Kuva Siphons are a mess at the moment. (UPDATED with info from 19.6.3 Patch Notes)

[erny0507]

I need a separate key binding section for operator mode.

[Dergas]

38 minutes ago, taiiat said:

Siphons do infact give tutorial information

What tutorial? When a flying cloud of dust dashes toward you, my last instinct would be to void dash into it. Having a message that says "Press 5 to use transference" and then having the Queen say "Gasp! What is it doing?" is not much of a tutorial.

Edited December 29, 2016 by Dergas

[Tyrian3k]

36 minutes ago, taiiat said:

you need to explore the map even the slightest bit to make sure you find the Siphon.
truly, a sentence worse than death.

 

Siphons do infact give tutorial information. and if you're doing poorly, it gives you more tutorial information.
War Within was not a long time ago, memory isn't an issue - not to mention this is literally the only thing these game mechanics are used for in the game in the first place, once the tutorial of how to use each Tool is finished.

 

Blood spawning very close to the Siphon is a bug - you won't report the bugs, but you will complain that there are bugs and denounce everything as terrible because of them.

 

but, control gripes can happen, and are poo.

3/4 isn't bad. wait, that's 1/4. ouch.

The exploring is usually a non-issue. Can't remember having to search it outside of survival missions, since it is usually somewhere on the path from start-->objective-->extraction.

The siphons don't give any kind of tutorial, though, no matter how bad you're failing. When I first tried a kuva siphon, I was solo and had no idea what I'm supposed to do. Lotus's comments were about as helpful as "This is bad! Do something!"

How do you know it is a bug? I don't see how it is a bug when the tile that the siphon spawned in is too small to give the kuva any room to move in from. An example for a room like that would be the small storage room on the Ceres tileset.

The only gripe I have with controls is that I can't reliably void dash instantly after getting out of my warframe. Usually, it makes me dash straight up instead of where I'm aiming.

[taiiat]

21 minutes ago, Tyrian3k said:

The siphons don't give any kind of tutorial, though, no matter how bad you're failing. When I first tried a kuva siphon, I was solo and had no idea what I'm supposed to do. Lotus's comments were about as helpful as "This is bad! Do something!"

How do you know it is a bug? I don't see how it is a bug when the tile that the siphon spawned in is too small to give the kuva any room to move in from. An example for a room like that would be the small storage room on the Ceres tileset.

The only gripe I have with controls is that I can't reliably void dash instantly after getting out of my warframe. Usually, it makes me dash straight up instead of where I'm aiming.

(i don't have multiple accounts, so i can't ensure that the tutorial information is still there - but even Teshin gets involved with Siphon tutorial information)

before the Holidays, Siphons have already had Blood spawns adjusted, and some Tiles even temporarily disabled as valid locations while locations are adjusted.

if i had to guess (as that is certainly a prevalent issue), issues like that are exacerbated issues that Bullet Jumping has in general, in that the angle is modulated by the angle of the ground under you (instead of just by where you're looking), and that Bullet Jump goes towards your Aiming Reticule (instead of just by where you're looking - i.e. directly forwards relative to Camera).
Et Cetera.

[(PSN)Onder6099]

Isn't better to give players few tips rather than make a decision how bad is Kuva farming after short time she is here and when everything need a practice?

[Jackviator]

17 hours ago, Larvatheoz said:

There are 3 or more ways to be aware of the clouds, 1 by sound 2 by looking at them 3 by being marked as an enemy by other player.

That doesn't help much when the cloud spawns right next to the siphon, giving you about 3 seconds to react to it, when you could be, say, in the middle of getting ragdolled by the inexplicably nigh-immortal Kuva Guardians.

17 hours ago, Larvatheoz said:

There is no tutorial ok, like too many other missions on the game u gotta practice and some got to be learned yes, it´s how the game manages our journey.

That is a very bad way to "manage your journey." In fact I'd argue that involves no management whatsoever, just a hands-free approach that teaches the player literally nothing from the get-go and only allows them to learn in the format of the rest of their squad cussing them out for not knowing what to do. That's not exactly the best teaching method, no?

