DE, No More Frame Reworks Please. Just Stop

[Kagisnad]

a stagnant game is a dead game

a game without changes is a stagnant game

warframe is not a stagnant game

it's frustrating to see your favorite frame changed, but understand the necessity. the day DE stops reworking, rebalancing, and re-thinking the game, is the day warframe dies.

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

1 minute ago, (XB1)PompousNinja156 said:

I think the main issue they have is overadjusting and underadjusting some reworks, especially overadjusting in a net nerf or underadjusting to the point where it was worthless to begin with, which makes me especially fearful for Limbo.

Aside from Mesa (and Saryn, who I have no opinion on), all the recent reworks were ruined by this over/under mix and mash.

Volt shield is now mobile but drains a truckload of energy. Volt's ult is a now CC tool that has a damage cap, so it breaks faster than you can apply it.

Mag lost her % based scaling for the ability to deal with armor (which needs a massive rework all of it's own), which would've been fine if enemy scaling had a wasn't exponential and ridiculous like it is now. She's be 100% useless if it weren't for some gimmicky weapon interactions, and by that point, you're better off using your gimmick weapon on a better frame.

Excalibur's Exalted blade changes were perfect....until they tacked on the energy cost for the slide attack for literally no reason, and to this day still don't allow you to at least use Body Count, forever dooming Exalted Melee in general to be worse than regular melee weapons you don't pay energy to use.

Trinity was nerfed to reduce cheese despite enemies still 1-shotting us through bugged shield mechanics and absurd scaling, only to basically play the exact same, but capped at 75% instead of 99%.

The thing is, when they get it wrong, it tends to stay that way or they issue some bandaid fixes then leave it to decay for a year or two instead of frequently fine-tuning until they get everything into a fully functional state.

To date, they have implemented more band-aids than a children's hospital. There was literallly no reason to implement Body Count & Harkkonar Scope instead of readily admitting the three second window was a dumb idea and adding more time to it, and I wager we'll wait a year or two before they actually buff both timers to be 15 seconds default.

-shrug- Things get back logged due to new content demand plus their desire to make new content.  And unlike other games that have halted their new content train to fix their game warframe isn't in a spot like that.  I'd rather take a solution that works in the meantime while they make up their minds and potentially find a better way to solve it rather than just have something left alone and never receive attention like the OP is asking for.

[(PSN)robotwars7]

3 hours ago, Xylyssa said:

Nekros). Saryn's abilities don't synergize the way they are supposed to, she can't survive in ANYTHING without the use of very specific setups,

I'm guessing you don't use Regenerative Molt; you should, because it makes her very hard to kill. I use it and my Saryn can regenerate health faster than most enemies can take it away.

also, no more reworks mean neglected frames like Oberon, Hydroid and Limbo will never get to shine. screw that noise, they NEED reworks. it's always the same whenever a rework comes round: people complain, then the complaints die down. Ash will still be used, and if it means less blade-spam, that's fine by me.

[Noobverest]

9 minutes ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

Lol.  Even though this is sarcasm it's still poorly done.  Pre patch saryn was 4.  Just 4.  nothing else was used.

Current saryn has you use 1 a lot yeah.  But you also use your 2 and 3 along with it.  and occasionally can use your 4 in combo in order to do amazing damage.

Try again.

Saryn saw a lot more usage pre-rework.

 

I think when you don't see a frame being used that often, it kind of shows what the community and player-base is thinking when it comes to a frames rework.

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

Just now, Noobverest said:

Saryn saw a lot more usage pre-rework.

 

I think when you don't see a frame being used that often, it kind of shows what the community and player-base is thinking when it comes to a frames rework.

lolo okay.  no.  She sees less time now because she isn't brain dead easy to play.  People with numbers have already proven you can hit the same damage numbers and potentially higher with her current kit compared to her old.  You just have to actually do work in order to do it.  But keep pigeon holing these weak arguments.  It's going real well for you.

[(XBOX)PompousNinja156]

Just now, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

-shrug- Things get back logged due to new content demand plus their desire to make new content.  And unlike other games that have halted their new content train to fix their game warframe isn't in a spot like that.  I'd rather take a solution that works in the meantime while they make up their minds and potentially find a better way to solve it rather than just have something left alone and never receive attention like the OP is asking for.

