Questions and concerns regarding new Guidelines!

[MagPrime]

Okay, real talk. I'm going to delete the stuff I'm not responding to.

Here is a bit of common sense that will help make the Warframe community an entertaining and interesting place to be.

Bit condescending, isn't this?  It implies that the majority of the forum doesn't have this common sense, when in reality, DE's idea of common sense is different from everyone elses.  I mean, I doubt my brand of common sense is identical to [DE]Danielle's, nor is our definition of common sense identical to anyone reading this.  Hek, I'm sure someone will say that it's common sense to NOT make this post, but I think it is.

1) RESPECT - Let’s respect each-other and have fun. Respecting people means not insulting anyone’s race, religion, sexual orientation, skill-level, platform preference, or any other possible way to make someone feel uncomfortable in the Warframe community.

1a) BULLYING - Our forums are a place of understanding, and players with disabilities, handicaps, language barriers, etc should not be treated any differently. There is zero tolerance for bullying in our forums. Picking on, or pointing out, others’ flaws is anything but constructive. 

What if it's done in a positive manner?  I have seen posts where someone says "You have a point, but you're tackling every minute point someone makes and then counter arguing it, which derails the entire topic.  Try to focus on just x"  That's pointing out a flaw, but it's not negative and it is constructive.

2) QUALITY STANDARDS – Use our forums to talk to us and talk to each other in a constructive and respectful way that encourages interaction and thoughtful discussion. Stay on-topic, be constructive and use descriptive Topic titles. Don’t rage/rant post, name and shame, have misleading topic titles, post spam, advertisements, unreleased Design Council information, pornography or any other inappropriate, offensive or irrelevant content to the Forums in text, image, or video form. We will delete/edit it, and there will be consequences as per our warnings.

This is vague wording, since "any other inappropriate, offensive or irrelevant content" is subjective.  Are the com Mods going to handle this on a case by case basis?  Is there a secondary set of guidelines the Com Mods have to follow when handling a situation where the posting party honestly and sincerely doesn't believe their content falls under either of the three listed above?

4) PROFANITY – Keep it clean people! Any amount of swearing and/or vulgarity, even if censored, will not be tolerated.  

What about self censorship?  What about wooden swearing?  i.e., dangnabit  What about vulgarity?  I was talking about my bra in another thread, does that count?  What about anatomically correct descriptions?  Or even slang ones?  What about abbreviations like bs or SOL?

5) PRIVACY – Do not publicly post any form of real life information of yourself or another user on the forums. Real life information includes, name, phone number, address, email address, private/email message content, personal pictures, IP address and anything else that may identify you or a user to the community in some way.

What does this mean for Off Topic threads like The Face Behind The Name v2?  Or the Pets of the Tenno thread?

6) COMPLAINTS – We will not tolerate inappropriate, aggressive, or hostile complaints posted on the Forums. If you have a complaint about a player, report the issue. If you have a complaint about how your behavior on the forums has been moderated, send the Moderator a private message. They will do what they can to sort out any issues. 

Are you going to apply some kind of guideline for this?  What someone else deems hostile can come across as a joke to others.

And this is a two parter, I've underlined the specific part this is replying to; what if you report something and nothing is done, for hours to days?  There have been times I've reported a post that, even to me, was out of line and violated multiple lines of the CoC but that comment was left untouched.  Do I submit another report and risk getting a warning point for "abusing" the report feature?

Will you be bringing on more Community Moderators to help handle the incoming volume of violations, complaints and questions that these new guidelines will create?

Edited January 27, 2017 by Noamuth

[AerinSol]

"PM a mod"

Yeah...do-able when banned.

[MagPrime]

1 minute ago, AerinSol said:

"PM a mod"

Yeah...do-able when banned.

Yeah, I never understood that.  "I've banned you, so if you have any questions, send me a PM!  Oh wait, being banned means you can't send me a PM"  And Support doesn't really help either, they side with the Com Mods from what I've heard, so you can't even petition for contact through them.

[Tesseract7777]

Kind of interesting timing how some strict new guidelines come into place shortly after an uproar about the Hema happens (and still hasn't subsided). Makes you wonder... 

[notlamprey]

2 minutes ago, Noamuth said:

Okay, real talk. I'm going to delete the stuff I'm not responding to.

Here is a bit of common sense that will help make the Warframe community an entertaining and interesting place to be.

