HEMA Final Word - No Mutagen Drop or Cost change

[Almagnus1]

Just now, Gamma745 said:

No, what he kept saying is "It's not bad. You just need to take Nekros+Hydroid+Speed Nova+Double booster, run 40-min run a few times, and you'll get it in a few day."

Riiightt.... you need Hydroid.

Who on earth plays Hydroid?

That's like the derpiest frame of them all >.>

[Gamma745]

Just now, Almagnus1 said:

Riiightt.... you need Hydroid.

Who on earth plays Hydroid?

That's like the derpiest frame of them all >.>

Well, he has the Pilfering Swarm augment, which boost the drop rate. That's why most farmer recommend it.

But hey, some people do like Hydroid. I don't know whether they like his design or his skillset, but some still like him, for some reasons.

[Gamma745]

For the drop rate issue, here is my run:

I can only go for 10 minutes in, since the update drop in midway (as you can see in the chat box). No boosters, and as you can see there's only Titania in the team.

I got 7 Mutagen Sample for a 10 min run with a 539 kills

7:539 = 1:0.012987

slightly higher than what @Jorak_Falconstar and @Flirk2 got, but that may be attributed to the short run. More testing may be required. From this it seems the drop rate is still the same, but don't take my word for it.

Edited May 5, 2017 by Gamma745

[Tyrian3k]

22 hours ago, Gamma745 said:

For the drop rate issue, here is my run:

I can only go for 10 minutes in, since the update drop in midway (as you can see in the chat box). No boosters, and as you can see there's only Titania in the team.

I got 7 Mutagen Sample for a 10 min run with a 539 kills

7:539 = 1:0.012987

slightly higher than what @Jorak_Falconstar and @Flirk2 got, but that may be attributed to the short run. More testing may be required. From this it seems the drop rate is still the same, but don't take my word for it.

~1% chance is what it has always been from my experience. The problem with RNG is that you can never be sure that it's broken, even if you think you have a lot of data.

 

I'm saying this because I had a little frustration farming Lith V3 relics recently.

Here's the loot I got  from doing 10 waves on Spear on Mars repeatedly in chronological order (Note that I had already done ~20 runs without success before I started screenshotting my loot to make sure I'm not going crazy):

Spoiler

 

Took over 50 runs before I saw my first V3 relic, which has a 1/11 chance of dropping from any roll on rotation A. The chance of 50 runs (100 rolls) in a row without any V3s is (10/11)^100=0,0073%, so you might understand why I was getting a teensy suspicious at the lack of drops.

At the end of the day I still think that I simply got extremely unlucky.

Edited May 6, 2017 by Tyrian3k

[Zefat]

Imo Reducing the cost to half would suffice, its still a grind but its a fair grind compared to the 15000  i have to do with 5 veteran players in my clan, and 6 new players, the rest are just casual players still learning or can just play on weekends. Its defeats the purpose of fun in a game that's already grindy. Specially for new players. Since i'm not online as often as i used to and with so much to do now (ambulas reborn, new mods to farm and event), i just prefer to farm everything else quickly and efficiently and it actually awards you instead of wasting 2-3 hours daily on the same mission type farming nothing but one resource. Each hour for me with a resource boost/chance and a nekros with desecrate build on i usually get 80-100 mutagen samples. All this setup was because i am a "veteran" end game player, how would a new clan or even new player founded clans be able to catch up to this if not wasting almost months just to farm a single weapon. Don't get me wrong hema is strong, viral + corrosive melts almost everything, but nothing like torid, tigris, pox, zenistar. and you can get most of these by just playing the game, the resource costs of these weapons (torid, pox) both cost just 80 samples total...how does that equate to a weapon costing 15000 samples?!



Every other research takes time to farm specially with new players in a clan. It just seems like a forceful and painful grind. I think aiming towards a balance between both drop rate of the mutagen samples and hema costs will just be a waste of time. They created a problem and want to fix the problem by changing the game around the it :| 

TL:DR: "I think reducing the mutagen cost to half is faster/easier than balancing the drops and general resource rates"

Remember its just Imo. Sorry for the rant, it's just frustrating all this. 
 

[Jukantos]

I got lucky and got mine being in a 10 player clan with 4 founders who splashed the 5000 immediatly.

That said, this whole mess leaves the bad taste of Phase 3 Tencent probing in my mouth (testing how many players will actually pay for quasi hardlocked content, that is all the Hema is)

Here's hoping few people bought it for plat from the market, thereby showimg cosmetics are the better way to make money in the big data.

