper, and more responsive.

Except when it doesn't work.

[Ancibion]

I do love to see some kind of rework for Ash's Bladestorm. Don't get me wrong, I love Ash, he is the 2nd frame I build after maxing Excal and I main him long before Ash Prime comes out.

The idea is to make Bladestorm more interactive, that's it. By more interactive it means player should have 'control' over the skill itself.

My idea/suggestion is to make Bladestorm kinda like Exalted Blade. Please bear with me through this.

Once you press 4, Ash readies his Wrist Blade and went into this 'berserk state'. When you click an enemy he will instantly teleport to the enemy and perform the upgraded version of the current finisher cut-scene ALONG with 2 of his CLONE doing the finisher to the other enemy around the vicinity of your clicked/targeted enemy.

After the cut-scene finish, Ash remain in 'berserk state' and you can repeat on killing other enemies.

Info:

- Ash gains improved sprint speed while in 'berserk' state.

- While on 'berserk' state Ash can use all other skills, smokescreen, shuriken.

- 'Berserk' state drain energy just like exalted blade.

- Ash can interact with alarms, life support, reviving ally while in 'berserk' state. Just like excal's while using 4. You get the idea.

- The vicinity range of how far your clone can attack affected by power range.

- Damage affected by power strength and melee mods.

-Ash and his 2 clones both increase melee counter as usual.

- Clones may appear like mirage's or only appear when killing.

-If there is only 1 enemy in the vicinity Ash and his 2 clone will make a special joint attack with his clones. Imagine doing it to Bosses? GG

The idea is to make BS still able to kill lot enemies in a short period of time but with this feeling that you are the one going in for the kill and YOU are the one who CHOOSE who will DIE next.

Your thoughts on this guys? Will update post or make a thread if you guys like this idea.

Edited November 26, 2016 by Ancibion

[Cubewano]

6 minutes ago, DatDarkOne said:

^^This is the change that I like the most.  It's also that one change that makes me want to play Ash more than I currently do.  

That's always been an option for Ash, have you ever heard of fatal teleport? At best the change has made Bladestorm a more expensive side option. 

[R34LM]

I have to say that I am pleased with the changes, but the problem still stands that you are still stuck looking at the animations of bladestorm, and if you mark a ton of enemies that means you are locked out of gameplay just like pre-patch bladestorm. There was one suggestion to just have Ash send out only his shadows to kill the marks (leaving Ash free to do what ever), but why would Ash have hidden blades on him (made more obvious with the Koga skin) if he'll just send out his shadows during bladestorm?

Here's what I suggest to make bladestorm not lock you out but still have Ash make use of his hidden blades. Have his shadows be the only ones to hit the marks, but have all of Ash's finishers replaced with his hidden blades. The damage and mods would still be exactly the same as the current weapon equipped; it'd just be a cosmetic change in the animation where Ash would use his hidden blades instead. Some of the current bladestorm animations can sort of work with front and back finishers. With this you won't be stuck watching yourself do a long bladestorm while sipping a tea, but you can still get the enjoyment of Ash using his hidden blades.

Thoughts?

Edited November 26, 2016 by R34LM

[Flyghter]

1 hour ago, (PS4)Agent_Raiken said:

Smokescreen is awesome now.
Teleport i guess is better but i cant help but feel like it makes my issue with it even worse. Being that most of the time, an ally or companion gets in the way and i end up teleporting to them instead. But its not a huge issue. (Free aim 10m dash and attack into the closest enemy would be my change)

Bladestorm is unfortunate. Its the same but slower and less efficient.
A simple quick fix would be to just have a Shadow Clone immediately attack a marked enemy, although that sounds like a quick way to dump out all of your energy.
My preferred change would be to keep the mark mode (because MAAANNN that mode is cool) but not for marking. Instead give him increased  movement speed, Slash damage, slash proc chance and evasiveness (reduce enemy accuracy). Meanwhile shuriken is changed to the deathmark while bladestorm is active. Marked enemies have some sort of de-buff (Armor and shield removal, guaranteed Slash procs on all damage, shadow clones attack with anyone melee-ing a marked enemy,  or something like that) and teleport instead does the bladestorm animation. 

 

So on Bladestorm  some kind of exalted weapon  whit some kind of mark interaction  i like this and i will like to see it implemented 

[Wolfrahmium]

Greetings,

As someone who plays Ash a lot, I have some things to say about this rework.

All in all, congratulations for the idea. I feel this is a step in the right direction, however there are 2 key points I would like to address.

First:

You want to make Ash a more stealth based frame

Done: Allow him to easily cast his stealth

Suggestion: Increase stealth base time a little bit

8 seconds base seems too little for a stealth based frame. I also understand he is tankier than Loki who has 12 seconds but the way this time scales with mods makes a huge difference. My suggestion is increasing Ash stealth time to 10 seconds.

