Limbo Rework Discussion and Feedback

[(XBOX)RedJlve]

6 hours ago, General_Durandal said:

not every warframe needs to be able to kill all the  enemies with his powers.

This

Spoiler

Inb4 Oberon

 

[Azamagon]

8 hours ago, BalaDeSilver said:

1) I liked your ideas.

2) As a main Limbo, I guess that a increase in size of the Cataclysm for each enemy killed under the effect of Rift Surge (make a nice combo with Cataclysmic Continuum) would be better anf would justify the mini Cataclysms, but I agree that it would be better if that was an Augment thought.

3) And I'd love to go through enemies that are outside the Rift while I'm inside it, and vice versa (like the operator's Void Dash), because it's something that really makes sense. 

(sorry if I misspelled something, it's 2 am here.) 

1) Thanks...

2) ... but I didn't suggest anything like that? I mean, i've VERY anti-mini-cataclysms. I hate that part so much.

3) That is a good idea though. Gibbing, anyone? ;)

Also, I'd like to add: Stasis shouldn't affect allies. Why would it? Why add MORE trollability to Limbo?

[Therril]

4 minutes ago, DarkOvion said:

 

They don't and won't.

Rebecca explicitly told me that they would retain the flavour of what Limbo is, keep it a Field Control focused scalpel of a frame, and that despite what we'd already seen - they were actually excited about it...

The next day they were more excited talking about socks than Limbo, which was dismissed.

Then after more reassurances they're basically replacing Limbo with an AoE CC type frame, rather than a scalpel type frame.

 - I mean, don't get me wrong what's there looks awesome just... not Limbo so much as a another frame..

I think you misunderstood then the intention of DE. Limbo is a frame from the rift. He manipulates the rift and those inside of it. That is his theme.

That does not mean his frame has to work as a scalpel frame, taking out priority targets. Now he can do that but also fight against larger crowds.
His theme is the same, enhanced IMO. The rework allows you to play with everyone else.

I played Limbo a lot but every time you play, you feel left behind because you cannot take out other targets since everyone else is way ahead of you.
Oh look, an eximus bombard, better take that guy ou... too late, it got killed.

[DarkOvion]

1 minute ago, Therril said:

I think you misunderstood then the intention of DE. Limbo is a frame from the rift. He manipulates the rift and those inside of it. That is his theme.

That does not mean his frame has to work as a scalpel frame, taking out priority targets. Now he can do that but also fight against larger crowds.
His theme is the same, enhanced IMO. The rework allows you to play with everyone else.

I played Limbo a lot but every time you play, you feel left behind because you cannot take out other targets since everyone else is way ahead of you.
Oh look, an eximus bombard, better take that guy ou... too late, it got killed.

I didn't misunderstand the intention stated as it was clearly 'staying close enough for existing Limbo Users'.

And Limbo is a Rift Frame, but as presented for 2-3 years, he is a scalpel. He picks and chooses. Limbo dictates when, where and how he engages the enemy.

A Bombard shouldn't be a death sentence for you - especially if kitted properly. (I mean, I do a half-mil base damage per shot from my Tigris, and I could easily double to triple that if I dedicated to Rift Surge _{and even more could be bothered to farm to upgrade a couple of Primed modes from 8 to 10} - but there's no need, as nothing in reasonable play needs that)

This rework, with its spammy AoE nature... reduces that. It seems like the damage boost from Rift Surge will be going away too? (hopefully rolled into something else) replaced with 'use ammo shots / time per target' that you've grouped up.

 

Like I've said, I will wait and see - but it currently feels like the frame I've spent over 800+ hours in is going away...

[DarkOvion]

9 minutes ago, Azamagon said:

2) ... but I didn't suggest anything like that? I mean, i've VERY anti-mini-cataclysms. I hate that part so much.

This.

It's yet another removal of control.

That's the sort of thing that should be an Augment!

[Therril]

11 minutes ago, DarkOvion said:

I didn't misunderstand the intention stated as it was clearly 'staying close enough for existing Limbo Users'.

And Limbo is a Rift Frame, but as presented for 2-3 years, he is a scalpel. He picks and chooses. Limbo dictates when, where and how he engages the enemy.