I love DE and this game but their Tencent-esque shenanigans are only getting worse over the years. Even knowing Tencent as a passive share holder has no say in the game's development, the application of their techniques in community handling cant be denied. I hope Warframe never ever slides into Phase 3 of Tencent games. Id rather have it stay on the good side of the curve forever.

[Volinus7]

6 hours ago, Jukantos said:

I got lucky and got mine being in a 10 player clan with 4 founders who splashed the 5000 immediatly.

That said, this whole mess leaves the bad taste of Phase 3 Tencent probing in my mouth (testing how many players will actually pay for quasi hardlocked content, that is all the Hema is)

Here's hoping few people bought it for plat from the market, thereby showimg cosmetics are the better way to make money in the big data.

I love DE and this game but their Tencent-esque shenanigans are only getting worse over the years. Even knowing Tencent as a passive share holder has no say in the game's development, the application of their techniques in community handling cant be denied. I hope Warframe never ever slides into Phase 3 of Tencent games. Id rather have it stay on the good side of the curve forever.

Tencent vs Baidu>PW+Changyou>Leyou+DE

O_o!?

[Gamma745]

11 hours ago, Volinus7 said:

Tencent vs Baidu>PW+Changyou>Leyou+DE

O_o!?

PW? What's that? Care to enlighten me here? I'm genuinely lost.

[Volinus7]

12 minutes ago, Gamma745 said:

PW? What's that? Care to enlighten me here? I'm genuinely lost.

Nah you don't have to get it. Just modern day Romance of three Kingdoms stuffs in China among B.A.T. group.

Edited May 10, 2017 by Volinus7

[Gamma745]

1 minute ago, Volinus7 said:

Nah you don't have to get it. Just modern day Romance of three Kingdoms stuffs in China between B.A.T. group.

Nothing worth noting, huh? Alright then. Can you at least tell me the full name? Just curious.

[Volinus7]

1 minute ago, Gamma745 said:

Nothing worth noting, huh? Alright then. Can you at least tell me the full name? Just curious.

Baidu/Alibaba/Tencent 

[kaliazane]

On 4.05.2017 at 11:06 PM, Ditto132 said:

Could you get anymore exaggerated?0% and bashing DE...
@Flirk2 could perform Linear regression(AKA best-fit line) on those data(including more additional sample data) to get closer approximation even with those anomalies.

Like comparing 11 and 14 samples from 2 runs and claiming nerf happened type of exegerration ? Plenty of DE bashing I witnessed here. I'm fairly certain he can speak for himself too.

Quote

 

Well, you stated:

which my brain, due to years of experiences with math, logics and programming, interpreted it as such.
"after" -> "beyond"/"over"/"more than"
"half year" -> "half a year"(minor correction) -> "6 months"
"over/more than 6 months" -> "over/more than ~6 months" -> "over/more than 6 months(plus/minus half a month)"(with context and leeways)

code-wise: ">=6 months"

That is why I responded with:

 

I wouldn't have pointed it out if it is >= 6 months...

I still don't see point to this wall of text. Seems to me like you are trying to be right about something, so you cling to the smallest things. Let me say it one more time, you are complaining for half year. After that much time most people won't care about your "data", because they are tired of it.

Quote

People are also tired of other people dismissing data and proofs, and not acting logically.

11v14 proves nothing, it's desperate attempt to create something out of nothing. Months of complaining to farm some upvotes are very logical.

Quote

 

Not sure if they did changed the drop rate.
While farming for Octavia part in ODS with friend and playing with another friend that yet to get it.
The Mutagen Samples obtained were lower than expected, but I dismissed those as anomalies. Like you said, maybe it's RNG.

I checked it out and posted my findings only after @Jorak_Falconstar claimed that droprate seems to be reduced.

Having worked with PRNG(Pseudo Random Number Generator), I am suspicious of the RNG being incorrectly modified due to updates and tweaks when doing optimizations and changes.

Contact them, maybe they will hire you and give you access to real data so you can investigate.

Quote

Ultimately, all players wanted is reasonable grind.

There is resonable and there's "I wan't to get everything without effort", which isn't resonable at all. 

Quote

Likewise, the Hema research cost is absurd compared to Javlok and Ferrox researches.

It's almost like Javlok and Ferrox were never designed to be harder to get. But hey, everything needs to stay at no effort level because that's how it used to be, right ?

Pure comedy.

Edited May 10, 2017 by ViS4GE

[Gamma745]

19 hours ago, Almagnus1 said:

This is more like leading a horse to water, having it kick you, then watching it run off into the desert.

Now, now. Let's not resort to insults.

 

22 hours ago, ViS4GE said:

It's almost like Javlok and Ferrox were never designed to be harder to get. But hey, everything needs to stay at no effort level because that's how it used to be, right ?