Bit condescending, isn't this?  It implies that the majority of the forum doesn't have this common sense, when in reality, DE's idea of common sense is different from everyone elses.  I mean, I doubt my brand of common sense is identical to [DE]Danielle's, nor is our definition of common sense identical to anyone reading this.  Hek, I'm sure someone will say that it's common sense to NOT make this post, but I think it is.

Quoting that specifically, because I think it's the most alarming.

I agree that this highlights a gap between "common sense" as DE sees it, and "common sense" as I have always practiced it.

Wasn't it Benjamin Franklin who said that (paraphrasing) common sense isn't common at all? Everyone defines it differently, and leaning on that extremely subjective term is a recipe for a bad time.

There are some other problems, but I already have a clan Discord server blowing up with other topics and I can only tackle one thing at a time here.

[DeMonkey]

13 minutes ago, notlamprey said:

That's fair, according to the everyman's "common sense" position, except...

DE get to define what is "profanity," as well as what constitutes "censored profanity." There's a lot of wiggle room for them to expand the list of "non-constructive language" beyond the boundaries any of us might use.

It's not time to break out the panic basket necessarily, but I'm a little bothered by the wording.

Indeed. To the best of my knowledge "Crap" isn't considered a curse (certainly not a bad one) in America/Canada. On the other hand it's a curse where from.

What if something is acceptable over here, but not over there and I say it by accident? What if I'm not sure so I censor what I say just in case?

Is all of that immediately punishable?

[AerinSol]

On 27/01/2017 at 9:02 PM, Noamuth said:

Yeah, I never understood that.  "I've banned you, so if you have any questions, send me a PM!  Oh wait, being banned means you can't send me a PM"  And Support doesn't really help either, they side with the Com Mods from what I've heard, so you can't even petition for contact through them.

Also they don't view most messages. Even the important ones. One of mine started as, "Copyright Infringement..." and it still hasn't been viewed. By both mods I PM'd.

[AerinSol]

1 minute ago, DeMonkey said:

Indeed. To the best of my knowledge "Crap" isn't considered a curse (certainly not a bad one) in America/Canada. On the other hand it's a curse where from.

What if something is acceptable over here, but not over there and I say it by accident? What if I'm not sure so I censor what I say just in case?

Is all of that immediately punishable?

I'm %!&ish and guess what?

      ^

Also, how will saying bloody go? That is worse than saying F-and four other letters in England.

Edited January 27, 2017 by AerinSol

[MagPrime]

I really hope someone actually responds to my post, would like to know how to proceed. 

Honestly feel the new guidelines are more of a trap.

[MagPrime]

On 27/01/2017 at 9:07 PM, AerinSol said:

-Snip-

Yeah.  But that also depends on the popularity of the Com Mod and their level of interest in responding to PM's.  There are a handful that I PM because I know they're not as well known and read their PM's.

A better PM system would be nice too. I'd love to be able to send a group PM.

[Datsher]

25 minutes ago, Noamuth said:

 

Will you be bringing on more Community Moderators to help handle the incoming volume of violations, complaints and questions that these new guidelines will create?

Hopefully. And hopefully these new ones won't be too zealous with their work.

 

25 minutes ago, Noamuth said:

4) PROFANITY – Keep it clean people! Any amount of swearing and/or vulgarity, even if censored, will not be tolerated.  

What about self censorship?  What about wooden swearing?  i.e., dangnabit

It will most likely just depend on the mood of the commod

[AerinSol]

5 minutes ago, Noamuth said:

I really hope someone actually responds to my post, would like to know how to proceed. 

Honestly feel the new guidelines are more of a trap.

I do wonder how they will explain what "aggressive" behavior is. I know 4 people that use cursing language every 2-6 words because that is how they grew up. There are others that like to be direct in communicating yet people take offense to that.

I myself call people thick-skulled immediately when they do not listen when something has been properly explained to them. But it's not an insult. It's a conversational way of speech patterns on reaction.

[MagPrime]

1 minute ago, AerinSol said:

I do wonder how they will explain what "aggressive" behavior is. I know 4 people that use cursing language every 2-6 words because that is how they grew up. There are others that like to be direct in communicating yet people take offense to that.

I myself call people thick-skulled immediately when they do not listen when something has been properly explained to them. But it's not an insult. It's a conversational way of speech patterns on reaction.

