"Why is the Helminth Charger a grineer" or How I learned to read lore and stop worrying.

[Domesticon]

5 hours ago, skelo0 said:

Psst... its not placeholder

 

Look at his Twitter again.

[ZeroGenmu]

 

5 hours ago, skelo0 said:

Psst... its not placeholder

 

Sorry but that's only part of the conversation. Charger is the intended concept but the design isn't. Looks like they're gonna update the model when they come back from holiday break.

Also the helminth Virus is an older strain of the infested that we know now, so it doesn't make sense to have a grineer mask. If you paid attention in Glast Gambit it clearly states that Neewa has an older strain of the virus inside her. Helminth chamber is only opened when Nidus is near it, which indicates that Helminth himself is part of that old strain inside Neewa. 

Edited December 31, 2016 by ZeroGenmu

[-Ropefish-]

tbh it isn't that far fetched, there was some post a long time ago saying the infested are older than the void... ( being that the orokin re-created it or woke it up so to speak ) and the fact that they thrive in the void and we don't really know what the void is.... in all honesty id bet whatever makes the infected tick is in the void. 

[SeaUrchins]

It is an infested charger made of a grineer because it has not received an original model. Simple as that there's no lore twist behind it.

9 hours ago, StinkyPygmy said:

Boiler still never made sense to me. You can only work with the matter that you are given. Matter cannot be created or destroyed, ergo, boilers are a bit of a mess from a lore prespective. If they spawned maggots or something else I'd be completely fine with it. But not chargers or crewman.

Atlas can infinitely spawn rumblers (actually living beings) made of rock in space ships made of metal, logic and physics do not work in games as in RL.

Edited December 31, 2016 by SeaUrchins

[TotallyLagging]

ITT : I try to justify a last-minute content by stretching the lore as hard as I possibly could

 

I kid, I kid. But really, even Steve himself said the "content guys were tapped out at that point", it's likely a placeholder what with it still using Kubrow animations and having bugged Kubrow armor.

Edited December 31, 2016 by TotallyLagging

[Smilomaniac]

While OP's explanation makes things plausible, it's not what's happening.

When looking at lore, you have to balance developer decisions and what makes sense in game. Even if the intention was that we were supposed to infer that the egg would become a grineer charger, it's such a vague and illogical deduction that the average player wouldn't make sense of it, yet everyone and their mother can see that there are several things wrong with the model we got.

The simple explanation is that the devs wanted to rush out Nidus and Helminth, but didn't have time to do the charger properly. The idea that "players have wanted it forever" is not a bad one, but we already have charger specters, effectively giving you the option to summon a charger. No, it's not the same as having your very own pet that you can name and dress up, but it's definitely something.

I get it though, as much as the Silver Grove and Titania (as well as earlier frames/quests) break the idea of Prime frames, you occasionally have to swallow your pride and wanting to explain everything, and accept that the devs screw up once in a while.
While I'm a tiny bit salty with the charger, it's not as much it as it took 7 days to reveal a disappointing mystery and didn't add anything else to the infested room, which took much longer before finally being revealed. We may get more soon, or it may take another half year before anything happens and that makes me sad.

[TheChaotic1]

I missed a lot during that sleep, thankfully most folks round here are pretty mature.

I am not stretching the lore to justify anything, this is how I really feel the infested function. As for helminth, the Grineer have been around since before the infested, so it's possible that the current Chargers are based on a older prototype, or heven could even still be attached to the hive mind. Honestly there is no telling. Probably just there to give us the charger anyway

Edited December 31, 2016 by TheChaotic1

[Gemenai]

 

Off-topic, I guess?

19 minutes ago, TheChaotic1 said:

"...this is how I really feel the infested function."

Don't get me wrong, as english is not my native tongue, but shouldn't it be >how you "think" the infested function< ?

Because I see this quite often on forums, but logically I can't take someone serious, if this someone bases his hyptheses on personal feelings rather than logical thought.

 

[Praxxor]

12 hours ago, TheChaotic1 said:

Its implied that the infested healers reduce damage because they are replicating a specially made one of a kind orokin artifact, I think a hunk of ferrite isn't that hard to replicate. Infestation is not as organic as it looks.

