My Biggest Issue with Warframe is MR.

[(XBOX)TakenStudent362]

for background, I'm MR 17 on this account, and 21 on my other account.   And I'm not particularly motivated to chase MR, but I think some additional MR points could be a good thing.

I think some minimal MR given when forma-ing a weapon would lead people to really try new weapons not just discard them when they hit 30.  For example I was wholly underwhelmed by the performance of the amprex, the sonicor, the soma, the s.simulor etc until i put 4-5 forma's on them.  But the ONLY reason I even bothered was from talking to others and them telling me how good they could be.  If I got MR for applying formas (even if 1/8 the original value or something) i would be inclined to forma every weapon multiple times to see how good I could get it.  And would probably be buying forma bundles more often as a result.  And would be playing with a far greater variety of weapons.  But at the moment the only thing that motivates me to try new secondaries for example is that I'm bored with the sonicor - even though it devastates up to level 80 enemies enough that I generally don't even need a primary.

Some fractional MR reward for forma would be good for the game and get more people using a greater variety of weapons rather than the same old same old.  And to know if it was actually working, people would actually use the weapons rather than level them and discard them- they might even become masters at using them.  And I would love to see mirage running around with something other than the simulor, and to hear some secondaries other than the pew pew of the sonicor.

The way the MR works now, getting shared affinity or just affinity from your primary carried over to your secondary or whatever, is the root of people not actually trying to make the most of the huge arsenal.  There is no need to every unholster those twin vipers when you can rank them up without touching them. 

If it was 1/8 the original MR, the most you could get would be 2x experience  if you forma'd every slot (assuming no MR for re-polarizing a previously forma'd slot) and realistically people would stop at 3-5 formas - perhaps not even that for truly garbage weapons.  And if it need be even more restrictive, 1/8 orginal MR and only granted from actual use of the forma'd weapon rather than any shared affinity.

[(XBOX)Oussii]

1 hour ago, lodoubt said:

Well like, yeah, DE going bankrupt would also be a problem for the game's development cycle. But MR requirements are primarily about spacing content out more effectively, which is both a financial *and* gameplay experience concern.

It's a part of a bigger plan

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

Making you use new stuff is how DE makes money.

[Chewarette]

7 hours ago, egregiousRac said:

To be fair, you can access the quest without switching weapons or frame. You have 13k exp left on the solar map. That leaves only 2k left to get, while a single sentinel will net you 6k plus 3k for its weapon. That would still show 100% for everything you have used. Same with Archwing. 6k each for the wing, 3k for the primary and melee.

I think one junction (Pluto or Sedna I think) requires you to kill Vay Hek, that is MR5.

I agree with the OP that even if the MR requirement has to be kept for nearly everything (syndicate cap, some weapons, ...), it should not be a prerequisite for quests or bosses.

Completionists won't see any problem with the MR limit as they (we :P) will anyway level weapons we don't care about. But it's clear that not everyone will see a point in leveling a weapon they perfectly know they won't play with.

[Trittium00]

3 hours ago, LuckyCharm said:

Well I could easily hope for MR, since DE keep tying things to it.

I do see what you're saying, that you would like to get extra mastery points for relevelling gear after putting a forma on it.

But think about if that would possible, it would entirely break the mastery system as you could in theory keep levelling the same weapon over and over again, getting an endless amount of mastery. Mastery level thresholds would all need to be readjusted to take into account people getting more mastery points from putting forma on everything that exists in the game.

That would simply never happen for this very good reason. The way the system exists now is to encourage the player to build all the different things the game has to offer, and I'm sorry to tell you that's never going to change.

Edited November 30, 2016 by Trittium00

[Naqel]

MR was a broken system since it was introduced. Now that there's gameplay tied to it, it only got worse.

Like many things in warframe, it's a system that needs to be reworked or abolished, and unlike most of the other junk, it actually isn't tied to monetization(yet), so there isn't anything stopping DE from removing it(yet).

[bubbabenali]

I don't know man, In ~2 years I've never seen a low MR player how knew what he was talking about.

