Void Relics, Bigger Grind Wall?

[p3z1]

Yes, this is a discussion about relics, because we want to make the game better.

So, relics, IMO, are a bigger grind wall than the old void key system, here's why:
- There are 25 kinds of void keys (Exterminate, Mobile Defense, Capture, Defense, Survival, and Sabotage. T4 has Interception as well). These 25 keys compared to boatloads of relics. As much as we can stockpile Relics, it doesn't make the system any better. You WILL have to farm for relics, and they are diluted all around the place (paired with mods, endo, and credit caches).
- Per-relic efficiency. This one is pretty controversial it seems. Some people defend that relics are for balancing purposes. Others say that the old farming method for primes was better. In fact, the old system WAS better, allowing players to farm up to 4 primes in 20 minutes/waves, while spending one key. The current system requires a player to spend 4 relics, although it guarantees a prime part almost always.
- Drop rates. Before, the void key system only had one major flaw, Rotation A and B were rigged to be bad, while rotation C was rigged to be very diluted. I recall U8, where void keys only gave prime parts. The more primes that were added, the more diluted the reward tables became. I do not understand why (aside from DE needing to make money). There was also the fact that Rotation C gave you a good prime part (before T4 #*($%%@ up, that is). Now, players can reach "Rotation C" and still get common rewards, even if they are 4 Radiant runners. Sure, they can get lucky, but it makes it look like an RNG roll again.

The only positive thing I can think of right now about Relics is the slightly reduced amount of RNG involved to get a prime part. Sure we can refine relics to Radiant (10% for rare parts), but it's still kinda small of a chance to get. Also, we can pick rewards, making forma farming easier as a group. Solo players are, again, shafted, but that's another discussion.

RNG comparison between the Old and New Void system:

Old system:
- RNG to get a key
- RNG to get a prime part

New system:
- RNG to get a relic
- RNG to get an amount of void traces (optional, but makes it harder to score that rare part)
- RNG to get a good mission (personal preference, I like survivals and exterminates)
- semi-RNG to get the prime part

A little rant about Relics:

Spoiler

Why the hell was the Relic system implemented if you're still gonna vault primes? It doesn't make much sense really. You just upped the RNG, and made farming more tedious. The old system worked fine, you just had to remove the S#&$ rewards in there (3x O-cells, credit caches, R5 cores in Rotation C in a T4 survival?). Scaling rewards were supposed to be a thing before, now you just add them in endless fissure runs, and they still kinda suck. Sure, the boosters are welcome, but fissure runners would mostly go for prime parts, or better yet, pre-refined relics. Too bad those pre-refined relics start popping up when, 60 minutes in a run?

In summary, the relic system seems like a waste of time, since DE could just remove the trash rewards given before during the void keys. The old system looked bad due to said trash rewards (T2 capture key 60 minutes in a derelict survival, really)? The relic system wasn't needed to make rewards scale on endless missions.

[(XBOX)Shodian]

You could buy prime access if you don't like to farm for the parts.

[Tizodd]

New items requiring new relics to farm is definitely more grind.  I wish they'd just switch out rewards like they used to with keys.

[p3z1]

1 minute ago, (Xbox One)Shodian said:

You could buy prime access if you don't like to farm for the parts.

Yeah, that was the case before. That was the case now as well. I have nothing against that.

I'm just saying that the new system is a bigger grind compared to before.

[ashrah]

i alwayes see it like more grind from first time i hear they will implement it....

[(XBOX)Shodian]

9 minutes ago, p3z1 said:

Yeah, that was the case before. That was the case now as well. I have nothing against that.

I'm just saying that the new system is a bigger grind compared to before.

I respectfully disagree. The only thing here is you can't use stockpiled keys anymore to start looking for new parts. If you didn't have t Hey key you'd still have to go farm for it and use it. With the new system you have traces that you get from opening other relics for ducats that you use on the new relics. And if you have a full squad a choice of what you want. I feel this system is a lot better.