Thing is, backlogs stack up. They stated that completely rebalancing the way enemy armor and damage scale was on their Boutbon list, and something that major will affect everything from mods, to warframe powers, to weapons in the arsenal, to affinity gains, drop chances, Sorties, Raids and so on, and so on.A disaster of Godzilla proportions that only becomes exponentially more difficult to fine-tune because all the other things attached to it need fine-tuning themselves. And all that new content they add is just continuing to build on a foundation held together by staples, bubblegum, and some scotch tape. 

Putting off important  fixes and adjustments in favor of temporary solutions to focus on new content that almost assuredly in need of it's own fixes and adjustments is what got us all these balance issues to begin with.

Can you imagine what it'd be like down the line when they have to deal with Armor & Enemy scaling and the massive rebalances that follow? They'll just fall back on the bad habit they have, and end up putting out another half-measure instead of going all the way with it.

 

[Noobverest]

6 minutes ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

lolo okay.  no.  She sees less time now because she isn't brain dead easy to play.  People with numbers have already proven you can hit the same damage numbers and potentially higher with her current kit compared to her old.  You just have to actually do work in order to do it.  But keep pigeon holing these weak arguments.  It's going real well for you.

She's seeing less time now because she's annoying to play.

There is nothing in Warframe that is hard to play, it's either annoying, or really convenient (or "brain dead")

I mean, I think you probably think of yourself as one of the world's most intelligent people for being able to play Saryn, but I'm sorry to break it to you... She's really not that complex.

[Buzkyl]

1 hour ago, Noobverest said:

Saryn saw a lot more usage pre-rework.

 

I think when you don't see a frame being used that often, it kind of shows what the community and player-base is thinking when it comes to a frames rework.

That's because the current meta in most players mind incentivizes getting the most kills with the least effort possible. Players want to be able to press 4 and wipe the map loot and repeat. However DE doesn't want that.

Alot of players want easy mode and will move to the frame that can get that. Before Ash it was Saryn who got reworked, before her it was Mesa who lost the auto 360 aimbot and before her was excalibur with RJ Draco farming.

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

1 minute ago, (XB1)PompousNinja156 said:

Thing is, backlogs stack up. They stated that completely rebalancing the way enemy armor and damage scale was on their Boutbon list, and something that major will affect everything from mods, to warframe powers, to weapons in the arsenal, to affinity gains, drop chances, Sorties, Raids and so on, and so on.A disaster of Godzilla proportions that only becomes exponentially more difficult to fine-tune because all the other things attached to it need fine-tuning themselves. And all that new content they add is just continuing to build on a foundation held together by staples, bubblegum, and some scotch tape. 

Putting off important  fixes and adjustments in favor of temporary solutions to focus on new content that almost assuredly in need of it's own fixes and adjustments is what got us all these balance issues to begin with.

Can you imagine what it'd be like down the line when they have to deal with Armor & Enemy scaling and the massive rebalances that follow? They'll just fall back on the bad habit they have, and end up putting out another half-measure instead of going all the way with it.

 

I'm not saying I like the fact that DE has a mountain of work to do.  I'm just saying i'd rather be positive.  And that's how i'm choosing to view these ash changes.  they aren't perfect.  but they are a step in the right direction (imo.)  and I feel that way about most things.  I'm still undecided how I feel about riven mods as a mechanic.

1 minute ago, Noobverest said:

She's seeing less time now because she's annoying to play.

There is nothing in Warframe that is hard to play, it's either annoying, or really convenient (or "brain dead")

I mean, I think you probably think of yourself as one of the world's most intelligent people for being able to play Saryn, but I'm sorry to break it to you... She's really not that complex.

Word it however you want to bro it's not changing anything.  People stopped playing her because she's not stupid easy to play anymore.  That happens in every game.  That's how humans are.  Regardless if 1 or 1000 or 10000 people play her the rework added synergy to her kit and still maintained her design and damage.  That's objectively true and a good thing.

And actually no.  I don't.  nice assumption though.

[Tizodd]

39 minutes ago, Noobverest said:

Whoopidy Doo.

 

Saryn rework is great because you have to press 2 1 4/ 3 2 1 4 instead of having to just press 4.

Wow. Such good rework. Much Amaze.

 

Well that's the idea behind the reworks.  Make frames more balanced instead of press-4-to-win.  Saryn still wrecks and even has two viable ways to be played: Spore build and Toxic Lash build.

