HEMA Final Word - No Mutagen Drop or Cost change

[dashashou]

yea my clan gave up on getting the hema , and 90% of the clan  just went and decided to play other games  . the hema being the last straw in increasing rng +  rng  in rng rolling grind . 

[KaizergidorahXi]

56 minutes ago, Robolaser said:

Look, this exactly how DE and many f2p games developpers make money. They try to frustrate and upset their players as much as possible, not to the point they outright quit, but just enough for them to be tempted to give up and spend money. That's exactly the point.

Let me put the emphasis on this: the more you ask, the more they will think they can make money out of it. Because, again, obvious frustration.

If you think it's too much grind, don't do it. Don't ask endlessly. And don't spend money. Do not support or encourage this kind of practices. You won't get that weapon, but in the long run it's the best course of (in)action. Eventualy if no one seems to give a fu and no one spend money after warning them once, they will backtrack. It won't last, but that's the best you can expect in a game like this.

Except DE doesn't do that, really. Everything up until this point has been reasonably obtainable by a single person. It would be tough, but reasonable to get everything in the game by yourself. Except farming the Hema forces you into a group, and takes more effort than every other thing in the game combined, for a pretty much trash weapon. It's silly. Plus, not everyone has access to online play, For example, I live in university housing, and the router routinely blocks me from playing Public on Warframe at all, as well as trading outside of Earth Relay, or even meeting people in my Dojo at all, unless the campus decides to reset the router. This is due to the way Warframe online works, which is a problem within itself, as the router blocks no other online game. So there is pretty much a weapon that is unobtainable by anyone living in an area where they don't have physical access to the router. Unless you think farming 5,000 mutagen samples solo is reasonable?

[Robolaser]

1 hour ago, Jakorak said:

As someone in a super casual moon clan, with 400k mutagen to go after the initial resource dump from the whole clan, earning about 100 mutagen a day when i go to do some focus farming, this research won't be done by the time i've completed all 5 focus schools

This is why you and your friends there should look for a better one, if you really want hema (and the other grind intensive stuff that will inevitably show up in the future). Get real, even if DE lower the cost or raise the drop rate significantly, which is very unlikely, your current moon clan's activity will still be too low.

 

1 hour ago, ChuckMaverick said:

it hasn't been DE's way.

Even if it hasn't been, it's not their company anymore. Not since may 2016. While this is publicly available, disclosed information, i won't give more details here on this forum for obvious reasons. Just google it, find the .pdf files, and read a few articles from specialized press if they're a bit too abstruse.

Maybe i said too much already, i'm out :)

Edited January 18, 2017 by Robolaser

[KaizergidorahXi]

1 minute ago, Robolaser said:

This is why you and your friends there should look for a better one, if you really want hema (and the other grind intensive stuff that will inevitably show up in the future). Get real, even if DE multiplies the drop rate or divide the cost by 10, which is very unlikely, your current moon clan's activity will still be too low.

Why? Why should we leave the clan we possibly spent 1000k+ plat on building to get a single item that DE decided to horrendously jack up the price with? I built my entire Dojo by myself back when Forma were even rarer than prime parts. I'm not leaving all that work just to join a clan of people who exploit me or force me to pay plat just to get the BP. Plus, then I still won't have the research done, which is the main issue. I will likely want the next Bio Lab weapon, and it will likely use the Hema as a requirement.

[Robolaser]

Given your particular situation, it's not a viable solution indeed. Just get rid of the leeches and inactives and reduce your clan tier, or keep them and give up on grind intensive clan researches. You can't have both. Do you really think they will divide the cost by 10? Do you really think it's not a sign of things to come, or that a few hundred of angry/whiny posts will change anything to what was probably planned many months ago? Open your eyes dammit.

Edited January 18, 2017 by Robolaser

[Jakorak]

33 minutes ago, Robolaser said:

Given your particular situation, it's not a viable solution indeed. Just get rid of the leeches and inactives and reduce your clan tier, or keep them and give up on grind intensive clan researches. You can't have both. Do you really think they will divide the cost per 10? Do you really think it's not a sign of things to come, or that a few hundred of angry/whiny posts will change anything to what was probably planned many months ago? Did you read and did what i suggested above? Open your eyes dammit.

