The Sicarus Prime is a perfect example of what DE should have done instead of giving us Rivens.

[Jackviator]

Title.

The Sicarus Prime used to go by many names; the "busted pea-shooter," "Suckarus Prime," the "joke weapon with no punchline," the "oh my god why are you using this thing it won't get you past Venus," etc. But now, it's viable in Sorties and whatnot once forma'd up, because DE finally got around to buffing its stats to reasonable levels.

(And yeah, I know, even the MK-1 Braton can be used in Sorties, but, well... let's put it this way. You can go about cutting down a tree in many different ways, but the first response of most logical people would not be to saw it in half with a butter knife, when there are chainsaws available. You certainly could do it that way, it would take much longer and be more inefficient, but you could. Thing is... what's the point?)

Anyway...

A couple of numbers being changed/increased, that's all it took. Just a second look at the weapon and how it works in the current damage/enemy scaling system, a bit of testing as to how far it would reasonably scale, a couple of tweaks on a spreadsheet, and bam, done. Weapon is now updated.

......So why the hell wasn't that done with all the older weapons, especially those that mainly rely on the obsolete, non-scaling method of just adding raw damage? The Tiberon, the Boltor, the Panthera, the Flux Rifle, the Seer, etc?

If DE wanted to "breathe new life" into these things, why not just, well, tweak a few stats on the older weapons, add a bit of crit chance here, a bit of status chance there? Why not do that instead of adding a complex new RNG-based system that only "breathes new life" into weapons if one is extremely lucky? Surely re-typing a few numbers on a spreadsheet would be simpler than this.

And it doesn't even fix certain weapons, even with good mods. No matter how powerful or "God-Like" your Detron or Panthera Riven is, well... the Detron is still the Detron. The Panthera is still the Panthera. They just won't scale well, because their base stats don't allow for it.

And all of this doesn't even go into how far this has set back the implementation of Damage 3.0, especially when you consider that +damage was added as a possible stat on Rivens. Wasn't DE talking at one point about how they wanted to get rid of "mandatory" mods like Hornet Strike, Serration, etc? So isn't the fact that they flip-flopped their stance on that only recently, once Rivens were out, just a little too convenient? Because if a Riven has +damage, and all the +damage mods were removed from the game with damage 3.0, then Rivens would take their place as the "mandatory" mods. So why bother removing them in the first place?

Point is, if they wanted to "breathe new life" into the guns, they shouldn't have gone for the Destiny levels of RNG layering we have now in the form of Riven mods, they should have just updated the weapons themselves.

Rivens have accomplished only one thing; a system of haves and have nots, where the possibility of certain weapons being able to be taken into Sorties/Raids, and be of actual use, relies solely on luck. (Or more accurately for a lot of people, the flow of Platinum). AKA, if you want to use a certain weapon, and you aren't lucky, you have to PAY, in order to avoid having a much, much harder time WINNING. (*cough* _{Was that subtle enough?})

...And no, before anyone says it, I didn't just post this because I haven't been lucky with my rolls, or not gotten any Riven mods from Sorties. I've rolled myself some excellent mods, that have made a few weapons I have much more powerful/viable. 

The problem is, I shouldn't have had to do that.

Edited January 23, 2017 by Jackviator

[Trichouette]

But you know, balancing is hard. Asking RNG to do it instead is easier

[Ciaus]

So much agreed. 

Even just a repass on some mechanics, especially now that alt-fire has been better implemented. 
Imagine the drakgoon with alt-fire switching between full and no charge with some stat upgrades. Suddenly so much better, no god-roll riven needed. 

An across the board status buff for beam weapons, multiply base status by ammo per second / 2 and call it a day. Suddenly a world of moderately good status weapons on a currently suffering weapon type opens up. 

It's not hard, and rivens are a mess. 

Rivens or no, balance passes need to happen for stats and mechanics. Not everything has to be good, Sicarus is NOT akstilleto by any means, it just has to be usable and comfortable.

[(PSN)Mofojokers]

I really wished they had gone this path. They could of spent a few months reworking all weapons while the art team produces skins for profits.

Some rivens can't save some weapons like panthera.😧

[Siekier]

18 minutes ago, Trichouette said:

But you know, balancing is hard. Asking RNG to do it instead is easier

Exactly.

 

Rivens are just another prime example of laziness.

Why bother with changing numbers for weapons that need tweaking when you can release mods relying on pure randomness?

Job done (not really) and succesfull source of income, two birds killed with one stone.

[Xekrin]

23 minutes ago, Jackviator said:

...So why the hell wasn't that done with all the older weapons

My guess is the sheer number of older weapons that require such changes is fairly overwhelming and quite intimidating to tackle.  Some would actually require a fair bit more than just a few number tweaks.  Mutalist Quanta, for example, is just sad and awful IMO and needs an entirely new revised mechanic to be good.