Second:

You want to make Ash's Bladestorm more interactive

Done: The new Bladestorm has him have to target every thing before triggering the move

Suggestion: Have only Ash's clone jump the targets while Ash remains playable

With Ash's speed and tankyness, it would make it way more interactive for Ash to remain playable while his clones jump the enemies. He would not need this as a panic button if he has access to his other abilities and could provide additional control to his team since the finishers also stun enemies for some time. This would also allow for options when it comes to melee weapons.

Slower melee weapons = more finishing time

Additional Suggestion: Energy efficiency

Before this change, it would cost 100 energy for 16 targets (16 marks). Now, if one of those marks costs 10, then we would have a total of 160 energy used. There are ways to make this more energy efficient. One idea is to reduce the base cost of the marks, other is to have the energy used refunded in some way, for example, when clones kill an enemy, they return to Ash with a percentage of the energy used.

These are my suggestions and I hope you keep taking steps in the right direction.

Looking forward to seeing what more content and changes you will add to the game

[(PSN)RNickS_BRASIL]

28 minutes ago, DatDarkOne said:

 

Just got done testing BS for the first time and using a controller while doing it.  Marking targets wasn't hard at all with a controller.  It was easier than shooting at the enemies.  I was able to completely control what was effected by BladeStorm, and also kill enemies at range quite well.  Using the controller, I was able to go into BS, target multiple enemies, and then finish them all within a few seconds.  Energy didn't seem to be as big a factor as I was spamming BS from the beginning of the mission without much trouble (without using energy pizzas or Zenurik).  I will admit that this might or might not be a problem in longer missions.

This is just to give an update on how it really is using reworked Bladestorm with a controller.  I found it to be more enjoyable IMO to play now.  Instead of using it as a panic button or press-4-to-win, it's more engaging.  I haven't used it with a group yet as I did my little test solo. 

Thank apreciated that 

P.S.  decided to make a new post for your convenience instead of editing my previous post.  :D

Thanks apreciated that good game 

[WarGrylls]

Hhm... a lot of people said what i wanted to say already... okay.

[DatDarkOne]

23 minutes ago, Cubewano said:

That's always been an option for Ash, have you ever heard of fatal teleport? At best the change has made Bladestorm a more expensive side option. 

 

29 minutes ago, Tengu_Bruxo said:

we've had this for a while now, Fatal Teleport, and it's much cheaper, and more responsive.

If you both would please note my statement also implies that I don't play Ash a lot.  So, I didn't consider Fatal Teleport as worth getting for a frame that I didn't play often.  To me Ash is more fun to play than Loki(especially now) and subpar when compared to my favorite frame Ivara.  The changes to BS do in fact make me want to play him more.  Please check out my earlier post about testing BS with a controller.  :D

Edited November 26, 2016 by DatDarkOne
grammar

[(PSN)kelow_504]

Ash rework should've been:

Blade Storm:

• Ash sends out his clones to attack using the same mark system.
• While his clones are attacking he can start marking enemies for the next cast of blade storm.

Teleport:

Mostly the same except:

• When ash teleports to marked enemies he can join in on blade storm

Smokescreen:

Also pretty similar to original

• Increase duration by 5 seconds
• Keep decreased mark cost

Shuriken: 

• enemies hit get 3 marks when ash is preparing for blade storm
• Instead of 1 he uses 3

[kleerr2]

10 minutes ago, BronzeWolf said:

I never suggested that you were, I just said that if your weapon can easily kill the enemy you are fighting it is not the time to use bladestorm.

Isn't that kind of implying it? That kind of implies that i base my argument around low lvl enemies...

12 minutes ago, BronzeWolf said:

I have a feeling that you didn't read what I said. Or you are projecting your experiences with other Equinox players onto me.

Not other Equinox players, in general... Players will tend to be as effective as possible, so long as they feel like it ofcourse...

And i did read what you said... but you want to be as effective as possible. Also this:

14 minutes ago, BronzeWolf said:

That is true, I will choose to use what is effective for the team, according to the mission type and composition without leaving an aspect of our cell empty.

So, yea...

15 minutes ago, BronzeWolf said:

They have a specific and strict abilities and stats, it would be unreasonable to assume that they would never use them.

Umm, I don't think you understood what i was getting at... Plese refer to the word 'Role'.

17 minutes ago, BronzeWolf said:

You can tell me what levels and enemies your weapons can kill and up to what level in a reasonable amount of time. I will tell you that above that point you should use Bladestorm since the enemy will have a lot of armor/shields that finisher/bleed damage will kill them faster than your weapons.