I mean we've had years of evidence of DE backing down on ludicrously stupid ideas every time they trip up and we throw a hissy fit and educate the devs on just how stupid they were soooooooo Chinese overlord conspiracies aside, who can blame us for sticking to the guns that have worked for 4 straight years: Pure concentrated shame

Edited January 18, 2017 by Jakorak

[DoomFruit]

6 minutes ago, Robolaser said:

Given your particular situation, it's not a viable solution indeed. Just get rid of the leeches and inactives and reduce your clan tier, or keep them and give up on grind intensive clan researches. You can't have both. Do you really think they will divide the cost per 10? Do you really think it's not a sign of things to come, or that a few hundred of angry/whiny posts will change anything to what was probably planned many months ago? Open your eyes dammit.

And what if you consider your clanmates to be friends? Friends don't kick friends out of their group because some beancounter set an arbitrary enormous price for a trash item. If the game turns from being fun into being another job, we abandon it and do something that is fun. We don't start ripping apart our groups of friends.

This sort of thing is already going on. Clans are disbanding, other clans are charging large entry fees simply because they have this piece of mastery fodder. Making the community more hostile is a stupid thing to do. They're basically killing the goose that lays the golden eggs - the only reason why Warframe got as large as it is now is from word of mouth. Spoil the players' opinion of the game, and you spoil your future.

Edited January 18, 2017 by DoomFruit
Misp'laced A'postrophe

[Ciaus]

15 minutes ago, Robolaser said:

Given your particular situation, it's not a viable solution indeed. Just get rid of the leeches and inactives and reduce your clan tier, or keep them and give up on grind intensive clan researches. You can't have both. Do you really think they will divide the cost by 10? Do you really think it's not a sign of things to come, or that a few hundred of angry/whiny posts will change anything to what was probably planned many months ago? Open your eyes dammit.

If you argue it is FINE to completely destroy the social clan structure of WF as a whole for clan research, your attitude is exactly the problem. It is exactly that thinking, that such repercussions are okay, that led to this. Because looking at the numbers of Hema purchased with plat on a chart as an isolated piece of data doesn't tell you jack about how mahy players are going to stop playing or recommending the game down the line after being kicked from clans for not being able to contribute mutagen. 

Also after previous things like Viver they DID make changes, why back down about something so ludicrous when things have been changed in the past? 
If you don't have customers who make such grievances apparent, you sink without knowing why. It's a necessary part of any media company model and you are ignoring that. 

And yes, I think you have said too much, for someone who clearly hasn't read or conceptualised ANY of the points made hundreds of times. 

[Naskoni]

I like how the ones telling others how to manage their clans, i.e. kick players, whip the remaining ones into becoming farmbots, downsize, etc. are seeminlgy all in solo ghost clans...

[Volinus7]

5 hours ago, Robolaser said:

Look, this exactly how DE and many f2p games developpers make money. They try to frustrate and upset their players as much as possible, not to the point they outright quit, but just enough for them to be tempted to give up and spend money. That's exactly the point.

Let me put the emphasis on this: the more you ask, the more they will think they can make money out of it. Because, again, obvious frustration.

If you think it's too much grind, don't do it. Don't ask endlessly. And don't spend money. Do not support or encourage this kind of practices. You won't get that weapon, but in the long run it's the best course of (in)action. Eventualy if no one seems to give a fu and no one spend money after warning them once, they will backtrack. It won't last, but that's the best you can expect in a game like this.

Don't like excessive grinding > keep quiet or quit > those who keep quiet get ignored because there's no voting > proportion of people who keep their mouth shut and grind without question grows more > grinding keeps increasing because it becomes harder and harder to frustrate the population > Idiocracy???

[Rawbeard]

seems to be really hard to increase droprate from 1 to 2. not even asking for 3. but doing 20 waves/min OD missions for a fabulous total of 30 samples with desecrate all over the place is not fun.

[Ciaus]

 

[Naskoni]

1 minute ago, Ciaus said:

 

I'm sure the Hema will receive a very "honourable" mention 

[Kotsender_Quasimir]

7 minutes ago, Ciaus said:

 

*drum roll*

btw. we got the hema research by now. i contacted my old in-/semiactive ghost clan mates and we just so managed to scratch together the neccessary mutagen samples with farming an additional 200 or so, which i soloed over the last few weeks. that means our clan is completely devoid of mutagen samples now, this was an "effort" split between 5 people, who all had hundreds to thousands of hours playtime.

finally i'm in the position to say: i don't feel like being "honored". fix this insanity asap!

also: if anyone wants an inv for the bp just drop me a pm.