[xXDeadsinxX]

The new void system brought less boring grind but the more grind. It's the system we have now so :p

Edited December 7, 2016 by xXDeadsinxX

[Zanchak]

17 minutes ago, Tizodd said:

New items requiring new relics to farm is definitely more grind.  I wish they'd just switch out rewards like they used to with keys.

This. I'm tired of this. I'd rather when things were vaulted, they WERE.. not an entire relic so you have to go grind new ones all the time.

Edited December 7, 2016 by Zanchak
cause I tipe so gud

[ChuckMaverick]

In one of the (many) other threads on this exact same topic, someone mentioned that the maths had been done to demonstrate that the new relic system was more time efficient when farming for prime parts.

I think that was while I was on a break, does anyone have a link to those calculations?

[Crawd127]

10 minutes ago, (Xbox One)Shodian said:

You could buy prime access if you don't like to farm for the parts.

I'll be a bit mean about that answer, but why would I want to pay the price of a brand new game, for a very small part of a game in "Beta state".

As much as I like Warframe, I feel like it's not a good direction for a game. I do agree that DE needs a way to get money, but it's kinda absurd to pay the price of a game at any gamestore just to prevent the farming. I don't mind farming a little, but at some point, it's just stupid. I look at Xenoblade Chronicles on the Wii, I played 150 hours to complete as much as I can and I know that I'm only half-way done, plus the game had some grinding to do, but once I paid the game, I got everything, not just a part of it.

At some point, people has to ask themselves what game of game quality they want and at what cost. I do enjoy gaming, but I don't want to do it if it cost 2000$+ over 3 years, at this point, having a monthly fee of 12$ per month is better...

[Tsukinoki]

30 minutes ago, p3z1 said:

- There are 25 kinds of void keys (Exterminate, Mobile Defense, Capture, Defense, Survival, and Sabotage. T4 has Interception as well). These 25 keys compared to boatloads of relics. As much as we can stockpile Relics, it doesn't make the system any better. You WILL have to farm for relics, and they are diluted all around the place (paired with mods, endo, and credit caches).

While there may be "boatloads" more relics, the number of relics that are generally farmable at any one time aren't that much higher.
The only times that there are a decent number (as in more than 20%) more relics than there were keys is during the short unvaulting periods.
Aside from that the number of farmable relics is largely the same as the number of keys.
Also, you had to farm for keys in the old system as well.
Not everyone had hundreds and hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of T3S keys to use and had to farm them up....which is what people have to do with relics.

30 minutes ago, p3z1 said:

- Drop rates. Before, the void key system only had one major flaw, Rotation A and B were rigged to be bad, while rotation C was rigged to be very diluted. I recall U8, where void keys only gave prime parts. The more primes that were added, the more diluted the reward tables became. I do not understand why (aside from DE needing to make money). There was also the fact that Rotation C gave you a good prime part (before T4 #*($%%@ up, that is). Now, players can reach "Rotation C" and still get common rewards, even if they are 4 Radiant runners. Sure, they can get lucky, but it makes it look like an RNG roll again.

The only positive thing I can think of right now about Relics is the slightly reduced amount of RNG involved to get a prime part. Sure we can refine relics to Radiant (10% for rare parts), but it's still kinda small of a chance to get. Also, we can pick rewards, making forma farming easier as a group. Solo players are, again, shafted, but that's another discussion.

Just "slightly" reduced?  Try massively reduced.

In order to get a 99% chance to get the one rare item you need from a relic you need 44 Radiants.
Compared that to the 232 run using keys to get the same 99% chance for the one rare part that you are after.

That's the rough upper bounds of runs needed to "guarantee" the prime part you need/want.  And the difference is utterly staggering.

To put this into time terms:
To get a 99% chance to get the one rare item you needed From T3/4 survival in the key system would take 77 hours.
To get a 99% chance to get the one rare item you need in the relic system would take 2 hours, and this is if you are running it solo.  In a group of 4 people it would only take just over half and hour.  This is assuming fast 3 minute runs which is easily doable in the current system.
Hek, even if you use Intact relics, which have the same drop rates as the old key system (5% chance for rares split amongst 2-3 rares per key) roughly of getting the one rare part you are after it will only take 11 hours solo, and in a group it would be quite a bit faster.

