Should all AoE abilities get the Blade Storm Treatment?

[AlphaHorseman]

7 minutes ago, Surly4Panda said:

Whole this topic certainly went on for a while. The changes proposed by the OP sounds too heavy-handed to work. The reason this change is viable for Ash is because Ash is fairly durable and he also can go invisible and get energy discount for BS when he mark while invisible. So basically the change is okay in consideration to rest of Ash's kit. Frost and Rhino may be able to take his change since Frost can safely mark inside his bubble and Rhino can do it while Ironskinned. For frames like Nyx and Nova, this change will pretty much neuter the frames in sorties. Those frames will not survive long enough to mark anything at high levels which means that DE need to give them some defensive ability to allow them to do it while marking which in term makes every frame more similar to each others. So yeah, what's good for the goose is not necessary good for the gander in this situation.

Oh I realize that an argument can be made that just have the fragile frames go in as a group with other frames that can protect them. But there are solo players out there and random is usually how people get into groups so you can never plan for what frame you got so that's not a viable strategy either.

Dude you rock, like, so hard.

[Helljack84]

And after butchering every single dps, people realized that everyone running tanks/bruisers in low lvl still doesn't bring challenge to the game.

[Shockwave-]

On 12/1/2016 at 1:32 PM, -CM-AbsoluteZero said:

Keep it up DE you are doing God's work.

Don't listen to the whiners.

I agree. Please don't listen to this whiner. Nerfing the good and godly abilities of WF will make WF a tactical shooter. Guns will be all that is used. The powerful warframes are there to be used. The energy economy needs to be reworked, not any frame. Not a single frame is OP if the Energy economy was good. Ash's old bladestorm was even perfectly fine if you could ot once per minute instead of constantly. Knowing when to use the tatical nuke that kills everything in the room (misama, bladstorm, etc) is what should be skill based, not actually using the skill.

FIx the energy economy and all the nerfs to frames don't have to happen.

 

[Gurpgork]

9 hours ago, Shockwave- said:

Nerfing the good and godly abilities of WF will make WF a tactical shooter. Guns will be all that is used.

That's not necessarily true. Nerfing the godly abilities to the point where they're reasonable won't make them obsolete. Powers and guns both need to be relevant, but powers need to be relevant to somewhat of a lesser degree.

With that being said, however, Warframe could definitely stand to be more tactical than it is, since we can all but win a mission in the loadout screen in the present state of the game. 

9 hours ago, Shockwave- said:

The energy economy needs to be reworked, not any frame.

I think a bit of both needs to happen, reason being that some of the strongest meta 'frames, most notably Loki and Nova, are extremely dependent on their ultimates. Reworking the energy economy to give RD and MP the downtime required to make them balanced would make Loki and especially Nova very feast-or-famine type Warframes. Nova pretty much completely depends on a really high uptime on Molecular Prime, since she's really squishy, Null Star sucks, Wormhole isn't much better, and AMD is really hard to use safely without MP. So while I agree that the energy economy needs a rework, some Warframes would also need the power of their abilities redistributed so that they could function in the new energy system. 

[(PSN)WINDMILEYNO]

On 11/30/2016 at 11:09 AM, CTanGod said:

First off how is the Ash rework a success when the majority of players say it's crap?

Second of all this is Warframe, a fast paced horde shooter where the tactical decisions you'd make in other games are worthless because of the sheer amount of enemies. Your suggested change would force DE to rebalance EVERYTHING and that would take too much time and resources. In the current state of the game such a change as you propose would kill the game. Bladestorm is not good right now you can easily waste energy by marking enemies that would already die from 1 BS hit without refund, marking leaves you super vulnerable and it's pointless when you could just shoot them instead.

In short this is a terrible idea and I suggest the mods immediately archive and bury this thread before more people start asking this because it would simply kill the game.

If you don't believe me then imagine doing a lvl 100 sortie defence without AOE CC and damage, just imagine that.

It would force DE to fix their game, instead of just puttimg Aoe CC in every frames kit as an excuse to not have to put any work into fixing the enemies

[THegolo123]

On 11/30/2016 at 11:57 AM, -CM-AbsoluteZero said:

I don't see any issues with it. If it worked for Ash why can't it work for everyone else?