Pure comedy.

From what you're saying, everything should require a 3-months grind to be accessible? Everything should be acquired from a grindfest?

[kaliazane]

2 hours ago, Gamma745 said:

Now, now. Let's not resort to insults.

 

From what you're saying, everything should require a 3-months grind to be accessible? Everything should be acquired from a grindfest?

No, you said that. There is nothing wrong in having easier and harder to get things. Arguing that everything needs to be acquired by everyone, even if they don't feel like grinding at all is silly.

On 10.05.2017 at 7:07 PM, Almagnus1 said:

If you consider 2k or 3k samples to be no effort, then there's really not much more point in discussing this because you've done an excellent job emulating an ostrich.

 

Nowhere I said anything like that, you might pay more attention next time. I've been refering to how basically everything before hema was extremely easy to get. It's been half year and you don't have it, something tells me that 1k would be too much for you aswell. Both you and the other got reported for insults, next time stay quiet if you don't have anything constructive to say.

[Almagnus1]

Quote

It's been half year and you don't have it, something tells me that 1k would be too much for you aswell.

This point needs to be addressed:

No, half a year ago, one of our active clanmates had a kid, then spring semester started and we basically lost another active clanmate to RL because they're going back to school for their college engineering degree, and are either working or at college so don't have time to faff around on a game - at least until right about now when spring semester ends.  The rest of us looked at Hema, and decided that it wasn't worth the effort, so no one put any time in to farming Mutagen Samples for Hema, so time elapsed is completely and totally irrelevant.

Had the Mutagen Sample cost been more reasonable, that would have changed our farming priorities over the last six months and we would have spent far more time in the Derelict than we did.

The root problem, especially with casual clans (like mine) is that there's other stuff in game that takes higher priority over Hema, so while we'll still make token contributions, we're not focusing on specifically farming for this weapon because Hema isn't worth the effort because it's more time efficient for us to get platinum from trades and buy Hema for its platinum cost rather than try to get it through the dojo research (we are actually good enough with trading that we have sufficient platinum for whatever we want).  I mean, we'll do the research eventually because it is clan XP, but the Hema research is such a low priority that it's probably going to be several years before it's completed, and those of us that want Hema will have all gotten it via platinum by then anyways.

Quote

Both you and the other got reported for insults, next time stay quiet if you don't have anything constructive to say.

So you admit to baiting responses from people in opposition to your views so you could report them to the moderators and have their arguments you couldn't beat otherwise shut down?

Well played sir, well played.

Edited May 11, 2017 by Almagnus1

[kaliazane]

22 minutes ago, Almagnus1 said:

So you admit to baiting responses from people in opposition to your views so you could report them to the moderators and have their arguments you couldn't beat otherwise shut down?

Well played sir, well played.

 

No, it's just you once again creating and talking about things that never happened. If you resort to insults, you should be reported.

 

Spend your time in game however you want, but don't expect that something should be adjusted to you when you finally decide to get that certain harder to get item. Then you pop up on forum and throw insults at people who disagree with you... Many clans did it in casual way, even months after it was released. Your clan decided not to ? That's decision of your clan. If you actually wanted that weapon, u'd farm it solo by now.

At least you actually acknowledged that it can be easily purchased with plat, but from what I remember you didn't do that either. In the end, that's your decision.

Let me say it one more time. There is absolutely nothing wrong in having easier and harder to get items. Not everything needs to be extremely easy to get.

Edited May 11, 2017 by ViS4GE

[Almagnus1]

57 minutes ago, ViS4GE said:

No, it's just you once again creating and talking about things that never happened. If you resort to insults, you should be reported.

So that's what you try to refute... instead of the actual argument.

Am I feeding a troll here?

57 minutes ago, ViS4GE said:

Spend your time in game however you want, but don't expect that something should be adjusted to you when you finally decide to get that certain harder to get item.

Only thing I'm asking for is not having a 5k cost.  I've never advocated that the cost be reduced to a trivial amount, as you keep seeming to want to infer that I am asking for.

And yeah, I can almost hear the "go find a better clan" argument coming - but that's not how you treat your mates.

57 minutes ago, ViS4GE said:

Then you pop up on forum and throw insults at people who disagree with you...

Sure that's not you?

57 minutes ago, ViS4GE said:

 Many clans did it in casual way, even months after it was released. Your clan decided not to ? That's decision of your clan. If you actually wanted that weapon, u'd farm it solo by now.

If I actually wanted Hema, I'd just buy it for plat.  That research is not worth the time investment because there are other weapons far better than the Hema in game that can be obtained with less time investment.  Then there's also farming out the new equipment.

