Ash Revisited Feedback Megathread

[AxxysQcWyld]

16 hours ago, Drufo said:

DE made various tries for Blade Storm, and this was one of those. They excluded it because it was OP and it was even less interactive that the old BS, and their aim with the rework was to give the ability more interactivity, not less

Well my idea is not less interactive since you are still running aroud and backstabbing mobs. Its just that you equip ash's special dagger and when you melee with them  they teleport you behind your target if you aim at it for an easy finisher. Your 2 clones are the one doing the old style bladestorm during the ability (i admit that it would be a little OP ) but i think it could be fun no less. for the OPness of the move it would all depend on how much energy per sec it would cost since im pretty sure it would cost alot given the ability's damage capabilities.

[Yazeth]

3 hours ago, (XB1)FCastle74 said:

No it takes u longer now than before..before u had one step..now u have 3.  not including the cinematic that completely ruins the flow..Its a lazy rework ..de needs to completely remove the cenimatic. 

I was talking about the animation, not about the marking. If you accidentally tagged an Ancient Disruptor, you are forced to attack it until you reach the cap of attacks (around 15-18). With the new BS, the Ancient gets attacked only 3 times max. 

 

Old BS: Attack enemy until it dies or you reach the cap of attacks (+15).

New BS: Attack enemy once per mark (resulting up to 3 attacks max).

Edited December 3, 2016 by Yazeth

[EinheriarJudith]

one suggestion.  give ash a blade counter that is replenishable and just make ash spin in place and blades continuously fly out (toggleable)? have energy cost reduction tied to teleport so that when you teleport within certain amount of seconds cost reduction for bladestorm. i like how bladestorm is now except removing me from play but this could be an alternative.

when i think of storm of blades i think of things like radial javelin or shuriken but on a larger scale not some multi teleport.

EDIT: blade count is so you dont channel forever.

Edited December 3, 2016 by EinheriarJudith

[DatDarkOne]

3 hours ago, Insizer said:

I guess... but I'm still scratching my head. It may be slower, but it by no means slow. All you do is press 4, sweep one direction, then sweep back and you get 3 marks on most targets.  And just because they got rid of a nuke on a ninja doesn't make that ninja useless, I've seen many Ashes playing very successfully post-revisit (nerf) during "serious game", they just have to use the rest of his kit much more often than before. Hell, I was doing a few Kuva Flood missions with new Ash, despite me rarely using Ash prior to this nerf, and I did more than fine.

This has been my experience with him also.  I played him most of the day today.  I had lucked up and got an Affinity Booster at login.  I decided to use that to forma my Ash Prime.  Went to Akkad a few times to both rank back up and see how effective I could be with Bladestorm in a group.  I would just start marking mode and keep it active.  Targets were being marked as I played using melee and I would get the energy back when they died.  Because of this I was able to activate Bladestorm at anytime to kill large groups of enemies or the ones at distance (like the annoying Poison Moas).  Was able to go from melee to BS quickly all with a group Tonker users and Speed Nova.  Doing it all with a controller. 

This is not to brag or anything like that.  It's more show that Ash can be just as effective as he was before.  Even for a non Ash main and using a controller.  The trick is to not wait til the last minute to toggle the marking while with a group.  You can do it the whole time. It's not going to cost you a lot of energy while doing it, and you'll get that energy back should someone kill the enemy.  Here's the good part, you can still use all of the other abilities while BladeStorm marking is active. 

There can still be a few more tweaks that can be done.  Ash isn't useless as some are screaming.  I hope my post helps those who were curious like console players who can't try it just yet. 

P.S.  I haven't read the last few pages.  So I might be saying some things that have already been mentioned.  Happy Hunting Tenno. 

[Drufo]

4 hours ago, AxxysQcWyld said:

 teleport you behind your target if you aim at it for an easy finisher. 

What you don't consider is that Fatal Teleport does exactly this, so Blade Storm wouldn't add nothing. It would be even more a "press 4 and forget", and that's why it's been discarded

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

4 hours ago, Yazeth said:

I was talking about the animation, not about the marking. If you accidentally tagged an Ancient Disruptor, you are forced to attack it until you reach the cap of attacks (around 15-18). With the new BS, the Ancient gets attacked only 3 times max. 

 

Old BS: Attack enemy until it dies or you reach the cap of attacks (+15).

New BS: Attack enemy once per mark (resulting up to 3 attacks max).

that's why u 3 the ancient and jump right into blade storm. Either way Still faster the old way, and only 25 energy with max efficiency. Its a awful BS utl rework. Now your 3 is just as fast with less energy ..why use his 4?

