HEMA Final Word - No Mutagen Drop or Cost change

[Ciaus]

3 hours ago, Darksouls40k said:

You ppl are so focused on the research cost u dont see the obvious... This whole high cost on research is just bad design, if u want a fair system its very simple u put the weight on production cost instead of research... Endgame players will still need to meet the requirements DE wants them to farm ....

Agreed. 
If it were 500 mutagen samples to build, it'd still be timewalled for many many players, BUT IN A FAIR MANNER that didn't punish social / solo / temp inactive / newbie helping / just generally large clans.

[DrFail]

5 hours ago, DoomFruit said:

If decreasing the hema costs "devalues the effort" of a bunch of idiots grinding their arses off for what is quite frankly a massively unreasonable research cost, increasing the drop rate would devalue all the other mutagen sample-requiring items - pretty much all of which are superior to the hema anyway.

 

Upping the resource drop will, ironically, devalue the effort a bunch of people put into grinding the Hema as well in pretty much the exact same way as lowering the cost would. While also, like you said, creating more stockpiling of the resource that further devalues other things that used it. But the thing is, I doubt most of the playerbase would even actually actively care if the prior grinding for the Hema was devalued. (Perhaps the handfull of skinner clans that have developed would lament the loss of plat income, but their opinion not holding much weight should be obvious.) The vocal playerbase didn't as a whole care particularly strongly when Zephyr's grinding effort was invalidated by oxium's massive drop boost, and they didn't particularly care when Vaubon Prime's costs were reduced. The community for the most part seems to value things going down in price, as is natural.

Edited January 12, 2017 by DrFail

[notlamprey]

8 minutes ago, DrFail said:

 

Upping the resource drop will, ironically, devalue the effort a bunch of people put into grinding the Hema as well in pretty much the exact same way as lowering the cost would. While also, like you said, creating more stockpiling of the resource that further devalues other things that used it. But the thing is, I doubt most of the playerbase would even actually actively care if the prior grinding was devalued. (Perhaps the handfull of skinner clans that have developed would lament the loss of plat income, but their opinion not holding much weight should be obvious.) The vocal playerbase didn't as a whole care particularly strongly when Zephyr's grinding effort was invalidated by oxium's massive drop boost, and they didn't particularly care when Vaubon Prime's costs were reduced. The community for the most part seems to value things going down in price, as is natural.

That argument of "we want to respect the hard work" completely falls apart when you consider the fact that these excessive item costs totally wreck the value of all our previous playtime.

If DE are committed to basing future costs on "average player stockpiles," then none of our playtime is ever worth anything. DE's argument is silly.

[ChuckMaverick]

"Devaluing effort" should never be used as a justification for not balancing something.

Balance is essential for the health of a game, and to avoid introducing perverse incentives.

[ShiraHagane]

Guys, stop saying that devaluing effort is a bad reason, we know it's a bad reason, DE knows it's a bad reason, the people who put in the effort know it's a bad reason, it's just DE making you grind 24/7 in the most efficient manner or pay plat.

Here's some constructive feedback, if you want people to believe that DE listens to their players, you should listen to your players.

[Ikusias]

Main problem about Hema is [DE] Steve's and DE as a whole attitude with their obstinate refusal in admitting they are wrong.

They damaged the community as a whole and made clans far more toxic than before, instead of searching more reasonable ways of making new weapons research not trivial.

This post offers very good alternatives to what DE is obstinately trying to do.

 

[Slaviar]

If DE really don't want to stockpile they should provide some decent sinks. Right now there's no sink for most resources. Only thing close to it are restores but how many of them am I supposed to craft? I have over 200 (highest amount one can bring to mission) of every type and just as many ciphers and air support charges.

Also, if devs are against stockpiles why double resource weekends happened? Everyone I know farmed to stockpile as much as possible, often buying both boosters to gather even more.

[Vermitore]

9 minutes ago, Ikusias said:

Main problem about Hema is [DE] Steve's and DE as a whole attitude with their obstinate refusal in admitting they are wrong.

They damaged the community as a whole and made clans far more toxic than before, instead of searching more reasonable ways of making new weapons research not trivial.

