Let's clear up some misunderstanding about the reworks

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

1 minute ago, Doxorn said:

You are being just plain ignorant. If something is not pushed into your face it doesn't exist. I don't like ignorant people.

This is also getting very off-topic. I am done with you.

Nah, bro. I just have a higher standard.

Get back to me when String Theory can actually be tested.'till then, kthnxbai.

Edited December 3, 2016 by (PS4)DesecratedFlame

[Doxorn]

5 minutes ago, (PS4)DesecratedFlame said:

Nah, bro. I just have a higher standard.

Get back to me when String Theory can actually be tested.'till then, kthnxbai.

Yes... I was right. You are ignorant. You have low standards if you got stuck with string theory which is false...

I was never talked about string theory, only in your mind. Spewing your nonsense forced me to write this one last reply

Edited December 3, 2016 by Doxorn

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

2 minutes ago, Doxorn said:

ignorant

Not agreeing with you != lack of knowledge of the subject.

Name calling and salt doesn't make you any more correct. Saying, "I was right," doesn't make it true either.

So again, "kthnxbai,"

[Lindsrhyl]

This thread went full retard pretty quickly...

A cent of mine would be that "Reworks" should be done slowly and with the help/approval of the community (and that, during the rework thinking process). Maybe doing so would allow them to not redo mistakes like Mag's...

[0zryel]

On 11/27/2016 at 5:33 AM, Doxorn said:

Greetings,

since I saw a lot of complainments and compliments about the reworks. I want to clear up some clouds in both side's mind.

Reworking doesn't make something bad. However just reworking doesn't make something good either. It can make it worse or better. ...Like that Nekros rework, do you use his 1st ability regularly?

When someone tell that a specific warframe needs rework, some people outright jump on them and defend it like their life depends on it with comments like that warframe is good as it is and does not need any rework and learn to play with it, etc... (looking at Oberon, Limbo, Valkyr, Banshee, Zephyr, Mag, Chroma, Hydroid, Trinity, Nova, Titania, Vauban, Mesa, Wukong, Nekros, Ash rework topics). Not saying they are bad, but instead that they could be better.

If I'd had to tell some warframes who are in good position, those would be: Frost, Saryn, Excalibur, Equinox, Loki, Rhino, Inaros, Ivara, Nyx, Volt.

 

I can foresee by now comments like:

 "-X warframe got already reworked Y times..." and "X warframe is perfect and does not need any rework!!!!!!!!! :@ Learn to play!"

Reworking something doesn't make it outright good. It has to be reworked and tweaked over and over and over again until it is perfect. 

 

"-But I don't want them to change my favorite warframe!"

If you don't want change then why do you play a game that is in BETA stage? It's all about change.

 

"-X warframe is better than it was! It doesn't need any rework."

Who said it is worse now? It is better yes, but better=/=good. Keep this in mind.

 

"-If you wan't to cheese the game then just go Mirage + Simulor, don't try to make other warframes cheesy"

I don't want them to be cheesy. I want them to be competitive and balanced. BTW Mirage is not guilty in the Mirage+Simulor case, the guilty one is Simulor.

 

Some warframes was completely fine, but when a new system is introduced it can make some abilites negligible. That happened with some warframes.

With some warframes the abilities themselves doesn't even have to be changed just have to play around with the numbers.

 

If something is good is it a reason not to make it better? Definitely no.

If something can be better, why not make it better?

Better means more engaging, more creative, more interesting, more useful, immersive.

I agree with you Doxorn. Sadly not everyone will agree...and this likely will attract some toxic forum mongers... ready yourself Tenno its going be a long fight lol.

Never since I started playing Warframe I have ever seen the community this unstable...in opinions to a point of almost being toxic... I wonder if this means we have a lot new players and less vets?

This worries me...hope the community managers can keep filtering the good and not the bad to DE. 

Edited December 3, 2016 by 0zryel

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

2 minutes ago, Lindsrhyl said:

This thread went full retard pretty quickly...

A cent of mine would be that "Reworks" should be done slowly and with the help/approval of the community (and that, during the rework thinking process). Maybe doing so would allow them to not redo mistakes like Mag's...