A Bombard shouldn't be a death sentence for you - especially if kitted properly. (I mean, I do a half-mil base damage per shot from my Tigris, and I could easily double to triple that if I dedicated to Rift Surge _{and even more could be bothered to farm to upgrade a couple of Primed modes from 8 to 10} - but there's no need, as nothing in reasonable play needs that)

This rework, with its spammy AoE nature... reduces that. It seems like the damage boost from Rift Surge will be going away too? (hopefully rolled into something else) replaced with 'use ammo shots / time per target' that you've grouped up.

 

Like I've said, I will wait and see - but it currently feels like the frame I've spent over 800+ hours in is going away...

The problem with that scalpel is that before you can handle the enemy, someone else killed it long before you can. Maybe you found a way around it but I personally felt like I was the 5th wheel on the wagon.
As for the boost of rift surge, I think from what i understood, his 3rd ability keeps it though not sure to what degree. Molecular prime added a x2 damage boost so I assume his third will have that as well. Though I hope the damage boost is more than x2 since it is to fewer enemies and also doesn't slow.

When limbo came out, I loved the idea of what you stated: "Limbo dictates when, where and how he engages the enemy."

However, the way people play now, that is hard to do since, again, your targets are down before you can properly activate all your abilities.
Don't feel sad, once the rework is out, give it a proper try and maybe you find it different but fun nonetheless :D

EDIT: Regarding the mini cataclysms: I agree it sounds very chaotic for now but I'm gonna hold off on commenting on it until more info is given.

Edited February 18, 2017 by Therril
Edit about skill

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

3 hours ago, (PS4)sixsecondsleft said:

I do like the look of Stasis, but it doesn't seem that playable somehow.  Other than looking cool, it doesn't look that fun to me.  It feels like this would make him even more of a "solo" frame than before.

Yea.... 

 

Top notch Cc, Motivation and reason to use cataclysm,  ae banish and isn't the new surge supposed to spawn mini catalcysms as well? 

The benefits of stopped time...aiming difficult weapons at faces, lining enemys up perfectly for arrows, for everyone to use as there's allways gonna be a entrance sure sounds frickin bad...

Edited February 18, 2017 by (PS4)CoolD2108

[(PSN)mahoshonenfox]

I like Limbo's new Stasis ability that can stop time and the buff to Cataclysm knocking enemies down on formation and having increased damage on collapse based on the number of enemies in the bubble. But I think the changes to his Banish and Rift Surge abilities are not very good.

I think Banish should not be an AoE. Limbo already has Cataclysm for this but the real problem with Banish being an AoE is that it takes groups of enemies away from other players. Having it as AoE is good for Limbo on solo play but in a squad, he's not going to be able to precisely control the battle field. Instead, he'll just be stealing other people's kills.

Another concern is the little rift bubbles that his Rift Surge can potentially make. Are these like Cataclysm that Limbo can dispel any time? Not to mention Limbo can't really control where these things spawn. What if they spawn by elevators, consoles or even breakable fans? No one would be able to proceed through the map and its not clear if Limbo can dispel these things. Just a thought.

[AdunSaveMe]

The problem with Banish not being AOE is that it severely limits what Limbo can do and makes him very awkward to play. A limbo player already takes enemies away from the team, that's not going to change, and it's not going to be much worse.

Edited February 18, 2017 by AdunSaveMe

[Latiac]

The only issue I have is that you still CAN'T pick up items in the rift, That would be a good QoL change in my opinion, or at the very least, in Catacalysm.

[Azamagon]

From what we have heard about Limbo, I'm personally very interested about his rework (as the ideas have potential), but not unexpectedly, there seems to be a ton of dangerous flaws added in it.

Let's carefully and constructively inspect each ability, and then delve into how they could be finetuned to perfection!

 

Passive: With a small tweak, I'd love this passive. But as it is, it has some issues.

The excuse was "Limbo has difficulties picking up loot". That's not really being helped by this passive, as now not only you STILL have to toggle in/out of the Rift, now you HAVE to move as well! So, it adds more issues than helps, in that regard.
Also, LIMBO is less concerned about loot than teammates (especially if you use Carrier), as he better control when he wants to pick it up. His teammates on the other hand...
Further, he will have less parkourability, at least without affecting his Rift-state. I bet we'd get used to this though, so this doesn't concern me much personally.