17 hours ago, Larvatheoz said:

but u do have some in-mission tips,

"Don't let them get any more Kuva," is not an in-game tip, it's a vague plea from the Lotus as you're desperately fumbling at what the hell you're supposed to be doing to "not let them get any more Kuva." There is nothing even close to in-mission tips.

17 hours ago, Larvatheoz said:

You can always ask tho.

You shouldn't have to resort to asking your squad what the hell you should be doing. It should be explained by the people whose job it is to explain it to you, aka the DEVS.

17 hours ago, Larvatheoz said:

The reallity is, i see those kind of high lvl missions to be the only ones in the game presenting a real challenge to the player.

Sure, higher-level enemies are fine for the sake of challenge, but having no idea what the hell you're supposed to be doing because no one explained it to you is not a challenge. Having the Kuva Clouds spawn at such a close proximity to the Kuva Siphon that you have almost a 0% chance of getting them is not a challenge. It is artificial difficulty that has no reason to be there.

[Jackviator]

On 12/29/2016 at 10:42 AM, (PS4)Onder6099 said:

Isn't better to give players few tips rather than make a decision how bad is Kuva farming after short time she is here and when everything need a practice?

It's hard for people to practice when they don't know what to practice. Because they weren't told what exactly they're supposed to even do.

[(PSN)Onder6099]

7 hours ago, Jackviator said:

It's hard for people to practice when they don't know what to practice. Because they weren't told what exactly they're supposed to even do.

We finnaly got something what is not something like walk thru rose garden. As @taiiatsaid, base info is i n TWW Quest, everything else is about our discovery how to effective play those missions and practice, because if we got all info the explorations and practice will become routine and we will see ton posts about how those missions are boring. Or are u realy so lazy and u want to have everything served like kings dinner on gold dishes?

[ShogunGunshow]

You'd think people would remember how to deal with those guards, but golly gee whiz does everyone just stand around while four of them are swarming, dying over and over. 

My personal issues with Kuva missions at the moment are

1) Finding the stupid thing can be a major hassle sometimes (it should show up on the map after five minutes, imo)

2) Bugs with the jump. Any uneven floor can and will F*** you. Aiming up to catch the cloud? Too bad, you didn't see the two inch steel plate by your character's feet. BAMF, goes nowhere.

[stormsasuke180]

3 hours ago, (PS4)Onder6099 said:

We finnaly got something what is not something like walk thru rose garden. As @taiiatsaid, base info is i n TWW Quest, everything else is about our discovery how to effective play those missions and practice, because if we got all info the explorations and practice will become routine and we will see ton posts about how those missions are boring. Or are u realy so lazy and u want to have everything served like kings dinner on gold dishes?

TWW does not explain Kuva Siphons at all. Until someone in the forums explained to me what I was supposed to do a day or two ago, I had no idea what I was even supposed to do. I thought it was kill the guardians until the Kuva Siphon was gone. You can't explore about something that you don't even knoe exists. 

[HolidayPi3]

20 minutes ago, stormsasuke180 said:

TWW does not explain Kuva Siphons at all. Until someone in the forums explained to me what I was supposed to do a day or two ago, I had no idea what I was even supposed to do. I thought it was kill the guardians until the Kuva Siphon was gone. You can't explore about something that you don't even knoe exists. 

What makes this even more hilarious is that your initial assumption about how to destroy the siphons (kill the fat guys) comes directly from how they have you destroy Queens' Braids in TWW. So most players' first instinct is probably to do exactly what you did--  kill the guards and then shoot the braids.

But that mechanic that they teach you never happens anywhere else. Kuva clouds never appear in TWW. They teach you how to kill braids that never appear again.

Edited January 1, 2017 by HolidayPi3

[Jackviator]

17 hours ago, HolidayPi3 said:

What makes this even more hilarious is that your initial assumption about how to destroy the siphons (kill the fat guys) comes directly from how they have you destroy Queens' Braids in TWW. So most players' first instinct is probably to do exactly what you did--  kill the guards and then shoot the braids.

But that mechanic that they teach you never happens anywhere else. Kuva clouds never appear in TWW. They teach you how to kill braids that never appear again.

I... honestly did not think of that until now. I might edit that in to the OP later on.