The main things should do is bring a frame up to date without losing the core of their being. That's why reworks like Saryn's sucked. It changed her role.  She went from nuker to melee/debuffer. 

Ash's sucked because it made him worse will not addressing any of the issues people had with him. They changed his BS to be slow and "tactical" in a fast paced horde shooter. Teleporting to anything with a lifebar is pretty lame versus the free teleport that he used to have.

etc.

5 minutes ago, 0zryel said:

I wonder if this means we have a lot new players and less vets?

The toxicity comes from DE being hostile towards vets in everything they change. Hell, even the forum rule system is hostile towards vets since the last changes (e.g. warnings points never expiring.)

[Xaranoth]

My two cents:

A "rework" should be an iterative process that takes some amount of time (because of this, during a rework process a significant part of DE's attention will be given to the rework target for about a week or two). A good example of this is the recent vacuum change. DE changed how the vacuum process worked a few times, listening to feedback after each change, before finally settling on a solution that most people were happy with. A bad example would be mag: DE went and changed her and then basically dropped and forgot about her, despite any feedback the community gave. Whether ash follows the path of mag or vacuum will likely determine whether most people view his rework as good or bad.

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

8 minutes ago, Xaranoth said:

before finally settling on a solution that most people were happy with.

Ironically, the solution they settled on was the one the majority of the forums were asking for right from the start. If DE just listened to the community from the start, they could have saved a lot of time.

The problem with the other reworks is exactly the same. The only real problem is the other items they are nerfing reworking don't have the same number of people using them as vacuum so the backlash isn't as large so DE feels like they can get away with ignoring them.

[Voltage]

 

4 hours ago, (PS4)Elvenbane said:

Nope, it hurts whatever point you are trying to make.

[(PSN)Tactless_Ninja]

8 hours ago, Lindsrhyl said:

This thread went full retard pretty quickly...

A cent of mine would be that "Reworks" should be done slowly and with the help/approval of the community (and that, during the rework thinking process). Maybe doing so would allow them to not redo mistakes like Mag's...

I agree the thread is full retard but really?

The community is already helping. Just whining about it isn't constructive in the least bit; particularly the bits involving nuking everything in one button press and wanting to relive the good old days by breaking the game again.

Mag would be considered op if shields were worth a damn, though shield transference comes very close to invincible on corpus maps. Saryn is a close range fighter with debuff capabilities that spread like a plague and energy is no problem if people would build her right. Nekros my only problem with him is all his augs are too good and there's simply no space to fit em all. Ash, all his other abilities are very team friendly but old bs Ash only cared about k/d in a co-op game. Also pretty sure he's a melee character since his abilities revolve around building up the combo counter and getting close to the enemy, but you wouldn't know that would you lazy. Mesa can still wipe entire maps, just can't rubber band the trigger and take a nap. etc etc.

People have this idea about how a frame should play and then don't use it's strengths.

 

[Drakorix]

Well many frames in my opinion needs revisit to make all its abilities usefull and viable - thats the definition of balanced frame in my opinion, when you can make build for any skill, or couple skills. Disagree that Trinity and Banshee is at rework needed sections bcz all of their skills can have builds. trin case its more Link+1st or 4th skill build. banshee 1st +3rd. etc. 

So far from reworks done i can say that the worst in my opinion is Mag. She didnt became weaker, her playstyle just changed but it still Pressing 1 skill because other skills arent viable and synergies between skills make it not much better. Mag was Shield nuker for Triton. Now Mag place balls and shoot them or die bcz augment for 3rd wont help at all. 

Trinity nerf was quite reasonable even tho way how to get it was in de "take player out of comfort zone" style i guess. Even tho i dont see a reason why Mesa has 95DR(damage reduction) for basically nothing while Trinity has to cast 2 skills and need to have enemies in range of 3rd skill, Mirage need to find Dark place in tileset to get also i guess 95%DR, Chroma needs to take damage to get to max armor(..)

 

 

[(PSN)EVILFLUFFMONSTER]

Well, they were not perfect, but I really enjoy the Mag and Saryn reworks - though I completely understand people not liking changes if its not the way they play.