Infestation CAN manipulate and create metals, but that's not what they're arguing against at all. It feels like you know that but avoid it anyway.

[TheChaotic1]

3 hours ago, Gemenai said:

 

Off-topic, I guess?

Don't get me wrong, as english is not my native tongue, but shouldn't it be >how you "think" the infested function< ?

Because I see this quite often on forums, but logically I can't take someone serious, if this someone bases his hyptheses on personal feelings rather than logical thought.

 

I have provided evidence for why I think this, I've been over this a few times in this thread, gonna edit the main post later today.

English isn't a literal language, think and feel are pretty interchangeable, I am not saying I can feel it in my bones, I am saying that what we know about infested has lead me to this conclusion

Edited December 31, 2016 by TheChaotic1

[TheChaotic1]

2 hours ago, Praxxor said:

Infestation CAN manipulate and create metals, but that's not what they're arguing against at all. It feels like you know that but avoid it anyway.

All I am saying is that a grineer  charger makes sense from where the lore stands, I am not defending the terrible implementation 

[Mak_Gohae]

17 hours ago, -FV-Metheria said:

But like, it can manufacture a artificial metal plated mask? Does Ordis subtly build one for it behind our backs?

in your pic you can see the gaunlets and the back price growing eyes out of it. So the infest can, of course, adjust metal. Also warframes and mutalist, those two use metal and infested parts.

17 hours ago, StinkyPygmy said:

It still doesn't make a whole lot of sense. The infested can only work with the biomatter they are given. Give them a grineer and the mutation is based on the Grineer DNA structure. Give them a regular human and its based on that. You can't work with mass that you don't physically have. And seeing as the Infested don't seem to have a pool of stored biomass and DNA structures (like the Zerg do) then they can't pull DNA from whatever they choose. If they do, its certainly at a central hub that is more often then not separated from the majority of outbreaks and certainly not on the orbiter. You could argue Heilmith has his own store, but its still just boring and underwhelming.  Even if it did make sense, thats beside the point, I'm more concerned with the fact that is just a lazily reused model and (I hope) its just a place holder till DE gets back.

It's a tame clone of the Charger. That answers all. It cysts sucks ferrite and allow from the frame that is going to use for the armor pieces.

This is the same things as grow a kub. You add the genes to the eggs and in this case you add the cyst.

17 hours ago, HerpDerpy said:

I think everyone is forgetting that everything to do with this new pet was rushed an lazy, and if DE had more time to make it they never would have made it just a regular charger with greneer bits and armor.

Think about it. Reused charger model, reused kubrow skeleton and animations, reused abilities and art from other kubrows, you can even put kubrow armor on them even though they dont fit what so ever.

so instead of trying to justify the charger with lore, can we not just accept that this thing is in no way the final product?

No, some of us wanted a charger and we got one.

16 hours ago, CY13ERPUNK said:

i just do not understand why the 'white knights' so desperately want to 'defend' DE on this

like, just wow

the mental gymnastics must be exhausting XD

i dont understand why the "haters" are so desperately hating on this.

BTW, the mental gymnastics are there to explain it to you folks that keep saying how it doesnt make sense.

Quote

even IF DE just wanted to give us the GRINEER charger model as is with no changes, then why introduce it as an infected virus that cultures within a WARFRAME and then requires a KUBROW egg to mix genetics with AND then re-uses the kubrow rig AND armor AND re-uses the kubrow mods... like srsly, this was a super last-minute / lazy-rush job and it shows all over...

Because we spent a few days freaking out over what was going on. And that was fun.
Plus the thing uses a Kub egg, it's half kub.

Quote

i dont think we should get the pitchforks and try to crucify DE or anything, but FFS lets just call a spade a spade, they were lazy and they did a sloppy job and now they just need to polish it and make it make more sense and/or give us unique mods/abilties/models for the new infested kubrow/kavats

The charger just moves forwards and swipes at you, what unique mods does it need?

 

13 hours ago, SilvaDreams said:

Well just to clarify for some people as to "Where do they get the armor"

Well even mother nature has made creatures that can use metal, carbon and other things into their structure.