We have Frames like Rhino, Frost, Vauban that can freeze an entire room at a press of a button, Nova that can slow an entire room and provide a 2x dmg mulitplier, Nyx who can force an entire room of enemies to turn against each other at a simple push of a button, or Ember that can just toggle 4 and run around for kills.

A lot of these powers are just as strong as old Blade storm.

I also think adding this to all abilities will give a more interactive and tactical feeling.

If you had to mark targets before using Bastille, it would give a more precise control to the ability so you can choose who gets cc'd

I think this system would work great on Nekros Desecrate as well.

Choosing who gets desecrated instead of mindlessly press 3 and forget would promote smarter decision making. 

Trinity could benefit from this as well with her blessing.

Sometimes you don't need the entire team healed, but just that one guy, being able to manually target who to use blessing on would be a massive QoL buff 

I think that the success of the Ash rework should be an eye opener for DE to take a look at the other Warframe abilities to apply this buff to in order to make the game much more engaging for the player and to get them to think fast in a moments notice.

 

I can see many benefits for this:

• More engaging
• Promotes good accuracy and critical thinking 
• More fine tuned control (No more accidentally killing enemies or cc'ing them) 
• More energy efficient (A lot of times you don't need to have that one specific enemy killed or cc'd so you end up wasting energy) 

 

What do you guys think? Too much of a buff?

Stop acting like a b word on ash bladestorm. Ash is good as he stands 

[Pro3Display]

8 hours ago, (PS4)WINDMILEYNO said:

It would force DE to fix their game, instead of just puttimg Aoe CC in every frames kit as an excuse to not have to put any work into fixing the enemies

pretty much this, they flood us with bandaids so they won't have to fix game properly

problem is that they waste so much effort on the bandaids game could've already been fixed

Edited December 3, 2016 by Pro3Display

[(XBOX)Angryspy101]

1 hour ago, THegolo123 said:

Stop acting like a b word on ash bladestorm. Ash is good as he stands 

What? How is he acting like a "B" word towards the ash rework when he thinks it's a good change?

[THegolo123]

4 hours ago, (XB1)CFE Angry said:

What? How is he acting like a "B" word towards the ash rework when he thinks it's a good change?

He stated the marking problem as bs

[Mecchi]

2 hours ago, THegolo123 said:

He stated the marking problem as bs

Because the marking problem is bullscheisse, it literally made Ash's 4 obsolete because it takes too long for it be started and then too long for it to mark and to be killing.

They also completely removed any synergy with Nekros with this dumb rework with Ash now. Like there were plenty of concepts like Ash activates it and it acts like say, Ember's ult, his clones go around killing things while he moves and shoots stuff, make the energy drain 17.5/s or something like that to balance it out to make it so it's only used to clear out rooms of high tier enemies.

[Love2Camp]

"If it worked for Ash..".. But it didn't D:

Also, I like 1 button aoe powers. It's almost the only ones I bother using. The rest are often too situational, or not as usefull as just shooting with your gun. And if everything is easier by shooting, what's the point of abilities? :<

[JalakBali]

On 12/1/2016 at 0:57 AM, -CM-AbsoluteZero said:

I don't see any issues with it. If it worked for Ash why can't it work for everyone else?

We have Frames like Rhino, Frost, Vauban that can freeze an entire room at a press of a button, Nova that can slow an entire room and provide a 2x dmg mulitplier, Nyx who can force an entire room of enemies to turn against each other at a simple push of a button, or Ember that can just toggle 4 and run around for kills.

A lot of these powers are just as strong as old Blade storm.

No, they're not. None of them became invulnerable when the powers got activated. Ember's WoF is single target and low damage and useless over level 30 while she could still get shot. Frost's AoE is not large and takes long to cast, leaving him stuck in animation while getting shot at. Rhino's AoE barely does damage, you have to manually shoot the enemies one by one, same with Nova's MP. Nyx's Chaos doesn't guarantee the enemies to not shoot at you.

 

While old Bladestorm: you pressed a button and for 20 seconds or so you cannot be hit by anything while you could pick up loot with Vacuum while doing one of the highest damage abilities in the game. You can also get healed and regen shield and energy while doing this. The only problematic thing about this power is how goddamn boring it is.