[Racter]

Hold to start marking, tap to attack, hold again to stop marking. Scrap the three mark system, buff the base damage by 1.5-2x and attack speed by ~1.5. Add a (small, non-intrusive and non-scaling) targeting reticle along the lines of Peacemaker to limit the amount of random mouse sweeping we have to do to mark things on slightly different elevations. Keep the cost per marked target system.

 

Though to be honest it's been a week without so much as a peep, despite 2? 3? hotfixes. I'm getting a strong feeling we're 100% stuck with this as it is, meaning Bladestorm will remain objectively worse than almost any gun, melee weapons, or other warframe ability. I don't understand why they bother putting these feedback threads up, it feels like they just ignore every bit of it on every rework they've done.

[StonedMakak]

37 minutes ago, Racter said:

Though to be honest it's been a week without so much as a peep, despite 2? 3? hotfixes. I'm getting a strong feeling we're 100% stuck with this as it is, meaning Bladestorm will remain objectively worse than almost any gun, melee weapons, or other warframe ability. I don't understand why they bother putting these feedback threads up, it feels like they just ignore every bit of it on every rework they've done.

As much as I dislike this "rework", I would wait for at least a month before calling it quits. I don't think damage or energy economy is going to get adjusted, since 1. DE wanted to tone down Bladestorm, 2. The greater complaint is that it still lacks interactivity (I base that on the fact that almost everybody who complains points to the damn cutscene, whereas people tend to differ more when it comes to numbers and DPS). And adjusting numbers would be simple, trivial even (as far as coding difficulty goes).

On the other hand, dealing with the elephant in the room, and getting rid of the cutscene is a far more complex task that requires some thought. If you just remove it and leave Ash to roam free, people will complain that's a more mobile Peacemaker clone (no pun intended), not to mention it takes away from the "hands-on" feel that Ash has. Plus it will speed up the ability, and one of the goals was to make it less spamable.

What I, and many others, expected of them, and still do, is to make an actual redesign of the skill, put as much effort into it as with Exalted Blade. In a way I'm glad that we didn't get a "Hey guys, we added 5 here and subtracted 17 there! Whew, totally different experience, no?", as it suggest that they may be aware of the fact that they botched it, and are considering more substantial changes that will affect the actual gameplay, and not the min-max spreadsheets. 

Edited December 3, 2016 by tisdfogg
I have 666 upvotes and 555 posts. Today, life is good.

[Sashmaul]

16 hours ago, Parvikistan said:

Hello. In light of recent events, I would like to say that I don't  really like the way Bladestorm is now. I understand that you want to make it a less impersonal ability and not a press 4 to win button, and I am totally on board with that. Furthermore, I would have an idea at how to make it that way.

So, Ash's wrist blades, I love them, how he unsheathes them during bladestorm, very nice touch. My idea is to take them a step further, make then more of an exalted-blade like ability, but keep the finisher damage and the bleed proc. So basically make it a toggled ability, with energy drain (it would make ash's kit more all-round better, since you WILL have to build duration on him, making smoke screen an important ability if you build for raw damage), with custom finishers specifically for it. It's damage to be affected by power strength & combo meter (as it is now)... if need be maybe a little scaling from weapon, but I think it'd be a bit too much.

Also, bladestorm gives Ash invulnerability while performing it. To compensate for that maybe add a certain amount of damage reduction while it's toggled, add in a smoky effect around Ash for the duration of the ability, like a shadow form-ish thingie xD

On a side note, to make Ash's teleport more fluid, maybe make it a blink-like ability? With a fixed distance maybe, so you don't teleport for kilometers at a time? Just a though :)

Anyway, that's my idea about Ash's Bladestorm... So... some feedback from fellow Tenno? Is it a good idea or do you have other ideas? :D

 

I Think Parvikistan has something here I am on board with. I dont think he needs to be invulnerable in the toggle mode something more akin to Titania's evasion would be good as he has the smokescreen. I mean you can keep the marking system so if you press 3 while in bladestorm it will teleport to the marked targets with each sucessive press. 

I think as the rework stands right now, it feels like Excal before his rework because the has an ok 1 ability, an evasion skill, and also a mobility skill. Now we have a wonky 4 skill, I mean do you think if radial javelin had gotten mark mode would that have been any more acceptable? 

I really just dont want to sit in a cinematic and watch the game instead of playing it and what Parvikistan has suggested with a few tweeks would make this fun.  