This post offers very good alternatives to what DE is obstinately trying to do.

 

I completely disagree. They made clan membership more a matter of competition and they encouraged clans to co-operate in fulfilment of an auxiliary objective, which yields a passable albeit not stellar but fun weapon. At least now Moon clans won't be an extension of general chat and they'll start removing people who do not in any way partake in working towards the improvement of the clan.

[Ikusias]

So its "sane" that clans are actively kicking players, downsizing and pretending platinum or materials "donations" before letting people join?

That a research cost is 20 times over what is needed to research an entire tech three for a weapon that is mediocre?

That research costs are now calibrated on what is in our inventories instead of the actual "worth" of a blueprint?

That every time development should choose between "cheap and fast" or "done right and requiring actual effort" they take the cheap route making the end product progressively worse? (Not forgetting the pile of unresolved problems, bugs and whatnot that's still going unaddressed)

This is not the game I joined anymore, we were promised a year of quality in 2015, things instead only went downhill from there.

Pardon me if I disagree with you but I don't see DE current direction in development of the game or management of its community as something I'm willing to endorse anymore.

[Ninjamurai]

I seriously would just prefer that they lowered the cost of the research. Doubling drop-rates so that Orokin Derelict drops them at a reasonable pace, and so that Eris will finally drop them *at all* seems so contrived. Especially since that would just make it so every other research project would be finished very quickly. I mean seriously, this was a bad idea from the start. Why did DE bother making an item that almost completely destroyed balance in every way? The only way to get past this craziness is to ignore it completely, grind the hell out of Oroking Derelict, or buy buy buy.

I played 2 hours of Akkad on Eris. I was a Pilfering Swarm Hydroid and we had a Nekros. At the end of those 2 hours I only got *one* mutagen sample. Why is Mutagen everything so bizarrely rare? It never really even makes up for it with power or anything, it's just rare for the sake of being rare. Nidus is the only infested thing in the game that *might* be worth grinding for, and even then a lot of that grind is bizarrely long and menial as well.

I get that DE is doing their best, but when it comes to something like the Hema's outrageous cost I don't get why they are taking their time with it. The longer we wait for it to get fixed the more excuses ("Some players did it already, therefore it's fine") and the more problems arise from such terrible decisions. There's so many ways that this could be fixed to be OK, but none of them are being taken yet. Make mutagen samples show up in more places than Orokin Derelict, along with a decent drop-rate. Make things that have reasonable research costs, 50-100 was fine. Make more double mutagen mass invasions show up, or just let us get 3 mutagen masses at once like every other faction resource thing!

Everything to do with mutagen in Warframe is unbalanced. Things are mostly fine in the Corpus & Grineer labs, but then all sorts of issues arise when it comes to the Infestation lab. I don't get why it is like this.

[Vermitore]

4 minutes ago, Ikusias said:

So its "sane" that clans are actively kicking players, downsizing and pretending platinum or materials "donations" before letting people join?

That a research cost is 20 times over what is needed to research an entire tech three for a weapon that is mediocre?

That research costs are now calibrated on what is in our inventories instead of the actual "worth" of a blueprint?

That every time development should choose between "cheap and fast" or "done right and requiring actual effort" they take the cheap route making the end product progressively worse? (Not forgetting the pile of unresolved problems, bugs and whatnot that's still going unaddressed)

This is not the game I joined anymore, we were promised a year of quality in 2015, things instead only went downhill from there.

Pardon me if I disagree with you but I don't see DE current direction in development of the game or management of its community as something I'm willing to endorse anymore.

Some of the most competitive, most powerful weapons are also rather easy to acquire. If you want the Hema for whatever reason, even though it's merely a passable weapon, I guess you'll have to put in more effort than you ordinarily would. If you want to be part of clan that has researching the Hema at the forefront of its objectives, you'll have to contribute to the collective effort.

I think the previous year was feature rich, albeit failing wholly to address the need for some kind of end-game or high level activity, but that's the only shortcoming of it, in my opinion. Most of the best weapons in the game, you can get without undue effort or time expenditure.

[Siekier]

So, update 19.6 is here.

 

Is the research cost lowered? Nope.