Other than that, I like the idea of rivens but they are far from finely polished though.  So many ways to make rivens better that they don't seem to want to work through to make them better.  As for straightup stat tweaks, I'd like to see that as well.

The variety of weaponry should be how they function, operate and feel when used.  If every weapon had decent stats we'd at least have the opportunity to choose based on preference rather than what does the most damage, even if the weapon itself isn't something we dislike personally.

For example, I really dislike burst weapons, like well the Burston, even if I had a god-like riven and it were far superior to every weapon in damage, I wouldn't use it.

 

[S.Faiz]

Buffing those old weapons would be simple and all those people ranting about new content would still be ranting (they still do ) so what could possibly divert their attention??

Someone from DE:a new type of mod??

then giving it simply would be too simple and wouldn't be "DE" style,so what to do??

Another fellow from DE: lets leave it to an RNG to give them a riven,on top of that another RNG to give them a riven of rifle/pistol/shotgun/melee,on top of that another RNG to give riven for your favourite weapon and add another RNG for stats.

Everyone in DE:...and so the stories continues...

[DeadScream]

+1 (or +2 depending on multishot being or not on my +1 riven)

[Jackviator]

31 minutes ago, Trichouette said:

But you know, balancing is hard. Asking RNG to do it instead is easier

Have a +1 for making me genuinely irl LOL and have everyone in this library look at me like I'm nuts. 

[clemza]

32 minutes ago, Trichouette said:

But you know, balancing is hard. Asking RNG to do it instead is easier

Well the PVP team is doing a good job then, because in conclave its kinda balanced :X

[SpeedOfLightPuncher]

+1

[WhyNotBro]

Rivens ain't about balancing anything. They exist to make us farm Kuva and shut up about "balance" for a while. Also, good way to leech the money.

About your post...good thoughts, you have my voice :D

[-N7-Leonhart]

So everything should have +20% base crit chance and +0.5/1x crit multiplier?

"Balance" "Diversity" "Weapon personality"

Edited January 15, 2017 by -BM-Leonhart

[Trichouette]

13 minutes ago, clemza said:

Well the PVP team is doing a good job then, because in conclave its kinda balanced :X

Yeah but in conclave they took every weapon and frame OUT of the game, and then implemented them one by one while balancing them.

DE should do the same, but players wouldn't like it because it takes a lot of time before the content you like is available again.

[Tizodd]

1 hour ago, Jackviator said:

...if you want to use a certain weapon, and you aren't lucky, you have to PAY, in order to avoid having a much, much harder time WINNING. (*cough* Was that subtle enough?)...

This^ is the reason rivens were added...and the player base took the bait hook-line-and-sinker.  Rivens selling for 3k+ plat helps [DE]'s bottom line because someone, at some point, bought that plat with real money.  Actual balancing doesn't make money for [DE].

[Ciaus]

1 hour ago, -BM-Leonhart said:

So everything should have +20% base crit chance and +0.5/1x crit multiplier?

"Balance" "Diversity" "Weapon personality"

You can buff pure damage alone significantly and have a raw damage weapon. 
You can buff firerate and reload now that carrier has ammo mutation and make some weapons good as bullet-hoses. 
You can buff status, AoE effects, make charge mechanics quicker / more fluid / based off alt-fire. 

There are a couple of distinct ways for a weapon to be good. Make older weapons fill out their POTENTIAL better. Sicarus had pretty generic stats that were just hella outdated, so it got a very standard buff. But beam weapons without IPS? You'd implement a totally different set of changes to keep their personality while allowing them a role. A buff to a terrible weapon doesn't have to make it good all-round like Soma or something, it just has to give it a real place. Flux Rifle is a great example of a weapon that could be so great on Nekros if it was just a bit more solid in damage and with a proper status system on beam weapons. 

[Jackviator]

2 hours ago, -BM-Leonhart said:

So everything should have +20% base crit chance and +0.5/1x crit multiplier?

"Balance" "Diversity" "Weapon personality"

Well, I can tell you that raw damage at least is outdated, and doesn't scale well. So we're left with three other options: status, crit chance, or a hybrid of the two that can occasionally lead to more potent procs, ("critical procs,"). Due to how the damage system works, this is what we have to work with, damage-type wise, because raw-damage weapons fall off fast. Besides, weapon mechanics themselves give them enough personality as-is. Look at the Soma Prime vs the Javlok, for example.