That said, the rework does allow more abilities to be different, which I really like. The passive can work, but it does require a simple addition:

CHANGES: Standing still and pressing roll = Shifting in/out of the Rift, WITHOUT dashing. If you wanna dash, you have to move at the same time. Now he can still be a good sniper, among other stuff he already was good at when he had Rift Walk. It simply adds options, which is always good.

 

Banish: Plainly making it AoE is actually NOT a good idea, as that would remove a big and important part of his toolkit: Precision. This precision is what makes him so useful for singling out dangerous foes to 1vs1 them, or to aid Rescue targets (etc) with little concerns. AoE Banish as an OPTION, that would be great, no doubt.

CHANGES: Tap for single cast, Hold for AoE cast. Again, options are always good. Just make sure that Limbo is unaffected by the AoE Banish. If he wants to go out, he has to do so by choice with his new "roll".

 

Stasis: I like the premise, but not the heap of drawbacks and trolling power. Having a drawback sounds fitting (fits his Lore, and as a balancing to a VERY potent CC), but the suggested "kick Limbo out of the Rift for a duration" sounds like a really sadistic and overblown penalty. And the ability to FURTHER reduce your teammates' potency is not cool, obviously.

CHANGES: Freeze enemies and their projectiles, but not ALLIED projectiles (or their activity, ofc). As for the penalty, speed up how quickly the abiliy fades the more enemies are caught (don't count enemy projectiles though, that's just too much), but remove the "kick out Limbo out of Rift for a duration"-penalty entirely. This means you still have to be careful with how many enemies you control, but not with such extreme risk.

 

Rift Surge: Death-explosions sound nice, as it seems to add a tool in Limbo's kit to do stuff (partially) cross-rift. But random and uncontrollable mini-cataclysms? That is just something that is gonna get Limbo players killed, even good ones, as it can be out of their control after all. Especially so if you consider the current Stasis-penalties (less so if Stasis changed as suggested, but it would still carry potential issues).

CHANGES: Scrap the minicataclysms entirely, they are just too dangerous and random.
Mechanically, make the ability an Accelerant-esque cast: Make it a recastable ability with enemies in the castradius being debuffed (causing them to explode on death) and grants Limbo a selfbuff (he deals more damage whenever he attacks from inside the Rift). Simple, controllable, useful. It keeps his old tool (enhanced damage), while adding something that works both from any side of the rift and to any side of the rift (death explosions).

 

Cataclysm: Adding a stun is neat and all, making it more workable and less risky, but this ability can have so much more fun potency and control in it. I'll just go straight to the suggested changes.

CHANGES: Multiple ideas here:
* Don't allow enemies to exit the sphere by themselves (no hard-CC when touching the shrinking walls though).
* Enemies in Cataclysm hurt by Banish will be expelled violently with ragdoll. This gives some actual distinct use between the AoE they both can provide, and further  adds more fine control to his kit.
* Holdcast it when active to quickly shrink the sphere's size manually. Going for low power range shouldn't feel so "necessary" (although, Stasis helps with that a big bunch too, I bet).

 

Rift in general - The Rift still has a lot of trolling power. Lots of its irritating issues has been left unchanged, as far as we know.

CHANGES: Multiple suggestions
* Allow looting, picking up and carrying of any items cross-rift. I mean, you can still hold your weapons, no? Why not loot etc? Logic explanation: You and your allies can "banish" small stuff that you touch. Enemies can't affect stuff across the Rift, because they aren't using Warframes.
* Possibly also allow allies and Limbo to hack when in the Rift via Banish, but if doing so, the player greatly speeds up the remaining Rift-duration (meaning, reducing the time you have left to stay in the Rift). This reduces lots of irritation for the whole team, but it still has downsides as you will not being protected for as long. I mean, using invisibility allows you to (generally) more safely hack than what the Rift would, so why not, right?
Note: If hacking is done inside a Cataclysm-sphere though, there doesn't need to be any duration-penalties, as enemies can still come in and hurt you.

 

I think this will solve most issues with the rework, along with old problems too.

Thoughts and opinions?