Is the drop rate for Mutagen Samples increased? Nope

 

Is the 180 page thread regarding the issue locked? Yes it is.

 

Great work, instead of fixing the situation the devs decided to bury their heads in sand.

You think it's going to work? You think that players will forget this whole fiasco and buy Hema with plat or grind for it for hours and hours?

 

Once again I am disappointed by Digital Extremes. But I also can't say I'm surprised.

[Kotsender_Quasimir]

35 minutes ago, Ninjamurai said:

I don't get why it is like this.

 

35 minutes ago, Ninjamurai said:

The only way to get past this craziness is to ignore it completely, grind the hell out of Oroking Derelict, or buy buy buy.

 

[rudman88]

I find that some of the arguement are weak.

 

1. It is not healthy to keep too many inactive member in a clan

-> you are promoting lazy players

-> the scaling is done to make sure every1 in your clan contribute or else the huge clan will have too much advantage.

 

2. Why in the world you join a clan that need you to donate plat ? there are hundreds / maybe thousands of clan to choose from

 

3. You can only help the newbie in your clan by lvling up their gear ( frame, weapon and mods )

to do so, you still need to go def / survival / excavation mission

-> unless your clan specialize in spy / sabotage mission ( then nothing else i can say )

-> take it as helping the newbies.

-> by the time you reach wave 20, you at least have 8 or 16 ( with nek / hydoid ) or 24 ( nek + hydroid  ) or more ? Is not that hard

= 24 with farming frames each of you.

-> we have like at least 20 frame now and 200 weapon at least = thats alot of time to spend LOL

 

4. Mutagen sampel 5000 is excessive ( way too much actually )

-> is much higher at least 80 times than the previous bio weapon

-> kindly dont put resources that only drop 1 or 2 for that figure please ( it is crazy)

but is doable

 

5. pay to win / DE pay check

-> This is weak

-> you still can obtain it but it takes time

-> you can choose to be efficient ( cull your lazy as clan member )

OR struggle to cover their weakness / laziness

-> this is not a must OP weapon to get. Is just another weapon out of few hundred you can use

 

So now you have to make a choice

1. Take your time building it -> no point to rush there is no special award to be the first to built it

2. Join a clan that have it ( I you want to short cut )

3. Cull your member until it reach 50% or more efficiency ( if they become active back you can always kick 1 lazy guy for this guy )

4. buy it with plat ( SERIOUSLY NOT WORTH IT )

5. Cover your clan weakness ( start farming and be a man )

 

[Kotsender_Quasimir]

23 minutes ago, Siekier said:

You think it's going to work? You think that players will forget this whole fiasco and buy Hema with plat or grind for it for hours and hours?

i'm afraid it already did...

 

[Ninjamurai]

8 minutes ago, Kotsender_Quasimir said:

 

 

Hehe, of course that's the thing. But I feel like DE can make us *want* to buy something while also making sure we are happy. I feel one of the biggest reasons people are rioting over this cost is simply because the Hema is an average, non-amazing weapon. If instead a better item was locked behind 5000 mutagen samples (Say a cool new infested Ship, like an Infested Liset) then people would understand the high cost & either buy or grind fairly happily.

But as it is now, none of it makes sense. The weapon is *only* worth buying because it's near unobtainable to many newer players, despite the gun not being worth buying in the first place. This is what the problem boils down to (In my opinion) The gun is not *worth* buying, and is near unobtainable otherwise.

DE, please. I don't care if we have to grind, or are forced to buy, or whatever. When it comes down to it, these things are fine. As long as there is a *worth* to it in the end. Hema is only *worth* it if you put a lot of effort into making it powerful. Compare this to a Tigris which is extremely powerful with little to no effort, and little to no cost comparatively.

As long as there is *balance* in the grind, in the worth of the things we grind for, then it will be fine. The Hema fiasco has no balance. A weapon greatly overpriced (In research) that requires resources that are greatly too much rare. It's too much bad being put into one area, at least spread it out.

Edited January 12, 2017 by Ninjamurai

[Vermitore]

Ok, I think I have had a major epiphany.