[Drakorix]

3 minutes ago, (PS4)EVILFLUFFMONSTER said:

Well, they were not perfect, but I really enjoy the Mag and Saryn reworks - though I completely understand people not liking changes if its not the way they play.

Wont say Mag and Saryn is uneffective.
Saryn all skills are viable and power up it in the end.
Mag still is not worth using more than 1 skill for "endgame" apart from "opness" of 2nd skill and its synergies of weps.   3rd is useless, 1st can be good for energy supply and last for tiny cc

 

Edited December 4, 2016 by Drakorix

[Lindsrhyl]

13 hours ago, Xaranoth said:

My two cents:

A "rework" should be an iterative process that takes some amount of time (because of this, during a rework process a significant part of DE's attention will be given to the rework target for about a week or two). A good example of this is the recent vacuum change. DE changed how the vacuum process worked a few times, listening to feedback after each change, before finally settling on a solution that most people were happy with. A bad example would be mag: DE went and changed her and then basically dropped and forgot about her, despite any feedback the community gave. Whether ash follows the path of mag or vacuum will likely determine whether most people view his rework as good or bad.

This guy... makes sentences from my key words. We need more like this one.

[Thebel]

4 hours ago, (PS4)Tactless_Ninja said:

Nekros my only problem with him is all his augs are too good and there's simply no space to fit em all.

Nekros was the worst rework in my opinion because all the did was appease the loot farmers, they made Desecrate more useable but in return they nerfed the hell out of Shadow builds. They basically sold out to the meta farmers for Nekros.

[Omnimorph]

On 11/27/2016 at 9:33 AM, Doxorn said:

Greetings,

since I saw a lot of complainments and compliments about the reworks. I want to clear up some clouds in both side's mind.

Reworking doesn't make something bad. However just reworking doesn't make something good either. It can make it worse or better. ...Like that Nekros rework, do you use his 1st ability regularly?

When someone tell that a specific warframe needs rework, some people outright jump on them and defend it like their life depends on it with comments like that warframe is good as it is and does not need any rework and learn to play with it, etc... (looking at Oberon, Limbo, Valkyr, Banshee, Zephyr, Mag, Chroma, Hydroid, Trinity, Nova, Titania, Vauban, Mesa, Wukong, Nekros, Ash rework topics). Not saying they are bad, but instead that they could be better.

If I'd had to tell some warframes who are in good position, those would be: Frost, Saryn, Excalibur, Equinox, Loki, Rhino, Inaros, Ivara, Nyx, Volt.

 

I can foresee by now comments like:

 "-X warframe got already reworked Y times..." and "X warframe is perfect and does not need any rework!!!!!!!!! :@ Learn to play!"

Reworking something doesn't make it outright good. It has to be reworked and tweaked over and over and over again until it is perfect. 

 

"-But I don't want them to change my favorite warframe!"

If you don't want change then why do you play a game that is in BETA stage? It's all about change.

 

"-X warframe is better than it was! It doesn't need any rework."

Who said it is worse now? It is better yes, but better=/=good. Keep this in mind.

 

"-If you wan't to cheese the game then just go Mirage + Simulor, don't try to make other warframes cheesy"

I don't want them to be cheesy. I want them to be competitive and balanced. BTW Mirage is not guilty in the Mirage+Simulor case, the guilty one is Simulor.

 

Some warframes was completely fine, but when a new system is introduced it can make some abilites negligible. That happened with some warframes.

With some warframes the abilities themselves doesn't even have to be changed just have to play around with the numbers.

 

If something is good is it a reason not to make it better? Definitely no.

If something can be better, why not make it better?

Better means more engaging, more creative, more interesting, more useful, immersive.

I agree with a lot of what you're saying here, but on the other side of the equation, there's the old adage "if it ain't broken don't fix it" - i.e. while it's THEORETICALLY true that you can always improve something, PRACTICALLY speaking, developers (and creative people more generally) can get lost in the woods when they fiddle around with things too much, overshoot the mark, and completely mess up what was previously a rickety but serviceable balance.