[DE] has done a great job on all their reworks so far for the most part:

• Nekros is better than he was before because you have more control over what minions are summoned and for ho long.
• Mesa is better and more interactive.  She was basically just a turret before.
• Saryn is still extremely powerful as I mentioned above.
• Excalibur's change was needed so he could be more of the swordsman he's supposed to be instead of a walking turret.
• Ash is more interactive now and plays much more like a ninja instead of a one-button-spammer.
• Mag is better overall but still needs some work imo.  She was way too OP vs Corpus before the rework.  She needed to be changed.

Give it some time and you'll find the Ash rework has made him much more fun.  I went with a balanced build and run Fatal Teleport.  My Smokescreen lasts 12 seconds and I use Bladestorm primarily for killing low-mid level enemies; I use it to apply Slash procs on higher level enemies.  I actually feel like I'm playing a strategic ninja now instead of mindlessly spamming one button.

[Noobverest]

4 minutes ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

Word it however you want to bro it's not changing anything.  People stopped playing her because she's not stupid easy to play anymore.  That happens in every game.  That's how humans are.  Regardless if 1 or 1000 or 10000 people play her the rework added synergy to her kit and still maintained her design and damage.  That's objectively true and a good thing.

And actually no.  I don't.  nice assumption though.

Yea, that's what I just said.

Thanks... for quoting and rewording what I said? I guess.

 

Question about bold though.... Is pressing a few more buttons really that hard? I always found everything in Warframe simple.

[7Random77]

1 hour ago, Mingnit said:

 

 

 

Oh wait...I don't just press 4 anymore, I also use 1, 2, 3, and of course 4. Maybe that's why...I should go back and use 4 all the time and complain how it's crap and it's no where as easy to use as it used to be. 

 

Only problem with reworked Saryn and recent Ash rework, more energy cost to do same damage. They could at least adjusted energy costs and remove invincible enemy stuff. (And I am not Ash player, don't even have forma on him)

Edited November 26, 2016 by 7Random77

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

Just now, Noobverest said:

Yea, that's what I just said.

Thanks... for quoting and rewording what I said? I guess.

 

Question about bold though.... Is pressing a few more buttons really that hard? I always found everything in Warframe simple.

Not the right person to ask.  You should be asking the people who chose to stop playing her.

things in general are a bit harder for me since I play console.  Which means trying to tie abilities together with a controller is a tad annoying.  but I make it work.

[OkniolasPrime]

Oh, it's this thread again. Oh boy I'm surprised.

I won't be reading every each one of the answers to this thread, mainly because I am a lazy bastard, deal with it.

Anyhow, on to the point.

From everything I see here, all the reworking bashing is people being salty that they need to actually do something to achieve results. 

Ash was an old frame, with no real synergy nor skill anywhere to be found, you just had to press 4 and watch a slideshow of finishers.

I'm not saying the new Rework requires anymore skill than the old Ash, but it does seem to be too damn hard for people to aim at the enemy to kill them.

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

Just now, 7Random77 said:

Only problem with reworked Saryn and recent Ash rework, more energy cost to do same damage. They could at least adjusted energy costs and remove invincible enemy stuff. (And no, I am not Ash player, don't even have forma on him)

Actually saryn can exceed her previous versions damage if she combos properly.  Can't say that on ash just yet.  But either way saryn does need either more energy or the moves should cost less.

[Culaio]

Lets get something straight, sayn doesnt have abiltity synergy it has ability dependency, without setting up right combo's saryn is pretty weak compared to other frames, its abiltiies take to long to set up to be really useful in normal play, for example I a while ago was in team with saryn(I very rarely see saryn truth to be told), we were together in room he was doing something to the side, I didnt realize what he was doing since I was focused on killing enemies, after I quickly killed all enemies I realized what he was doing, he was setting up his ability combo, but since it was taking a while everything was dead by the time he finished preperations.

Saryan can be really good against higher level enemies but in normal play he has almost zero use, and since DE changed way farming for primes work people much less stay in long endless missions where saryn can shine, most people prefer to quit mission when they start having problems killing enemies, saryn can shine here but if other teammates can't do anything then whats the point for them to stay ?

Edited November 26, 2016 by Culaio

[Samotte]

Obviously, when they try to add some gameplay and veriety, some players don't like it... I just think that more freedom can't kill the game.