 

[(PSN)mahoshonenfox]

1 minute ago, Latiac said:

The only issue I have is that you still CAN'T pick up items in the rift, That would be a good QoL change in my opinion, or at the very least, in Catacalysm.

Its not confirmed but we might be able to pick up items at least in Cataclysm. Around 39:12 of Devstream 88, you can see that Rebecca placed a Cataclysm and then killed a few enemies inside it. They dropped life support modules and Limbo was able to pick them up even while in Cataclysm.

 

[BalaDeSilver]

I think that  a synergy between the new Rift Surge and the Cataclysm by increasing it's size, and the ability to shrink Cataclysm by holding 4 (as stated various times in this post) would be better, because it would synergize with the Augment Cataclysmic Continuum, turning Limbo into a massive killing machine being permanently banished (inside Cataclysm) with time stopped and a Nikana or Galatine with Blood Rush simply destroying anything that (doesn't) move. 

 

Yeah, sounds great and balanced. 

[BalaDeSilver]

40 minutes ago, Azamagon said:

From what we have heard about Limbo, I'm personally very interested about his rework (as the ideas have potential), but not unexpectedly, there seems to be a ton of dangerous flaws added in it.

Let's carefully and constructively inspect each ability, and then delve into how they could be finetuned to perfection!

 

Passive: With a small tweak, I'd love this passive. But as it is, it has some issues.

The excuse was "Limbo has difficulties picking up loot". That's not really being helped by this passive, as now not only you STILL have to toggle in/out of the Rift, now you HAVE to move as well! So, it adds more issues than helps, in that regard.
Also, LIMBO is less concerned about loot than teammates (especially if you use Carrier), as he better control when he wants to pick it up. His teammates on the other hand...
Further, he will have less parkourability, at least without affecting his Rift-state. I bet we'd get used to this though, so this doesn't concern me much personally.

That said, the rework does allow more abilities to be different, which I really like. The passive can work, but it does require a simple addition:

CHANGES: Standing still and pressing roll = Shifting in/out of the Rift, WITHOUT dashing. If you wanna dash, you have to move at the same time. Now he can still be a good sniper, among other stuff he already was good at when he had Rift Walk. It simply adds options, which is always good.

 

Banish: Plainly making it AoE is actually NOT a good idea, as that would remove a big and important part of his toolkit: Precision. This precision is what makes him so useful for singling out dangerous foes to 1vs1 them, or to aid Rescue targets (etc) with little concerns. AoE Banish as an OPTION, that would be great, no doubt.

CHANGES: Tap for single cast, Hold for AoE cast. Again, options are always good. Just make sure that Limbo is unaffected by the AoE Banish. If he wants to go out, he has to do so by choice with his new "roll".

 

Stasis: I like the premise, but not the heap of drawbacks and trolling power. Having a drawback sounds fitting (fits his Lore, and as a balancing to a VERY potent CC), but the suggested "kick Limbo out of the Rift for a duration" sounds like a really sadistic and overblown penalty. And the ability to FURTHER reduce your teammates' potency is not cool, obviously.

CHANGES: Freeze enemies and their projectiles, but not ALLIED projectiles (or their activity, ofc). As for the penalty, speed up how quickly the abiliy fades the more enemies are caught (don't count enemy projectiles though, that's just too much), but remove the "kick out Limbo out of Rift for a duration"-penalty entirely. This means you still have to be careful with how many enemies you control, but not with such extreme risk.

 

Rift Surge: Death-explosions sound nice, as it seems to add a tool in Limbo's kit to do stuff (partially) cross-rift. But random and uncontrollable mini-cataclysms? That is just something that is gonna get Limbo players killed, even good ones, as it can be out of their control after all. Especially so if you consider the current Stasis-penalties (less so if Stasis changed as suggested, but it would still carry potential issues).

CHANGES: Scrap the minicataclysms entirely, they are just too dangerous and random.
Mechanically, make the ability an Accelerant-esque cast: Make it a recastable ability with enemies in the castradius being debuffed (causing them to explode on death) and grants Limbo a selfbuff (he deals more damage whenever he attacks from inside the Rift). Simple, controllable, useful. It keeps his old tool (enhanced damage), while adding something that works both from any side of the rift and to any side of the rift (death explosions).

