Can we please stop this thought that Mirage is the only thing that makes Synoid Simulor OP?

[(PSN)Crixus044]

On 2/22/2017 at 2:25 PM, Chipputer said:

The only other one that reliably can is Loki with his disarm augment, but I'm not even sure on that because Loki's radiation procs act really strangely.

Oberon is 100% guaranteed to turn them off with the simple press of one button. Other frames generally have to rely on chance procs or use weapons that are overall less efficient with 100% status radiation against Infested, which is usually a bad idea in the long run.

Nyx is also a guarantee because all her abilities are about confusing and turning enemies against eachother. Chaos is basically a long term radiation proc, and mind control can bring those enemy auras to allies. Psychic Bolts applies a radiation proc as well. Vauban's concuss grenade is also a guarantees radiaiton proc and noise deafener. So Oberon, Loki, Vauban, and Nyx are the only aura disablers with Nyx the only ally aura enabler.

Anyways, back on topic. Mirage is powerful and with some weapons, is even more powerful. She doesn't cross the op threshold with this circumstance only. With the simulor, she is just a beast and arguably crosses that op threshold, so the real question is how to maintain mirage's power and the simulor's power while separating the two from extreme multiplication.

[Chipputer]

12 hours ago, (PS4)Crixus044 said:

Chaos is basically a long term radiation proc

Does her Chaos act like a radiation proc? I might need to go test that one.

[(PSN)Crixus044]

33 minutes ago, Chipputer said:

Does her Chaos act like a radiation proc? I might need to go test that one.

Basically yes with some differences. Radiation confuses enemies to attack eachother for the proc duration. Chaos does exactly this over its entire duration, but if your using say condition overload or the rakta dark dagger, you will not get the status benefits because it is not a status effect unlike radiation. There was a theory that chaos causes enemies to prioritize eachother over players, which would make it a step above radiation procs, but there has been no evidence to support this. Other than that, radiation and chaos are identical. Also, naramon's mind spike is basically a short range endless confusion effect. 

[ChuckMaverick]

1 hour ago, (PS4)Crixus044 said:

Basically yes with some differences. Radiation confuses enemies to attack eachother for the proc duration. Chaos does exactly this over its entire duration, but if your using say condition overload or the rakta dark dagger, you will not get the status benefits because it is not a status effect unlike radiation. There was a theory that chaos causes enemies to prioritize eachother over players, which would make it a step above radiation procs, but there has been no evidence to support this. Other than that, radiation and chaos are identical. Also, naramon's mind spike is basically a short range endless confusion effect. 

Also a range + duration build with the Chaos Sphere augment will allow you to CC several areas of the map, even for new spawns, while you're somewhere else.

[(PSN)Crixus044]

2 hours ago, ChuckMaverick said:

Also a range + duration build with the Chaos Sphere augment will allow you to CC several areas of the map, even for new spawns, while you're somewhere else.

Counter to this, max efficiency, max range, lowest duration and increased casting speed with the Chaos Sphere augment will allow you to hypnotize your allies long enough for you to take all the kills from the miragulor next to ya lol
Combine with disco miragulor, ev trinity, and soundquake banshee, and you got yourself an eminent seizure.

[Karav]

On 2/24/2017 at 4:54 PM, Snowman486 said:

Yeah, Mirage is strong, but she's only absurdly busted when a particular weapon is imo (and lets be honest, she's not the only frame who's strong as hell). To justify nerfing her, I feel like numerous frames would have to be nerfed first: Valkyr, Trinity, Nova, Ember, Mesa, Nidus... and probably many more XD.

And that's why PvP has its own set of balanced mods and frames. Wait, why do Ember, Nova, Mesa and Valkyr need rebalancing? Those are all frames with specific roles who do their roles exceptionally well. They are frames that do damage. Simple as that. It seems to me that people are actually complaining about there is a weapon allowing tank frames to out-damage the DPS frames. Of course, the DPS frame that relies on its weapon is going to outshine everyone else! What did you think was going to happen?

