HEMA Final Word - No Mutagen Drop or Cost change

[Gamma745]

3 minutes ago, Almagnus1 said:

Let's do the math the math on expected average contribution for a Ghost clan from a solo to max size clan, shall we?

Clan Size	Samples/Player
1	5000
2	2500
3	1667
4	1250
5	1000
6	833
7	714
8	625
9	556
10	500

The above shows why many of us looked at the Hema and went "oh hell no", because most people in the larger clans assume that there's more active players in the Ghost clans than there probably are.  For my clan, we had 4 active players and 2 others that were there whenever - which essentially means the four of us have to grind out 1250 samples each.  Thanks to RL and one of us having a kid, that means it's now effectively 3, and we'd have to collect 1667 each.  During the school semesters (which is relevant because Hema was released prior to the start of the semester, and we're at the semester's end) that means my clan's effective size dropped to 2 - so two of us would have to farm out 2500 samples.

Yeah, that calculation was already called out since Hema release as absurd and unrealistic. Not every clan has 100% capacity and/or contribution, hence the reason why most people just said, "Forget it. Not bothering with that." I think my clan already had the same sentiment without saying anything to each other.

 

5 minutes ago, Almagnus1 said:

IMO the entire resource collection system needs some way for players to convert resources to either credits and/or endo (so we can bleed off our excessive amounts of resources), because that would keep things sane as the problem isn't the collection of stuff, it's that we've got almost nothing to do with said stuff so it piles up to absurd levels.

Well, some people have asked that. And I heard DE planned for a project to rebuild the destroyed Relays, which will require massive amount of resources from the community. It's not a constant sink, but it's a nice start.

[Ditto132]

On 2017-5-6 at 9:12 AM, Tyrian3k said:

~1% chance is what it has always been from my experience. The problem with RNG is that you can never be sure that it's broken, even if you think you have a lot of data.

Hard to be sure become it is designed to be "Random". But with more data, the results should converge to some value that would tell you something about it.

On 2017-5-6 at 9:12 AM, Tyrian3k said:

I'm saying this because I had a little frustration farming Lith V3 relics recently.

Here's the loot I got  from doing 10 waves on Spear on Mars repeatedly in chronological order (Note that I had already done ~20 runs without success before I started screenshotting my loot to make sure I'm not going crazy):

  Reveal hidden contents

Took over 50 runs before I saw my first V3 relic, which has a 1/11 chance of dropping from any roll on rotation A. The chance of 50 runs (100 rolls) in a row without any V3s is (10/11)^100=0,0073%, so you might understand why I was getting a teensy suspicious at the lack of drops.

At the end of the day I still think that I simply got extremely unlucky.

From your screenshots, this is what I have for you.

[Ditto132]

On 2017-5-11 at 0:06 AM, ViS4GE said:

I still don't see point to this wall of text. Seems to me like you are trying to be right about something, so you cling to the smallest things. Let me say it one more time, you are complaining for half year. After that much time most people won't care about your "data", because they are tired of it.

Because it is not yet been half a year old. You don't see the point probably because you refusing to see the implications, just like how you don't see the points about people advocating the reduction of the Hema research cost.
People are tired of it, not because they don't care about data, but more of the lack of responses/actions from DE.

On 2017-5-11 at 0:06 AM, ViS4GE said:

There is resonable and there's "I wan't to get everything without effort", which isn't resonable at all. 

I don't know why you keep insisting on "I wan't to get everything without effort" when people are posting reasonable resolutions for the problem.
Or that you find that it is reasonable for players to deal with the absurd grind due to DE's mistake.
Btw, you spelt "reasonable" wrongly.

On 2017-5-11 at 0:06 AM, ViS4GE said:

It's almost like Javlok and Ferrox were never designed to be harder to get. But hey, everything needs to stay at no effort level because that's how it used to be, right ?

Really? Never designed to be harder to get?
http://www.tennoclocknews.com/analysis-of-resource-costs/

[Ditto132]

12 hours ago, BloodForTheBloodGods said:

From what I can see from the Octavia Neuroptics drop rate in... you'll have enough mutagen samples by the time you finish farming that.

See guys, DE does care about this issue.

Except that I already gotten 2 spare Octavia Neuroptics after crafting Octavia, and yet to obtain 500 Mutagen Samples. Needless to said, 5,000 for solo clan.

4 hours ago, Almagnus1 said:

IMO the entire resource collection system needs some way for players to convert resources to either credits and/or endo (so we can bleed off our excessive amounts of resources), because that would keep things sane as the problem isn't the collection of stuff, it's that we've got almost nothing to do with said stuff so it piles up to absurd levels.