Wether it was wastly missunderstanding of weapon mechanics or effectiveness of some Warframe builds. The opinions they spread in the chat where always good for some laughs.

[str4dlin]

8 hours ago, lodoubt said:

Mastery rank is your overall prowess. Sure, you can specialise and specialise in your Latron, but that doesn't give you any more transferable aptitude in understanding how to use a Quanta or whatever.

As it stands, MR is simply the hard mechanical incentive to generalise and experience many different types of equipment. Otherwise, there wouldn't be one, since you can't swap your loadout mid-mission, you don't actually gain much mechanical versatility from doing so.

If you want to pick a weird hill and then go die on it, it isn't really DE's job to give you a gold star for that.

And leveling up trash for having more MR gives you the aptitude to do Draco, Draco, Draco and more Draco or wherever people are leveling up now. MR says nothing. Abtolutely nothing more than you have been leveling up. I can pick an Ember and level up all my gear. What I ve learn about the weapon? Nothing.

Conclave should return. That number years ago that was showing a value in relation with the power, formas, mods, of your current gear. 

Level up a forma have the cost of one forma. Level up a weapon have the cost of one forma only to have the spot in your inventory. Ask your own why MR is working as it is working nowadays.

MR says NOTHING.

 

EDIT: And I give you an example. A friend who has half of the time I have played and she have 1 level more than me of MR because I have not play for some months and I don't take care of my MR while she is freaking "leveler". I play since 2012-2013 she plays since past year. She is VERY good player but am I worst than him? 

More examples. I have level-up my excalibur not long time ago. I know how excalibur works since first beta. I didnt play it because a friend was using it always. I could give a perfect explanation of any excalibur skill also when I had no excalibur on my inventory. Someone who has use it for 30 mins to level up until 30 and then never more used knows more than me? following your reasoning.

Last edit: And for being clear. Im not a low MR crying. I play since 2012-2013 as I said and I got MR 22 when I ve never take care of MR. But I disagree tottally with how MR is working and "new Tennos" just having that number in mind watching nothing more than it.

(sorry my english)

Regards.

Edited November 30, 2016 by str4dlin

[lodoubt]

4 hours ago, (XB1)TakenStudent362 said:

...minimal MR given when forma-ing a weapon...

Honestly, someone who has proven that they can do Xini / Akkad / Berehynia / Hieracon (IE the new Dracos) effectively is dramatically more likely to have reasonable insight into the game's fundamental mechanics than someone like say, my friend who is MR6 with a 3 forma Trin, 4 forma Kestrel, and a 5 forma Ogris. Like, it's neat that he has his own thing going on (which is not even true of most cases of excessive forma since they tend to be for the same weapons on everyone), and the things that he does with those weapons are ridiculous and counter to the expectations of your average player, but he doesn't know S#&$ about the current meta, or how frames and weapons outside of his own specialisations operate. Which in turn makes him bad at being Trinity despite having a better mod capacity as her.

A high MR player has, in the absolute worst case, at least demonstrated that they were able to gather the ingredients for that many different weapons.

[_Vortus_]

Curious where OP stands on his scans, quite a bit of affinity there and doesn't need other gear.  Which would likely put him over MR5 as well.   However, saying you understand the gear by reading articles and watching video's on it isn't the same as experiencing it.    For those that run through the gear without playing it, their call, they play how they want to.   I did that as well.   I have however bought back most of those weapons I skipped over and working through them actually playing them.   Some I have not liked, some I have liked, but the decision on it was mine, not because others said so or it looked bad on paper.  Also running frames I didn't spend much time with and learning them.  Just reading about them and watching videos doesn't mean you can play them to the full potential, even maybe learning other things they can do others do not use them for. .  

Just because I read about and watch racing doesn't make me a driver.  Taking a car on the track made me a driver.   However, taking a car on the track did not make me a good driver.   That is for those that take the time and effort and gain the experience on the track.   Same applies to most things from gaming, to fishing, to cooking.   Experience matters.

