For the love of god, please do something about Mirage + Synoid Simulor

[(XBOX)Ivan of Jupiter]

Again.

Nerfing isn't the solution. Simple changes can make all the difference.

Ive said it before and I'll say it again.

Make Hall of Mirrors Mirages fourth ability. Make it a toggle energy drain ability. Make the energy drain increase over time. Keep the damage capability the same. HoM has been neutered too many times to have another damage reduction. Remove prism. Add a new interesting ability as her 1.

Truth is, Mirage needs a rework overall, but HoM is kind of what defines her. It'd be like reworking frost and removing Snowglobe. Reworking Ember and removing WoF. Reworking Excalibur and removing Exalted Blade. 

As for Simulor, either reduce the AoE range or increase the amount of shots needed to cause the explosion. Because something as trivial as decreased damage will only make people use the Miragulor combo even more just to make use of what would then be considered a crappy weapon.

Edited January 11, 2017 by (XB1)DRG JupiterIvan

[Ciaus]

1 hour ago, KamishirasawaKeine said:

"OMG mirage + simulor too OP!!!"

"OMG mirage + tonkor too OP!!!"

"OMG mirage + soma p too OP!!!"

"OMG mirage + mk1 braton too OP!!!"

"OMG mirage + Dr.Jekyll's cane too OP!!!"

Believe it or not, I've actually heard of almost all kinds of complaining about 'mirage + XXX' combination.

 

Mirage has already been nerfed to the ground compared to her initial stats, so has the simulor. If that still bothers you I'm pretty sure there're more things could possibly bother you.

Isn't Banshee OP? Even after the nerf, painting enemy with sonar is still a thing, except that there's no point going over one hour in void survival now.

Isn't Chroma OP? Jumping around with 140k ehp and 5.5x damage buff, what else can you expect?

Isn't Rhino OP? Every time you press 3, everyone around you gets 2.5x damage buff. Literally press-3-to-win, so why no just nerf him and revert his 3 back to the ground slamming?

Why not talk about Ivara + Zenistar build as well? Maybe because even login for 300 days is too much for someone?

 

I'll be straight, many people complain about Mirage only because Mirage is the only endgame build they know. Ever since the age of Damage 1.0, there were, are, and will be countless ways to mess with damage scaling. Mirage is only one of them, and not even the best one.

Reading the thread you will see the primary complaint is not the damage. 
Mirage and tonkor still has to roughly aim. Tonkor doesn't stun every enemy in a huge radius with one-hand clicks while browsing reddit on another tab. It ALSO doesn't as heavily remove your ability to do anything in the game. With no aim or timing whatsoever, simulor mirage can clear and defend damn near anything, and without even looking t your minimap can clear entire extermination missions before anyone else can SEE a live enemy. 

It takes other players out the game in a way other strong things don't do. Frost is amazingly strong, but you have to have a super obnoxious build and be playing at lower level content to remove the game from your teammates. 

[KamishirasawaKeine]

18 minutes ago, Ciaus said:

Reading the thread you will see the primary complaint is not the damage. 
Mirage and tonkor still has to roughly aim. Tonkor doesn't stun every enemy in a huge radius with one-hand clicks while browsing reddit on another tab. It ALSO doesn't as heavily remove your ability to do anything in the game. With no aim or timing whatsoever, simulor mirage can clear and defend damn near anything, and without even looking t your minimap can clear entire extermination missions before anyone else can SEE a live enemy. 

It takes other players out the game in a way other strong things don't do. Frost is amazingly strong, but you have to have a super obnoxious build and be playing at lower level content to remove the game from your teammates. 

 

In terms of result, it is all about damage and effectiveness.

Personally, despite the fact of being overused, I still believe that builds like simulor mirage should be encouraged instead of nerfed into oblivion. It is a good thing that we use warframe's ability to mitigate the flaw of weapon. In this case, since simulor does not benefit from multishot, HoM can effectively increase the damage and mitigate the delay before the damage appears.