57 minutes ago, ViS4GE said:

Let me say it one more time. There is absolutely nothing wrong in having easier and harder to get items. Not everything needs to be extremely easy to get.

There's a big difference between having something that's hard (or challenging) to get, and then having something that's basically an incentive to buy it from the market for plat.  Hema is an incentive to buy platinum and buy it from the market.  Traditionally that's just been cosmetics, and that's what it should stay.  If DE puts a really strong weapon behind an effective "have no life or spend platinum" decision (like what they did with the Hema), then DE will start down the slippery slope of pay to win because it'd make more sense to just buy plat and gear up... rather than what we do now - which is farm out things.

And I strongly disagree that time investment is a measure of difficulty.

[BloodForTheBloodGods]

From what I can see from the Octavia Neuroptics drop rate in... you'll have enough mutagen samples by the time you finish farming that.

See guys, DE does care about this issue.

 

[kaliazane]

 

50 minutes ago, Almagnus1 said:

Only thing I'm asking for is not having a 5k cost.  I've never advocated that the cost be reduced to a trivial amount, as you keep seeming to want to infer that I am asking for.

And yeah, I can almost hear the "go find a better clan" argument coming - but that's not how you treat your mates.

5k is low for entire clan, it's doable solo as many people proved in past you just have to want. You said something about 2-3k, i'd say that would be very low as a clan goal. You won't hear go find better clan argument, because as you stated you could buy it if you wanted.

 

50 minutes ago, Almagnus1 said:

That research is not worth the time investment because there are other weapons far better than the Hema in game that can be obtained with less time investment.  Then there's also farming out the new equipment.

That's just your opinion. I did solo 95 min grineer survival with Hema and Zenistar week ago, killing in total something around 2.4k enemies, 1.3k with Hema. Imo it's worth it and really good. But if you feel like it isn't, don't farm for it. Once again, there is no written law anywhere stating that everyone needs to obtain everything even if they dont want to farm for it for whatever reason.

50 minutes ago, Almagnus1 said:

There's a big difference between having something that's hard (or challenging) to get, and then having something that's basically an incentive to buy it from the market for plat.  Hema is an incentive to buy platinum and buy it from the market.  Traditionally that's just been cosmetics, and that's what it should stay.  If DE puts a really strong weapon behind an effective "have no life or spend platinum" decision (like what they did with the Hema), then DE will start down the slippery slope of pay to win because it'd make more sense to just buy plat and gear up... rather than what we do now - which is farm out things.

And I strongly disagree that time investment is a measure of difficulty.

Again your opinion, I never found Hema to be particularly hard to get so I don't see it as incentive to spend plat. It's just something that you are suppose to work for with other people from your clan and organize them a bit, when you do it's really easy to farm especially in ghost clan. Even in extremely casual way as link I provided earlier proves.

 

I ignored parts of your post where you basically tried to provoke me, once again at that.

[Almagnus1]

3 minutes ago, ViS4GE said:

5k is low for entire clan, it's doable solo as many people proved in past you just have to want. You said something about 2-3k, i'd say that would be very low as a clan goal. You won't hear go find better clan argument, because as you stated you could buy it if you wanted.

How can the highest resource cost of all the rare resources in the dojo be considered "low"?

3 minutes ago, ViS4GE said:

That's just your opinion. I did solo 95 min grineer survival with Hema and Zenistar week ago, killing in total something around 2.4k enemies, 1.3k with Hema. Imo it's worth it and really good. But if you feel like it isn't, don't farm for it. Once again, there is no written law anywhere stating that everyone needs to obtain everything even if they dont want to farm for it for whatever reason.

If the Hema is actually a good weapon... that reinforces the claim that the costs were set to drive sales of platinum and DE heading in a pay to win direction - which is all the more reason to keep pestering DE to drop the research costs.

3 minutes ago, ViS4GE said:

Again your opinion, I never found Hema to be particularly hard to get so I don't see it as incentive to spend plat. It's just something that you are suppose to work for with other people from your clan and organize them a bit, when you do it's really easy to farm especially in ghost clan. Even in extremely casual way as link I provided earlier proves.

Granted, several of us have not yet started getting parts for Octavia and Nidus (RL reasons there more than anything else), so the issue may solve itself >.>

3 minutes ago, ViS4GE said:

I ignored parts of your post where you basically tried to provoke me, once again at that.

If you find the truth so triggering maybe the issue is with you and not me?  Just saying....

[kaliazane]

39 minutes ago, Almagnus1 said:

How can the highest resource cost of all the rare resources in the dojo be considered "low"?