[Tsukinoki]

1 hour ago, str4dlin said:

And leveling up trash for having more MR gives you the aptitude to do Draco, Draco, Draco and more Draco or wherever people are leveling up now. MR says nothing. Abtolutely nothing more than you have been leveling up. I can pick an Ember and level up all my gear. What I ve learn about the weapon? Nothing.

Conclave should return. That number years ago that was showing a value in relation with the power, formas, mods, of your current gear. 

Level up a forma have the cost of one forma. Level up a weapon have the cost of one forma only to have the spot in your inventory. Ask your own why MR is working as it is working nowadays.

MR says NOTHING.

 

EDIT: And I give you an example. A friend who has half of the time I have played and she have 1 level more than me of MR because I have not play for some months and I don't take care of my MR while she is freaking "leveler". I play since 2012-2013 he plays since past year. She is VERY good player but am I worst than him? 

More examples. I have level-up my excalibur not long time ago. I know how excalibur works since first beta. I didnt play it because a friend was using it always. I could give a perfect explanation of any excalibur skill also when I had no excalibur on my inventory. Someone who has use it for 30 mins to level up until 30 and then never more used knows more than me? following your reasoning.

Last edit: And for being clear. Im not a low MR crying. I play since 2012-2013 as I said and I got MR 22 when I ve never take care of MR. But I disagree tottally with how MR is working and "new Tennos" just having that number in mind watching nothing more than it.

(sorry my english)

Regards.

Just had to reply to this, especially you're bolded part.
The conclave rating was utter trash compared to MR.

I can make a high conclave rating build for Zephyr that wont even last 20 minutes in medium level survivals.
Aura: Physique (CR20); Steel Fiber (CR40); Redirection (CR40); Transient Fortitude (CR20); Undying Will (CR20); Flow (CR20);  Armored Agility (CR20); Fortitude (CR20); Overextended (CR20); Speed Drift (CR10)
That would be a total CR of 290 for that build on Zephyr (which has a base CR of 60).

Now lets make a far more sensible build (and mind you this isn't even perfectly optomized but would still easily last 40+ minutes solo in high level survivals):
Aura: Energy Siphon (CR1); Narrow Minded (CR20); Primed Continutiy (CR20); Stretch (CR10); Fleeting Expertise (CR20); Vitality (CR10); Constitution (CR20); Overextended (CR20); Streamline (CR20); Cunning Drift (CR3).
That would be a total CR of 204 for that build on Zephyr.

And yet the only thing you would see would be the conclave rating of either 290 or 204...and which would look better from that perspective?

The simple fact is that the conclave rating is utterly useless, pointless, and entirely misleading with absolutely no upside to it at all.

And that's just some of the warframe mods.
I mean looking at Rifle mods and its even worse.  Ammo Drum is CR5, meanwhile Bladed Rounds is CR1, Twitch (increases holster speed) is CR10, meanwhile Argon Scope is CR1.
And out of those four mods which ones are the more useful ones?  Which ones will make your conclave rating on your guns look better?
Because those have opposite answers and should be all the proof you need that conclave rating is utter garbage.

I mean, a build nearly 100 CR lower is many, many times more effective.
But with that number being visible all anyone ever cared about was how high it was, even when having such high numbers were pointless, or as that example shows even detrimental.
I definitely don't miss the "Hosting mission X, Require 1300+ Conclave Rating!" when it was entirely possible to solo that mission with a total conclave rating of under 1000.

So no, conclave rating did not show how strong your gear was, at all.  It was just  a misleading number that meant nothing.

Edited November 30, 2016 by Tsukinoki

[LuckyCharm]

53 minutes ago, lodoubt said:

Honestly, someone who has proven that they can do Xini / Akkad / Berehynia / Hieracon (IE the new Dracos) effectively is dramatically more likely to have reasonable insight into the game's fundamental mechanics than someone like say, my friend who is MR6 with a 3 forma Trin, 4 forma Kestrel, and a 5 forma Ogris. Like, it's neat that he has his own thing going on (which is not even true of most cases of excessive forma since they tend to be for the same weapons on everyone), and the things that he does with those weapons are ridiculous and counter to the expectations of your average player, but he doesn't know S#&$ about the current meta, or how frames and weapons outside of his own specialisations operate. Which in turn makes him bad at being Trinity despite having a better mod capacity as her.