There're a lot of other good examples that synergy between the frame and weapon dramatically increases effectiveness. Tonkor has S#&$ty aim and bounces around,  but combined with Jet Stream Zephyr it  literally becomes a mini rocket launcher; Toxic gas weapons like torid have really hard time fighting in open spaces, but Saryn's Spore can also compensate for that; Zenistar's disc has unimpressive damage when fighting high-level enemy and lacks offensive capability, but Ivara's Navigator can easily give it a 40x damage buff while also allowing you to fly the disc around. This is much better than the old time when people consider their frames and weapons to be separated instead of whole.

[Ciaus]

2 minutes ago, KamishirasawaKeine said:

There're a lot of other good examples that synergy between the frame and weapon dramatically increases effectiveness. Tonkor has S#&$ty aim and bounces around,  but combined with Jet Stream Zephyr it  literally becomes a mini rocket launcher; Toxic gas weapons like torid have really hard time fighting in open spaces, but Saryn's Spore can also compensate for that; Zenistar's disc has unimpressive damage when fighting high-level enemy and lacks offensive capability, but Ivara's Navigator can easily give it a 40x damage buff while also allowing you to fly the disc around. This is much better than the old time when people consider their frames and weapons to be separated instead of whole.

Every other synergy you mentioned there takes some effort to execute and doesn't super cheese literally the majority of the game. 

You remove the drawback of the weapon, but in a way that makes it both brainless and capable of depriving a whole team of the ability to kill things, or even support. Miragulor in public games is just there to get the benefit of more spawns. Allies aren't even helping. 

[KamishirasawaKeine]

Just now, Ciaus said:

Every other synergy you mentioned there takes some effort to execute and doesn't super cheese literally the majority of the game. 

You remove the drawback of the weapon, but in a way that makes it both brainless and capable of depriving a whole team of the ability to kill things, or even support. Miragulor in public games is just there to get the benefit of more spawns. Allies aren't even helping. 

 

'Effort'

Did I mentioned Zenistar? I can't even find a more effortless weapon than this thing.

I'm pretty sure I also mentioned Chroma, the easiest way to achieve immortality, and zapping corpse with amprex is kind of effortless.

Tonkor Zephyr does not require much effort as well, point at the approximate location of hordes and boom.

Most of the popular builds become popular only because they require relatively low or almost no effort, and none of them are less 'cancerous' than the infamous simulor mirage. You can still see a lot of Banshee and Saryn annihilating grineers on Sedna, nothing can surpass them. And I believe you overrated the effectiveness of mirage, eclipse is the most inconsistent ability in the game, and you have to aggressively charge at enemies to take advantage of your damage output, and she's relatively fragile in firefight.

So, in terms of the level of being cancerous, simulor mirage is still far from the top-tier. There're a lot of methods to milk tons of profit without lifting your finger, that's what should be fixed.

[xiaodenden]

I agree with you that something needs to be done with Simulor Mirage.  I like Synoid Simulor and I like Mirage.  I like that combination when it's called for (sorties, high level endless missions, etc.), but it's no fun for other players outside of those conditions.  People are annoyed because it's too easy for Simulor-Telos Boltace Mirage to rack up the kills without any skills and because it leaves the rest of the team nothing to do.  I don't care so much about other players out damage or out kill me because, hey, free xp, but I do care about not having anything to do in a mission.  Those same Mirages would break the glass in Corpus tile sets (and then not bother to hack security) or ignoring the objective of the mission because they're brainlessly firing their weapons and not playing attention to their surroundings.  I'm sure many of us would like to tell those Simulor Mirages to solo, but I suspect that more often than not they're not skilled enough to solo which is why they resort to such cheesy tactic in PuG.  

While I don't use Mirage that often, I notice that now people leave the team if they see a Mirage even though I'm (or someone else) not using Simulor or any of the OP weapons.  Kind of sad that behavior of others is affecting the rest of us.  I'm also sad that Mirage is such a great frame and yet all we see now is someone cast HoM and then running around with their using Simulor or Telos Boltace even with no enemy in sight.  

I'm not calling for nerfs but I hope the interaction between Mirage and certain weapons are changed so the only players left are the ones who actually enjoy using her and know how to play her.  We all know she synergizes well with quite a few weapons, but lack of aiming to kill of Simulor makes Simulor Mirage more cheesy than other combinations.  I suspect originally Simulor was designed for more for defensive, stationary play, but Mirage is the ideal weapon platform because of HoM and her mobility.  At this rate, I think Mirage needs a rework so her powers synergize well with each other so people will want or need to use all of her abilities.  Definitely not an easy problem to solve and people will be salty no matter what.