Do people even realize the amount of Nano Spores players would obtain from farming Mutagen Samples...

On 2017-5-4 at 5:48 PM, Ditto132 said:

We would get around from ~2.5M to ~6M Nano Spores for 5,000 Mutagen Samples.

Hmm... wonder how much Nano Spores would you have if you factored in both booster with meta squad...
With just one booster and no loot frame on solo, could yield 6M Nano Spores for 5,000 Mutagen Samples. LOL.

[kaliazane]

49 minutes ago, Ditto132 said:

Because it is not yet been half a year old. You don't see the point probably because you refusing to see the implications, just like how you don't see the points about people advocating the reduction of the Hema research cost.
People are tired of it, not because they don't care about data, but more of the lack of responses/actions from DE.

I see the point actually, you are attempting to stray away from the fact that you weren't able to convince anyone even after half year. You refused to acknowledge clear No given out by DE multiple times and keep beating dead horse.

You got multiple responses from DE, but you ignored them because they don't fit your agenda.

49 minutes ago, Ditto132 said:

I don't know why you keep insisting on "I wan't to get everything without effort" when people are posting reasonable resolutions for the problem.
Or that you find that it is reasonable for players to deal with the absurd grind due to DE's mistake.
Btw, you spelt "reasonable" wrongly.

There is no problem and I do remember guy attempting to balance it around solo grinders playing on wrong node. Oh my, I made one spelling mistake, you got me now. That falls in line with your not exactly half year rant and proves my point from earlier. You just don't know what to say at this point, so you cling to spelling mistakes.

49 minutes ago, Ditto132 said:

Really? Never designed to be harder to get?
http://www.tennoclocknews.com/analysis-of-resource-costs/

Yes really, to the point of 1 person researching everything on new account effortlessly at that. Hema was first real upgrade. Now imagine actual 5-10 people in that clan.

9 hours ago, Gamma745 said:

Yes, since he is an active player who can play everyday. Those who can't play everyday should never get Hema research finished, am I right?

They did tho, anyone who wanted got it after half year.

 

[Volinus7]

On 12 พฤษภาคม 2560 at 7:50 AM, ViS4GE said:

There was a post of someone who created new account and effortlessly researched everything exept Hema. That's solo researching almost everything, in a clan that should have 10 people.

Someone is 1 person.

On 12 พฤษภาคม 2560 at 9:19 AM, Gamma745 said:

Yes, since he is an active player who can play everyday. Those who can't play everyday should never get Hema research finished, am I right?

He is 1 person.

On 12 พฤษภาคม 2560 at 6:37 PM, ViS4GE said:

They did tho, anyone who wanted got it after half year.

 

Suddenly he became they lol. Did he clone himself?

You talked about a person created a new account and did solo researching, then suddenly "they" emerged from the same line of quotes. Non sequitur?

Edited May 13, 2017 by Volinus7

[kaliazane]

4 minutes ago, Volinus7 said:

Someone is 1 person.

I did too, so that's 2 ?

4 minutes ago, Volinus7 said:

He is 1 person.

Now imagine 10 people in that clan.

4 minutes ago, Volinus7 said:

Suddenly he became they lol. Did he clone himself?

It's his clan, where hes not alone. As in they, people in that clan complicated I know.

[Almagnus1]

Quote

You got multiple responses from DE, but you ignored them because they don't fit your agenda.

Or maybe we think DE has screwed up on this, and we won't stop until they correct their mistake.....

Hema would have been fine as is if it was an event goal, because that provides enough other bonuses that comes with getting Hema that my clan would have just ground it out and this thread wouldn't exist - especially if they did the same thing like what they did with Ignis Wraith where the BP is tradeable so just about anyone can acquire it.

However, that didn't happen and Hema didn't have it's cost reduced - which also further supports the point that Warframe really needs a resource sink because we just have too many resources.

Edited May 12, 2017 by Almagnus1

[Gamma745]

18 hours ago, ViS4GE said:

I did too, so that's 2 ?

Now imagine 10 people in that clan.

It's his clan, where hes not alone. As in they, people in that clan complicated I know.

Yeah, the same argument, "Get a full active clan or rot".

[Ditto132]

On 2017-5-12 at 7:37 PM, ViS4GE said:

I see the point actually, you are attempting to stray away from the fact that you weren't able to convince anyone even after half year. You refused to acknowledge clear No given out by DE multiple times and keep beating dead horse.

You got multiple responses from DE, but you ignored them because they don't fit your agenda.

