HEMA Final Word - No Mutagen Drop or Cost change

[Ditto132]

On 2017-4-28 at 9:33 PM, zzzNitro said:

I was on the other spectrum of that, I had no cryotic and had to farm for it, I did it over the course of 2 months by running excavation solo whenever I had nothing to do. Same could be done for Hema, specially for casual clans that havent even finished all researches or colors.

Similarly, I got few researches that I couldn't start when it is available before, and unable to craft items such as Vauban Prime due to lack of Oxium.
Those I could deal with within 3 months before about 2 more researches were added into the Dojo, by playing normally.

Previously, I have no issues with not being able to start researching or crafting any particular items.
It was until when Javlok required a significant amount of Detonite Ampules that I started to take notice. Javlok research used up most of my Detonite Ampules that I collected for few years.

As for Hema research, you can't farm Mutagen Samples like Cryotic.
Cryotic is a guarantee resource compared to Mutagen Sample which is considered uncommon/rare with RNG.
Not to mention that you could play any excavation missions and while soloing.
As for Mutagen Samples, you are pretty much forced into playing in Derelict and with booster, meta squad/setup.

Hema research pushed it way too far... 5,000 Mutagen Samples compared to 1,000 Detonite Ampules, 5x more.

On 2017-4-28 at 9:33 PM, zzzNitro said:

The very thought of getting it casually defeats the purpose of researching it, doesn't it? 

• Yes Mutagen could drop in more planets, more than 1 at least, not counting derelict
• Which is a shame, Javlok could've costed 5000 da and it would have been better for discussion
• No research cost should factor in Akkad and Xini
• No research cost should consider what players get normally
• I would like an explanation for the cost tho, at least a reason why something is required more than something else

For some reasons, DE didn't want Mutagen Samples to drop in more planets to diversify the loot caves.
Javlok research costing 1,000 Detonite Ampules is already costing near 100x of other previous research... so make it cost 500x more?
Hema research costing 5,000 Mutagen Samples compared to Javlok research costing 1,000 Detonite Ampules doesn't make much sense, especially since Mutagen Samples are already scarce compared to Detonite Ampules.

Likewise, no research cost should factor in just Derelict and should not consider what veteran players got in their stockpiles.

On 2017-4-28 at 9:33 PM, zzzNitro said:

No, not really. If there was a deadline for a research to start then yes, it would be crazy absurd, but that's not the case.

Sure, it seems reasonable to take months/years while more contents are being added faster than you can complete.
Similarly, we could also have 1,000 Nitains requirement since there is no deadline.
No need to enforce some form of limit and threshold. Now...when will Focus/Syndicate, Power Efficiency, Life Support and Riven mods caps be removed.

[ChuckMaverick]

On 2017-4-29 at 6:43 AM, (Xbox One)RPColten said:

Wasn't Hema designed to act as a focus point for a long-term goal that clans can work towards slowly? I remember Steve talking about it saying that the purpose was to act as a sort of focus-sink.

No, I don't remember that ever being said by any member of DE staff.

Though if you have a link to a post, tweet or video where it was said then that would be interesting.

"it's a long term goal" is something that certain players have been putting forward here on the forum, all I have seen from DE is "we don't want players to be able to start the research immediately from stockpiles".

[Liminal]

On 4/29/2017 at 0:34 AM, (PS4)big_eviljak said:

Play game=get hema

Play game=no hema

*unless you farm two mission types on one single tileset with a full party using very specific (loot) frames.

[Almagnus1]

On the plus side, if they keep doing things like adding in Warframe pieces to the Derelict missions (like the Octavia Neuroptics), that will help offset the grind needed because you're killing two birds with one stone.

On the downside, it's still 5000 mutagen samples, which isn't going to be much fun unless your grinding for Octavia with a mutagen farming group =/

[-Temp0-]

On 29.04.2017 at 0:43 PM, (Xbox One)RPColten said:

Wasn't Hema designed to act as a focus point for a long-term goal that clans can work towards slowly? I remember Steve talking about it saying that the purpose was to act as a sort of focus-sink.

And who actually cares what he possibly thinks?

Especially after their comments that it's "raining m samples in Derelict". 

No one in their right mind would spend hours farming for a weapon that is in every way mediocre. Its literally a mastery fodder. You also seem to forget m samples drop in OD and this place isn't popluar at all - people don't just go to chill out there they go there for a reason, nothing woth the time drops there. Thanks to m samples farming I now have 5 000 000 nanospores. And nothing else.

[God_is_a_Cat_Girl]

#FixErisDropRates2017

[Jorak_Falconstar]

Just an FYI and seeking some confirmation

Anyone tried soloing ODS lately??

