Ash Revisited Feedback Megathread

[Skaleek]

Don't worry, Simulor Mirage is probably the next one to be made "more fun". Honestly i think the DE's main goal was to normalize bladestorm, not make it more fun. They accomplished what they set out to do, they just didnt accomplish what we wanted them to.

[Insizer]

17 minutes ago, AdunSaveMe said:

Wasn't that the point? To make it more fun?

Don't be like that. We both know that "to make it more fun" was a secondary cause and secondary (but still important) objective of the revisit.

[Disaeo]

5 minutes ago, Insizer said:

Don't be like that. We both know that "to make it more fun" was a secondary cause and secondary (but still important) objective of the revisit.

You should know then that the main point was to persuade players to not use it anymore as it's not convenient, in few words: ash has no fourth ability. It's a shame but I don't wanna get repetitive, I said my idea, there are over 1300 comments and from the fresh new update we just got I've not seen a single word regarding ash so let's just give up and check how awesome teleport still is (until someone will find something to complain). Done with this thread.

[Enno69]

Ash is definitely fine. Not perfect, sure - BS still consists of a cutscene and Shuriken is still meh, in addition he has little team synergy - but he's far from dead. He gets the job done.

[Tengu_Bruxo]

Hey Tenno,

I’m writing this in hopes that DE will see that the community has some soild ideas, as well as caring hearts for this game. Anyway here I go.

I’ve been playing around, really thinking hard what DE could do in order to help fix this Ash rework. Tons of ideas from the community have been thrown around different fixes here and there.. With that said, I decided that make a full rundown with some of the ideas, as well as push Ash to the “assassin-estc” frame that we know that he can be.  Would love to know what you guys think.

These are my ideas.

Shuriken: Remains the same: 25 energy key 1  Ash throws 1 / 1 / 2 / 2 shuriken which seek-out enemies, each dealing 100 / 250 / 350 / 500 Slash damage with a 100% status chance.

Teleport:  remains the same: 25 energy key 2 (holding onto the current changes which make teleport much better) Ash teleports to a target within 20 / 45 / 45 / 60 meters. (Current Bladestorm animation for the finisher will apply here)

Below are the changes that push Ash into the niche that he should be a part of. I’ll give my reasons with the changes that I propose.

Assassins Sight:  75 energy key 3: Ash’s sight extends, bolstering the critical chance and movement speed of his allies within 15 / 20 / 22 / 25 meters. Affected allies will gain 15% / 20% / 25% / 50%  increased critical chance and movement speed for 7 / 10 / 12 / 15 seconds.

Design notes:

This will give Ash a stronger “team” feel while in groups, instead of being the frame that everyone associates as either a solo frame, or noob frame.  This also increases his viability at higher level missions. This also places Ash in a group of frames (Rhino and Valkyr ) that help increase party output without stepping on the toes, or out classing them.  After all Ash (imo) has always been the Assassin frame.

Shadow Dance: 75 energy key 4 (or any other name that would fit better): Ash unleashes the power of shadow and ash staggering enemies for a short duration within a radius of 15 meters. Ash becomes untargetable for 2 / 4 / 6 / 8 seconds.

Ash instantly enters a state of intense focus as he searches for targets to assassinate, emitting black smoke and seeing the environment in monochrome. During shadow dance, enemies within 50 meters that are seen near the aiming reticule become tagged with a Death Mark that appears above them, while all marked targets are highlighted in red.

Shadow Clones assault all marked enemies within his ability radius. Each attack inflicts 750 / 1000 / 1500 / 2000 Finisher damage with a 100% Bleed chance. Damage is affected by Power Strength, Steel Charge, and Combo Counter multipliers

Design notes:

This ability becomes two fold. Smoke bomb, as well as a form of AoE attack vs multiple targets. I’ve seen various people play with the idea of a “cool down” to Ash’s Bladestorm, to remove his animations etc.

For me this kind of fixes the problem tying his damage to the duration of his stealth. (Which is why Ash has a short stealth timer). This also helps with Ash’s Survivability by functioning as smoke bomb, but also removing the threat from around Ash with his Clones attacking everything within his “marked” field of vision. In this “mode” Ash will still have his full breath of movement.