[Max_AKC]

I'll just leave this here ;)

 

[(XBOX)Oussii]

16 hours ago, Insizer said:

I think that I'm not alone in saying this, but please DE, for the love of god and all that is holy, please do something about Mirage + Synoid Simulor. It is damn near cancer to the game. There are many things that can be done: nerf Synoid Simulor, nerf Mirage, make it so that the simulor orbs from a clone cannot combine with those of the other clones and the actual user, make it so that each shot requires a short charge up. I don't particularly care, I just want this issue fixed. It has been the greater part of a year, and nothing has been done at all despite this being one of the most requested and complained about things on the forums. I just want this fixed and have the fix actually work without making the simulor series useless.

Oh what's wrong? did someone steal your kills?

Or you did not get the most kill in a squad?

Let me know what frame and weapon  u use so i can start me and my friends spam the forum to nerf them

You don't like the combination, the Solo mode is your option

And stop whining please, you're a grown up Man.

[YUNoJump]

Just now, (Xbox One)Oussii said:

Oh what's wrong? did someone steal your kills?

Or you did not get the most kill in a squad?

Let me know what frame and weapon  u use so i can start me and my friends spam the forum to nerf them

You don't like the combination, the Solo mode is your option

And stop whining please, you're a grown up Man.

If you go ahead and read all of the thread up to this point you'll see that the problem isn't people wanting to get lots of kills, it's people wanting to actually play the game. Warframe is of the Shooter genre of game, but if you keep getting outpaced by Miragulor users then you aren't going to be able to shoot anything yourself, and then every mission with a Miragulor user becomes a cleanup detail. Miragulor makes it ridiculously easy to outpace standard builds without any effort at all.

As for playing solo, why should I have to stop playing co-op, ie the main gamemode, just so that other people can have their own fun. Public lobbies are just that, public, so no player has the right to remove other players' fun in it.

[DERPY_SMOOG]

40 minutes ago, (Xbox One)Oussii said:

Oh what's wrong? did someone steal your kills?

Or you did not get the most kill in a squad?

Let me know what frame and weapon  u use so i can start me and my friends spam the forum to nerf them

You don't like the combination, the Solo mode is your option

And stop whining please, you're a grown up Man.

blatant hostility without even bothering to get caught up on the debate we are having makes you look like an ignorant bigot. your point has already been made and discarded as a viable option to promote fun multiplayer. which you would know if you read even the first  few responses.

 

Edited January 12, 2017 by DERPY_SMOOG

[Top_Kekkonen]

No.

[PatternistSlave]

17 hours ago, Insizer said:

I think that I'm not alone in saying this, but please DE, for the love of god and all that is holy, please do something about Mirage + Synoid Simulor. It is damn near cancer to the game. There are many things that can be done: nerf Synoid Simulor, nerf Mirage, make it so that the simulor orbs from a clone cannot combine with those of the other clones and the actual user, make it so that each shot requires a short charge up. I don't particularly care, I just want this issue fixed. It has been the greater part of a year, and nothing has been done at all despite this being one of the most requested and complained about things on the forums. I just want this fixed and have the fix actually work without making the simulor series useless.

Yeah.  Make Mirage unplayable.  Get on that DE.

[YUNoJump]

51 minutes ago, PatternistSlave said:

Yeah.  Make Mirage unplayable.  Get on that DE.

If you think that Mirage is unplayable without a Simulor then you need to take a look at how you're playing her.

[-_Highlander_-]

19 hours ago, Insizer said:

I think that I'm not alone in saying this, but please DE, for the love of god and all that is holy, please do something about Mirage + Synoid Simulor. It is damn near cancer to the game. There are many things that can be done: nerf Synoid Simulor, nerf Mirage, make it so that the simulor orbs from a clone cannot combine with those of the other clones and the actual user, make it so that each shot requires a short charge up. I don't particularly care, I just want this issue fixed. It has been the greater part of a year, and nothing has been done at all despite this being one of the most requested and complained about things on the forums. I just want this fixed and have the fix actually work without making the simulor series useless.