Imagine that DE releases a new infested Syandana that looks average and you don't really need it. Now imagine that you need a lot of Mutagen Samples to acquire it. That's precisely the position the Hema is in. It's only advantage over most of its high-tier competition is aesthetic. Think of it as an ornamental item and that's that. Done. Was it really that hard?

[ArbitUHM]

It seems pretty obvious to me that when DE talks about honoring the players that have already researched the Hema, they're not talking about the literal sum of Mutagen Samples they spent. Yes, that would be easy to refund. Instead, they're talking about the time and effort that went into farming them, and as far as I know DE isn't capable of turning back the wheel of time, so refunds aren't really an option there.

Seeing people bat around the same strawman over and over and congratulating each other on what a great job they're doing at demolishing that strawman is kind of annoying to see.

^^ @Vermitore A concern is that future research projects might use the Hema as a prereq. Given the rate they release clantech is ridiculously slow, it's not that pressing of a concern IMO, but it is a concern.

Edited January 12, 2017 by ArbitUHM

[Flirk2]

54 minutes ago, Vermitore said:

Ok, I think I have had a major epiphany.

Imagine that DE releases a new infested Syandana that looks average and you don't really need it. Now imagine that you need a lot of Mutagen Samples to acquire it. That's precisely the position the Hema is in. It's only advantage over most of its high-tier competition is aesthetic. Think of it as an ornamental item and that's that. Done. Was it really that hard?

You still don't understand it, do you?

Your example has a major flaw in it. There are no cosmetic items you can research in the dojo. If such an item was added with that kind of price there wouldn't be a tenth of this reaction.

The weapon research though, has a reasonable pricing until you get to Hema. And then it's going off the chart. And when I say off the chart I mean it. Do you know how bio lab looks like in mutagen samples now?

It's like this:

Totally reasonable.

 

7 minutes ago, Xiusa said:

What I learned from this thread is everyone wants the new things without actually needing to put any semblance of effort into it, but if you disagree you're trolling or some other inane argument takes place

Oh. That's just precious. For years the 65 mutagen sample maximum was deemed as enough effort.

Now 5k is ''any semblance''.

 

Edited January 12, 2017 by Flirk2

[Xiusa]

What I learned from this thread is everyone wants the new things without actually needing to put any semblance of effort into it, but if you disagree you're trolling or some other inane argument takes place

[Naskoni]

2 minutes ago, Xiusa said:

What I learned from this thread is everyone wants the new things without actually needing to put any semblance of effort into it, but if you disagree you're trolling or some other inane argument takes place

What I learned from your post is that you didn't even begin to read what's posted in this thread.

[Xiusa]

Just now, Naskoni said:

What I learned from your post is that you didn't even begin to read what's posted in this thread.

Alright

[Vermitore]

1 minute ago, Naskoni said:

What I learned from your post is that you didn't even begin to read what's posted in this thread.

What I learned from your post is that you responded on a purely instinctive basis, without weighing the persuasiveness of the remark which you responded to.

[Nirrel]

1 hour ago, Xiusa said:

What I learned from this thread is everyone wants the new things without actually needing to put any semblance of effort into it, but if you disagree you're trolling or some other inane argument takes place

What I learned is that people totally fine with the grind but not with such an eccesive one...Wich is not only their opinion because DE admitted that it was a mistake and the only reason they gave not lowering the cost is that some people already farmed it out. So that some ppl still find the requierment perfectly fine and going around calling other ppl lazy seems a bit trollish IMHO.

Edited January 12, 2017 by Nirrel

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

1 hour ago, Flirk2 said:

You still don't understand it, do you?

Your example has a major flaw in it. There are no cosmetic items you can research in the dojo. If such an item was added with that kind of price there wouldn't be a tenth of this reaction.

The weapon research though, has a reasonable pricing until you get to Hema. And then it's going off the chart. And when I say off the chart I mean it. Do you know how bio lab looks like in mutagen samples now?

It's like this:

Totally reasonable.

 

Oh. That's just precious. For years the 65 mutagen sample maximum was deemed as enough effort.

Now 5k is ''any semblance''.

 

Sometimes to get your point across, pop up pictures and visuals are completely necessary. I literally lol'd