Riven Mods Will Not Work With Current Melee

[(PSN)Crixus044]

I like the riven system, and even though I was worried about the secondary rivens, I was happy to see it come, but for melee, this is going to be hell. Melee builds as it stands become way too restricting, and there are too many mods already in game for melee that could simply use a buff, as well as melee weapons simply getting a buff. Glaive Prime, scythe, heavy melee weapons got buffs that made them all viable. Then we got shadow debt mods, rathuum mods, index mods, and now glast gambit mods. These have all made melee an exceptional category, but unfortunately, we only have 8 slots, and builds have become VERY limited. The last thing melee 

If the whole idea of riven is to make bad melee good, then buff the melee weapons, buff some of the random mods that nobody uses anymore, or buff some of the long forgotten syndicate weapon augments that didn't really help melee weapons all that much. Adding more mods, especially mods as unique and powerful as riven mods, would overpack melee.

If you're going to add melee riven mods, you are going to have to A. Buff the weapons and nerf the current mods, or B. Add an extra slot, like an exilus slot that's for weapon specific mods. This includes rathuum mods, index mods, weapon augments, riven mods, and covert lethality. This does not include shadow debt mods and regular damage mods. Either one to me is fine, or if you don't think these two ideas would work, then I'm fine with anything different, but as it stands, melee cannot get riven.

Please understand that melee is my favorite aspect of this game ever since I started playing and all I want is the betterment of it.

[direcyphre]

Pretty sure that is the basic idea of 'builds'; you can't get away with anything universal, so you're better off playing to vulnerabilities or your own strengths at using your preferred melee. I'd say melee only differs slightly from other weapon mods because their builds aren't as straightforward (currently) as damage/multishot/element/sidebuff (or adapt for gun weaknesses). At most, the multiple stats of rivens are simply going to make it easier to fit more stats onto a weapon, just like they already do for other weapon types.

[bluepheonix13]

I don't understand your argument, Rivens can have all the stats other mods can also have, so why would it "overpack melee"? If I get a Riven with 50% Attack Speed and 100% Heat damage, I'll abandon Primed Fury and Molten Impact for the Riven and some other mod. This is what is called build diversity and I like it. You can build for crit, for status, for speed, for slow and painful strikes, raw damage, everything you want and Rivens are only gonna add to that. 

[SolaireTheSunWalker]

The point of rivens are to allow you to build the weapon how ever you want it I don't see how all of a sudden melee rivens are going to start making melee builds restrictive I don't agree with that at all 

[-N7-Leonhart]

1 hour ago, (PS4)Crixus044 said:

-snip-

Very true, but adding something more to the modding system of the melee weapons is a bad idea. Too many useless melee weapons to be made meaningful by completely randomized Rivens.

The best way to approach them is to give a Riven for each weapon class. That way, every Riven you could get would still be meaningful.

Edited January 21, 2017 by -BM-Leonhart

[(PSN)Crixus044]

8 minutes ago, bluepheonix13 said:

I don't understand your argument, Rivens can have all the stats other mods can also have, so why would it "overpack melee"? If I get a Riven with 50% Attack Speed and 100% Heat damage, I'll abandon Primed Fury and Molten Impact for the Riven and some other mod. This is what is called build diversity and I like it. You can build for crit, for status, for speed, for slow and painful strikes, raw damage, everything you want and Rivens are only gonna add to that. 

While correct in theory, in actual practice, this falls apart. Currently, shadow debt mods have become the standard of every build, and with good reason, because they are the most powerful mods in game.

Let's break it down. Pressure point and is primed counterpart are a must. Drifting contact or body count is next. Then add an element combo, whether it be a nightmare mod or event mod. You got four slots left. Add in a primed fury or berserker, that's three. You want crit, add in blood rush and organ shatter. You want status, add in weeping wounds and another speed mod or a glast gambit mod. This leaves you with a single mod slot. If it's a dagger, you gotta have covert lethality. If it has a weapon augment, then you'd put that. If you want to survive on your melee, you put life strike. Now add in riven. Not much riven would do, unless you get a combination powerful enough to replace one of these, in which case you could simply buff the weapon itself.