I used to average 20-40 samples in there solo with Nekros and no booster

Just did 2 run with Nekros and a booster.  4 and 6 samples..

 

Stealth Nerf Detected??

[Gamma745]

4 minutes ago, Jorak_Falconstar said:

Just an FYI and seeking some confirmation

Anyone tried soloing ODS lately??

I used to average 20-40 samples in there solo with Nekros and no booster

Just did 2 run with Nekros and a booster.  4 and 6 samples..

 

Stealth Nerf Detected??

Really? Last time I got in ODS was before the Oberon rework, got about 15 samples in a 35 min-run. For confirmation, your 2 run is 20 min each, right?

May need more testing.

[Jorak_Falconstar]

well was about 15 minutes per run was testing a rebuilt Tonkor  

but still the drop rate was way less than what it used to be.. as I said, it used to average about 1 sample per minute with just a Nekros running desecrate and no booster.

today with the resource booster and Nekros 2 and 3 drops respectively (giving a total of 4 and 6 samples because of the booster)

[Gamma745]

4 minutes ago, Jorak_Falconstar said:

well was about 15 minutes per run was testing a rebuilt Tonkor  

but still the drop rate was way less than what it used to be.. as I said, it used to average about 1 sample per minute with just a Nekros running desecrate and no booster.

today with the resource booster and Nekros 2 and 3 drops respectively (giving a total of 4 and 6 samples because of the booster)

2-3 drop each run in a 15 minute run with Nekros? Well, ain't that just perfect. The last hope to get Hema has been dashed... I sure hope you're just unlucky, otherwise there's no reason to even try...

[Jorak_Falconstar]

Just now, Gamma745 said:

2-3 drop each run in a 15 minute run with Nekros? Well, ain't that just perfect. The last hope to get Hema has been dashed... I sure hope you're just unlucky, otherwise there's no reason to even try...

well that was the other half of why I was in there and thus why I posted here.

Trying to find out If anyone else has noticed similarly reduced drop rates and if they have then we can bring this to DE's attention as a Stealth Nerf which to be brutally honest I very nearly made a separate post.

[Gamma745]

39 minutes ago, Jorak_Falconstar said:

well that was the other half of why I was in there and thus why I posted here.

Trying to find out If anyone else has noticed similarly reduced drop rates and if they have then we can bring this to DE's attention as a Stealth Nerf which to be brutally honest I very nearly made a separate post.

Well, I can't test it out myself, still at work. Furthermore, looks like I have a long day ahead of me so I would have little time to try the Derelict today.

[Jorak_Falconstar]

well 2 more runs

 

15 and 17 samples..

 

still seems like the drop rate has been stealth nerfed compared to what I was seeing before Octavia's Anthem

 

[(PSN)Onder6099]

1 hour ago, Jorak_Falconstar said:

well was about 15 minutes per run was testing a rebuilt Tonkor  

but still the drop rate was way less than what it used to be.. as I said, it used to average about 1 sample per minute with just a Nekros running desecrate and no booster.

today with the resource booster and Nekros 2 and 3 drops respectively (giving a total of 4 and 6 samples because of the booster)

Since when is Tonkor, with Puncture and Blast Dmg especially, recommended as farming weapon?

[aheavysigh]

41 minutes ago, Jorak_Falconstar said:

well 2 more runs

 

15 and 17 samples..

 

still seems like the drop rate has been stealth nerfed compared to what I was seeing before Octavia's Anthem

 

Out of curiosity, what mission type were you running, and how many samples were you used to getting? I've been running 30 minute solo derelict survivals with a desecrate nekros and getting at least 20 per run. In the face of how much the hema costs it's not much, so I do wonder how other people are farming.

Edited May 3, 2017 by Tsaiorchis

[Jorak_Falconstar]

20 minutes ago, Tsaiorchis said:

Out of curiosity, what mission type were you running, and how many samples were you used to getting? I've been running 30 minute solo derelict survivals with a desecrate nekros and getting at least 20 per run. In the face of how much the hema costs it's not much, so I do wonder how other people are farming.

I've been doing the same, 20-30 minute solo ODS with Nekros running descrate at all times.

before Octavia's Anthem I would average 20-40 samples per run without a booster

of the 4 runs today 2, 3, 15 and 17 samples over the same time frame..  either the first 2 runs were just anomalies or something is up with the drop rates

 

[-Temp0-]

6 hours ago, Tsaiorchis said:

Out of curiosity, what mission type were you running, and how many samples were you used to getting? I've been running 30 minute solo derelict survivals with a desecrate nekros and getting at least 20 per run. In the face of how much the hema costs it's not much, so I do wonder how other people are farming.