On 2/22/2017 at 2:25 PM, Chipputer said:

The only other one that reliably can is Loki with his disarm augment, but I'm not even sure on that because Loki's radiation procs act really strangely.

Oberon is 100% guaranteed to turn them off with the simple press of one button. Other frames generally have to rely on chance procs or use weapons that are overall less efficient with 100% status radiation against Infested, which is usually a bad idea in the long run.

That still requires using a specific frame and forcing the enemies to cooperate with you, though. Once you get your SySim you'll realize why people are so up in arms over it. Especially if you just use Mirage, press 1, then W+M1 through the whole mission.

Actually, Hydroid also gets a cleanse through his tide augment. I think it's a good thing that so many frames have means of cleansing allies and debuffing enemies. It's what makes team compositions matter. The fact is, each frame is supposed to have its own niche. If that niche is "makes infested missions easy," so be it! No frame can be the best at everything. If I wanted that, I'd play Guild Wars 2.

[dan.io.wal]

On 2/17/2017 at 3:26 PM, Karav said:

I'd say it's Mirage. Have you ever seen the Zhuge carpet bomb build?

I actually like that combo more than mirage and the simulor 

[(PSN)wildcats1369my]

and here i am waiting for
Mirage Prime + Synoid Simulor Prime 
will surely buy DE.

[WolfTitan]

1. Warframe stands out among other shooters because of its fast-paced nature. This includes begin able to efficiently kill hordes of enemies. Mirage + simulor is one way to do it. Ember WoF is another way. There is nothing wrong with players finding ways to speed things up. Hell, I'd love it if the squad consisted of Volt  + Mirage/Simulor + Buff in extermination missions.

2. Go to recruit chat if you want your squad mates to play your way. Otherwise, less crying. Never force play style on public squad mates. It's not cool.  

3. It's disappointing that some players beg for nerfs just because the method is efficient and fast. That's what this game is about. Nerf = slow the pace of the game = less thrill in the mission. There's a reason why players hate mobile defense missions and love capture missions. One is slow and repetitive and the other is fast and thrilling (I'll race ya to the end).

[(PSN)Crixus044]

17 hours ago, WolfTitan said:

1. Warframe stands out among other shooters because of its fast-paced nature. This includes begin able to efficiently kill hordes of enemies. Mirage + simulor is one way to do it. Ember WoF is another way. There is nothing wrong with players finding ways to speed things up. Hell, I'd love it if the squad consisted of Volt  + Mirage/Simulor + Buff in extermination missions.

2. Go to recruit chat if you want your squad mates to play your way. Otherwise, less crying. Never force play style on public squad mates. It's not cool.  

3. It's disappointing that some players beg for nerfs just because the method is efficient and fast. That's what this game is about. Nerf = slow the pace of the game = less thrill in the mission. There's a reason why players hate mobile defense missions and love capture missions. One is slow and repetitive and the other is fast and thrilling (I'll race ya to the end).

This would be fine in any normal game, but for a f2p game, you need longevity, because it isn't a race. If you enjoy mob clearing, go to a planet under your level so that you can feel like a god. This isn't a tactical shooter, but it also isn't a horde mode game. The fast pace action revolves on your use of powers and parkour, not how fast you kill everybody, racing to extraction. It's like flooring a car, going as fast as you can to a stop sign. This is actually quite boring. 

[fatpig84]

Simulor Mirages ?

Lawl that is just cute. The real Mirages are using hotkey spamming with Telos Boltace or Atterax slide attacks.
But the time it takes for you to release a single simulor vortex, they would have cleaned the room and in the next one.

So sure go ahead, nerf the Simulor !

 

Edited March 1, 2017 by fatpig84

[Magneu]

On 2/28/2017 at 5:45 AM, WolfTitan said:

Never force play style on public squad mates. It's not cool.  

The irony in this statement is delicious.

What is Miragulor spam but forcing your playstyle on public squadmates?