I'm pretty sure a lot of old ash players put fleeting expertise on it, and only use the old blade storm, forgetting the 3 other powers. Now, they see that duration IS useful on ash (smoke screen, btw now you can cast in while running, which is awesome to rush with your melee weapon). 

Honnestly, i've never been disapointed by any rework. We are still free to play the warframes the way we want to, we just have more possibilities

[Noobverest]

Just now, Tizodd said:

Well that's the idea behind the reworks.  Make frames more balanced instead of press-4-to-win.  Saryn still wrecks and even has two viable ways to be played: Spore build and Toxic Lash build.

[DE] has done a great job on all their reworks so far for the most part:

• Nekros is better than he was before because you have more control over what minions are summoned and for ho long.
• Mesa is better and more interactive.  She was basically just a turret before.
• Saryn is still extremely powerful as I mentioned above.
• Excalibur's change was needed so he could be more of the swordsman he's supposed to be instead of a walking turret.
• Ash is more interactive now and plays much more like a ninja instead of a one-button-spammer.
• Mag is better overall but still needs some work imo.  She was way too OP vs Corpus before the rework.  She needed to be changed.

Give it some time and you'll find the Ash rework has made him much more fun.  I went with a balanced build and run Fatal Teleport.  My Smokescreen lasts 12 seconds and I use Bladestorm primarily for killing low-mid level enemies; I use it to apply Slash procs on higher level enemies.  I actually feel like I'm playing a strategic ninja now instead of mindlessly spamming one button.

I like the Nekros, Mesa, Excalibur, Frost, and Rhino reworks, so they're not all bad. But if DE wants to really rework on older frames, I think they really should fix all the problems with the frames before moving onto another frame.

 

Saryn is iffy because while she has good damage, I have to pick between survivability or powerful abilities. Her abilities require too many factors to be able to work well together. You need to build duration, efficiency, range, and power strength. Most frames don't have that. DE never bothered addressing that issue which is another reason why there are so few Saryns (despite how many people say "I use saryn all da time."). You really don't see that many Saryn's out there, especially for end-game content.

Mag went from a faction killer into another faction killer. She's another frame that really could have used some stat buffs to make her more viable for end-game because she's just really squishy. I like how she can strip armor away, but shes like Banshee in a way. Good abilities, but too squishy so no one wants to use them in high-level content.

 

Ash is going the Saryn/Mag route. His blade storm damage is the same, he can still kill. However, the energy cost is too high for him to really do much with blade storm, and it's better to build for smoke bomb instead since he's really mobile now with it. The real issue that people have with Ash was never actually addressed (invulerable timer on enemies). I know that the invulnerabilty was added so Ash would never be stuck in blade storm animation forever, but I mean... blade storm kind of sucks, and it should have been removed and reworked with a completely new ability. This Ash rework was somewhat half-assed and if it took a year to do this, it feels depressing.

[IggySnow]

42 minutes ago, Kagisnad said:

a stagnant game is a dead game

a game without changes is a stagnant game

warframe is not a stagnant game

it's frustrating to see your favorite frame changed, but understand the necessity. the day DE stops reworking, rebalancing, and re-thinking the game, is the day warframe dies.

that would be true if DE wasn't constantly adding new content. we get like 4 new frames a year, tons of weapons, tilesets, etc. reworking isn't necessary unless the frame has no use or purpose. like oberon, hydroid, or limbo. those frames see very little play because the community basically agrees that their kits are bad

[Gabry_96]

4 minutes ago, 7Random77 said:

Only problem with reworked Saryn and recent Ash rework, more energy cost to do same damage. They could at least adjusted energy costs and remove invincible enemy stuff. (And I am not Ash player, don't even have forma on him)

And I'd say: THANK GOD. Energy is the most unbalanced thing in this game. Most of the frames don't even run out of energy, ever. We literally have Primed Flow that gives a S#&$ton of energy to any frame, we have two efficiency mods that let you reach 75% energy use reduction, you have a Focus school which is completely unbalanced since it refills your energy bar at really high speed, and last but not least, we have freaking Trinity who refills everyone's energy instantly at no cost. Let's face the truth: We NEED frames who use more energy. We need everyone to use more energy, and we need balanced ways to reduce energy consumption. 