So at the very worst the new system has you grinding for the part you want at most 11 hours....compared to 77 in the old system.
And again this is just the upper bounds of time that is needed to "guarantee" the reward you want.

Many people can and do get things faster then this but still, the upper bounds for the old system was simply so much more that the time required in the new system is utterly insignificant in comparison.
Even if you take into account grinding for the relics the new system is still much faster than the old system could ever hope to be.

Also I have problem with this line:
 

30 minutes ago, p3z1 said:

There was also the fact that Rotation C gave you a good prime part (before T4 #*($%%@ up, that is). Now, players can reach "Rotation C" and still get common rewards, even if they are 4 Radiant runners.

This happened in the key system as well.
There were dozens and dozens of runs to 20 minutes/waves in T3/T4 survival and defense where I got a trash common part or forma over and over and over and over again.

So this isn't a problem with the relics alone, stop acting like it is.

Edited December 7, 2016 by Tsukinoki

[Skaleek]

The venka gauntlets in this PA were a cruel joke. I had to farm 20 meso V4? (cant remember the number specifically) relics and then 2000 void traces to radiant them in order to get my 2 gauntlets. This was grindier than -almost- anything i've ever had to do in Void Key Prime Accesses. The one exception being the 23 hours i had to spend in t2s to get the volt prime systems, way back in the day. But on the plus side that 23 hours i spent probably net me about 2-3k ducats.

This system doesn't have to be worse than the old system. DE just makes it that way. Venka Prime blades, of which you also needed 2, were on the relic that just happened to drop way less than any other Axi relic, effectively making these "common" parts rare. They know what they're doing, and I really hope the playerbase pushes back on it, because honestly its kinda cruel to their playerbase. I felt so punished after this last PA, I had to puddle hydroid in xini for hours and hours, which honestly was just as boring as any void key PA grind, maybe moreso. Why make the one relic thats the most demanded in a PA the hardest to get other then to punish your playerbase? This system could be fine if the numbers were more rational.

You should not be able to get 6 @(*()$ void traces from a relic run. 6... are you joking? It should be a flat 25 everytime, 50 with a resource booster. Making things concrete and less RNG based would be a huge step towards the game feeling less like we are fighting against DE's RNG -every- god damn step of the way.

Edited December 7, 2016 by Skaleek

[0zryel]

I hate to agree to a certain point, but its true...as new items requiring new relics to farm...traces help but is still RNG, when we had Keys it you just pile them up and wait for the next new thing to pop up so you can farm it... 

 

I think relic is a good Idea but it needs a bit more polish... Everything in the update came out a bit too Grindy... I think we have to try and endure it... the good thing about Warframe is that's is always changing...

The only thing that is permanent and never changing exept for the better, is cosmetics, Prime accessories... yes, Fashion Frame is our only loyal friend! 

Edited December 7, 2016 by 0zryel

[ChuckMaverick]

5 minutes ago, Skaleek said:

This system doesn't have to be worse than the old system. DE just makes it that way. Venka Prime blades, of which you also needed 2, were on the relic that just happened to drop way less than any other Axi relic, effectively making these "common" parts, rare.

No, as long as you were smart about where you farmed them*, Axi V5 relics dropped with exactly the same chance as all other Axi relics.

_{(* There is one class of mission where Axi V5 is missing from rot B)}

[Skaleek]

4 minutes ago, ChuckMaverick said:

No, as long as you were smart about where you farmed them*, Axi V5 relics dropped with exactly the same chance as all other Axi relics.

_{(* There is one class of mission where Axi V5 is missing from rot B)}

No, Axi V5 only drops on C rotations whereas all the others drop from B and C. Also, the newest Axi relic, E1, is excluded from a ton of the drop tables. Currently not even xini rot C has them, the only place i know where to get them is Hieracon rotation C.