The marks don’t stack as they do now, instead they mark once, then a clone attacks at its full strength. This also removes the time needed for multiple marks, as well as the cinematic animations that slow Ash down, but allows his clones to keep them. Once the duration of his stealth ends, the clones will disappear. Clones will still be affected by combo-meter and such.

Anyway these are my current idea’s that might help bring Ash into something more of a team player, yet still keeping his “Fast hitting Assassin” feel.

Hope my fellow Tenno like this!

Edited December 2, 2016 by Tengu_Bruxo

[ensignvidiot]

I greatly enjoy all tweaks and changes that accompanied Ash with his sweet and sexy Deluxe Skin. Nearly all of my gripes are gone with the frame.

 

Shrike tracking is VASTLY improved, making it easier for me to land bankshots on SOMETHING (even if I can't hit my intended target 60% of the time).

 

The ability to smokebomb mid bullet jump and slide is liberating. I'm able to stealth as I leap into the room, and it provides excellent synergy with bladestorm.

 

The teleport now opens additional options for strategic movement. I feel more comfortable to use Ash instead of Loki in spy missions, as it's more risky to switch teleport inside a vault with a decoy then it is to teleport to a valid destructible with a healthbar.

 

 

And finally bladestorm

 I lose a multi hit, auto targeting murder bot that I used while holding a prisma Skana (just to get Loka procs and get the most out of Rising Storm). 

What I got was a more efficient (double efficient if i smokebomb) Murder bot that deals more damage, refunds energy not spent.

 

However it suffers from one major fallback in both iterations: I'm locked to a cutscene for the full duration of the ability, in able to change targets, unable to revive allies, unable to affect the mission I'm in until MurderBot3.EXE has finished running.

 

 

Honestly, I just wished bladestorm would become what I envisioned it to be when I first tried to farm Ash  over an age ago when he was guarded by a grineer with a Skana, a funny hat, and a mean swing.

 

When I read the description of bladestorm 1.0 (the mod card), I thought it would be a bit something out of an anime: a superninja strikes a group of enemies at lightning speed, and ends in a bad &#! pose. enemies are in a state of "you are already dead" but don't actually die until an appropriate  dramatic moment after the pose.

 

Allow Vergil from Devil May Cry 4 to demonstrate what I believe to be the best solution to what I will call a step in the right direction.

 

https://imgur.com/3FN1mMv

[Hypernaut1]

One myth that I keep seeing repeated is that BS doesn't kill multiple targets faster than weapons. It's not true, not even for higher level enemies. BS is still rather good at thinning crowds. In yesterday's curious survival sortie 3 , BS was definitely a huge help. Neither fatal teleport nor just weapons (except maybe tonkor) would have been as useful. BS was good at targeting multiple drones from a safe perch, cutting down on death orb spam and returning to a safer spot. I was able to enter BS mode, shoot down bubbles while marking and then quickly kill targets. 

Two pros of new rework

1. I was able to escape and go invisible mid air, or use ss while jumping towards a teammate to revive. Using ss in air was valuable to returning to my perch quickly and safely to rain down BS.

2. I was able to help kill enemies surrounding teammates in two areas. The top of platform near life support and on a lower landing. All while targeting drones and popping bubbles. New BS is able to cover a wider area. Not saying it's better, but definitely not completely useless. It has a few perks. I rarely used fatal teleport because BS always put me back into my safe spot, which is very important when the enemy spams nullifiers and death orbs. So yes, there are clear and good reason why I wouldn't use FT instead.

My play style definitely changed with the rework though. I was more of a "kill from the shadows" player than trying to get in the thick of things with old BS as my panic button. I definitely utilized SS more. Not just to mark targets, but also because I was able to use the ability on the move, which made it far more convenient.

For a frame that people claim is useless in a team, i was sure reviving them a lot and being depended on to activate LS. I don't buy that Ash isn't helpful in a team at all.

I do believe that arcane trickery is near essential for a successful build. Triggering it during BS is often a lifesaver. So much so, I think that some form of post BS invisibility or enemy accuracy debuff is a necessary tweak. 