I mean look at our own bones for crying out loud. 

 

Plus it is some kind of super virus that stores excess DNA not of it's own.

Yup

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scaly-foot_gastropod

13 hours ago, Naith said:

So what about how it has no kubrow features despite being infested during the incubation stage? Surely it would have some of those at least.

It has a lot but they are on the inside. Heh-heh.

9 hours ago, Kuestenjung said:

The cyst is growing on warframes, so the Helminth carger should look like a warframe and not a grineer.

This is the future, they can do all sorts of genetic stuff then.

Now we can grow babies in woman from other people.

[arch111]

First. The original Plague was a wild and ravenous infection that was so severe that Tenno sometimes needed to "cleanse" infected allies with sharp blades.

By definition it infects and the infection turn the victim into one of the infected. It is called infestation because nanites "infest" it and twists it.

Infestation as a group was given by the Orokin. The fact it was present at Towerships hints at a intelligence since it was supposedly a biological warfrare. They were allso much more predatory and wildlooking. The ones of today are using clones, but the boilers and broods are from the Old War unless I am misstaken.

Second.

I disslike the chargermodel. Replace it with a new one please.

Third.

The cool thing here is that this, all of it, is a connectthe-dots game.

Orokin - biosoldiers- tenno - void - surrogates - warframes  - sentents - infestation - bioweapons - kuva - oro.

Its ALL connected. Think of how the Lorist felt another healer that was a warframe. Warfames are made from infested and can channel VOID. Sentients are made from biotechnology that are allergic to Void. Tenno were born in the Void and are immune to the infestations virus.

Placeholders or rush aside - this is a step to Umbra, and the biggest reveal of all.

[BornWithTeeth]

Just now, arch111 said:

 

Its ALL connected. Think of how the Lorist felt another healer that was a warframe. Warfames are made from infested and can channel VOID. Sentients are made from biotechnology that are allergic to Void. Tenno were born in the Void and are immune to the infestations virus.

Uh, no? A Lorist felt her sister, another Lorist.

 

Not saying that your whole post is necessarily wrong, just that one link is based on incorrect data.

[arch111]

12 minutes ago, BornWithTeeth said:

Uh, no? A Lorist felt her sister, another Lorist.

 

Not saying that your whole post is necessarily wrong, just that one link is based on incorrect data.

Actually the Lorist felt another presence ("Another healer?")that swooped down, slaughtered the entire wave of infested, saving the Orokins lives, and then bulletjumped out of there.

Question: How could she sense a warframe? 

Edited December 31, 2016 by arch111

[BornWithTeeth]

5 minutes ago, arch111 said:

Actually the Lorist felt another presence ("Another healer?")that swooped down, slaughtered the entire wave of infested, saving the Orokins lives, and then bulletjumped out of there.

Question: How could she sense a warframe? 

You raised an interesting point, so I went back to re-read the Synthesis entry. 

 

She felt the Warframe through the Lora device, the same way she felt literally every other living thing around her, the Infested, the other soldiers in the squad, the Dax commanding them. She didn't feel the Warframe because of a special underlying Infestation connection. She felt it through the Lora device, because she was a Lorist and she could feel all living organisms around her.

 

Like I said, the rest of your post is fine, but you're seeing a special connection between Lorists and Warframes which is not actually supported.

[IggySnow]

Wanting a charger does not justify the laziness of the product. They could have just as easily made a skin for kubrows, but instead they made an entirely new pet.

Since they made a whole new pet it needs to be held up to the standards of the other pets, which it doesn't in any way shape or form.

[arch111]

18 hours ago, TheChaotic1 said:

And then I felt it, a new presence, another healer? I’d felt this before, was it, it couldn’t be… I opened my eyes only to be blinded by an intense flash, followed by a crash, like a thousand crystal goblets all being shattered at once. All went silent, the Infested were dead. I felt nothing now.

This is what interests me. She knows this is a tenno/warframe. I think the Lora is a Voidinterface. And I think infested flesh is a carrier (conduit in Lore).

The Orokin made the Dax, they made the Lorists. They are not human but created.