Edited December 3, 2016 by Sashmaul

[(XBOX)DaRk FiGuReZ]

So i know there has been a lot of emotion flying about after the ash bladestorm rework with some players saying that they liked it and some saying that they DE didnt fix the problems that they wanted.

So i had an idea that may make everyone happy. Note: this is a running idea and other peoples input would be accepted and appreciated.

My idea is that since Bladestrom locks players in animation without much control over what they are doing or who they are attacking that a a control system could be added to it, while keeping the same feel. when Blade storm is cast it takes on a combination of Embers World on Fire and Mesa's Peacemaker Abilities. so when activated ash will cast his shadow ability, but keeping him in one place (stay with me on this). this can also be cast while in the air. there will be a input HUD on screen similar to Ivara's Quiver where if you press a different button one of 4 different things could happen.

1st would be that you send out a clone to the enemy that you are looking at. to keep from spamming clones you can only send out 3 at a time. once that clone has finished its animation, it can be sent back out again

2nd would be to send your ash to attack an enemy. once that animation is finished it would put you back in the same place you cast the ability so you can carry on.

3rd is that you just send out clones to attack enemy's as the normal Bladestorm would (so kills everyone within radius) but doesn't send out your ash. instead it takes you out of the Bladestorm ability and you can carry on playing as normal while your clones are still attacking enemy's with the radius.

4th would be just to cast baldestorm as normal.

To compromise with just the 4th ability. the casting cost will change.

like Mesa's and Ember's Ultimate ability there is a initial casting cost of 50 and then the ability drains over time. however the more you just send out clones the ability starts to drain faster. also the 3rd and 4th abilities mentioned will be different. just to send out clones will cost just an extra 25 and to cast the normal Bladestorm will be an extra 50. so that it keep to the full 100 energy as standard. this can be altered with the use of efficiency mods (i dont know the math of how much exactly by but you get the idea)

Also so that you cant send out a clone to an enemy to someone across the map, there will be a shadow like radius around ash so only enemys in that area can be attacked. 

Hope this makes sense, i tried to explain it the best i can. if you have ideas to make this better please say. 

Also hope DE will see this <3

 

 

  

Edited December 3, 2016 by (XB1)DaRk FiGuReZ

[Hypernaut1]

No DE, don't take my cut scene away!  I like it. It makes Ash unique. I would speed it up though.

Honestly, there are a ton of WFs to choose from. If some if you hate basically everything about the frame..... Just play something else please. 

Excalibur was reworked, but they basically only replaced one ability and tweaked others. They didn't completely changed him into something else. Some of you are basically asking for a different frame with your suggestions. 

[minidelight]

23 hours ago, Hypernaut1 said:

One myth that I keep seeing repeated is that BS doesn't kill multiple targets faster than weapons. It's not true, not even for higher level enemies. BS is still rather good at thinning crowds.

BS is not efficient in any way...its just boring, press 4 and  wave around mouse and press 4 again and go make some tea, the problems with BS are still there, the long &amp;#&#33; boring cinematics and after we still have ash stuck after it finishes the animation, where there is a small delay until we can roll/jump, and now we have a extra minigame of marking targets.

So much compelling gameplay /sarcasm.

 

And yes, proper modded  weapons still kill faster than BS (and its more fun than watching cinematics),  ex: against lv105(average lv of sortie 3) corrupted gunners/bombards

Reworked bs 200%power str :

https://youtu.be/_EgjanZf8CQ

galatine p. 0 forma:

https://youtu.be/J7Ss0dIXPd0

 

IMHO reworked BS is trash tier

 

 

Edited December 3, 2016 by minidelight

[StonedMakak]

16 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

No DE, don't take my cut scene away!  I like it. It makes Ash unique. I would speed it up though.

Honestly, there are a ton of WFs to choose from. If some if you hate basically everything about the frame..... Just play something else please. 

Excalibur was reworked, but they basically only replaced one ability and tweaked others. They didn't completely changed him into something else. Some of you are basically asking for a different frame with your suggestions. 

DE could make it so that Ash would have a default horse-head helmet. So much more unique! /s

Uniqueness =/= good.

Seriously though, I'm not saying that you should not like the cutscene. If you enjoy it, more power to you. But basically saying that everyone who doesn't should GTFO, because they hate everything about the frame is a bit of an overreaction, no?