It's quite complicated to write out, but there are so many weapons, so many mods, that riven would just either be useless, or complete overkill. You'd need a very specific riven type to make a certain weapon useful.  It may make some people able to use weapons they normally wouldn't use, but not everybody would get this opportunity. A simpler method to make riven more viable for all people and all weapons would be to make it more important, as in make riven of any type have a noticeable effect, while not buffing melee weapons already powerful by an extreme amount. So reduce the effects of current mods. I am not in favor of this possible change as it would be a general nerf to all melee and a reliance of sorts on riven, which is also bad. But, this would get the job done.

My second option was to add a weapon specific slot. This would be perfect, as it would not change up your build all that much, no matter what weapon it is, and would instead allow riven to increase weapons that DE believes need the increase the most. Stuff like galatine prime do get a buff, but since they're faint disposition, it's not by much. Stuff like a Prisma Skana, would use it's augment and a riven. 

[(PSN)Crixus044]

13 minutes ago, -BM-Leonhart said:

Very true, but adding something more to the modding system of the melee weapons is a bad idea. Too many useless melee weapons to be made meaningful by completely randomized Rivens.

The best way to approach them is to give a Riven for each weapon class. That way, every Riven you could get would still be meaningful.

I love the idea, but an issue with this is that most weapon categories have at least one weapon that's extremely viable. Heavy blade has 3 top tier weapons, so it might have a faint disposition, but this means that the gram would be destroyed. Swords have broken war, prisma skana, and dakra prime, making them also possibly faint,  but jaw sword, mire, cronus, pangolin sword, and ether sword are still going to be useless. Staves only have tipedo to be viable, so it'd be strong disposition, but this had a chance of making the tipedo ridiculouslyrics strong.

Edited January 22, 2017 by (PS4)Crixus044

[-N7-Leonhart]

25 minutes ago, (PS4)Crixus044 said:

I love the idea, but an issue with this is that most weapon categories have at least one weapon that's extremely viable. Heavy blade has 3 top tier weapons, so it might have a faint disposition, but this means that the gram would be destroyed. Swords have broken war, prisma skana, and dakra prime, making them also possibly faint,  but jaw sword, mire, cronus, pangolin sword, and ether sword are still going to be useless. Staves only have tipedo to be viable, so it'd be strong disposition, but this had a chance of making the tipedo ridiculouslyrics strong.

True indeed. They may find a way to adjust the stats for each equipped weapon, but that may as well not be possible, from what they have said.

However, I can't help but think that everyone will use the most powerful weapon in a certain class regardless, and personalized Riven mods for each weapon variant from a class will be pretty much meaningless.

[taiiat]

so what you're saying is that Rivens will make the biggest positive impact on Melee Weapons, where Players already have to actually choose between Mods because there are more than 8 choices that give good results, and will have to look to Rivens to help consolidate Mod Slots or to increase some Bonuses while sacrificing others.

which then sounds like the closest to perfect that will be experienced for any Category that Riven Mods will exist for (some other future Category(ies) are going to be rather an exceptional disaster due to how Stats for those things are balanced).

 

yno, if we don't include that the Multipliers for their Stats has absolutely nothing to do with actual Equipment Stats.

Edited January 22, 2017 by taiiat

[(PSN)Crixus044]

9 hours ago, -BM-Leonhart said:

However, I can't help but think that everyone will use the most powerful weapon in a certain class regardless, and personalized Riven mods for each weapon variant from a class will be pretty much meaningless.

Then the whole point of riven in melee would again be negated and meaningless. The point of riven is to make unused weapons used more, so even though having melee classtance rivens is awesome and simplifies getting rivens for the weapon you want (I would love that), the gram would still never be used more when you have the regular galatine, scindo prime, war, and galatine prime able to use the same mod. Thus unless riven disposition is changed to be effected by the weapon itself, this will not work.

If DE could just make the weapon itself affect the mod stats, I would be in paradise. This should be for all rivens, not just melee. You should make a thread on that idea and expand upon it. 