[Kotsender_Quasimir]

6 minutes ago, Naskoni said:

I'm sure the Hema will receive a very "honourable" mention 

in b4: "yeah y'know these last few weeks since the last devstream even more clans managed to get this done, so now we REALLY can't do anything anymore, can we? oops..."

[Naskoni]

6 minutes ago, Kotsender_Quasimir said:

in b4: "yeah y'know these last few weeks since the last devstream even more clans managed to get this done, so now we REALLY can't do anything anymore, can we? oops..."

"...and infact SO many clans managed to research it, taking us by surprise, that we actually decided to double the amount of necessary mutagen samples for the console release of the Nidus quest"

Edited January 19, 2017 by Naskoni

[Littlerift]

At this point, given that many people have already researched the Hema, I don't think DE should change the research cost. Instead, they should look into ways to increase the acquisition rate of Mutagen Samples and the other faction resources. That's the only fair way to settle the issue at this time; refunds sound nice, but they would have to be refunded to the Vault which would effectively solve nothing because having thousands of Mutagen Samples in your Vault is the same as not having them at all at this time.

Edited January 19, 2017 by Littlerift

[Naskoni]

1 minute ago, Littlerift said:

At this point, given that many people have already researched the Hema, I don't think DE should change the research cost. Instead, they should look into ways to increase the acquisition rate of Mutagen Samples and the other faction resources. That's the only fair way to settle the issue at this time; refunds sound nice, but they would have to be refunded to the Vault which would effectively solve nothing because having thousands of Mutagen Samples in your Vault is the same as not having them at all at this time.

Oh, yeah, and how "many" people is that exactly? Unless by "research" you mean "bought with plat"?

[Buff00n]

I've been quiet on this for a while but I feel the need to vent again.

It's worth keeping up the pressure on the Mutagen Sample issue because this is a pain that will never go away.  Not only do many current casual and inactive clans have a problem, but every new clan created in the future will have to deal with it if they want to claim 100% research complete some day.  It restricts what purposes a clan can serve and still have access to all research.

Knux, Wukong, Javlok, etc. have all been at least somewhat manageable.  With the exception of Nitain, all of their bottleneck resource requirements were passively farmable through regular star chart play.  But with the Hema, Mutagen Mass is only practically accessible through key-locked Derelict nodes.  Eris is not an option because it's a rare drop there.  I can't even run an extractor to keep myself in stock.  And since Specters of the Rail, Derelict nodes have very little reason to run them after you've gotten a full set of corrupted mods, and no compelling reason to run the endless nodes.  Add to that the fact that the actual numerical jump was about an order of magnitude more than any previous resource jump, and this is the first clan requirement that really demands hardcore farming.

I'm very lucky.  I ran a ton of ODD and ODS back in the day when they dropped prime parts.  With about 2k in-game hours I was only about 700 short of being able to fund my solo ghost clan  Which I have now done, thanks to hardcore farming.  But most other players, especially new players, are well and truly boned.  This is a pain that will never go away, and a thread that will never stop being created over and over again.

Assuming that changing number itself is off the table, then I think the best solution is to just change the Mutagen Sample drop rate on Eris from rare to uncommon, so it matches the Derelict drop rate.  Do that and, over time, players' access to Mutagen Samples will get closer to parity with Fieldron Samples and Detonite Ampules.  Having Mutagen Samples also drop from dark sector nodes on every planet would be a great stretch goal, as this would help make up for the fact that there's still only one star chart planet dropping them.  It's not a fast solution, but over the long term it's the simplest and makes the most sense.

Edited January 19, 2017 by Buff00n
I can typing

[Littlerift]

13 minutes ago, Naskoni said:

Oh, yeah, and how "many" people is that exactly? Unless by "research" you mean "bought with plat"?