Can Ash actually survive in an environment with that lvl of enemies, i mean surely he has to be alive to mark the enemy... and while, yes it is finisher dmg and yes the bleed is gud, the places, or rather lvl range where using bladestorm is moderetly acceptable for use, weapons overtake its lead.

Its like idk 4k dmg with 12k per bleed or so, not too impresive... enemy HP scales too.

[Syln]

Exactly what i feel about it right now so that's a yes for me ^

[ZiLei]

Give him more survivability! Give him more armor please!! Everything else I am a ok with! No more annoying 3 Ash Prime spamming BladeStorm in my party again! Thank the lord!!

[Messaiga]

19 minutes ago, SquidTheSid said:

I'd say that Fire/Viral/Gas are a lot more useful than Puncture/Impact because of the procs. Personally, if I had the choice of IPS, I'd always go for Slash. 

 

So we're throwing 3 Shurikens at a target for each mark? So up to 9? 

I forgot you could mark them multiple times.  The second idea was mostly an idea out of thinking it'd be fun to use/see, and though it could have some use it'd probably just be more effective to kill everything with Bladestorm.  Probably one of those concepts that in theory sounds cool but isn't effective.  As for physical damage shurikens over elementals, the idea behind it is that each type has a specific use.  Slash hurts more, Impact CC's enemies, Puncture makes them hurt less.  Gas, Fire, and Slash all do DOT and Viral halves their health.  Perhaps I'm not seeing something here?

There's a lot of different routes to be taken for improving his Shurikens, so I suppose it's not a big deal which it is as long as it is enjoyable to use.

[ZiLei]

Hold 4 to enter BladeStrom(BS) channeling mode?

-insert energy drain formula here-

Pulls out hidden blade to fight like Valkyr?

Can mark enemeis while in BS mode.

Tap 4 to send clones after marked enemies.

Hold 4 to exit BS mode.

Increase base armor too!

[SquidTheSid]

5 minutes ago, Messaiga said:

I forgot you could mark them multiple times.  The second idea was mostly an idea out of thinking it'd be fun to use/see, and though it could have some use it'd probably just be more effective to kill everything with Bladestorm.  Probably one of those concepts that in theory sounds cool but isn't effective.  As for physical damage shurikens over elementals, the idea behind it is that each type has a specific use.  Slash hurts more, Impact CC's enemies, Puncture makes them hurt less.  Gas, Fire, and Slash all do DOT and Viral halves their health.  Perhaps I'm not seeing something here?

There's a lot of different routes to be taken for improving his Shurikens, so I suppose it's not a big deal which it is as long as it is enjoyable to use.

Gas is an AoE DoT, fire is CC with a weak DoT, and Viral halves health. They all perform different roles (AoE damage, CC, utility). If your suggestion of shurikens hitting marked targets is implemented, then having multiple shurikens proc fire or viral could be effective, but limited, CC. 

[Cubewano]

17 minutes ago, DatDarkOne said:

 

If you both would please note my statement also implies that I don't play Ash a lot.  So, I didn't consider Fatal Teleport as worth getting for a frame that I didn't play often.  To me Ash is more fun to play than Loki(especially now) and subpar when compared to my favorite frame Ivara.  The changes to BS do in fact make me want to play him more.  Please check out my earlier post about testing BS with a controller.  :D

Just because you don't feel like doing something doesn't make it less real or an option, I'm just making sure you knew that the ability to assassinate single targets with Ash was an option well before this change came into play. If you have other more valid arguments though then go ahead and share them, that's the whole purpose of this thread. 

[Messaiga]

5 minutes ago, SquidTheSid said:

Gas is an AoE DoT, fire is CC with a weak DoT, and Viral halves health. They all perform different roles (AoE damage, CC, utility). If your suggestion of shurikens hitting marked targets is implemented, then having multiple shurikens proc fire or viral could be effective, but limited, CC. 

That sounds interesting, yeah.  I knew I was overlooking something.  I'd be happy with any form of work on Ash that adds some synergy between his abilities, really.

[Foefaller]

29 minutes ago, Cubewano said:

That's always been an option for Ash, have you ever heard of fatal teleport? At best the change has made Bladestorm a more expensive side option. 

Except... it isn't? Marking a single target with BS has a base cost of 15, 10 if you have any form of invisibility, and Teleport has a cost of 25.

Anyway. I like the feel of the new Bladestorm. Yes I know it's a nerf, but it's more fun for me this way... except for the lack of clones. I mean, I get that we're not going to be hitting 18 targets every time we press 4 anymore, but with no clones anything more than 3 you might as well not bother because your teammates will kill the rest.