Maybe no one will agree with me, but the problem of this game is the lack of skillplays. Spamming powers simply isn't skill. Don't get me wrong, I like almost every frame in this game, but there isn't one who isn't unbalanced.

That being said, I really hope DE will give us more frames based on Saryn or Ash's reworks. They are frames who use their energy and their powers in a proper way.

[Firetempest]

Need to be more interactive with the actual gameplay. good. 

Make game eventually end in a one hit kill for either side so fire and forget weapons and abilities are preferable. bad.

Its not the rework specifically that make it worse. Its the scaleing and general mechanics of the enemies that makes any wait and tag moves insane on their own. If enemies were taken into account, they would have added smoke to the 4. and given him a new ability. just like the combination of skills for Excalibur.

Edited November 26, 2016 by Firetempest

[Sziklamester]

My opinion about the reworks general is some needs some not needs but which is sad many peoples can't see the game and saclings itself broken and if you touch up any of the frames it could be cheesy or outta crap depend on the current state of the game. The reworks supposed to be make frames better to use and more fun instead of put you extra work to be successful. Yeah those persons whom butt hurt and get everything in game or hardcore player die because of boredom but the majority of playerbase enjoying the things as it is. Peoples cry about rework this rework that because can't stand if something work properly in a broken system in other hand cry if once the devs change something which was broken into useful but I still not seen any really useful reworks however the most of frames needs tweaks on stats and on abilities a little more but the devs keep making "balanced" which means they nerf to the ground stuffs for the call of balance. I played ash before rework and i played now too but not really seems solved any real problems just tried to bandaid something which worked at least. About Saryn I cannot say so much the one button press not fun but 4 button press is still boring. The frames overall need massive stat boosts and the enemy level need a limit where the stats not scaling up to more. Abilities not scaling well so basically you can just waste your mana if you haven't hardcore mod gear up on your frame because of effectiveness. In all level you need to be effective but in higher level you need to be more careful that mean it is a stronger level but if they nerf an ability or make somehow useless then those frames will suck on those levels because their abilities scaling bad. 

 

Saryn for example not a fun to use only on lower levels when your spores can infect mobs and you can sit and see how those die. The core problem is there is a crap ai which not makes the enemies interesting to fight and only you need to care the overrun because these are just bulletsponges with better stats. For fun game they need to rework their major systems which not working since they updated the game with new content.

[Madway7]

1 hour ago, LegionCynex said:

I'm a Ash Main and I love his Rework, only thing that needs to be changed, is that the Enmmys get friendly fire, when Ash is bladestroming, this will fix all issues with ASH.

At the very least leaving out possible issues with his Bladestorm changes would you at least agree that his Smoke Screen augment needs a range buff?

[tnccs215]

20 minutes ago, Culaio said:

Lets get something straight, sayn doesnt have abiltity synergy it has ability dependency, without setting up right combo's saryn is pretty weak compared to other frames, its abiltiies take to long to set up to be really useful in normal play, for example I a while ago was in team with saryn(I very rarely see saryn truth to be told), we were together in room he was doing something to the side, I didnt realize what he was doing since I was focused on killing enemies, after I quickly killed all enemies I realized what he was doing, he was setting up his ability combo, but since it was taking a while everything was dead by the time he finished preperations.

Saryan can be really good against higher level enemies but in normal play he has almost zero use, and since DE changed way farming for primes work people much less stay in long endless missions where saryn can shine, most people prefer to quit mission when they start having problems killing enemies, saryn can shine here but if other teammates can't do anything then whats the point for them to stay ?

That's... Not completely true. Spores well alone with any status weapon, molt is molt, toxic lash can actually be pretty useful by itself, and Miasma, though week, it actually a pretty good stun.

Sure, she demands more interaction between abilities, but how is that bad? When we have frames that only need you to use one ability over and over again, some codependency is actually quite refresing -- and I say so as someone who constantly plays melee saryn, and I get frustrated how I can build up my combou counter because enemies die too fast.

Yes, some ways to play her demand some ridiculous preparation--- but then again, #notallofthem, and most that do are pretty meta, pretty cheesy, and pretty unnecessary.

[tnccs215]

2 minutes ago, Madway7 said:

At the very least leaving out possible issues with his Bladestorm changes would you at least agree that his Smoke Screen augment needs a range buff?

As a non ash player who attempted to use it yesterday with my sis, yes.