[ChuckMaverick]

12 minutes ago, Magneu said:

The irony in this statement is delicious.

What is Miragulor spam but forcing your playstyle on public squadmates?

Mirage + Simulor users aren't telling anyone else how to play, they can still bring any frame/weapon combo they want.

[Magneu]

1 hour ago, ChuckMaverick said:

Mirage + Simulor users aren't telling anyone else how to play, they can still bring any frame/weapon combo they want.

You've missed the point.

It's hard to use a bow/sniper/any precision weapon when a Miragulor is bulletjumping everywhere spamming a mobile, mono-color rave party. 

AOE spam by definition is forcing your playstyle on everyone else, especially when it combines high mobility, top-tier damage, ease of use, annoying FX.

A guy can go HAMF with a Tigris Prime, and it doesn't affect me that much, as his obscene DPS is limited to a cone with falloff.. A Nidus can claim a hallway and I'll just move elsewhere temporarily, as he has to camp to build stacks. A Miragulor can simply fly across a room spamming M1 and impact everybody's gameplay with practically no effort.

[LOKIME]

Everytime I see a mirage spamming them shiny balls I literally just run to the exit and let them do all the work.

This is for two reasons: I don't use much AOE weapons, so I actually have to aim to kill, which is kind of hard when there's TONS of blinding simulor's vortexes stabing my eyes, and if i manage to aim a target, it's probably dead already.

Good thing is this kind of player's are less and less common; with riven mods around, people use other stuff as well.

[ChuckMaverick]

44 minutes ago, Magneu said:

You've missed the point.

It's hard to use a bow/sniper/any precision weapon when a Miragulor is bulletjumping everywhere spamming a mobile, mono-color rave party. 

AOE spam by definition is forcing your playstyle on everyone else, especially when it combines high mobility, top-tier damage, ease of use, annoying FX.

I'm not missing the point at all, you're free to play any frame/weapon combo and playstyle that you want.

The fact that you're using a playstyle that is ineffective in the face of their much more efficient setup is your choice, and therefore your fault.

The fact that careful, precision gameplay is ineffective in most public missions is down to how DE have designed their game.

None of that is the fault of the Mirage/Simulor user.

[Magneu]

1 hour ago, ChuckMaverick said:

you're free to play any frame/weapon combo and playstyle that you want.

I would expect there to be a decent amount of weapons that can compete at higher levels without resorting to cheese, but:

1 hour ago, ChuckMaverick said:

The fact that you're using a playstyle that is ineffective in the face of their much more efficient setup is your choice, and therefore your fault.

Since when is using everything but one frame/weapon combo inefficient and bad? You sound like you're advocating Miragulor to be the only effective strategy 90% of the time, which is completely contrary to a core tenant of perfect imbalance, which is fundamental to game design and longevity.

 

You've perfectly described "meta", and for reasons already discussed, meta is very bad for game health in the long run.

You're essentially saying that Miragulor is the most effective set-up, and running anything else is your own fault. Therefore, Miragulor is all anyone should play if they want to win faster, and you see no problem with this. You see no problem with a player entering a public lobby and enforcing their will and playstyle on every player there, leaving them the choices of (a) quit the match, or (b) resign themselves to obnoxious FX and nothing to shoot (at that point, why not just take up online Solitaire as your game of choice? About as exciting). 

Yeah. This conversation is going to go nowhere productive, I can already tell.

Edited March 2, 2017 by Magneu

[ChuckMaverick]

42 minutes ago, Magneu said:

I would expect there to be a decent amount of weapons that can compete at higher levels without resorting to cheese, but:

Since when is using everything but one frame/weapon combo inefficient and bad? You sound like you're advocating Miragulor to be the only effective strategy 90% of the time, which is completely contrary to a core tenant of perfect imbalance, which is fundamental to game design and longevity.

You've perfectly described "meta", and for reasons already discussed, meta is very bad for game health in the long run.