And don't downplay how drastic the EB rework was to support that bias of yours. IIRC Excal was the first frame to have a whole ability removed and replaced with a brand new one, introducing a completely new mechanic of exalted weapons. His pre-rework kit was that of a all-rounder, and post-rework he is undoubtedly designed to be melee-focused. And also, I remember vividly copious amounts of rage threads by Excal veterans, complaining about the removal of Super Jump, arguing to the death that it was irreplaceable, not to mention all the salt about LoS. They pretty much did change him into something else, mechanics-wise.

[UcanDomates]

On 11/25/2016 at 11:03 PM, LycanPT said:

I think what players really wanted out of ash bladestorm was to not be stuck in an animation and that market targets could still be killed by teammates, all you accomplished in my perspective was straitgh nerf the ability while keeping the annoying features of it, you didn't rework teh mechanic, you just added a condition to trigger it

See this comment DE. This really sums up everything

[DEATHLOK]

9 hours ago, Awazx said:

It's funny; The majority of complaints with the previous mechanics were concerning the animation and is the only thing that [DE] has not removed.

Indeed.

[kim135]

On 2016/6/15 at 6:04 AM, [DE]Danielle said:

We decided to rework Blade Storm after almost a full year of the same themed feedback showing up. We often heard and experienced a power that doesn't allow for player participation beyond pressing 4 once and waiting. We have been increasingly committed to participatory powers (especially ultimates) and focused on emphasizing that for Blade Storm.

Blade Storm Changes:

• Blade Storm now has a new 'Mark Enemy' mode that is activated when you hit 4. Ash enters target mode, which you can freely target enemies with your reticule up to 3 times each for attack. Once you're satisfied, press 4 again, Blade Storm begins and all targeted enemies are attacked!
• Each mark costs Energy (15) which is affected by Mods. If a marked enemy is killed by a squad mate, you will get the energy back. 
• Marks made while invisible by any source will have a cheaper base cost (10). 
• Enemies killed by Blade Storm will dissolve, leaving no corpse behind to detect!

Teleport Changes:

• Teleport will now allow you to target anything with a health bar! Instead of being limited to Teleporting to allies or enemies, you can now teleport to objects. 

Smokescreen Changes:

• Smoke Screen can now be cast while running (no lower body movement lock).
• Smoke Screen can now be cast while in-air! 

Please note that we will be closely monitoring your practical feedback - please feel free to share videos and discussions after playing this rework. It'll help us if you include details on your build used too. 

Edit: Non-constructive feedback, dev-bashing, and any other content that violates Code of Conduct will be removed.

Edit: All related threads will be merged here. Thank you! 

With the smoke screen that can be cast in air can prevent me from dying in air while Im using my Ash P

[THegolo123]

On 12/2/2016 at 6:19 AM, AxxysQcWyld said:

Ok so ive been thinking about it and here is the idea i came up with for ash's bladestorm you press 4 and it equips you with your ash daggers and spawn 2 clones of you the 2 clone teleport to random ennemies in a certain range around you and so as normaly they kill them but here is the thing i moddified in that time that your clones are going all assassin on the ennemies you get a special way of melee by pressing e for a melee attack with ash's daggers if an ennemy is in the reticle on your screen you are teleported behind them to do a finisher attack if no ennemies are on the reticle you slash with the special stance for the daggers  during the whole technique your energie slowly depletes a little like excalibur's exalted blade or valkyre's hysteria (resume:you press 4. 2 clones pops up and do the old fashion bladestrom in a radius around you while you equip your dagger's and start teleporting and doing finishers in the back of every ennemie you target all the while your energy slowly goes down) .sorry for the errors english is not my native language.

His blade storm is good as it stands. People ignore his 8 x dmg multipler while invis but don't care about dont they.

Edited December 3, 2016 by THegolo123
Grammar

[Hypernaut1]

30 minutes ago, UcanDomates said:

See this comment DE. This really sums up everything

wasnt DE more concerned about their own objective of making ultimates more enagaging rather than changing a frame because of player complaints? I think that was their main focus, which is what they did. I specifically remember a dev stream where they said they wanted to keep the animations because it was part of the characters identity.

[Yazeth]

4 hours ago, (XB1)FCastle74 said:

that's why u 3 the ancient and jump right into blade storm. Either way Still faster the old way, and only 25 energy with max efficiency. Its a awful BS utl rework. Now your 3 is just as fast with less energy ..why use his 4?

The new BS is still as quick if not quicker to end than the old BS when the animation starts. With the old BS you can still target an Ancient by mistake as well. Everything sounds good in theory, but it isn't always practical in reality. Also...