...Hell the Lotus even calls them "the Queens' braids," same as what they're called in TWW, so people would probably be even more influenced into thinking they should just kill the guardians. No wonder people think that stuff/are doing these missions wrong, that's like being taught extensively in how to drive a car, then being told to fly a plane. Sure it's similar in a couple ways (there are Kuva guardians in both cases, like there's a steering wheel in both cases) and some of the basic theory of it applies, but it still doesn't prep you to fly a plane.

Edited January 1, 2017 by Jackviator

[(PSN)CactusButtons]

I myself have had no problems in Kuva siphon missions. Sometimes going out of the path to the objective or path from objective to extraction but not by that much as even the biggest of tile sets can be maneuvered through in reasonable time. All u need is to get close enough then it will b displayed on the map where the siphon is. N just like all missions on warframe it can be beneficial or detrimental based on what warframe u bring n ability ur built for. Sometimes it's in smaller rooms with the Kuva spawning very close but the vacuums will point towards the direction the Kuva comes from making it easy to find. Sometimes I don't even see the Kuva when it's in compact locations I just quickly dash in the direction the vacuums pointing to and viola. Going solo spawns fewer enemies/queens guards n bringing a slow nova makes it like a walk in the park. 

[RistN]

Kuva siphon missions are not mess at the moment.They are a mess from first time they appeared.

[Troll_Logic]

Kuva is a hot mess implemented is a very stupid and gimmicky way in order to reroll increasing costly rolls that are always random for mods that are only worth it a millionth of the time.

I'm avoiding it like the plague.

[Tyrian3k]

On 1.1.2017 at 2:47 AM, (PS4)Onder6099 said:

We finnaly got something what is not something like walk thru rose garden. As @taiiatsaid, base info is i n TWW Quest, everything else is about our discovery how to effective play those missions and practice, because if we got all info the explorations and practice will become routine and we will see ton posts about how those missions are boring. Or are u realy so lazy and u want to have everything served like kings dinner on gold dishes?

 

I've done tons of those missions and even the floods aren't really hard. The biggest problem is that there is nothing that tells you what is even going on if you're new, which is one of the most frustrating things to happen in a video game. If Lotus gave you increasingly more detailed instructions on how to destroy it as it collects more, it would be fine, but she says the equivalent of "This is bad! Do something!", so players who do this for the first time have absolutely no clue what they are supposed to do without looking it up somewhere. Nothing tells the player to void dash through the kuva clouds at all, or even hints at it, needless to say that a player may not even notice they exist while in battle with the spawning enemies.

TWW only ever explained how to kill the guardians, not how to collect Kuva, which, as Jackviator pointed out, can even act as a red herring.

Kuva Siphons and Operator Mode both have some issues that need addressing. Surprisingly, the difficulty isn't one of them.

Everyone knows that Scorches (and Hyekka masters for that matter) are currently broken, dealing way more damage than they should.

Same goes for Ramparts. Even a Chroma with thousands of armor can be killed quite quickly by them. Squishy frames die practically in an instant. The fact that they always face you, can't be damaged from the front and that punch through doesn't work on them doesn't help either.

Those aren't kuva siphon problems, though.

[Jackviator]

14 hours ago, Tyrian3k said:

TWW only ever explained how to kill the guardians, not how to collect Kuva, which, as Jackviator pointed out, can even act as a red herring.

Credit where credit's due; I won't take the credit for essentially building off of what what @HolidayPi3 said.

lol I even said I honestly didn't think of it until they said it :P

14 hours ago, Tyrian3k said:

Everyone knows that Scorches (and Hyekka masters for that matter) are currently broken, dealing way more damage than they should.

Same goes for Ramparts. Even a Chroma with thousands of armor can be killed quite quickly by them. Squishy frames die practically in an instant. The fact that they always face you, can't be damaged from the front and that punch through doesn't work on them doesn't help either.

Those aren't kuva siphon problems, though.

Eh... I'd argue that they certainly have a big impact on them at the very least, especially because most Siphon missions I've seen seem to take place on Sedna and Ceres, both Grineer planets. Maybe that's just me only being logged in when the fortress is near them though :P who can say.