 

Cataclysm: Adding a stun is neat and all, making it more workable and less risky, but this ability can have so much more fun potency and control in it. I'll just go straight to the suggested changes.

CHANGES: Multiple ideas here:
* Don't allow enemies to exit the sphere by themselves (no hard-CC when touching the shrinking walls though).
* Enemies in Cataclysm hurt by Banish will be expelled violently with ragdoll. This gives some actual distinct use between the AoE they both can provide, and further  adds more fine control to his kit.
* Holdcast it when active to quickly shrink the sphere's size manually. Going for low power range shouldn't feel so "necessary" (although, Stasis helps with that a big bunch too, I bet).

 

Rift in general - The Rift still has a lot of trolling power. Lots of its irritating issues has been left unchanged, as far as we know.

CHANGES: Multiple suggestions
* Allow looting, picking up and carrying of any items cross-rift. I mean, you can still hold your weapons, no? Why not loot etc? Logic explanation: You and your allies can "banish" small stuff that you touch. Enemies can't affect stuff across the Rift, because they aren't using Warframes.
* Possibly also allow allies and Limbo to hack when in the Rift via Banish, but if doing so, the player greatly speeds up the remaining Rift-duration (meaning, reducing the time you have left to stay in the Rift). This reduces lots of irritation for the whole team, but it still has downsides as you will not being protected for as long. I mean, using invisibility allows you to (generally) more safely hack than what the Rift would, so why not, right?
Note: If hacking is done inside a Cataclysm-sphere though, there doesn't need to be any duration-penalties, as enemies can still come in and hurt you.

 

I think this will solve most issues with the rework, along with old problems too.

Thoughts and opinions?

 

Enemies can't hurt you if they can't move (insert think meme here) :v

 

But still, I agree with you that datamasses, energy for excavators, consoles and life support should be Banish-able, because it doesn't make any sense, since you can Banish the excavators and the big consoles in Mobile Defense (using Cataclysm). Why not Banish everything else, and interact with everything else, so the whole thing just can make sense?

 

I also think that Limbo should be able to use Banish in objects like consoles, but with reduced duration for these objects, to be fair with balancing. 

[DarkOvion]

1 hour ago, AdunSaveMe said:

The problem with Banish not being AOE is that it severely limits what Limbo can do and makes him very awkward to play. A limbo player already takes enemies away from the team, that's not going to change, and it's not going to be much worse.

Severely limits how now?

I regen energy so fast in the rift by the time I've cast banish I can cast it again.

[Buzkyl]

1 minute ago, DarkOvion said:

Severely limits how now?

I regen energy so fast in the rift by the time I've cast banish I can cast it again.

Warfrane is a horde based game. Putting enemies into the rift 1 by one is clunky and inconvenient in every sense. If you wish to pull less enemies into he rift, use negative range.

Also not everyone uses Zenurik.

[aligatorno]

4 minutes ago, DarkOvion said:

Severely limits how now?

I regen energy so fast in the rift by the time I've cast banish I can cast it again.

Unless you are using a high efficiency build, even with Rift Regen + Energy Siphon you can't sustain the constant banishing of the enemies without a decent leveld Zenurik Focus. 

[BalaDeSilver]

7 minutes ago, DarkOvion said:

Severely limits how now?

I regen energy so fast in the rift by the time I've cast banish I can cast it again.

I do see your point, but it's almost pointless to Streamline or Fleeting Expertise in a Limbo (the duration, remember?) so even if I use Zenurik (and I do), I'm not perfectly able to Banish one by one, and a Cataclysm in my build is a death sentence, since it lacks Vitality or Quick Thinking. Those 5m cooldown, though... 

[(PSN)mahoshonenfox]

2 minutes ago, Buzkyl said:

Warfrane is a horde based game. Putting enemies into the rift 1 by one is clunky and inconvenient in every sense. If you wish to pull less enemies into he rift, use negative range.

Also not everyone uses Zenurik.

If you want to put multiple enemies into the rift, use Cataclysm.

Banish isn't just pulling one enemy at a time into the rift for Limbo to kill. Sometimes Limbo is in the material plane helping out the squad and he just needs to get rid of one eximus unit or one bursa while he helps the squad clear out the smaller enemies. When the smaller enemies are gone, the big one needs to come back for the squad to kill. If its AoE, you can accidentally banish more enemies while trying to unbanish ones trapped in the rift. Or groups of enemies could swap planes with each other.