Well if this is only fit to you're needs then there is somthing wrong with you

lets nerf everthing you play with :) see how far you will come

 

dont forget you are not the only one that handles Mirage + Simulor ,, 

 

i play mirage + Simulor when i need to not when you allow me to 

Mirage is nerfed already but .. yeah lets dig her into the ground and dance on it 

make her totaly useless 

So shame that you wanna break gameplay for other players only because you can't stand it that an warframe can clone herself an be more than that

 

Ill defend this mechanic until the end of warframe or Devs have removed Mirage and Simulor 

Until then you''ll gonna meet me with an Simulor and show you the differ 

 

Spoiler

When you meet me you have 2 choices stay in mission or bail out as soon as possible .. Iam not forcing you to play with mirage >.<

 

 

[Xzorn]

What's the issue exactly?

Is it that you're fighting the same level enemies through 4 years of Power Creep. Or is it a damage frame doing damage?

No one I know plays her in a late game runs. She falls off hard and so does Simulor.

You might as well complain about Ignis cuz that weapon puts Simulor to shame below level 50.  All this really comes down to is perspective.

Balancing based on a specific level range is why so many changes go horribly wrong in this game.

I'd personally be complaining that we can't more easily access higher level enemies and those enemies scale to a ridiculous degree in damage output.

They give you all these fun toys then tell you to stay in your room and never leave and so you get crap like this.

 

[PatternistSlave]

3 hours ago, YUNoJump said:

If you think that Mirage is unplayable without a Simulor then you need to take a look at how you're playing her.

I don't play her period. I have plenty of better frames.  What exactly is this mission type the OP is whining about where Mirage is a thing?  Regular star map assassinates?

[YUNoJump]

2 hours ago, PatternistSlave said:

I don't play her period. I have plenty of better frames.  What exactly is this mission type the OP is whining about where Mirage is a thing?  Regular star map assassinates?

Miragulor is very common in most mission types, I don't even play pub that much and I still understand how often this is a problem. Realistically there isn't much difference in missions other than the specific objective (which is often at a single fixed point), until you get there it's just killing enemies in your path, which Miragulor unreasonably outpaces everything else at.

[YUNoJump]

3 hours ago, GameKingMike334 said:

Mirage is nerfed already but .. yeah lets dig her into the ground and dance on it 

make her totaly useless 

So shame that you wanna break gameplay for other players only because you can't stand it that an warframe can clone herself an be more than that

This has been mentioned quite a few times on this thread already; Mirage isn't useless without a Simulor, and if you are only using Mirage for the Miragulor combo then something still needs to be changed. Lots of people played Ash/Saryn/Mag etc for a single ability they had, but the frames weren't being used as a Frame, they were being used as a single ability. Same problem with Miragulor.

3 hours ago, GameKingMike334 said:

When you meet me you have 2 choices stay in mission or bail out as soon as possible .. Iam not forcing you to play with mirage >.<

Public servers are public spaces where nobody has more rights to stay than others, I shouldn't be forced to leave just because you want to do something that ruins my fun. And what if I start a public lobby but then a Miragulor user joins? the Miragulor user has just kicked me out of a lobby that I started. That's not fair in a public space. Again, this has been discussed multiple times above, I'd advise you (and any other newcomers) to read the thread before posting kneejerk reactions.

[-_Highlander_-]

5 hours ago, GameKingMike334 said:

Mirage is nerfed already but .. yeah lets dig her into the ground and dance on it 

make her totaly useless 

So shame that you wanna break gameplay for other players only because you can't stand it that an warframe can clone herself an be more than that

 

1 hour ago, YUNoJump said:

This has been mentioned quite a few times on this thread already; Mirage isn't useless without a Simulor, and if you are only using Mirage for the Miragulor combo then something still needs to be changed. Lots of people played Ash/Saryn/Mag etc for a single ability they had, but the frames weren't being used as a Frame, they were being used as a single ability. Same problem with Miragulor.

This has been mentioned quite a few times on this thread already :Mirage isn't useless without a Simulor <-- well on page 1 the complains are about Mirage and Simulor 

nice one to adjust the topic to somthing else .. this aint working for me :) 

an nerf is an nerf not an buff .. the clones are already nerfed ..

why in the heck does it need more nerfs then .. ( LOL this topic has created by one that is absolutly against Mirage + Simulor players 

And what is you're problem if people only use Mirage+ simulor only for that combination .. it is still not up to you to decide who plays whit what

its the same as you only can play with Ember and nothing else .. i cant decide that, its you're choice to make an play with everthing you like.