As someone who's also a musician and artist, I can tell you it's the same for any creative endeavour; that last tiny daub of red you think will just ... make ... the thing ... perfect ... turns out to F*** up the entire composition.  Works of art are incredibly complex synergies, pull on one tiny bit here and the whole thing can come tumbling down.

(Another way of saying all this in a trope is "cut your losses".)

[Shad0wWatcher]

I love how this thread went from discussing about the concept of what a rework is, to it becoming, what could considered "a scientist vs a Buddhist". And then went back on track...sort of.

And i suppose i agree with OP. Then again it's something i've been saying since reworks started being a thing. 

[DxAdder]

I find it strange that Hydroid and Oberon haven't gotten a re-work yet but there focus seems to be on other frame first

 

[Guest]

Some reworks are good some are bad i mean if we look at Excalibur, Frost and Nekros they were given tweaks that made them better and more interesting, but on the other hand some frames like Sayrn, Ash and Mag got reworked to try and make it less "press 4 to win" (3 in Mags vs Corpus)  and more involving which I'm totally for cuz its boring but in the case of all of them there powers arnt on par with other frames now Sayrn eats energy, why mark with Ash when gun kills what your aiming at just as fast most of the time and Mags 1 usefull skills dosnt make a dent now and she cant really be used for high end content :( its a flip of a coin me thinks though Op frames will probably be direct nerf can't make strongest stronger xD.

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

16 hours ago, Doxorn said:

You are being just plain ignorant. If something is not pushed into your face it doesn't exist. I don't like ignorant people.

This is also getting very off-topic. I am done with you.

Don't bother with Desicrated flame.  He basically bashes on anyone that disagrees and will argue over semantics and even quote you fixing what you actually said to try and make themselves sound more legit.  Really you won't get any kind of decent discussion out of them.

As for your thread I agree with most of what's said.  The problem you run into here though is better is subjective because it's a perspective.  I always view reworks as mini updates to the frame.  Either being updated because they are outdated compared to current content/conflict with current design philosophies...OR they simply found a way to make the frame work they way they've always wanted.  Like excal.  He was this jack of all trades melee guy.  he still is.  But his abilities fill that idea up better now.

Or saryn being that frame all about spreading poison and disease.  Her identity in that regard was cemented with the rework she got.

I would say the nekros changes were not really a rework and more so of just a polish.

And with ash well.  I wouldn't call it a rework either.  his smoke bomb got a QoL update.  Teleport is now more consistent.  And the blade storm is more flexible and less irritating. I'd say it was a polish.

I try to avoid using words like nerf just because of the negative tag that comes with it.  When in reality nerfs can and usually do mean good.  But yeah.  Despite what you say or DE attempts to do or not do people will always be upset because they liked their current version of said frame.  But I think everyone really just needs to get used to the fact that nothing is set in stone in warframe.  DE has said this several times.  It's why I never get attached to anything.  That's how I was still able to love Valkyr despite them gutting her ult with that energy drain ramp up.

[LSG501]

In my opinion a rework is only worthwhile if it improves the warframe (or weapon/enemy) and that doesn't mean makes it more powerful it makes it a better frame to use.   At the same time you're always going to have two sides to every rework, some will want the old version, some will want the new version.... it's very rare if you're lucky and end up with both sides liking the rework.

Nekros - personally I use 3 (despoil augment) and 4 with the very occasional use of 2...1 can't say I use it but nekros could still do with come changes, I'd prefer 4 to be an energy over time rather than a countdown timed like we have now.   Can still be strong but lets be honest most people use it for farming....

Saryn's changes made her into a synergistic warframe which is a good thing to have as some players like that approach.  Essentially it's still a strong frame, you just have to play it in a different way. 

Ash on the other hand is a nerf, and I'm not just saying it for saying it's sake, I have said more detailed reasons in the main thread but essentially the sheer increase in energy requirements is far too high and to top it off you can waste time marking stuff only for it all to be killed by other 'high level' players before you get to use your 4.  Yes you get your energy back but what's the point of an ultimate if it's never able to be used because you're spending all your time marking stuff...in essence it takes too long to trigger in a fast paced game.