[Tyrian3k]

46 minutes ago, Jackviator said:

Eh... I'd argue that they certainly have a big impact on them at the very least, especially because most Siphon missions I've seen seem to take place on Sedna and Ceres, both Grineer planets. Maybe that's just me only being logged in when the fortress is near them though :P who can say.

I guess I didn't say it clearly enough. What I meant was that those problems aren't exclusive to kuva siphon missions, but simply to all missions with Scorches and/or Hyekka Masters. You are right when you say that they probably impact siphons more, since enemies just pop in right next to you and may instantly start shooting. In the case of a flamethrower Grineer, this means instant death for a squishy frame.

[(PSN)Silverback73]

On December 28, 2016 at 2:26 PM, Sigmas71 said:

When will game developers learn that "damage immunity" aka having your player aim, shoot, and hit something for 0 freaking damage is an incredibly pathetic excuse for a game mechanic, regardless of its function or context. 

"Yes, you maxed your gun. No, it won't do squat until you jump through the pointless hoops we set up in "Unwanted Update #108"

Also makes for lame boss fights in every case. 

 

I don't even mind THIS ^, but my mind still is not able to comprehend any semblance of cause and effect.

Not being able to void hide'n'dash?  At first I thought it was a timing issue.  Then I thought it might be an invisible power bar recharge issue.  Now I just don't know.

On a regular Kuva run I might get 1/8 or 7/8 and I might help destroy the siphon or not but I rarely "see" the gas clearly and am clumsily cueing off of sounds and feel rather stupid.  Regardless I seem to leave a regular mission with about 600+ Kuva so even THAT result isn't giving any reliable feedback.

I apologize to squadmates who feel like they are playing with a hoppy-go-lucky MR22 idiot...

Edited January 2, 2017 by (PS4)Silverback73

[czcbibliothekar]

1 hour ago, (PS4)Silverback73 said:

Not being able to void hide'n'dash?  At first I thought it was a timing issue.  Then I thought it might be an invisible power bar recharge issue.  Now I just don't know.

There's a small yellow quarter-circle below your reticule that shows your void-power level. Basically anything you do eats from that power, and the pool is pretty small (crouch and dash eats it up almost entirely). And because they chose a rather dark yellow for it, and it's only about as big as those red triangles indicating enemies in Archwing missions ... yup, it's easy to miss.

[(PSN)Silverback73]

50 minutes ago, czcbibliothekar said:

There's a small yellow quarter-circle below your reticule that shows your void-power level. Basically anything you do eats from that power, and the pool is pretty small (crouch and dash eats it up almost entirely). And because they chose a rather dark yellow for it, and it's only about as big as those red triangles indicating enemies in Archwing missions ... yup, it's easy to miss.

Thanks.  I remember seeing it, but it also seems inconsistent.

[Tyrian3k]

6 hours ago, Jackviator said:

most Siphon missions I've seen seem to take place on Sedna and Ceres, both Grineer planets.

Hmm, it also seems like the Grineer Shipyard tileset is the one that causes the most problems with having to look for the siphon. On all the other tilesets, I never had to look for it outside of survivals. Never did many of those before, but now that I do them, I can see why you were complaining about not finding the siphon.

[(PSN)auwsomestgamer]

On 12/29/2016 at 3:28 AM, Jackviator said:

We have powers that have been established to be capable of buffing everything from our frames to our dogs, hell, Rhino's roar is capable of somehow buffing the attack power of cryopods, but our abilities cannot buff Operators, for... what reason, exactly? No reason? Ok then.

Pretty sure Volt can still buff operator but will have to confirm. My main problem is the fact that clouds are able to spawn off the map (eg. ledges). Dashing into them doesn't work as you fall off. 

[EvilChaosKnight]

Not only there's no tutorial, Lotus is actually giving out wrong info.

When you or your squadmate dash through the kuva cloud, she sometimes says "Good. Now target the others" while her subtitle text says (IIRC) "Good. Now target the other braids" which is not even close to what you actually need to do.

[Jackviator]

Shameless bump, because the Devs are back from vacation and, well, I kinda want to see this stuff fixed. Kinda the point of the thread and whatnot.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Edited January 3, 2017 by Jackviator