[Vardog]

I sense butthurt.

[WolfgangDer2]

Why does everyone want everything nerfed? Do you guys enjoy killing enemies one by one? This is GRINDFRAME. We don't call it that because it sounds edgy, but because you have to kill a massive horde of enemies each day to progress. That's just the way it is. Go do a survival / excavation / defense / etc, get to enemy level 250-350 and come post your tactics and how you critically & carefully thought and planned each enemy, without using rhino, frost, vauban or hmm well pretty much any 4th ability. You'll be dead before you can spell nerf. Most of those who cry nerf on forums live under the impression that level 50-100 is end game. No, no it's not.

[Buzkyl]

Just now, B_O_G_D_A_N said:

 Most of those who cry nerf on forums live under the impression that level 50-100 is end game. No, no it's not.

Except it is.

Sortie enemies go to level 100, 120 if at the very end of a survival or defense. Raids end at level 100.Newly introduced Kuva flood mission are level 80-100. level 250-350 is ridiculous as you're catering to content that never ends, that's why it's call endless missions. You're free to try to got hat far but DE content is says otherwise.

[Soketsu]

2 hours ago, Buzkyl said:

Except it is.

Sortie enemies go to level 100, 120 if at the very end of a survival or defense. Raids end at level 100.Newly introduced Kuva flood mission are level 80-100. level 250-350 is ridiculous as you're catering to content that never ends, that's why it's call endless missions. You're free to try to got hat far but DE content is says otherwise.

Cause many people will come here when something is impossible for them, I still remember the number of post when Razorbark was a tactic alert and many people don't figure out to kill it. Since DE prefer that the majority of tenno got access to the same stuff they let it their higtest challenge to this level but some people are way above this kind of challenge, and well some other tenno not.

other proof of that is some post you might see when people complain that some daily sortie are impossible, even if it's reseted daily they stilll complain to not succeed to defeat a lvl 100 mission so imagine if we put higher level like effective veteran tenno level.

Edited December 5, 2016 by Soketsu

[doomagent13]

Whether or not old Bladestorm meets the definition of AoE, it was nothing like any of the other true AoE abilities.  It auto-targeted every enemy in a certain area, and then SEQUENTIALLY killed them one by one.  More or less EVERY other AoE ability SIMULTANEOUSLY affects every enemy within a certain area.  Furthermore, they have some effect beyond pure damage -- CC and/or debuff to be specific. (Miasma has a short stun.)  Bladestorm did not, and still does not, have any real CC aspect. (Stunning an enemy for the few seconds it takes to kill them is not CC.)  To put it bluntly, Bladestorm was, and mostly still is, a no-risk auto-kill against almost anything, and nothing more.  Aside from possibly getting ragdolled enemies stuck in awkward locations, no other abilities are anywhere near as reliable at killing high level enemies.  Every other ability that can be reasonably certain to kill at high levels involves using the enemies' damage or health against them, and only Maim comes close to not having some CC aspect.

Requiring targeting for truly AoE abilities, beyond specifying the center/origin, makes absolutely no sense.  Unless there are obstructions, an explosion cannot arbitrarily hit only some targets within its blast radius. (Shaped charges just make an explosion be distinctly non-spherical.)

As far as the power of the various CC abilities, they generally balance potency and duration.  Stomp and Avalanche completely stop enemies, but do not last that long.  Bastille completely stops enemies and lasts longer, but can only affect a limited number of enemies.  Molecular Prime makes enemies take double damage and can last fairly long, but only slows down enemies.  Chaos can last fairly long, but only makes enemies fight each other.  Bladestorm (eventually) outright killed enemies, without any real risk or effort. (It made W+M1 seem quite skillful.)  DE mildly increases the effort required for Bladestorm, and you want abilities that already involve some risk, and require moderate effort to take advantage of, to take even more effort?  You MIGHT be able to present a vaguely reasonable argument if Bladestorm did not make Ash and his targets invulnerable, although its risk and effort requirements would still be much lower than other abilities. (Compare the survivability of a Kavat to that of a Kubrow.)

Bladestorm has LONG been an anomaly in the relative balance of powerful abilities.  It is slightly less so now, but is still very much low-risk, high-reward for minimal effort.