A high MR player has, in the absolute worst case, at least demonstrated that they were able to gather the ingredients for that many different weapons.

Then perhaps we should be tying things to starchart completion rather than weapon and frame levels. Since as you say, your friend with MR6 with a 4 forma kestrel and a 5 forma ogris while mastery rank wise he may be low, but his weapon power would be off the charts compared to someone running base kestrel and ogris who only leveled them for MR sake. 

At least if I see someone had completed x amount of the starchart, or done raids or something, I'd me more likely to trust their competancy than an MR 22 who's completed draco (or now akkad) 1000 times and would say that person has more "mastery" of their weapons than someone who's only sat in 1-2 maps. And when everything in the star chart was completed.. well at least then everyone will be on the same level, rather than this bias against founders who have more mastery thanks to exclusivity

[str4dlin]

12 minutes ago, Tsukinoki said:

Just had to reply to this, especially you're bolded part.
The conclave rating was utter trash compared to MR.

I can make a high conclave rating build for Zephyr that wont even last 20 minutes in medium level survivals.
Aura: Physique (CR20); Steel Fiber (CR40); Redirection (CR40); Transient Fortitude (CR20); Undying Will (CR20); Flow (CR20);  Armored Agility (CR20); Fortitude (CR20); Overextended (CR20); Speed Drift (CR10)
That would be a total CR of 290 for that build on Zephyr (which has a base CR of 60).

Now lets make a far more sensible build (and mind you this isn't even perfectly optomized but would still easily last 40+ minutes solo in high level survivals):
Aura: Energy Siphon (CR1); Narrow Minded (CR20); Primed Continutiy (CR20); Stretch (CR10); Fleeting Expertise (CR20); Vitality (CR10); Constitution (CR20); Overextended (CR20); Streamline (CR20); Cunning Drift (CR3).
That would be a total CR of 204 for that build on Zephyr.

And yet the only thing you would see would be the conclave rating of either 290 or 204...and which would look better from that perspective?

The simple fact is that the conclave rating is utterly useless, pointless, and entirely misleading with absolutely no upside to it at all.

I mean, a build nearly 100 CR lower is many, many times more effective.
But with that number being visible all anyone ever cared about was how high it was, even when having such high numbers were pointless, or as that example shows even detrimental.
I definitely don't miss the "Hosting mission X, Require 1300+ Conclave Rating!" when it was entirely possible to solo that mission with a total conclave rating of under 1000.

So no, conclave rating did not show how strong your gear was, at all.  It was just  a misleading number that meant nothing.

True too. Im rather not used to rate people because a number.So MR useless and CR useless.

[Tsukinoki]

4 minutes ago, LuckyCharm said:

And when everything in the star chart was completed.. well at least then everyone will be on the same level, rather than this bias against founders who have more mastery thanks to exclusivity

Sorry but you're blowing this "bias" way out of proportion.

The founder exclusive mastery is 12,000.
You want to know the total "exclusive" mastery?  165,000.
Founder gear only contributes 7.27% of the exclusive mastery, the baro gear and prime vaults are about 10 times more exclusive mastery than the founders gear....

And the total mastery available in game if you have literally everything is 1,347,378.
Founders gear isn't even one percent of that, and its percentage shrinks every time more gear is added into the game.

The so called "bias" that you bring up is so small as to be utterly meaningless.

If you have everything else except the founders gear you're going to be the same rank as them, MR23.  Its all the other exclusive gear that will keep you from that rank, not the founders stuff.

[(PSN)Darth-Escar]

10 hours ago, lodoubt said:

Oberon is still an awful warframe ;C but he is incredibly fun to use, I use him whenever I can. Stuff you couldn't learn from the stats. Stuff like having sympathy for the plight of the team's Nekros is another thing you have to have played to understand.