 

22 hours ago, (XB1)FCastle74 said:

Meanwhile everyone is waiting for Ash to stop stabbing things with his toothpicks. still waiting ......oh look a teammate is down....ash cant help hes tickling that ancient to death over there....still tickling....(new bard frame plays jeopardy song).......lol

I merely argued against your previous statement this entire time.

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

1 hour ago, Yazeth said:

The new BS is still as quick if not quicker to end than the old BS when the animation starts. With the old BS you can still target an Ancient by mistake as well. Everything sounds good in theory, but it isn't always practical in reality. Also...

 

I merely argued against your previous statement this entire time.

 Watching the animation not kill the ancient..thats my point..even "IF" i "mark" it 3 TIMES..the old way it still killed the ancient and still just as annoying either way,  the old way was still faster and thats not up for debate. Its not on par with any other 4 period...Steve said they wanted to get rid of the screen poping...this BS rework does not belong in this game.

Edited December 3, 2016 by (XB1)FCastle74

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

6 hours ago, Yazeth said:

The new BS is still as quick if not quicker to end than the old BS when the animation starts. With the old BS you can still target an Ancient by mistake as well. Everything sounds good in theory, but it isn't always practical in reality. Also...

 

I merely argued against your previous statement this entire time.

 

Also I started this thread back in September that got the attention of some devs and community moderators. There were some brilliant reworks, still are. Did the devs use any of them? NO! INSTEAD they came into our orbiter and smeered peanut butter all over our $90 choclate donut(for some)  lol Again this BS rework is not what the community ask for, WE DO NOT WANT IT.

Edited December 3, 2016 by (XB1)FCastle74

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

3 hours ago, Hypernaut1 said:

wasnt DE more concerned about their own objective of making ultimates more enagaging rather than changing a frame because of player complaints? I think that was their main focus, which is what they did. I specifically remember a dev stream where they said they wanted to keep the animations because it was part of the characters identity.

No, Steve said "they wanted to get rid of the screen poping" That didnt happen..they just added two steps before the screen poping. umm ?

Edited December 3, 2016 by (XB1)FCastle74

[SenorClipClop]

On 12/2/2016 at 2:58 AM, (PS4)Vexx757 said:

one enemies that are marked red can be killed by other players

They successfully changed BS to do this in the rework.

On 12/2/2016 at 2:58 AM, (PS4)Vexx757 said:

and two if you don`t want to see the animation press four again and you run around while the clones kill things

DE tried this in a early test version of the rework and then scrapped the idea because it was too brokenly powerful.

On 12/2/2016 at 2:58 AM, (PS4)Vexx757 said:

Ash as an assassin marking enemies makes sense but you’re missing the point, the important thing; how he plays

You're answering your own question here. The reason Bladestorm was reworked was because there was a huge difference between how the developers envisioned Ash (a stealthy, tactical assassin) and how a large majority of (unskilled) players were playing him (an effortless nuke mage). "How he plays" was the problem in the first place that inspired the change.

Bladestorm now works like Saryn's Miasma - not so strong on its own and can no longer be spammed mindlessly in the vague direction of enemies to cheese difficulty, but instead now requires timing, placement, the use of other abilities and a mild modicum of skill to pull off in full effectiveness. Back when Saryn was reworked, many players got all ornery because their nuking ability could no longer be done on a macro while the player went to grab a snack, and now we're seeing similar threads about Ash.

[tyranosaurus]

13 minutes ago, SenorClipClop said:

On 02/12/2016 at 8:58 AM, (PS4)Vexx757 said:

one enemies that are marked red can be killed by other players

They successfully changed BS to do this in the rework.

What do you mean? I have ran missions with ash in team, and I was unable to kill his marked targets. One exterminate in particular was very annoying because of that, I went ahead to kill stuff and guess what... I shoot and they don't take any damage. At first I thought it was lag but when I shot next target it died and shot previous one again and still nothing. So I had to go ahead who knows how far to find any targets to kill because dude was just spamming BS and it took him too long to kill stuff, it was literally waste of time. 

[Achromatic.]

39 minutes ago, SenorClipClop said:

DE tried this in a early test version of the rework and then scrapped the idea because it was too brokenly powerful.

No, they said it was boring. They tried a World on Fire copy which I'm assuming is not what people are asking for. We don't want another radial AoE that follows us, we just want to select an area/mark targets to send clones out to. We want to run around but we don't need the clones following us.