 

The same sentiment falls on reworks of enemies and weapons... the nullifiers still need a rework because their bubble is just too powerful, it doesn't just nullifier powers but it's a 'frost globe' shield as well, which is not nullification....hell they just got another rework where they now come towards you if they get attacked on top of the extra nullification abilities a while back.... while players are still basically restricted to melee or spamming bullets....  The end result of the rework is basically people don't want to play corpus as much....

You've got weapons that could REALLY do with a rework, the simulor for example is a major issue in a lot of people's views because of the way it's used in conjunction with mirage (doesn't even need mirage if I'm honest) and it really does take away the fun for other players when ANY weapon can be spammed and clear a room...

[Anarchye]

20 hours ago, ChuckMaverick said:

DE has limited development resources, any rework that is done should be targeted at frames or weapons that need it most.

(Yes, I'm looking at you, totally unnecessary Nova rework thread.)

I dont know, DE has the backup of their chinese investors, and well, placing an advertisement right after kojimas game announcement in the VGAs isnt exactly free or cheap.

As for the past few reworks they have indeed been pretty bad and show a lack of attention into what made them good in the first place. Some may have been necessary like the ash rework BUT a change should bring over a replacement that is as effective (or offer an at least somewhat effective change, like saryn although this one was demoted from a straight offensive frame to a support viral role), albeit requiring some more elaborate method to pull off the original damage it would still have the same results. This wasnt the case for Ash which now deals a miserable performance on bladestorm. (I wont go on the specifics of every single warframe like mag or nekros which also were reworked but they got struck on a similar matter).

A good example of a rework well done at least was Mesa, sure she still stands still and now relies on pointing at enemies but at least she can deliver really high DPS, it is important to note however that it took DE several months to realize that the original rework was bad until they decided to add secondary weapon mod scaling (something that could've been done for ash, wouldn't it be good if BS could deliver gas procs? or radiation, corrosive etc, to wither down enemies?).

I just conclude with that DE needs to sit down and think things through for a little bit longer and deliver a definitive rework that is good, people *do* use the simulacrum and do have a view on how rushed some of these reworks are. Im sure nobody would be up in arms screaming nerf if these things were done right from the beginning.

[(PSN)Tactless_Ninja]

5 hours ago, Thebel said:

Nekros was the worst rework in my opinion because all the did was appease the loot farmers, they made Desecrate more useable but in return they nerfed the hell out of Shadow builds. They basically sold out to the meta farmers for Nekros.

Old shadows you were forced to wait until they died. Everything was QOL except for reducing the number of shadows, but enemies that spawn more enemies are technically more shadows. I've seen up to 12 summoned at once despite the 7 cap. 

And can we stop this DE needs to have a civil sit-down bull****? There's many different opinions on how the game should be modified, and most revolve around asinine ideas that really should be discarded the moment they're conceived. And they responded so quickly to the vacuum changes because of massive backlash. That whole fiasco should really be forgotten when it comes to saying the devs listen.

[Thebel]

8 minutes ago, (PS4)Tactless_Ninja said:

Old shadows you were forced to wait until they died. Everything was QOL except for reducing the number of shadows, but enemies that spawn more enemies are technically more shadows. I've seen up to 12 summoned at once despite the 7 cap. 

And can we stop this DE needs to have a civil sit-down bull****? There's many different opinions on how the game should be modified, and most revolve around asinine ideas that really should be discarded the moment they're conceived. And they responded so quickly to the vacuum changes because of massive backlash. That whole fiasco should really be forgotten when it comes to saying the devs listen.

Old shadows you had to wait for the time to run out you mean, because they NEVER died, now they do.

Now they pick the heavy units for you to spawn, too bad anyone that played shadow build knows that's a nerf.

Now you have less shadows and they weren't even buffed as compensation.

Now you need to build enough power strength to make the shadow augment as good as it was before. To add to that because there are less shadows they each take even more damage with the augment, meaning you have to heal them even more often now.

The only good thing they did with shadows was letting you recast to heal them, because you need to do it so often or else they just die now.

 

[ChuckMaverick]

5 minutes ago, Thebel said:

Now they pick the heavy units for you to spawn, too bad anyone that played shadow build knows that's a nerf.

I didn't play Nekros before the changes, can you explain why that's a nerf?