I've used ignorant when talking to people, and coming from me, it's not an insult.  The definition of ignorant, in layman, is someone who doesn't know.  I'm told it's rather offensive to tell people they don't know something using that single word, but to me, it's simply the best word for the situation. Because it's accurate, they don't know.

[MagPrime]

4 minutes ago, Skycook3y said:

Hopefully. And hopefully these new ones won't be too zealous with their work.

 

It will most likely just depend on the mood of the commod

imo, if a Com Mods decisions are made based on mood, they shouldn't be a Com Mod.

I've been a Com Mod on other sites, I know it's a hard, draining job, but one really shouldn't allow their personal feelings dictate how a community member is moderated.  It kills any trust and authority you have as a Com Mod once people realize punishment is handed out arbitrarily and not in adherence to established rules and guidelines.

[notlamprey]

Info / update (?)

I was just hit with the "confirm you agree" screen, and found myself slightly annoyed that the page was too long for a single screenshot.

Also: "rats, I'm not special."

_{we can say 'rats,' right?}

[MagPrime]

1 minute ago, notlamprey said:

Info / update (?)

I was just hit with the "confirm you agree" screen, and found myself slightly annoyed that the page was too long for a single screenshot.

Also: "rats, I'm not special."

_{we can say 'rats,' right?}

Yeah, same.

[AerinSol]

There is this thing to get past surveys...

Can the guidelines be updated to explain some of our concerns? What should I change the title to since this is a discussion thread now?

[MagPrime]

Just now, AerinSol said:

There is this thing to get past surveys...

Can the guidelines be updated to explain some of our concerns? What should I change the title to since this is a discussion thread now?

Questions and concerns regarding the new Guidelines.

[HyokaChan]

Quote

1b) DEVELOPER BASHING – Let’s face it, we aren’t perfect, we know this – we’re humans making a game. We work hard and read the forums with earnest care, so any insults will be cleaned up on the spot and not tolerated. Constructive feedback is encouraged and key to us improving the game.

Unfortunately it seems that constructive feedback goes in one ear and out the other without so much as a word (like continuous weapon mechanics among several other topics but obviously you know which one I care about) - and the only way to finally provoke some action is to dev bash.

 

Equally unfortunately, that action is also the removal of said feedback or alteration.

 

Proposal: A new "[DE]xxx" has read this" label in the feedback forum. Don't want it known you read it? Just log out and browse, or do so from a mobile phone that isn't signed in.

Does it mean they can simply load the page for formality's sakes and just close it and never give it a chance? Yes. However, it's better than nothing. As of recent, it's general consensus that the "DE listens to their community!" back from when they were starting out has long become a thing of the past.

 

Show you care again, DE.

Edited January 27, 2017 by HyokaChan

[DeMonkey]

46 minutes ago, AerinSol said:

I'm %!&ish and guess what?

      ^

Also, how will saying bloody go? That is worse than saying F-and four other letters in England.

My Grandma gave me such a talking to when I was young for saying 'bloody', same for 'sodding'.

I have no idea how those words are viewed in Canada though. 

[MagPrime]

It is rather difficult to get the attention of the staff these days.  Most of the good feedback topics are drowned out by complaint threads, threads that should have been merged or just flat out misplaced threads.

I would like to see an increase of our Com Mods, so that they have the time to patrol the forums and send feedback to the DEv's about worthwhile topics, like they did back when we had the Hot Topics sub-forum.

 

[MagPrime]

1 hour ago, AerinSol said:

(Seriously no clue what to put here.)

Could just quote relevant posts into the OP, so no one has to dig through what looks like off topic comments.

[AerinSol]

Just now, DeMonkey said:

My Grandma gave me such a talking to when I was young for saying 'bloody', same for 'sodding'.

I have no idea how those words are viewed in Canada though. 

I know this is going to sound odd coming from someone of the Jews (not going to give this up DE) but there should be an identifier for countries to assists mods.

A perfect example but more direct than 'bloody' is the "C" word for females. Perfectly fine in Europe. It's like their "B" word. In the states however, you can get close to getting sucker-punched. And both are perfectly fine conversational words to use.

[AerinSol]

And done full editing.

[Cyborg-Rox]

I'm pretty sure DE takes their time to read through every constructive feedback topic , and in my opinion, they're FAR better with communicating with their community than a lot of other developers. It's just that they aren't that many people, and the Warframe playerbase has grown so much over the years.