 

Ash isn't useless now, and in some ways I prefer working for those kills. I still love the cut scene.

[Parvikistan]

Hello. In light of recent events, I would like to say that I don't  really like the way Bladestorm is now. I understand that you want to make it a less impersonal ability and not a press 4 to win button, and I am totally on board with that. Furthermore, I would have an idea at how to make it that way.

So, Ash's wrist blades, I love them, how he unsheathes them during bladestorm, very nice touch. My idea is to take them a step further, make then more of an exalted-blade like ability, but keep the finisher damage and the bleed proc. So basically make it a toggled ability, with energy drain (it would make ash's kit more all-round better, since you WILL have to build duration on him, making smoke screen an important ability if you build for raw damage), with custom finishers specifically for it. It's damage to be affected by power strength & combo meter (as it is now)... if need be maybe a little scaling from weapon, but I think it'd be a bit too much.

Also, bladestorm gives Ash invulnerability while performing it. To compensate for that maybe add a certain amount of damage reduction while it's toggled, add in a smoky effect around Ash for the duration of the ability, like a shadow form-ish thingie xD

On a side note, to make Ash's teleport more fluid, maybe make it a blink-like ability? With a fixed distance maybe, so you don't teleport for kilometers at a time? Just a though :)

Anyway, that's my idea about Ash's Bladestorm... So... some feedback from fellow Tenno? Is it a good idea or do you have other ideas? :D

 

[Yazeth]

3 hours ago, (XB1)FCastle74 said:

Meanwhile everyone is waiting for Ash to stop stabbing things with his toothpicks. still waiting ......oh look a teammate is down....ash cant help hes tickling that ancient to death over there....still tickling....(new bard frame plays jeopardy song).......lol

That actually doesn't happen anymore. If you place 3 makrs on one enemy, Ash will only teleport to that enemy once, while his clones deal the dmg for the other two marks. So, Ash exits out of BS quicker than before.

[gluih]

A few small changes I would like to see for bladestorm:

It would be nice if there was a little less camera movement. I think it would be nicer to look at if the camera was only switching to the next enemy instead if following every small movement during the animation.

It would be nice to have a counter that shows how many enemies are marked.

The synergy with smoke screen feels too forced. It would make more sense if the marks were cheaper on enemies that are unaware of where Ash is. So being invisible would be an option, but unalerted enemies would also be easier to kill.

Overall I feel like the bladestorm rework didn't really work out very well. It is pretty much just an added mechanic, but the problems still remain. The big problem imo is that bladestorm basically replaces teleport. Bladestorm is a good ability to kill a lot of enemies, but that's also what wepaons are good for and that's also what his other abilities are good for. The other 3 abilities already are a very well rounded set of abilities , so the 4th ability doesn't have to be about dealing a lot of damage. Instead I think marking the enemies should simply give bonus effects to the other abilities.
Bonus effects could be %hp damage for shuriken, enemies being opened to finishers by smoke screen and the teleport animation would be quicker. On top of that there could be a bonus for the whole team, where enemies would have a higher chance to be affected by slash procs.

[MotherofHermes]

starting to feel like these post rework megathreads exist just to keep the forums more organized. ill be suprised if any idea from here is implimented. myself and others made hundreds of comments about thr nekros changes on that megathread and nothing happened. not even qol UI changes. 

bladestorm is now less cheese. less stab cinimatics would be good as i feel that teleport already does that well enough. just clone stabbing would be a welcome change.

Edited December 2, 2016 by milesthefox

[(XBOX)SweatyPick3L]

1 hour ago, Yazeth said:

That actually doesn't happen anymore. If you place 3 makrs on one enemy, Ash will only teleport to that enemy once, while his clones deal the dmg for the other two marks. So, Ash exits out of BS quicker than before.

So we wait on the clones to killem...ookkkkayy..the difference is? still waiting...?

[Awazx]

6 hours ago, Insizer said:

(...) having to mark the enemies actually made me do something...

I'll give you my vision: when I kill 2.5k in mobs I feel like I 'did something'. Not when I'm forced to use annoying and absurd mechanics.

[Soketsu]

More energy waste per ennemy

More time spent for actually using the ulti

A marked foe can be killed by any allie, any compensation ?