Deal with the fact that people enjoy there setups if you cant handle that, than avoid public.

 

 

1 hour ago, YUNoJump said:

Public servers are public spaces where nobody has more rights to stay than others, I shouldn't be forced to leave just because you want to do something that ruins my fun. And what if I start a public lobby but then a Miragulor user joins? the Miragulor user has just kicked me out of a lobby that I started. That's not fair in a public space. Again, this has been discussed multiple times above, I'd advise you (and any other newcomers) to read the thread before posting kneejerk reactions.

Public servers are public spaces where nobody has more rights to stay than others :

Ok i smell an dictator here ,

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I shouldn't be forced to leave just because you want to do something that ruins my fun.

 

You're fun .. hmm how about others .. non the less you dictate again in this .. you decide what may and may not allowed

Exit the Mission and restart if you feel unconfortable playing with spammers .. Go recruite channel and group up people that are fit you're needs

( The chance is bigger that you'll end up with OP tennos or Spam tennos in public than solo.

i dont make an big fuzz out of this ,, even when i cant stand Ember ,, i just deal with the fact everyone is welcome . and plays with everthing they like

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And what if I start a public lobby but then a Miragulor user joins? the Miragulor user has just kicked me out of a lobby that I started.

 

-- Well there aint such an thing as an kick option >.< dont try to make the story bigger than it is -- ( Something that isnt there dont try to make it one )

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'd advise you (and any other newcomers) to read the thread before posting kneejerk reactions

Well i just gave my opinion deal with it .. and iam not an newcomer if you think that 

and i dont give kneejerk reactions 

you havent see any kneejerk from me yet ---- > i mean that dont cry when people telling you the thruth

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Currilicious]

I have no problem with that setup.

If I join a pub and someone is doing that, great I just hang back, loot and chill.

If I want to play all Jason Bourne like, I go solo. 

I just don't see the point in demanding how others should play a game, that is for the most part free. If I want to boss people around, I go back to work and I get paid to boot.

[PatternistSlave]

2 hours ago, YUNoJump said:

Miragulor is very common in most mission types, I don't even play pub that much and I still understand how often this is a problem. Realistically there isn't much difference in missions other than the specific objective (which is often at a single fixed point), until you get there it's just killing enemies in your path, which Miragulor unreasonably outpaces everything else at.

Have you not played Nova or Frost or Excal or Mesa or Loki?  Hell Ember can clear an exterminate reasonably fast if that's how we're deciding the strength of frames now.

[DERPY_SMOOG]

3 hours ago, PatternistSlave said:

Have you not played Nova or Frost or Excal or Mesa or Loki?  Hell Ember can clear an exterminate reasonably fast if that's how we're deciding the strength of frames now.

those frame require some work to be made powerful. without a good mod set up ember is just a walking target. without a bunch of duration and speed mods loki is useless, mesa requires a good, well modded secondary to be really powerful and frost, well, frost is snow globed shaped pillar of the community. the point is that mirage can do it from level 1 with almost anything you put in her hands, and requires no real skill or work be put into making her OP. despite playing the play style i agree that it is a cheesy and cheap way to get thru things.

the core of this discussion is to figure out how to solve the ridiculousness of the mirage and simulor combo. the main problem is that she can do this with anything and the simulor is just the latest in a long list of things nobody wants mirage using. either simulor is a powerful weapon on there own but they are not over the top at all.

so something has to be done about mirage. short term solution? swap hall of mirrors with prism and make HoM her forth ability, lower the ability for the clones to draw fire to make her more of a glass cannon, and maybe make her clones only capable of dealing one damage type like radiation or something. OR make her clones do no damage and buff the fire drawing nature of them to be more defensive. Or maybe force mirage to only use melee in this mode?

i personally think hall of mirrors is the problem not the weapon she using. too many other things are just as bad in her hands

Edited January 12, 2017 by DERPY_SMOOG

[PatternistSlave]