What about Nekros? I've tested him against enemies too strong to spawn in the simulacrum, so anything about him supposedly being weak will be ignored. I know all I need to.

[LuckyCharm]

1 hour ago, Tsukinoki said:

Sorry but you're blowing this "bias" way out of proportion.

The founder exclusive mastery is 12,000.
You want to know the total "exclusive" mastery?  165,000.
Founder gear only contributes 7.27% of the exclusive mastery, the baro gear and prime vaults are about 10 times more exclusive mastery than the founders gear....

And the total mastery available in game if you have literally everything is 1,347,378.
Founders gear isn't even one percent of that, and its percentage shrinks every time more gear is added into the game.

The so called "bias" that you bring up is so small as to be utterly meaningless.

If you have everything else except the founders gear you're going to be the same rank as them, MR23.  Its all the other exclusive gear that will keep you from that rank, not the founders stuff.

I personally dont care about mr. I just see plenty of "excalibur prime? release this for mr" posts in most topics talking about mr on the forums. I dont even think id use any of  the founder gear other than mr. I only said there was bias because when the mr cap gets close to the next rank, those few mastery points can tip those few founders over. Not that it matters in a pve game.

But what id like is a system that when everything is done (like completing the starchart) everyone has equal oppertunity (unlike the exclusive weapons you mentioned) but hey, without constantly rising mr what else is there to grind for right now?

[bubbabenali]

3 hours ago, lodoubt said:

Hieracon (IE the new Dracos)

No, Hieracon and Akkad are the new Hieracon and Akkad - they were allways two of the best missions for getting Endo (Cores), Relics (Keys) and xp (well in Akkads case only XP).

Lazyass passive leveler just prefered Draco because it was an even easier way to farm Mastery points.

[lodoubt]

The distinction isn't massively relevant here provided Draco itself stays the old Draco. I'll admit I overstepped including Hieracon though, while the culture of Hieracon runs is very similar, the actual output from the runs isn't all that much affinity comparatively.

[JustSneaky]

I love how everyone who defend current MR system are high MR players, who sited on draco and scratch their asses. After 10 minutes, mastery fodder was done. Scrap, next one, Draco, scratch asses, sometimes push button number 4. Continue until appropriate MR rank achieved. Now you have to actually play to level up weapons and this is, what most of "pro MR" fans don't get it, because they don't have to anymore. They have everything unlocked, by afking on Draco. Also not counting huge nerf to affinity gain and free xp boosters on weekends. Now we don't have any of this and also " xp leaking system" which prevent completely someone to lvl mastery fodder solo.

Edited November 30, 2016 by JustSneaky

[Coaa]

I personally feel that stuff needs to be locked behind MR - MORE then it is now. Most players < MR 5 still don't even have a basic grasp of the game. You can get to pretty close to MR 5 off of just clearing the star chart and working on solar rails now. I doesn't take too long to get up to 5 and at that point you should have some ok weapons that'll help with the quests.

Some of those quests were pretty tough, throwing a new player in the mix that hardly knows how to move, has a handful of weapons and doesn't have any mods maxed or even decent ones to boot is probably not a good idea.

Even sorties should be raised imo. The amount of low MR players that get brutalized every day in those is crazy. These guys typically end up needing constant rezzing and hinder the team. I'm not saying all players that are low MR don't understand the game, but it still gives a decent gauge of how long someone has played and understands the concepts.

[Coaa]

2 hours ago, JustSneaky said:

I love how everyone who defend current MR system are high MR players, who sited on draco and scratch their asses. After 10 minutes, mastery fodder was done. Scrap, next one, Draco, scratch asses, sometimes push button number 4. Continue until appropriate MR rank achieved. Now you have to actually play to level up weapons and this is, what most of "pro MR" fans don't get it, because they don't have to anymore. They have everything unlocked, by afking on Draco. Also not counting huge nerf to affinity gain and free xp boosters on weekends. Now we don't have any of this and also " xp leaking system" which prevent completely someone to lvl mastery fodder solo.