Smart about where i farmed them? Hieracon rotation C was and is the fastest Axi V5 key per minute of farm currently, and during the Valk PA. Go on reddit and look up the drop tables, theres an excel sheet, the AXI V5 relic drops less than all the other relics, by virtue of it being excluded from all B rotations.

Edited December 7, 2016 by Skaleek

[Drufo]

I partly agree. The system all in all is better than the old one, but as times goes we will see an impressive Relic dilution and this is what makes the grind worse.

What they should do, is to make a more varied and less RNG-dependent way of acquiring Relics. IMO the best way would be to put Relics in Void missions as side objectives/droppable items (there are 4 "branches" in the Void map, each branch could be assigned to an Orokin Era), in addition to normal missions.

Edited December 7, 2016 by Drufo

[(XBOX)Shodian]

26 minutes ago, Crawd127 said:

I'll be a bit mean about that answer, but why would I want to pay the price of a brand new game, for a very small part of a game in "Beta state".

As much as I like Warframe, I feel like it's not a good direction for a game. I do agree that DE needs a way to get money, but it's kinda absurd to pay the price of a game at any gamestore just to prevent the farming. I don't mind farming a little, but at some point, it's just stupid. I look at Xenoblade Chronicles on the Wii, I played 150 hours to complete as much as I can and I know that I'm only half-way done, plus the game had some grinding to do, but once I paid the game, I got everything, not just a part of it.

At some point, people has to ask themselves what game of game quality they want and at what cost. I do enjoy gaming, but I don't want to do it if it cost 2000$+ over 3 years, at this point, having a monthly fee of 12$ per month is better..

But Warframe is a free to play game, funded by nobody but the players themselves, This is their way of making sure we get more content. Xenoblade never got an upgrade after it came out. Different types of games require different types of ways to stay a float. If a player doesn't feel like that money is justified for an item way would they put any time into it either?

[xXDeadsinxX]

1 minute ago, Drufo said:

I partly agree. The system all in all is better than the old one, but as times goes we will see an impressive Relic dilution and this is what makes the grind worse.

What they should do, is to make a more varied and less RNG-dependent way of acquiring Relics. IMO the best way would be to put those Relics in Void missions as side objectives/droppable items (there are 4 "branches" in the Void map, each branch could be assigned to an Orokin Era)

That would be cool.

[Skaleek]

4 minutes ago, (Xbox One)Shodian said:

But Warframe is a free to play game, funded by nobody but the players themselves, This is their way of making sure we get more content. Xenoblade never got an upgrade after it came out. Different types of games require different types of ways to stay a float. If a player doesn't feel like that money is justified for an item way would they put any time into it either?

I used to buy the PA accessory packs to support DE's game. Sometimes I'd buy this or that just to sink some cash into their wallet because i approved of their design direction. For about a year now I havent given them any money because their game's grind has spiraled out of control despite them frequently promising on devstreams to "reduce the rng and the grind". So I don't know, maybe if more people took a stance that was less tolerant of punishing RNG system, DE would respond and pull back from the ledge. Unfortunately, as long as people are willing to pay, we shoot ourselves in the foot.

I also stopped giving them money because of their forum moderation abuse but that's unrelated.

Edited December 7, 2016 by Skaleek

[ChuckMaverick]

5 minutes ago, Skaleek said:

No, Axi V5 only drops on C rotations whereas all the others drop from B and C. Also, the newest Axi relic, E1, is excluded from a ton of the drop tables. Currently not even xini rot C has them, the only place i know where to get them is Hieracon rotation C.

Smart about where i farmed them? Hieracon rotation C was and is the fastest Axi V5 key per minute of farm currently, and during the Valk PA. Go on reddit and look up the drop tables, theres an excel sheet, the AXI V5 relic drops less than all the other relics, by virtue of it being excluded from all B rotations.

You need better sources for your information.

Xini and other 'hard' interception missions are the only place where the Axi V5 was missing from a rotation, it dropped from every other Axi relic drop location, with exactly the same chance as all other Axi relics.

Hieracon or Zabala (depending on your group) are the best places for Axi E1.