You're essentially saying that Miragulor is the most effective set-up, and running anything else is your own fault. Therefore, Miragulor is all anyone should play if they want to win faster, and you see no problem with this. You see no problem with a player entering a public lobby and enforcing their will and playstyle on every player there, leaving them the choices of (a) quit the match, or (b) resign themselves to obnoxious FX and nothing to shoot (at that point, why not just take up online Solitaire as your game of choice? About as exciting). 

Yeah. This conversation is going to go nowhere productive, I can already tell.

 

There are plenty of effective combos available, I've been regularly getting 50-60%+ damage lately with Maim Equinox and a Vaykor Hek.

A 'meta' is not bad for the game, it's inevitable in any game that gives options for players to choose between.

I love my Prowl Ivara and use her for many solo missions, but I'd never take her into any public missions except spy because she's just not as effective in a group as other frames.

It's on the developers to introduce changes that shake up the meta every now and then, but that will only result in a new and different meta evolving, the paradise of all setups being equally viable in all situations is a myth, and will never actually exist.

[Magneu]

18 hours ago, ChuckMaverick said:

 

There are plenty of effective combos available, I've been regularly getting 50-60%+ damage lately with Maim Equinox and a Vaykor Hek.

A 'meta' is not bad for the game, it's inevitable in any game that gives options for players to choose between.

I love my Prowl Ivara and use her for many solo missions, but I'd never take her into any public missions except spy because she's just not as effective in a group as other frames.

It's on the developers to introduce changes that shake up the meta every now and then, but that will only result in a new and different meta evolving, the paradise of all setups being equally viable in all situations is a myth, and will never actually exist.

I apologize for the straw man; I should really stop posting near midnight. However, I still believe that you're advocating the SySim over everything else indirectly by saying that if a player uses another piece of gear and doesn't perform as well, it's their own fault; shouldn't players have reasonable freedom of choice in weapons at high level, and be able to perform at or near the same level? The current SySim is a weapon that is simultaneously good at practically everything, while being extremely easy to use.

My main gripe is that the SySim gives the same effect as other strategies, but does it (a) in a brain dead manner and (b) by constantly annoying teammates with its FX. The reason I got testy with you was that (correct me if I'm wrong) you are seeing the weapons in a viewpoint of effective vs. noneffective, efficient vs non efficient. It's my belief that tiers of weapons are fine, but weapons on the highest tier should all be roughly equal; this one does the most DPS, but has insane recoil, this one has lower DPS but has good QoL, etc. The SySim falls outside of this spectrum because it has too much power with not enough drawbacks, for reasons I've enumerated somewhere above in this thread. In addition, it requires practically no real input compared to other weapons of the same tier; you simply spam in one direction near enemies, and you get CC and high damage. Of course, a skilled player can beat a SySim player with certain strategies, but having to formulate strategies to defeat someone spamming M1 and bullet jumping flips the skill/reward ratio. 

Meta is not inherently bad; players will always find the most effective strategy. However, a static meta is bad, as players grow into habits and take the "one tool, every job" approach. From this, new content is immediately judged based on the current meta. If it's below that level, mastery fodder. Above that level, power-creep...which becomes the new meta. The reason the SySim is relatively unchallenged as  a meta weapon is that its extreme ease of use and obscene number of positives vs negatives. 

 

TL:DR; The SySim is far too easy for the results it gives, while also annoying the hell out of teammates. In addition, it actively takes away from the enjoyment of other players (assuming they are playing for fun, and not just the reward. Even then, some people like to do more than walk from point A to B). Even if other strategies can achieve better results, they at least take some effort instead of general area spamming. 

[--DSP--]

On 2/16/2017 at 10:03 PM, sappinmahsentry said:

I've seen people without mirage dominate games (without anyone else having much fun) with just spamming LMB on their simulor. It's not AS insane, but it still is broken. Mirage needs no nerfs, the Synoid Simulor does.

No, if you nerf Synoid Simulor, it will become weak af. Synoid Simulor already got a big nerf after the autoheadshot removal. Mirage isn't the problem either. But it is the combination of BOTH that is the problem.