You referring to these responses?

• Claiming that most players already got the resources, and if not, suggesting farming with meta setup(when DE previously against meta farming and loot caves)
• Admitting it was a mistake and considering fixing it
• Didn't bother fixing it(in order to honor those who did it) and claimed "its raining Mutagen Samples"

 

On 2017-5-12 at 7:37 PM, ViS4GE said:

There is no problem and I do remember guy attempting to balance it around solo grinders playing on wrong node. Oh my, I made one spelling mistake, you got me now. That falls in line with your not exactly half year rant and proves my point from earlier. You just don't know what to say at this point, so you cling to spelling mistakes.

There is no problem when it was a mistake and DE refuses to do anything about it?
And why you talking about a particular guy attempting to balance it around solo grinders playing on wrong node? When there are players that are farming in the correct/recommended node?

What is wrong with pointing out any mistakes? People do make mistakes, pointing out so that we can learn from them and avoid them in the future.
 

On 2017-5-12 at 7:37 PM, ViS4GE said:

Yes really, to the point of 1 person researching everything on new account effortlessly at that. Hema was first real upgrade. Now imagine actual 5-10 people in that clan.

Effortlessly...

On 2017-4-8 at 2:45 AM, Flirk2 said:

As it is, you need to spend quite a bit of time if you were to fund the research even without the Hema.

''Right away'' that you are talking about is in the 2 - 3 months of playing almost exclusively towards research. Forma gear? Forget it. Every room in the dojo needs a forma.

Build stuff just to get MR points? Not for a solo ghost clan. MR 12 is what you are aiming for. Everything else resource wise will go for building dojo and research.

Hema was not the first real upgrade, Javlok was.
Right... balancing based on optimal participation...
Did you even read the article?
 

On 2017-5-12 at 7:37 PM, ViS4GE said:

They did tho, anyone who wanted got it after half year.

 

Have you seen the 3rd comment? Also I posted my response in the 2nd page.
There are players who done the grind and also against it, and some offering Hema for free...

 

[Ditto132]

On 2017-5-13 at 3:18 AM, Almagnus1 said:

Or maybe we think DE has screwed up on this, and we won't stop until they correct their mistake.....

Yeah.
"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."

On 2017-5-13 at 3:18 AM, Almagnus1 said:

However, that didn't happen and Hema didn't have it's cost reduced - which also further supports the point that Warframe really needs a resource sink because we just have too many resources.

I don't think that there is a need for Mutagen Samples sink compared to Alloy and Nano Spores.
The amount of Mutagen Samples required for Hema research would indirectly generate even more Nano Spores in player inventory, so DE going to add Nano Spores sink in the future? And justify the need for Nano Spores because the resource acquisition and usage are unbalanced, and due to the amount gained while farming for Mutagen Samples?

And personally, Warframe doesn't really need resource sink. Having resource sink is as good as not honoring player stockpiles which they spent time and effort in acquiring them in the first place.

[tyrannicaltyrant]

Why is this thread even still a thing?

[Newnight]

19 minutes ago, tyrannicaltyrant said:

Why is this thread even still a thing?

1. De prob opened up this wound by offering the nidus collection at reduced cost

2. De possibly opened it when some compare the polymer drain to hema (clear diff ik)

3. The cost issue was never addressed

4. It should still be a thing till issue is resolved

[Blacksonfive]

104 pages

many months

nothing happened

 

FeelsBadMan

[kaliazane]

1 hour ago, tyrannicaltyrant said:

Why is this thread even still a thing?

Because few people have troubles understanding what No means.

[AlphaTheFinalBalance]

5 hours ago, Ditto132 said:

Yeah.
"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."

I don't think that there is a need for Mutagen Samples sink compared to Alloy and Nano Spores.
The amount of Mutagen Samples required for Hema research would indirectly generate even more Nano Spores in player inventory, so DE going to add Nano Spores sink in the future? And justify the need for Nano Spores because the resource acquisition and usage are unbalanced, and due to the amount gained while farming for Mutagen Samples?

And personally, Warframe doesn't really need resource sink. Having resource sink is as good as not honoring player stockpiles which they spent time and effort in acquiring them in the first place.

We will be using those resources for relay rebuilding I think is what scott hinted at in a dev stream. So thankfully that time will not be for nought because we will have our very own #Science relay to blow up for science.

Also #RebuildStrata

[Kaotyke]

3 hours ago, tyrannicaltyrant said:

Why is this thread even still a thing?

Because its free upvotes for those who are against DE.

[Evanescent]

Wow, this is still running.