Generalize much? Yeah everyone just lived in draco and got MR 20+ overnight right? How about the millions of resources, blueprints, parts to farm, nitan alerts locked behind gates, credits, ducats, keys (now relics) etc etc. I could go on but you have no idea what you are talking about.

FYI there are still 2-3 nodes that are just as effective as Draco was. I can still forma a weapon and max it out in about the same amount of time.

The only system that has been hindered to take a lot longer (still a few quick methods) is focus.

Edited November 30, 2016 by Coaa

[Salenstormwing]

Uh, yeah. I'm not really getting the issue/problem/whatever with the MR system.

Let's say you have a nice, favorite combo of Warframe/Primary/Secondary/Melee/Sentinel. That's fine. Nothing stops you from using it. DE even made it easy to "earn stuff" with the Focus system so you could put lenses on things you want to gain Focus points from. So yeah, got a fav combo. Groovy.

Now... DE lets you gain points as well for going through and doing the Solar Map. More choices.

And then there's all the free stuff you're more or less handed just by playing the game. Complete a Junction, have a quest, some money, and a weapon blueprint. Complete a quest, have a new and totally free weapon for free. Complete this other quest and get a totally free pet to level up and use. Beat up Phorid 3 times and build yourself your own Nyx. Have it be the anniversary of Warframe, get handed a whole bunch of free weapons and slots.

The game is going out of its way to give you stuff to use and try out... and you have a problem with it because you like what you got and don't want to use anything else.

 

....I don't think the MR system is the problem here. It might be a bit clunky at times, but this seems like just a case of being overly stubborn to the point of making a problem out of a non-issue.

Have you ever messed around with setting up different loadouts? You get loadout slots for free. It makes setting up and changing what you're using quite easy. Set up your favorite, set up some alternatives, click a button and pick whatever.

But that's just how it looks from my perspective.

[JustSneaky]

1 hour ago, Coaa said:

Generalize much? Yeah everyone just lived in draco and got MR 20+ overnight right? How about the millions of resources, blueprints, parts to farm, nitan alerts locked behind gates, credits, ducats, keys (now relics) etc etc. I could go on but you have no idea what you are talking about.

FYI there are still 2-3 nodes that are just as effective as Draco was. I can still forma a weapon and max it out in about the same amount of time.

The only system that has been hindered to take a lot longer (still a few quick methods) is focus.

Nitan, ducats, alerts, keys? What are you talking about. Those were not a thing when draco was "the draco". You just build thing through BP with basic resources (rubedo, alloy etc), (no key needed) and go farm draco for 10 minute, to get equipment on lvl 30. Then scrap it and do same thing agian.  And of course i didn't meant everyone, but i didn't know how form that sentence properly. Still my standpoint stand. Before, it was much easier to farm afinity, than now. This is why every argument against MR system is well-founded. 

 

And no there is nothing like draco.

Edited November 30, 2016 by JustSneaky

[Azifel]

35 minutes ago, Salenstormwing said:

....I don't think the MR system is the problem here. It might be a bit clunky at times, but this seems like just a case of being overly stubborn to the point of making a problem out of a non-issue.

This right here.

 

It's not the game that is gating you off content, it's your own personal preference to not use other items.

[Coaa]

Just now, JustSneaky said:

Nitan, ducats, alerts, keys? What are you talking about. Those were not a thing when draco was "the draco". You just build thing through BP with basic resources (rubedo, alloy etc), (no key needed) and go farm draco for 10 minute, to get equipment on lvl 30. Then scrap it and do same thing agian.  And of course i didn't meant everyone, but i didn't know how form that sentence properly. Still my standpoint stand. Before, it was much easier to farm afinity, then now. This is why every argument against MR system is well-founded. 

I'm talking about the game doesn't just HAND you weapons to level. It still takes 100s if not 1000s of hours to farm everything for the items to level.

You don't just sit in 1 map and raise your MR to max.