31 minutes ago, DERPY_SMOOG said:

those frame require some work to be made powerful. without a good mod set up ember is just a walking target. without a bunch of duration and speed mods loki is useless, mesa requires a good, well modded secondary to be really powerful and frost, well, frost is snow globed shaped pillar of the community. the point is that mirage can do it from level 1 with almost anything you put in her hands, and requires no real skill or work be put into making her OP. despite playing the play style i agree that it is a cheesy and cheap way to get thru things.

the core of this discussion is to figure out how to solve the ridiculousness of the mirage and simulor combo. the main problem is that she can do this with anything and the simulor is just the latest in a long list of things nobody wants mirage using. either simulor is a powerful weapon on there own but they are not over the top at all.

so something has to be done about mirage. short term solution? swap hall of mirrors with prism and make HoM her forth ability, lower the ability for the clones to draw fire to make her more of a glass cannon, and maybe make her clones only capable of dealing one damage type like radiation or something. OR make her clones do no damage and buff the fire drawing nature of them to be more defensive. Or maybe force mirage to only use melee in this mode?

i personally think hall of mirrors is the problem not the weapon she using. too many other things are just as bad in her hands

Rhino then if you want a frame that needs almost no mods to utterly destroy the star map.  That doesn't make a frame good.  Most every frame can do that.  Mirage is not even top 10.  You're literally asking for her to not exist.  You all did the exact same thing with Valkyr and now she's complete trash.  Where you guys get these bizarre ideas  Say she could destroy sorties like you see her do random BS missions.  There is no such thing as KS in this game.  This is PvE.  You're not in competition with Mirage.  Why do you even care?

[DERPY_SMOOG]

9 minutes ago, PatternistSlave said:

Rhino then if you want a frame that needs almost no mods to utterly destroy the star map.  That doesn't make a frame good.  Most every frame can do that.  Mirage is not even top 10.  You're literally asking for her to not exist.  You all did the exact same thing with Valkyr and now she's complete trash.  Where you guys get these bizarre ideas  Say she could destroy sorties like you see her do random BS missions.  There is no such thing as KS in this game.  This is PvE.  You're not in competition with Mirage.  Why do you even care?

rhino needs health and armor mods to be OP and duration + power strength for stomp to really be OP. your example kind of proves my point. and your right almost any frame can be OP when used with skill and modded correctly.

i did not ask for her not to exist. i simply pointed out that the weapon she is using is not the problem, the cheese factor of the ability Hall of Mirrors is.

valkyrs changes where to make her ability more clear on what was going on. the negative damage backlash from hysteria was always present, the update just made it visible. making the ability a toggle was actually a better idea and was in fact not nerf at all. she is still the tanky ball of violence she has always been but now you actually have to watch what your doing.

the fact that mirage can wipe a mission before you even see an enemy is what giving people these bizarre ideas. some people want to play the game not have it played for them, putting them in direct competition with mirage. which is kind of the point of this whole thread.

so thats why i care :)

[PatternistSlave]

2 minutes ago, DERPY_SMOOG said:

rhino needs health and armor mods to be OP and duration + power strength for stomp to really be OP. your example kind of proves my point. and your right almost any frame can be OP when used with skill and modded correctly.

i did not ask for her not to exist. i simply pointed out that the weapon she is using is not the problem, the cheese factor of the ability Hall of Mirrors is.

valkyrs changes where to make her ability more clear on what was going on. the negative damage backlash from hysteria was always present, the update just made it visible. making the ability a toggle was actually a better idea and was in fact not nerf at all. she is still the tanky ball of violence she has always been but now you actually have to watch what your doing.

the fact that mirage can wipe a mission before you even see an enemy is what giving people these bizarre ideas. some people want to play the game not have it played for them, putting them in direct competition with mirage. which is kind of the point of this whole thread.

so thats why i care :)

It would just be some other frame if it wasn't Mirage.  I remember it being annoying having bosses killed before I even saw them, but that's an issue with the game, not Mirage.  Excal is a starter frame and can do the exact same thing.  See if this puts it into perspective.  I did the sortie today.  An exterminate and an assassinate.  Should be Mirage's bread and butter, right?  Not only did I not even consider using her, but no one in the two different random groups I was with did either.  I can't remember the last time I've even seen one.

Valkyr had her energy economy utterly destroyed and she's just flat out worse then every other tank now.