[BornWithTeeth]

27 minutes ago, arch111 said:

This is what interests me. She knows this is a tenno/warframe. I think the Lora is a Voidinterface. And I think infested flesh is a carrier (conduit in Lore).

The Orokin made the Dax, they made the Lorists. They are not human but created.

Yes....and quote the rest of it.

 

"I closed my eyes and focused the device, through it I could feel each one of the bodyguards. A sergeant was slashed through the leg and I directed my energy toward him, his wound closed and he resumed fighting. Acid spit burned another soldier’s chest, I pushed energy to her, eased the pain, then reversed the damage, she would live. 

~~~~

I felt plasma beams burn the creatures and then I felt Remballa heal them. Why? Multiple connections now, I felt her many times over, it didn’t make sense, until it did; she was those things, all of them. They took our fire and kept coming. I felt her, no them, shudder as bullets ripped through flesh and then as flesh was made new again.

~~~ 

More rushed in. I felt the healing in them too."

 

The healer felt everything living around her, Warframe or not. It felt familiar because either she had encountered that Tenno before or because it incorporated similar technology to the Lora device, but insisting that there is some kind of special Infested connection between Lorists and Warframes is not supported there.
It is not ruled out! But it is not supported.

 

_{I am Captain Stop Having Fun With Assumptions.}

Edited December 31, 2016 by BornWithTeeth

[arch111]

41 minutes ago, BornWithTeeth said:

Yes....and quote the rest of it.

 

"I closed my eyes and focused the device, through it I could feel each one of the bodyguards. A sergeant was slashed through the leg and I directed my energy toward him, his wound closed and he resumed fighting. Acid spit burned another soldier’s chest, I pushed energy to her, eased the pain, then reversed the damage, she would live. 

~~~~

I felt plasma beams burn the creatures and then I felt Remballa heal them. Why? Multiple connections now, I felt her many times over, it didn’t make sense, until it did; she was those things, all of them. They took our fire and kept coming. I felt her, no them, shudder as bullets ripped through flesh and then as flesh was made new again.

~~~ 

More rushed in. I felt the healing in them too."

 

The healer felt everything living around her, Warframe or not. It felt familiar because either she had encountered that Tenno before or because it incorporated similar technology to the Lora device, but insisting that there is some kind of special Infested connection between Lorists and Warframes is not supported there.
It is not ruled out! But it is not supported.

 

_{I am Captain Stop Having Fun With Assumptions.}

Haha. You are right of course. My angle is and ever was, Technocyte.

It goes like this.

1. We are told the infested are loose. Insane and mad but seemingly capable of higher intelligence in greater numbers.

2. We are told a plague once destroyed Earth in a previous outbreak.

This is then backed by Synthesis imprints and from the Grove.

3. We use infested materials in our Foundry.

4. Infested speak to us as kin. 

5. We are told the Orokin made the infestation as a weapon.

6. We are told the infestation was studied by Archimedians.

7. Archimedians crafted Warframes from researching infested Earth amongst other things.

8. We are given a Infested warframe.

9. We are introducefd to a Infested servant.

10. The servant infests us and it in turn spawns a charger loyal to us.

11. The room in the Orbiter only opens for Nidus who is infested.

The next reveal will be about the warframes. That in turn will tell us what they are and how they were made.

The most important part is the fear of the Void Demon and how this factors in to all this. And of course, the simple fact the Tenno could and still can, intrface with infested creatured by default.

Rhino Prime Codex and golden Maw.

The Lorists as well as the Orokin Emperors are still mysterious to us. But where Void was something the Orokin failed to understand,  the biotechnology was the direct opposite. 

Forma and morhics were essential to Orokin construction and those contain Technocyte. 

So yeah, I still see the thread DE wants us to follow leading to the source of their power.

This latest pet is a hint of the future,  there is no reason for this reveal now unless it is part of their plan.

Maby Im just crazy.  But I am hoping the next reveal will be even bigger than Second Dream.

[Mak_Gohae]

3 hours ago, HerpDerpy said:

Wanting a charger does not justify the laziness of the product. They could have just as easily made a skin for kubrows, but instead they made an entirely new pet.