Well I don't know about the stats y'all are pulling out and going at each other with, I can only speak from my own experience.

We're a shadow clan. We have 4 people that are regular and the other come for updates and events, either because they burnt out or have irl stuff to do.

Being all F2P players, none of us run boosters. And from experience, it is quite burnout inducing trying to foot the bill. It is not raining samples in the derelicts. 

We refuse to force our members to grind one mission for hours and hours to just get one weapon. This is not what teamwork is. 

We still don't have the Hema, and it will probably be a long while before we do. Nothing anyone can do about that. DE certainly won't.

The costs were a mistake. You can't dance around that, because DE admitted as much on livestream. The reason they didn't change was out of apparent respect for people who had already done the research. 

Adding resource sinks is great, but not for resources that didn't need a sink.

Tell me, DE, when you tally player inventories, DE, do you account for boosters? 

Because they make a large difference. 

I can only hope they have learned and will not repeat a fiasco like this.

[Doubleplus]

Well played DE.

Step 1: Introduce a weapon with ludicrous requirements to obtain for free, knowing full well that a small percentage of players would be able to amass the required materials

Step 2: Use said small percentage of players as an excuse not to change the requirements, because apparently not only have research and crafting requirements never been changed in the past (Which they have), but its also not possible to reimburse the Clans that researched it before the nerf in some way in the form of a statue with a clan affinity bonus, or something along those lines (Which it is)

Step 3: In doing so you've created a division in the playerbase: You have the people who have done the grind and either want everyone else to feel their suffering, or just flat out don't want anyone but "most dedicated players" to have the weapon because dedication to the game means being ready and willing to sit through hours upon hours farming up huge amounts of  resource.

Step 4: Have a big market sale and have your grand community bonus be a $44 pack, containing the weapon, a warframe just about everyone who's at the point where they are researching the Hema already has, a syndanna that only looks any good on that specific warframe and that already went on sale, a weapon that can reasonably be gotten through gameplay, a helmet and two boosters, instead cost roughly $20 incentivisizing people to spend $7 more on the big pack rather than the $13 video game weapon, that can only be gotten freely if one is willing to dedicate hours upon hours of their time.

Step 5(Prediction and conspiracy): Take advantage of the fact that you have a fanbase who hooked on seeing numbers increase (Myself included) and arent leaving anytime soon to allow resource creep to occur, slowly letting time spent in the game become less and less valuable for progression and making it harder and harder to get weapons for free so that they feel pressured to cough up the plat. Allow the fact that much larger amounts of platinum is going into the market make plat become way overvalued due to the shortening supply and essentially kill off all lower level trading.

Theres my rant take it or leave it

[Hypernaut1]

If you don't have it by now, your clan doesn't deserve it. Working as intended

[Arniox]

5 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

If you don't have it by now, your clan doesn't deserve it. Working as intended

Agreed. 

[BornWithTeeth]

 

16 hours ago, Hypernaut1 said:

If you don't have it by now, your clan doesn't deserve it. Working as intended

I solo farmed it for my clan. I put in many hours on it, with Smeeta and Nekros, every time that I got a resource booster from daily login or Sortie reward. My Foundry had a constant stack of Orokin Derelict Survival and Defence keys going. I put a greater Lens on my Ack and Brunt, just to soak up the Focus Affinity from all the slashing. I drove hard, and got it done, and it still took weeks, grinding for hours at a time.

 

 

 

I still say it was a terrible decision by DE, and I would have no problem whatsoever if they halved the cost of it. That would not somehow take away from what I did, and I say this as someone who has found the Hema to be my favourite non-shotgun Primary.

[Tuxie]

Agreed 100%, I've just flat out refused to buy Hema with plat and convinced all my clanmmates and friends to do the same. This whole Hema disaster was horribly handled through and through.

[ChuckMaverick]

15 minutes ago, Arniox said:

Well I take pleasure in other people's suffering TBH.

It's sad to see that this is the sort of attitude that DE are 'honouring'.

I was curious just who would be selfish enough to insist that others must endure the grind just because they did, as I missed Steve's stream when some people apparently took that stance.

15 minutes ago, Arniox said:

I'm just saying that I'm very proud of my clan pulling through and grinding the weapon. It took a long time (about 3 weeks after release) and was annoying. But now were done. I feel very proud.

Dont that take that away from us. 

No one is arguing for that to be taken away from you. Even if the cost is reduced by 90% tomorrow, you still have the knowledge that you did it the 'hard way' and can take whatever pride you find from that.

[Arniox]

-edit-

Removed all

Edited May 15, 2017 by Arniox