If the Hema is actually a good weapon... that reinforces the claim that the costs were set to drive sales of platinum and DE heading in a pay to win direction - which is all the more reason to keep pestering DE to drop the research costs.

Granted, several of us have not yet started getting parts for Octavia and Nidus (RL reasons there more than anything else), so the issue may solve itself >.>

If you find the truth so triggering maybe the issue is with you and not me?  Just saying....

- Because everything up to that point required laughably low amounts.

- You can keep farming upvotes pestering for no reason, it's not going to change anything and I remember telling someone same thing few month ago. Pay to win in pve game like this because of 1 good rifle, which are bad compared to aoe weapon and really bad compared to almost all melee weapons, sounds legit. 

- Lets hope so !

- Silly provoking attempts are not "truth" and never will be. They are cute, that's about it ^_~

Edited May 11, 2017 by ViS4GE

[Almagnus1]

36 minutes ago, ViS4GE said:

- Because everything up to that point required laughably low amounts.

Which is the perspective of a vet who's played a lot and has effectively infinite resources - so our perspectives on the game are going to be vastly different.  With as much resources that some of the vets have, they could raise the cost to 10k or 100k mutagen samples for a ghost clan and it would still be "laughably low amounts".

Prices need to be set with casual players in mind, which is how things look like they have been.

36 minutes ago, ViS4GE said:

- You can keep farming upvotes pestering for no reason, it's not going to change anything and I remember telling someone same thing few month ago. Pay to win in pve game like this because of 1 good rifle, which are bad compared to aoe weapon and really bad compared to almost all melee weapons, sounds legit. 

- Lets hope so !

So rather than addressing the point, you're just going to mock the quote...

And you wonder why I react to you as I do...

36 minutes ago, ViS4GE said:

- Silly provoking attempts are not "truth" and never will be. They are cute, that's about it ^_~

That's hilarious coming form you.

[kaliazane]

14 hours ago, Almagnus1 said:

Which is the perspective of a vet who's played a lot and has effectively infinite resources - so our perspectives on the game are going to be vastly different.  With as much resources that some of the vets have, they could raise the cost to 10k or 100k mutagen samples for a ghost clan and it would still be "laughably low amounts".

Prices need to be set with casual players in mind, which is how things look like they have been.

There was a post of someone who created new account and effortlessly researched everything exept Hema. That's solo researching almost everything, in a clan that should have 10 people. I'd say that's way too low and I had this exact conversation with someone in past, you won't come up with anything new because everything was said already during these 6 months. Also no, 10k or 100k for ghost clan wouldn't be low, "laughably low" reffered to cost of everything before Hema. Seems you misunderstood it.

[Gamma745]

1 hour ago, ViS4GE said:

There was a post of someone who created new account and effortlessly researched everything exept Hema. That's solo researching almost everything, in a clan that should have 10 people. I'd say that's way too low

Yes, since he is an active player who can play everyday. Those who can't play everyday should never get Hema research finished, am I right?

[Almagnus1]

3 hours ago, Gamma745 said:

Yes, since he is an active player who can play everyday. Those who can't play everyday should never get Hema research finished, am I right?

Let's do the math the math on expected average contribution for a Ghost clan from a solo to max size clan, shall we?

Clan Size	Samples/Player
1	5000
2	2500
3	1667
4	1250
5	1000
6	833
7	714
8	625
9	556
10	500

The above shows why many of us looked at the Hema and went "oh hell no", because most people in the larger clans assume that there's more active players in the Ghost clans than there probably are.  For my clan, we had 4 active players and 2 others that were there whenever - which essentially means the four of us have to grind out 1250 samples each.  Thanks to RL and one of us having a kid, that means it's now effectively 3, and we'd have to collect 1667 each.  During the school semesters (which is relevant because Hema was released prior to the start of the semester, and we're at the semester's end) that means my clan's effective size dropped to 2 - so two of us would have to farm out 2500 samples.

I know some are like "but recruit more players!" and well, we've been through enough random stupidity in MMOs with random idiots in guilds and other related stupidity that we'd rather keep the randoms to the pub missions... so unless spouses and SOs start playing...

So it really boils down to how much you want the average player to contribute for the average clan size.  IMO 500 samples/player contribution is reasonable, but the assumption that all ghost clans have 10 players is not realistic.  If they did something like (500 mutagen samples)*(average ghost clan size) for the Hema research cost, I think that would be a much fairer research cost.

IMO the entire resource collection system needs some way for players to convert resources to either credits and/or endo (so we can bleed off our excessive amounts of resources), because that would keep things sane as the problem isn't the collection of stuff, it's that we've got almost nothing to do with said stuff so it piles up to absurd levels.

Edited May 12, 2017 by Almagnus1