[ChuckMaverick]

1 hour ago, Magneu said:

TL:DR; The SySim is far too easy for the results it gives, while also annoying the hell out of teammates. In addition, it actively takes away from the enjoyment of other players (assuming they are playing for fun, and not just the reward. Even then, some people like to do more than walk from point A to B). Even if other strategies can achieve better results, they at least take some effort instead of general area spamming.

While the SynSimulor is definitely a very powerful weapon, in the hands of any frame besides Mirage it's merely top-tier, not massively overpowered.

It has limited range (12m travel + 11m blast radius), so you're not killing anything more than 23m from you.

It does no damage on the first shot (unless Mirage), which is actually a big deal if you're moving fast as orbs may not merge at all.

Unless you mod for punch-through, getting quick shots off in close quarters can be tricky if orbs bounce off mobs in different directions.

If it didn't have visual and audio effects that seem to annoy a large number of players, and an amazing synergy with Mirage, you probably wouldn't see anywhere near the number of complaints about it.

[Fallen_Echo]

11 hours ago, ChuckMaverick said:

While the SynSimulor is definitely a very powerful weapon, in the hands of any frame besides Mirage it's merely top-tier, not massively overpowered.

It has limited range (12m travel + 11m blast radius), so you're not killing anything more than 23m from you.

It does no damage on the first shot (unless Mirage), which is actually a big deal if you're moving fast as orbs may not merge at all.

Unless you mod for punch-through, getting quick shots off in close quarters can be tricky if orbs bounce off mobs in different directions.

If it didn't have visual and audio effects that seem to annoy a large number of players, and an amazing synergy with Mirage, you probably wouldn't see anywhere near the number of complaints about it.

Just a minor fixing for your comment.

It has 12m travel and 5m blast radius. You cant kill anything further than 17 meters.

The only thing they could change is the audio and the visual effect.

[ChuckMaverick]

3 minutes ago, Fallen_Echo said:

Just a minor fixing for your comment.

It has 12m travel and 5m blast radius. You cant kill anything further than 17 meters.

You're thinking of the alt fire that detonates the orbs, that has a radius of 5m.

The blast from orbs combining has a radius of 7m for the regular Simulor and 11m for the Synoid Simulor.

[Karav]

On 3/1/2017 at 11:45 PM, ChuckMaverick said:

There are plenty of effective combos available, I've been regularly getting 50-60%+ damage lately with Maim Equinox and a Vaykor Hek.

A 'meta' is not bad for the game, it's inevitable in any game that gives options for players to choose between.

I love my Prowl Ivara and use her for many solo missions, but I'd never take her into any public missions except spy because she's just not as effective in a group as other frames.

It's on the developers to introduce changes that shake up the meta every now and then, but that will only result in a new and different meta evolving, the paradise of all setups being equally viable in all situations is a myth, and will never actually exist.

Each "effective combo" has its own place. I get solid damage percentages (30%+) on defense missions with a Banshee and a Vectis. My question to you guys, is what do you see Mirage's niche?

Honestly, I've only ever seen people take Mirage for (extremely) high level missions when they need the targeted AoE blind effect of her ultimate.

[Magneu]

On 3/2/2017 at 7:44 PM, --DSP-- said:

No, if you nerf Synoid Simulor, it will become weak af. Synoid Simulor already got a big nerf after the autoheadshot removal. Mirage isn't the problem either. But it is the combination of BOTH that is the problem.

Yes, because weapon balancing is all or nothing /s.

It can be reduced in power without neutering the weapon. Complete false dilemma fallacy to suggest that it either isn't touched, or is nerfed to the ground, with absolutely no alternatives.

The autoheadshot removal wasn't a nerf, it was a bugfix. Technically speaking the weapon became weaker, but it was a bug that gave explosives an even more inordinate amount of power vs usage requirements. Saying we shouldn't fix bugs because they make already powerful weapons even stronger is possible slippery slope to future events.