[Lyravain]

Relics are definitely not more grindy than keys. You have to get more of them, but have you thought about using them? It takes a bit longer to gather your relics, but now you can run relics much faster for what you need, considering you can choose what kind of reward you get, instead of depending on RNGesus to bless you once every 20minutes/waves. Speaking of, isn't it MUCH faster to get that rare, doing 5minutes in a mission before you can see if you rolled lucky or not, rather than having the same chances but rolling only once every 20minutes? Not to mention, in a team, you don't roll once, but up to 4 times, drastically increasing the rate of getting what you want.

So, to answer your question; no, it's NOT more grindy with relics. Annoying when you don't have standing to get syndicate relic packs and have to do missions instead? Sure. But grindy? Not even close to where it was before. You know, where you still had to grind for keys and then use them one at a time.

[Skaleek]

5 minutes ago, ChuckMaverick said:

You need better sources for your information.

Xini and other 'hard' interception missions are the only place where the Axi V5 was missing from a rotation, it dropped from every other Axi relic drop location, with exactly the same chance as all other Axi relics.

Hieracon or Zabala (depending on your group) are the best places for Axi E1.

My sources are the drop tables datamined, lol. There's a reason V5's are more rare than any other relic. The fact is most people did hieracon or xini to farm relics last PA. While hieracon had equal drop rate for axi relics, Xini (which has the most shared tables throughout the starmap) did not in rotation B. This made an AXI V5 relic drought that can still be seen in game. I think you're confused, honestly. The fact that Xini (and all nodes that share xini's tables) didnt have it in rotation B has a huge impact on the rarity of the relic. Go get a V5 relic, right now, and tell me how long it takes you. Thats the point. Maybe you'll get lucky and get it in one rotation on hieracon, but odds are you need to do 4000 Cryotic on hieracon for one. That's a lot, and thats only a 50% certainty that you will.

Edited December 7, 2016 by Skaleek

[ChuckMaverick]

Just now, Skaleek said:

Find me a rotation B in any node that drops axi V5.

• Proteus, Neptune
• Outer Terminus, Pluto
• Kala-azar, Eris
• Hydron, Sedna
• Belenus, Void
• Stöfler, Lua
• Tamu, Kuva Fortress

...all have Axi V5 drops in rotation B.

[LSG501]

My biggest issue with the relics is the rng like everything else.  I don't mind spending some time farming (to a point) for relics but you know I'd like to be able to get the relics I'm missing rather than just getting the same relics over and over that I've completed already.    It wouldn't be so bad if we could convert the relics for a cost but we can't.  We can't even purchase the exact relic we want from syndicates (complete waste of time using this as it's always the same old relics for me) or even the market for plat.

In my experience I've been struggling to get the relics with nikana parts (still not had many) and now the venka parts along with that lovely axi v5.... with the last part of valkyr I need....  While I understand some of the items need to be rarer the rarity should be in the rng of the relic when it opens not on getting the relic in the first place. 

[Skaleek]

7 minutes ago, ChuckMaverick said:

• Proteus, Neptune
• Outer Terminus, Pluto
• Kala-azar, Eris
• Hydron, Sedna
• Belenus, Void
• Stöfler, Lua
• Tamu, Kuva Fortress

...all have Axi V5 drops in rotation B.

I removed that part of my post because i didnt re-iterate that im doing excavation or interception, as they are leaps and boooounds faster than defenses and survivals. and still faster per key per minute with only one drop in C. Read the whole post, are you really telling me that V5 is not the most sought out, rare Axi relic currently? Maybe E1 now, but ignore that one. Venka prime blades, a common part, were selling for 40-50 plat, and you're really gnitpicking and focusing on one part of my post. Please read the whole thing and respond to it all, because my point stands, DE has made the relic system grindy by choice, and it doesnt have to be. And i'm not wrong, either, Axi V5 does drop less than any other relic, on average, throughout the starmap. DE creates rarity, its not that hard to understand.

Edited December 7, 2016 by Skaleek