Still waiting while you doing the ulti

 

If it was a nerf : successfull

if not, this is a fail, remove the cinematic and it will already more useful, recover energy from ennemy marked but killed by something else than you

[Yazeth]

1 hour ago, (XB1)FCastle74 said:

So we wait on the clones to killem...ookkkkayy..the difference is? still waiting...?

The two clones also attack once only, so the Ancient will only get hit 3x in total.

[(XBOX)SweatyPick3L]

thats even worse, we are forced to watch ash go through the initial cinamatic and then we have to watch his clones do the same thing??....smh

[(XBOX)SweatyPick3L]

40 minutes ago, Yazeth said:

The two clones also attack once only, so the Ancient will only get hit 3x in total.

that's even worse..my blade storm currently on console i can perform a full BS in 2 sec..that's one animation ...smh. 

[Yazeth]

16 minutes ago, (XB1)FCastle74 said:

that's even worse..my blade storm currently on console i can perform a full BS in 2 sec..that's one animation ...smh. 

You yourself are out of the animation before your clones finishes. Also, you won't get stuck humping an Ancient 15 times, only once. The current animation ends as quick if not quicker than old BS.

[Insizer]

1 hour ago, Awazx said:

I'll give you my vision: when I kill 2.5k in mobs I feel like I 'did something'. Not when I'm forced to use annoying and absurd mechanics.

So if it did more damage you'd be fine? You say the mechanics are absurd and annoying, and I would really like to know why you think that. I have a very hard time seeing quick lockons as absurd and annoying. Mechanically (not counting the cinema scenes either) the ability is extremely easy to use and very straightforward as well. Yes, there are things that could be done to make the ability better, like removing the cinema scenes, buffing the damage, and cutting back on the power cost perhaps (I use Zenurik so my perceptions of energy are a bit different from most), but mechanically I think it is solid.

To each their own, I like doing lots of damage and getting lots of kills as well, but I also like actually having to do at least marginal effort to get them.

It ultimately is a matter of opinion, and I respect yours, but I truly think that people are largely overreacting.

[Awazx]

42 minutes ago, Insizer said:

You say the mechanics are absurd and annoying, and I would really like to know why you think that.

Let me explain: the new mechanics do not adjust to the Warframe game rhythm. It is a slow and tactical mechanic, suitable for solo players or very specific missions. Solitary players will enjoy it. But for 'serious game' (what we call the final game) now Ash has been turned into a useless frame.
 
You have to kill hundreds of enemies, but the game rhythm gives you very little time for that (in some cases less than 1 second). In Warframe, 1 second can be the difference between losing or winning, dying or living. No time to [press 4-search-mark-mark-mark-press 4-show animation-repeat again].

It is an indicator that DE does not understand his own game. This rework is absurd.

Edited December 3, 2016 by Awazx

[METAL_BAWKSES]

Alright so I'm not an Ash player and because of that I'm not going to go into the targeting system and over all mechanics of Blade Storm. The only suggesting I'm going to put forward is a possible replacement for the attack animation Blade Storm. After targeting mobs and hitting 4 again, Ash assumes a melee stance and disappears into a could of smoke. A few sec later Ash reapers in the spot where the attack as cast. A couple of sec after Ash reappears the mobs effected by Blade Storm go into a "pain state" and are frozen in place. The mobs killed by the damage done by blade storm fall apart like they do if killed by a slash proc. The ones not outright killed by Blade Storm fall to the floor. The whole animation cycle could be shorter than the current Blade Storm and still be really flashy. 

 

 

[(XBOX)SweatyPick3L]

2 hours ago, Yazeth said:

You yourself are out of the animation before your clones finishes. Also, you won't get stuck humping an Ancient 15 times, only once. The current animation ends as quick if not quicker than old BS.

No it takes u longer now than before..before u had one step..now u have 3.  not including the cinematic that completely ruins the flow..Its a lazy rework ..de needs to completely remove the cenimatic. 

Edited December 3, 2016 by (XB1)FCastle74

[LSG501]

Ok... I've now had a chance to be on both sides of ash rework...