 

I don't know how many, but any who have are going to be immensely frustrated if all of the work is thrown away by a cost reduction. Hence why I think the best way to fix the issue is to increase either the drop rate or the drop amount for Mutagen Samples. This way the Hema becomes far more accessible but the effort of those who have undertaken the immense grind to unlock the Hema already won't have their work invalidated. This is all assuming that DE can't introduce a foolproof system that refunds Clan resources to the person who contributed them, which is theoretically possible but unlikely given the Void Key -> Relic debacle.

[Naskoni]

4 minutes ago, Littlerift said:

 

I don't know how many, but any who have are going to be immensely frustrated if all of the work is thrown away by a cost reduction. Hence why I think the best way to fix the issue is to increase either the drop rate or the drop amount for Mutagen Samples. This way the Hema becomes far more accessible but the effort of those who have undertaken the immense grind to unlock the Hema already won't have their work invalidated. This is all assuming that DE can't introduce a foolproof system that refunds Clan resources to the person who contributed them, which is theoretically possible but unlikely given the Void Key -> Relic debacle.

So you have no idea how many that is, nor have farmed the Hema yourself to know what that is either. Well, as someone that has farmed quite a bit of a mutagen samples after the release of the Nidus quest (check my earlier screenshot) I can tell you that the cost is BS and that I am not going to be "immensely frustrated" if they get rid of that stupid grindfest, nor do I feel particularly "honoured" for having as many mutagen samples. Don't speak on other people's behalf.

[Kotsender_Quasimir]

19 minutes ago, Littlerift said:

I don't know how many, but any who have are going to be immensely frustrated if all of the work is thrown away by a cost reduction.

i wouldn't be frustrated at all. and quite alot of people who did the research already said the same. the cost is the problem / "mistake" as steve himself put it. just reduce it. the end.

edit: a rise of mutagen drops would effecitvely do the same anyway, all the while screwing up the mutagen / research ratio (for everything BUT the hema) completely. just reduce the cost and fix eris drop tables.

Edited January 19, 2017 by Kotsender_Quasimir

[Littlerift]

15 minutes ago, Naskoni said:

So you have no idea how many that is, nor have farmed the Hema yourself to know what that is either. Well, as someone that has farmed quite a bit of a mutagen samples after the release of the Nidus quest (check my earlier screenshot) I can tell you that the cost is BS and that I am not going to be "immensely frustrated" if they get rid of that stupid grindfest, nor do I feel particularly "honoured" for having as many mutagen samples. Don't speak on other people's behalf.

 

I haven't once said that the cost isn't BS, and I also explicitly stated that I think if DE could implement a refund system that worked perfectly then a reduction in the cost would be preferably. However, I don't think that's likely to happen, and as such we have to consider that if DE suddenly reduce the cost then those who have already researched the Hema are going to have basically lost value. Also, reducing the cost now will also raise the spectre of real-world refunds, as it's quite possible that some people have purchased some amount of Mutagen Samples using Platinum in order to unlock the Hema. Oh, and for the record, I have been grinding for Mutagen Samples.

You say "don't speak for other people", and yet you wave off the concern that some number of people might be annoyed if DE reduce the price at this time based on the fact that you yourself wouldn't be frustrated.

If DE want to just reduce the price then fine, I shalln't complain one bit. But if they aren't going to reduce the cost then it's worth suggesting other potential ways to ameliorate the problem.

Edited January 19, 2017 by Littlerift
Edited for politeness's sake

[ChuckMaverick]

2 hours ago, Littlerift said:

Also, reducing the cost now will also raise the spectre of real-world refunds, as it's quite possible that some people have purchased some amount of Mutagen Samples using Platinum in order to unlock the Hema. Oh, and for the record, I have been grinding for Mutagen Samples.

Mutagen Samples aren't available in the market, you can't buy them with plat.

Even if you could, it still wouldn't entitle anyone to a 'real-world refund'. You buy plat with RL cash, as long as you got the plat then you're not entitled to a refund, what you do with that plat is your own business.

[-Akeva-Banshee-]

After Valkitty was released I made a vow not to buy plat or a PA Until it came out unless it was to help my friends in this game. Although I have observed this vow these broken Hema costs have changed that to no longer pay any money to this game at all. I now sell the fruits of my farming on trade chat to get the plat I need. And when Banshee Prime comes out my money will go elsewhere. Congrats DE I have lost faith in your decision making and no longer try to recruit other people to play this game.