Since they made a whole new pet it needs to be held up to the standards of the other pets, which it doesn't in any way shape or form.

[Unus]

16 hours ago, rand0mname said:

I just do not understand, if a charger was an intended result, why bring kubrow into it? Finding a Greener corpse and slapping that pink thingy on it would make more sense ("we purge Infestation" aside). And kubrow animations and sounds look ridiculous on charger. Not horrifing or ugly cute - ridiculous.

For me, the difference in the work put in Nidus in all it's grotesque beauty and this thing is glaring. One was a child of love (metaphorically) and the other have an invisible sign on it: “We are tired and do not care”.

The mere idea of anyone in DE looking at this pet for longer then 10 seconds and saying that it's fine as it is... That's worrying.

 

   The kubrow egg was an interstitial "womb" of sorts. The egg was a safe development caseing and the Kubrow fetus within was to provide additional mass for growth. Simply put, it's parisiticism at it's finest. As for the hive mind shenanigans, my current theory is that, every so often and with time and distance, the hive mind will occasionally undergo minor fission and fracture off into another piece or multiple pieces. Usually, the main hive mind (The Phoroid Gestalt) devours or destroys these aberrations while they are immature and nonsentient and moves on with it's prolific unlife. Fortunately or unfortunately, shielded aboard our vessel and rendered an anonymous blip on the beast's communicative "R.A.D.A.R.", The Helminth mind has grown and developed, though lacking the biomass opportunities the Phoroid Gestalt has had, it seems to have been subsisting entirely on a ferric diet in it's time of captivity, judging by the state of the med-lab.

[IggySnow]

2 minutes ago, Mak_Gohae said:

that was a glitch, not a whole new kind of pet, and it was only cosmetic. whats your point?

[Mak_Gohae]

7 minutes ago, HerpDerpy said:

that was a glitch, not a whole new kind of pet, and it was only cosmetic. whats your point?

It had more requirements and everyone loved it.

[Unus]

11 hours ago, arch111 said:

Haha. You are right of course. My angle is and ever was, Technocyte.

It goes like this.

1. We are told the infested are loose. Insane and mad but seemingly capable of higher intelligence in greater numbers.

2. We are told a plague once destroyed Earth in a previous outbreak.

This is then backed by Synthesis imprints and from the Grove.

3. We use infested materials in our Foundry.

4. Infested speak to us as kin. 

5. We are told the Orokin made the infestation as a weapon.

6. We are told the infestation was studied by Archimedians.

7. Archimedians crafted Warframes from researching infested Earth amongst other things.

8. We are given a Infested warframe.

9. We are introducefd to a Infested servant.

10. The servant infests us and it in turn spawns a charger loyal to us.

11. The room in the Orbiter only opens for Nidus who is infested.

The next reveal will be about the warframes. That in turn will tell us what they are and how they were made.

The most important part is the fear of the Void Demon and how this factors in to all this. And of course, the simple fact the Tenno could and still can, intrface with infested creatured by default.

Rhino Prime Codex and golden Maw.

The Lorists as well as the Orokin Emperors are still mysterious to us. But where Void was something the Orokin failed to understand,  the biotechnology was the direct opposite. 

Forma and morhics were essential to Orokin construction and those contain Technocyte. 

So yeah, I still see the thread DE wants us to follow leading to the source of their power.

This latest pet is a hint of the future,  there is no reason for this reveal now unless it is part of their plan.

Maby Im just crazy.  But I am hoping the next reveal will be even bigger than Second Dream.

   Apologies, but, you have a single fact wrong here (yes, I'm no better then a grammer fascist, but, this would bother me till roughly to the end of time).

   Morphics are claytronic material not Infested matter. They may rub shoulders in the nanotechnology department, but one houses artificial intelligence, the other is "just" a metric butt-ton of millimeter sized computers crammed togethor.

 

Forma on the other hand is a macro-scale command computer for nanoscale technology. Just tap in what you want changed, chuck it into the forge, let the little flighty buggers eat it, then wait and fidget while they work.

Edited January 1, 2017 by Unus