And no, I wasn't saying I want everything to be a critical weapon. ......In fact, where did you even get that idea from? That was not my message at all. I clearly stated the devs could buff either crit or status chance here or there to make certain weapons more usable.

For example, they could buff the status chance on the Boar Prime from 30% to 40% and it would make it much easier to reach 100% status, without having to sacrifice damage potential for the sake of adding more status chance to the weapon.

Edited January 15, 2017 by Jackviator

[DeadScream]

There's another option : game changing or at least original passives !

[peterc3]

23 minutes ago, DeadScream said:

There's another option : game changing or at least original passives !

The issue many people have with suggestions like this is that they are vague, bordering on useless. Mainly it just starts as a jumping point to hating the devs for not being "original" enough.

 

58 minutes ago, Jackviator said:

Well, I can tell you that raw damage at least is outdated

Strange, I could swear I've seen lots of focus on Slash damage in builds.

[DreamsmithJane]

Nah. First of all, Sicarus Prime was buffed because it's a Prime, and it was weak. Now, it's one of the best weapons in its category, and they definitely shouldn't be doing that to every underused weapon. We have a massive arsenal, and there are very few weapons that can't become sortie-viable with the right mods, ignoring Rivens. Given that endgame requires a power level that is more than attainable with most weapons, and there are frames that can make literally any weapon viable, there is nothing wrong with some weapons just being better than others. You don't need to spend multiple hours in survival to "win", and it basically doesn't even help you when compared with running multiple missions of the same total length. Even endless fissure missions end up taking longer in later rounds because of higher TTK of higher level enemies, and the rewards are underwhelming. So no, at the level where a player can be considered "winning", they do not need to pay (or be lucky) to avoid having a hard time. Sorties and raids are not hard, if a player is prepared.

That said, there are some weapons that could probably stand a straight buff. But most underused weapons with strong Riven dispositions are already viable, and I don't think Sicarus Prime's treatment is a good model for them at all.

[Jackviator]

1 hour ago, peterc3 said:

Strange, I could swear I've seen lots of focus on Slash damage in builds.

Slash-based weapons mostly rely on the Bleed status effect, which does endlessly-scaling Finisher damage to enemies, bypasses shields, etc. So in actuality, it's the damage type used in combination with the status effect that people use to be effective.

Basically, if you took a Slash-based weapon with a 0% chance at proccing status effects, it would actually become pretty ineffective pretty fast. It needs the status proc to be truly effective against Sortie levels.

Edited January 15, 2017 by Jackviator

[Tyrian3k]

Before, the balance of weapons was arbitrary, with rivens, it has become random.

Breathing life into old underused weapons is quite useless if players don't get any Riven mods for the underused weapons they like.

5 hours ago, Xekrin said:

Some would actually require a fair bit more than just a few number tweaks.

Rivens only solve the number tweaks, though, and all the weapons that need a rework on their design and mechanics still need that rework anyways, so what's the point here?

 

[Jackviator]

2 hours ago, DreamsmithJane said:

there is nothing wrong with some weapons just being better than others.

I agree, some weapons should be better than others. Primes should be better than their base counterparts, Vandals, Wraiths and Syndicate weapons should be better versions of their respective base versions, MK-1 weapons should only really be expected to be used for a little bit after the tutorial, etc.

Thing is, (aside from MK-1 weapons), I think that all weapons should be at the very least Sortie-viable if you're willing to put the time and effort into formaing it up. That is to say, if built right, it shouldn't take too much trouble to get you through a Sortie when relying on your weapons. No weapon should just be "mastery fodder;" that's just throwaway content, which is never good.

[Xekrin]

1 hour ago, Tyrian3k said:

Before, the balance of weapons was arbitrary, with rivens, it has become random.

Breathing life into old underused weapons is quite useless if players don't get any Riven mods for the underused weapons they like.

Rivens only solve the number tweaks, though, and all the weapons that need a rework on their design and mechanics still need that rework anyways, so what's the point here?

 

Not sure what you are asking, my entire reply was the point, breaking it up and questioning a small portion when its answer is in the other parts that I wrote doesn't help me know where you are lacking clarity.

The point though is even if they did have a strong desire to make their way through each and every outdated weapon and bump a few numbers it wouldn't solve the problem completely.  Also the amounts that rivens provide wouldn't be nearly as reflected as the amounts they'd like bump them.

Rivens help a little but not much and its the base stats that need bumping to make rivens useful.  Rivens help in one area though, they provide players with a clear cut picture of which weapons really really need base stats increased.

OP said we need these stat bumps instead of rivens, I'm saying we could use both.  

 

[W3zeer]

It's a double win for DE. They don't have to commit ressources to rebalance and, even better, make plat with riven and riven slot sales. So that's why ;)