Do keep in mind that some people primarily only use the powerful CC abilities when really necessary, such as to revive a teammate.  Or would you rather they let you die because there isn't enough time to target all the nearby enemies?

[(XBOX)DeluxeKnight831]

The way i see it you just want no CC abilities in a game centered around CC and damage no ?

[Gurpgork]

15 hours ago, B_O_G_D_A_N said:

Why does everyone want everything nerfed? Do you guys enjoy killing enemies one by one? This is GRINDFRAME. We don't call it that because it sounds edgy, but because you have to kill a massive horde of enemies each day to progress. That's just the way it is. Go do a survival / excavation / defense / etc, get to enemy level 250-350 and come post your tactics and how you critically & carefully thought and planned each enemy, without using rhino, frost, vauban or hmm well pretty much any 4th ability. You'll be dead before you can spell nerf. Most of those who cry nerf on forums live under the impression that level 50-100 is end game. No, no it's not.

Considering that there is basically no reason at all to go above sortie level, and that, as a result, less than 10% of the playerbase ever will, it's completely unreasonable to consider level 200-300 enemies as endgame. Heck, level 100 enemies as they are push the boundaries of what should be reasonable for us to accomplish, because gameplay really starts to break down at those levels  

Also, your post highlights the two biggest problems with Warframe's gameplay: Players are overpowered to the point where any and all tactical thought doesn't matter, and enemies are overpowered to the point where they'd be unbeatable if we couldn't press a single button and all but remove gameplay. 

The "cheese or cheese back" method of creating player vs. enemy relationships is not a sustainable form of gameplay, and both players and enemies need a significant culling. 

[Callback]

And here we have an entire thread of people who don't understand sarcasm.

[Pro3Display]

6 minutes ago, Callback said:

And here we have an entire thread of people who don't understand sarcasm.

troll (if he is) =/= sarcasm

and if he doesn't troll, well......... isn't sarcasm either

Edited December 5, 2016 by Pro3Display

[Callback]

3 minutes ago, Pro3Display said:

troll (if he is) =/= sarcasm

The original post is very clear in its sarcasm.  I didn't read beyond skimming to see WAY too many people taking it literally.

[(PSN)Crixus044]

Making a magical space ninja game ultra tactical. -_- Sounds like a grrrrate idea. How about while we're at it, give archwing aoe abilities the bladestorm treatment so that we can make them useless too, not that they weren't useless already. How about we also make aoe weapons require marking, so that nobody would use them either. Also, you will now have to mark an enemy before shooting it. Shooting an unmarked enemy causes the game to automatically uninstalls itself,  saving you the trouble of doing it. 

See where I'm going with this sarcasm? Sometimes we just want to have fun and watch the epic lightshow, not go MLG every single mission. Huge radial nukes meet this requirement, and sometimes it is the only thing making the frame fun and useful. And if you think the ash rework was successful,  you're wrong.  He's a killing frame with an extremely long duration power. It may work for him, but the clumsy controls still hinder his function more than most other frames. Not all aoe abilities are like ash though, and it will just fail miserably with their kit. All in all,  no.  To any of it. 

[Pro3Display]

22 minutes ago, Callback said:

The original post is very clear in its sarcasm.  I didn't read beyond skimming to see WAY too many people taking it literally.

to be sarcastic it lacks context

on it's own it's just a completely absurd statement and a troll bait, crappy one but still work

Edited December 5, 2016 by Pro3Display

[(PSN)Crixus044]

On 12/2/2016 at 2:25 PM, Shockwave- said:

I agree. Please don't listen to this whiner. Nerfing the good and godly abilities of WF will make WF a tactical shooter. Guns will be all that is used. The powerful warframes are there to be used. The energy economy needs to be reworked, not any frame. Not a single frame is OP if the Energy economy was good. Ash's old bladestorm was even perfectly fine if you could ot once per minute instead of constantly. Knowing when to use the tatical nuke that kills everything in the room (misama, bladstorm, etc) is what should be skill based, not actually using the skill.

FIx the energy economy and all the nerfs to frames don't have to happen.

 

Warframe is NOT a tactical shooter. It never was. Every single game nowadays is a tactical shooter. Warframe is different for a reason.  Stop trying to make it one.