Initial impressions of ash bladestorm as an ash player (still prefer the old one) were earlier but now having seen how useless ash's bladestorm is when you have other strong players in the team I think even more that the rework needs changing as it's not solved the problem and actually added some.   The reason it needs changing isn't so much due to the low damage or stupidly high energy requirements it's down to the time it takes to mark and trigger the attack.

I literally watched a player spend time marking things to attack with bladestorm and then in effect waste his time because the other players had killed off his targets by the time he'd pressed 4 again.... now it didn't cost energy but what's the point of an 'ultimate' attack if well it doesn't get to attack. 

I think ultimately what ash needs is something inbetween what we had, a single press of 4 and auto target of up to 18 targets, but with a more focused attack so I'm thinking of a line of sight type of attack rather than the old psychic option. 

What I'd like to propose is a single press 4 to trigger bladestorm (old single cost of energy) on up to 18 highest status target targets which are within line of sight (ie what we see on our screen at the point when we press 4).  Ideally you can press 4 again to end bladestorm early, with a refund of a percentage of energy, and the animation does a max of 3 attacks per targets which are no longer immortal during the attack phase.. to compensate for the loss of auto kills on all targets the damage could be linked to our melee weapons like some other warframes or simply given a buff.. 
 

Edited December 3, 2016 by LSG501

[Insizer]

1 hour ago, Awazx said:

Let me explain: the new mechanics do not adjust to the Warframe game rhythm. It is a slow and tactical mechanic, suitable for solo players or very specific missions. Solitary players will enjoy it. But for 'serious game' (what we call the final game) now Ash has been turned into a useless frame.
 
You have to kill hundreds of enemies, but the game rhythm gives you very little time for that (in some cases less than 1 second). In Warframe, 1 second can be the difference between losing or winning, dying or living. No time to [press 4-search-mark-mark-mark-press 4-show animation-repeat again].

It is an indicator that DE does not understand his own game. This rework is absurd.

I guess... but I'm still scratching my head. It may be slower, but it by no means slow. All you do is press 4, sweep one direction, then sweep back and you get 3 marks on most targets.  And just because they got rid of a nuke on a ninja doesn't make that ninja useless, I've seen many Ashes playing very successfully post-revisit (nerf) during "serious game", they just have to use the rest of his kit much more often than before. Hell, I was doing a few Kuva Flood missions with new Ash, despite me rarely using Ash prior to this nerf, and I did more than fine.

I do agree though that Bladestorm needs to be buffed in order to make it more useful.

• Damage could go up
• Energy cost could go down
• Cinema scenes should be gotten rid of
• Perhaps even give Ash's Bladestorm a larger "paintbrush" selection area
• Make Bladestorm deploy more clones (to deal damage to all targets quicker, than you'd get from 2-3 characters sequentially leaping from target to target).
• Have clones stun enemies that are not killed after their last mark is exhausted.

Actually, could I get your opinion on some of those suggestions? Again, I hadn't used Ash much pre-nerf, but I certainly played with a good number of them, including a friend who almost mains him.

Thank you by the way for keeping this exchange civil.

[Awazx]

 

57 minutes ago, Insizer said:

Actually, could I get your opinion on some of those suggestions?

Let's look at this mod:

This mod has great value (may even be essential) in some frames. Why? Because it saves 0.5 seconds of the animation time.

0.5 seconds.

See the problem here? There is simply no time. An example (personal builds of my frames):

1. Frost. Damage 2,8k, radio 30 meters. Casting time 1 seconds (immediately spamable)
2. Rhino. Damage 2,2k, radio 25 meters. Casting time 1 seconds (immediately spamable).

These two examples show that Ash is simply innefficient. Of course Ash can kill, but it's too slow. If a good player does well with Ash, he will do much better with other frames.

Regarding your suggestions:

• - Personally I think the damage is fine. Ash does not have a problem with the damage.
• - Yes, scenes must be eliminated. It's funny; The majority of complaints with the previous mechanics were concerning the animation and is the only thing that [DE] has not removed.

With regard to the other points I can not give a lot of opinion, because I sincerely think that all this new mechanics is a joke of [DE]. Simply remove it and do it from scratch.

Edited December 3, 2016 by Awazx