Limbo has always been a control frame and a very precise one. Like they say, a tactical scalpel. The devstream did not demo Limbo in team play and I think having Banish as AoE further reduces his squad synergy.

[Carnage2K4]

As someone who finds limbo boring and without a place but for trolling, I think the new reword is well in order and makes me interested to actually bother playing him.

[Buzkyl]

10 minutes ago, (PS4)mahoshonenfox said:

If you want to put multiple enemies into the rift, use Cataclysm.

Banish isn't just pulling one enemy at a time into the rift for Limbo to kill. Sometimes Limbo is in the material plane helping out the squad and he just needs to get rid of one eximus unit or one bursa while he helps the squad clear out the smaller enemies. When the smaller enemies are gone, the big one needs to come back for the squad to kill. If its AoE, you can accidentally banish more enemies while trying to unbanish ones trapped in the rift. Or groups of enemies could swap planes with each other.

Limbo has always been a control frame and a very precise one. Like they say, a tactical scalpel. The devstream did not demo Limbo in team play and I think having Banish as AoE further reduces his squad synergy.

Cataclysm is a way in, not a way out of the rift, unlike banish. Also like sniper rifle, current limbo suffers because he's not able to handle groups of enemies very well. His current iteration does not fit warframe very well. People like to bring up his role as a tactical assassin, i.e. isolating and eliminating key threats, however Ash does that more efficiently with teleport and is still able to handle groups with blade-storm. Limbo's rework allows him to handle larger groups of enemies with Stasis. He is also still free to choose his engagements, you're free to prepare stasis,  banish the eximus kill any unwanted visitors then continue your day as the heavy unit is stuck there

 

AoE Banish allows allows limbo to spend less energy banishing individual teammates.Also Limbo rework is giving him alot more squad synergy by allowing him to loot within his bubbles.

[Carnage2K4]

I've posted in a few threads about this already but I think it really needs a thread to not get lost.

So far little has need said on how Limbos abilities will work on allies, ATM, as many already know he is the master troll frame, I'm sure you at least know some1 who has been trolled by a limbo in the past, where they follow you around the map putting you in rift when ever they can, forcing you to roll out over and over.

The limbo rework is a good opportunity to lessen that issue substantially or remove it completely.

 

I personally think that his new Banish needs to apply a proc to allies when it's used on them, on a power duration timer that allows them to possess Limbos new Rift Walk ability, and just as with Volt they can back flip out of having it. On top of that I think the timer should be refreshed if it's cast again on the ally and it does not put them in the rift on cast, they need to actually use the Rift Walk to enter the rift.

 

I can't see how this could be abused and allows Limbo to really make his team support aspect worthwhile and not just a troll power.

Thoughts?

Edited February 18, 2017 by Carnage2K4

[Hrodgrim]

I like the sound of this, but how do we get friendly AIs to use it?

[bl4ckhunter]

woudln't be a bad idea but banish is aoe now thought, if i'm meleeing a group of somethings i wouldn't want to suddendly be the only thing that doesn't get banished, i think that a better solution would be for banish to put you directly in the rift first and THEN giving you the rift roll ability for a duration during which you can't banished again by limbo. 

Edited February 18, 2017 by bl4ckhunter

[Carnage2K4]

6 minutes ago, Reefermun said:

I like the sound of this, but how do we get friendly AIs to use it?

I've not really considered AIs, I was mainly speaking of players, I guess they should act like an enemy in that case.

6 minutes ago, bl4ckhunter said:

woudln't be a bad idea but banish is aoe now thought, if i'm meleeing a group of somethings i wouldn't want to suddendly be the only thing that doesn't get banished, i think that a better solution would be for banish to put you directly in the rift first and THEN giving you the rift roll ability for a duration during which you can't banished again. 

That might be better.

The other option is for the AOE on allies be an area that Procs on them only and does not put anything in the rift unless they already have the proc., so you don't need a pinpoint accuracy on a tenno like you do now. Maybe downed state player would still go into the rift...

This is getting complicated already lol

Edited February 18, 2017 by Carnage2K4