[(XBOX)ZenithLord 42]

I somewhat understand your argument op, but I feel like you're forgetting about Riven dispositions for weapons. As it stands now I don't see much difference adding Rivens to melee as when they first implemented them on rifles... 

I still feel like all of the weapons with a corresponding STRONG Riven disposition should have just been buffed to begin with. (Similar to the recent Sicarus Prime damage increase.) It seems D.E. really just made more work for themselves with all the differing dispositions and various perks associated with each weapon/Riven combo... 

[(PSN)Zashukitsune]

I just want to see what -100% attack speed will look like on melee.

Will we just...not attack?

[AcceptYourDeath]

My only concern with Melee Rivens is how insanly good most melee weapons will be. I am already wondering why I should bother with reloading ANY weapon when I can kill 20 dudes in a row in full sprint on melee mode.

[(PSN)Crixus044]

1 hour ago, (PS4)Zashukitsune said:

I just want to see what -100% attack speed will look like on melee.

Will we just...not attack?

Plasma Sword with crimson dervish and spoiled strike with negative attack speed riven. That would be one hell of a sight. Grab a radiation proc and have your buddy use a Slowva and frost.

[Chroia]

On 1/22/2017 at 1:09 AM, SolaireTheSunWalker said:

The point of rivens are to allow you to build the weapon how ever you want it

As long as you have exactly no control over what your riven gives, I'm going to have to say 'Um, no. It's not'.

[SolaireTheSunWalker]

9 minutes ago, Chroia said:

As long as you have exactly no control over what your riven gives, I'm going to have to say 'Um, no. It's not'.

Just because we don't have control of the stats doesnt change the fact weapons can be built how you want it. What I said wasn't wrong literally the point of riven mods are to allow you to build the weapon how you see fit i.e status/crit/raw damage. Obviously there is rng invovled but you can change the way everyone builds the gun simply with one riven and easily make a stat viable 

Edited January 24, 2017 by SolaireTheSunWalker

[Darkmatt3r]

LEt the update drop, dont judge anything if it will work or not before release . Devs are not kids . they will figure stuff out & balance along the way.

/thread

[hukurokuju5]

De needs to diversify weapon class mechanics instead of just bandaid rivens that only change stats

[Darkmoone1]

To an extent, the OP is right. Some mods such as the ones that increase the combo counter, Body Count and Drifting Contact, don't even have to be in the game if DE just increased the base timer on the combo counter. That would already decrease the amount of required mods by one or two slots on a multitude of builds. 

However, if you roll into rivens correctly you can have a spot or two removed entirely. Say you got Lightning damage and attack speed. That means you can already remove current lightning and attack speed mods to leave yourself with one spare if implementing the riven. 

Make no mistake, there is a strict build issue. It's just that Rivens aren't so much beneficial and they're certainly not detrimental. If anything, I'll just be indifferent to it, just as I am to primary and secondary rivens.

Edited January 24, 2017 by Darkmoone1

[Chroia]

11 hours ago, SolaireTheSunWalker said:

you can change the way everyone builds the gun simply with one riven and easily make a stat viable 

Let me see if I understand you correctly:
You're saying that - if you ignore the whole 'getting the exactly right stats on the exactly right weapon' part of Rivens, once you have the exact Riven you want, it lets you mod any weapon any way you want?

Sorry, I'm going to have to disagree.
Riven bonuses, like most mod bonuses, are a percent of the base. If the weapon doesn't have the base stats to support a modding direction with the mods we have, Rivens won't change that appreciably.

Without using extreme/theoretical examples (Crit Miter, status or crit Tiberon, etc.), and without digging too deeply into my screenshots, this won't turn the Atomos into a status weapon, this won't turn the Ogris into a much better status weapon that just 4*60% will, and this won't turn the Ogris into a crit-viable weapon.

At best, they let a weapon do something it already did - better, if by stacking modifiers higher, if by consolidating effects to free up mod slots.
At worst, they're utterly useless.

Edited January 24, 2017 by Chroia

[Ciaus]

The damage of melee is already insaaaaane. 
I'm scared, rivens are not something I like for the game, and for melee it's gonna be a mess. Let's get atterax riven with +100% reach, damage and attack speed why not.