It's not worth farming without 1 both boosters - if you kind of fedup with the whole forced to pay for those kind of things try to get one of them from sortie or maybe login rewards, that's what I did because I'm not gonna pay 80p for a chance to grind for 15 hours (I'd also say that yellow booster is kind of more important but nothing beats both) 2 at the very least if you can only run it solo without nekros, a slash weapon (usually that means melee since there's no aoe slash primary able to kill a whole room of enemies in a second) I personally was doing it with atterax with primed reach and p fury+berserker + smeeta 3 if you can afford a 4 men team you have other options like even more smeetas, hydroids and stuff. If you're planning to use hydroid you have to use banshee that will spam sonar (literally spam not just press it once in a minute) cause of the anchients. Then you will be able to actually kill them with hydroid. You also would want both enemy radar+another similar mod like enemy sense because it raises enemys' awareness and makes them detect you easier - that's for ODS and all other survivals in general, you should have it.

I was doing 25 minute runs (because sometimes at minute 25-27 the Juggernaut would appear and I didn't want to bother with him) and on average under those conditions solo getting 100 to 200 m samples, average at 150. With smeeta charm you can get up to 8 samples per enemy instead of usual 2 (since I was meleeing everything I didn't really need vacuum).

Couple of examples

 

But you also should do the math and keep in mind that it still will take you ~30 runs or 12-15 hours of pure farming in a single mission and if you will buy a 3 day booster(s) you will have to do it in a span of those 3 days. That's also why I was keeping it to solo, so that way you're free to do it whenever and not care about spending time trying to recruit people if you don't have active clanmates willing to do the same.

That's also why those kinds of things are arguably easier to do for smaller clans unless you're in some competitive tryhard one by some luck. That way you won't be at the mercy of your clanmates. So yeah no those researches don't really promote cooperation or anything if anything else it's the opposite.

Edited May 3, 2017 by -Temp0-

[Flirk2]

6 hours ago, Jorak_Falconstar said:

of the 4 runs today 2, 3, 15 and 17 samples over the same time frame..  either the first 2 runs were just anomalies or something is up with the drop rates

Drop rate seems to be lower than it was.

It was about 1% drop chance from enemies killed in ODS.

Now it's about 0.6%. So with login reward resource booster it's like this:

The famous ''Rain'' of mutagen samples intensifies.

 

P.S. But not to worry. All those ''just play the game and you'll get it'' people won't see another ''x2'' grind modifier as anything bad.

Edited May 3, 2017 by Flirk2

[-Temp0-]

Just now, Flirk2 said:

Drop rate seems to be lower than it was.

It was about 1% drop chance from enemies killed in ODS.

Now it's about 0.6%. So with login reward resource booster it's like this:

The famous ''Rain'' of mutagen samples intensifies.

Holy hell it's more pathetic than it even used to be. It's amazing it's even possible.

[Ikusias]

This is hilarious and smells of petty retribution due to the many vitriolic comments someone at De is getting on all socials, way to go to piss off players even more.

[aheavysigh]

1 hour ago, -Temp0- said:

It's not worth farming without 1 both boosters - if you kind of fedup with the whole forced to pay for those kind of things try to get one of them from sortie or maybe login rewards, that's what I did because I'm not gonna pay 80p for a chance to grind for 15 hours (I'd also say that yellow booster is kind of more important but nothing beats both) 2 at the very least if you can only run it solo without nekros, a slash weapon (usually that means melee since there's no aoe slash primary able to kill a whole room of enemies in a second) I personally was doing it with atterax with primed reach and p fury+berserker + smeeta 3 if you can afford a 4 men team you have other options like even more smeetas, hydroids and stuff. If you're planning to use hydroid you have to use banshee that will spam sonar (literally spam not just press it once in a minute) cause of the anchients. Then you will be able to actually kill them with hydroid. You also would want both enemy radar+another similar mod like enemy sense because it raises enemys' awareness and makes them detect you easier - that's for ODS and all other survivals in general, you should have it.

I was doing 25 minute runs (because sometimes at minute 25-27 the Juggernaut would appear and I didn't want to bother with him) and on average under those conditions solo getting 100 to 200 m samples, average at 150. With smeeta charm you can get up to 8 samples per enemy instead of usual 2 (since I was meleeing everything I didn't really need vacuum).

Couple of examples

 

But you also should do the math and keep in mind that it still will take you ~30 runs or 12-15 hours of pure farming in a single mission and if you will buy a 3 day booster(s) you will have to do it in a span of those 3 days. That's also why I was keeping it to solo, so that way you're free to do it whenever and not care about spending time trying to recruit people if you don't have active clanmates willing to do the same.

That's also why those kinds of things are arguably easier to do for smaller clans unless you're in some competitive tryhard one by some luck. That way you won't be at the mercy of your clanmates. So yeah no those researches don't really promote cooperation or anything if anything else it's the opposite.

Oh wow Im dumb I forgot about my smeeta. And yeah, I've been running with a booster.

[Almagnus1]

That's kinda the downside of a Smeeta.... yes you can run with one, but then you have to do loot pickups whereas a sentinel will you let farm for longer because you can focus on killing.  Really, they should just take the entire looting system and make it automatic.

But yeah... the research cost of the Hema should get reduced to 1-2k, which is far more reasonable because this item is simply not worth the effort, and most small clans are going to see that and then completely ignore it or just happen to toss samples towards it as they get them - which means even slower progress.

[Chipputer]

3 hours ago, Flirk2 said:

Drop rate seems to be lower than it was.

It was about 1% drop chance from enemies killed in ODS.

Now it's about 0.6%. So with login reward resource booster it's like this:

The famous ''Rain'' of mutagen samples intensifies.

 

P.S. But not to worry. All those ''just play the game and you'll get it'' people won't see another ''x2'' grind modifier as anything bad.

Oh look, comparing a run with a Hydroid to a run without one and trying to say that the drop rate is worse. Quite frankly, you had a similar number of kills. Considering Hydroid is basically a booster, if anything the drop rate is either better or the same.

Stop trying to pretend it's worse than it is and people will stop telling you to just play the game. You don't need the Hema. You don't even want it, at this point. You people are looking for an excuse to complain and it's the easiest target.

Edited May 3, 2017 by Chipputer
typo

[Flirk2]

13 minutes ago, Chipputer said:

Considering Hydroid is basically a booster

Oh? When he starts the mission at level 0 and gets level 12 with bonus affinity?

Just so you know, the only power that affects loot on Hydroid is unlocked at level 10. Which I didn't have in that run at all.

Try something else.

P.S.

And it doesn't take prodigious skill in math to calculate and compare mutagen sample drop to kill ratios from those two screen shots.

 

The ''just play the game'' thing, as I expected, showed up again. Completely disregarding the evidence of the lowered drop rate provided.

I would lose hope in humanity at this point... if I had any.

Edited May 3, 2017 by Flirk2

[Ditto132]

39 minutes ago, Chipputer said:

Oh look, comparing a run with a Hydroid to a run without one and trying to say that the drop rate is worse. Quite frankly, you had a similar number of kills. Considering Hydroid is basically a booster, if anything the drop rate is either better or the same.

Let take a look at the first image:

Spoiler

Kills: 1073
Nano Spores: 7744
Mutagen Samples: 11

Kills to Mutagen Samples ratio is
1073 : 11 => 1 : ~0.01025
Kills to Nano Spores ratio is
1073 : 7744 => 1 : ~7.22

Let take a look at the second image:

Spoiler

Kills: 1133
Nano Spores: 16800
Mutagen Samples: 14

Kills to Mutagen Samples ratio is
1133 : 14 => 1 : ~0.01235
Kills to Nano Spores ratio is
1133 : 16800 => 1 : ~14.83

First image vs Second image:
Kills to Mutagen Samples ratio ( 1 : ~0.01025 ) vs ( 1 : ~0.01235 )
Kills to Nano Spores ratio ( 1 : ~7.22 ) vs ( 1 : ~14.83 )

Since @Flirk2 stated that the second image is with booster from login, the ~2x increase for Kills to Nano Spore ratio from ~7.22 to ~14.83 seems reasonable.
However, it seems weird that it doesn't apply for Mutagen Samples to Kills ratio.

Well, let me add two more images from me.

Spoiler

Kills to Mutagen Samples ratio is 
Flirk2 1st image: 1073 : 11 => 1 : ~0.01025
Flirk2 2nd image(with booster): 1133 : 14 => 1 : ~0.01235
My 1st image: 1055 : 15 => 1 : ~0.01422
My 2nd image: 1077 : 27 => 1 : ~0.02507
Kills to Nano Spores ratio is
Flirk2 1st image: 1073 : 7744 => 1 : ~7.22
Flirk2 2nd image(with booster): 1133 : 16800 => 1 : ~14.83
My 1st image: 1055 : 12455 => 1 : ~11.81
My 2nd image: 1077 : 13891 => 1 : ~12.90

More data is welcomed.

39 minutes ago, Chipputer said:

Stop trying to pretend it's worse than it is and people will stop telling you to just play the game. You don't need the Hema. You don't even want it, at this point. You people are looking for an excuse to complain and it's the easiest target.

Stop trying to pretend that there are no issues. Likewise, players don't need TennoGens, Umbra, more weapons/frames/contents.
Players are looking for more new contents because they blazed through them while others spent less time due to things such as real life commitments.
"Just play the game and wait for it... eventually Umbra/TennoGen/rework/buff/nerf/??? will come..."