So the Helios was reverse-engineered too?

[Cyborg-Rox]

While it's not technically described as Corpus-manufactured, it does require the Corpus clan lab and Fieldron to acquire, plus it's being used by some of the Index Brokers. I was kinda hoping DE were moving away from that old "Reverse-engineered" excuse with the Braton remodel... 

But you know what? For this one, I'll buy it. It's a Sentinel after all, and if you've read the Sentinel Cephalon Fragment, you'll know that Sentinels have a special connection to the Tenno specifically. Also, Cephalon Simaris seems to be utilizing Helios as well for his scanning works.

What do you think, Tenno?

Edited February 26, 2017 by Cyborg-Rox

[Aurea_Hiigara]

The Helios we know doesn't even have to be reverse-engineered so much as inspired by.

[Bibliothekar]

I mean, DE already showed that they won't hesitate to ret-con their lore if it means they can sell more shiny stuff when they made Nova Prime ...

[AdunSaveMe]

The fact that it's in the corpus lab is meaningless at this point. If there even is a lore reason for it, it's been thrown out the window to fit DE's attempts at consistent writing. It's one of those things that was thought of when they didn't have a clear vision of the game's lore.

[AdunSaveMe]

9 minutes ago, Bibliothekar said:

I mean, DE already showed that they won't hesitate to ret-con their lore if it means they can sell more shiny stuff when they made Nova Prime ...

Nova Prime wasn't a retcon. There was never ANYTHING to imply she was made after the war.

[TotallyLagging]

You can't ret-con Helios' lore when there's no lore in the first place

 

[Insert picture of a man pointing at his head here]

Edited February 26, 2017 by TotallyLagging

[Katinka]

I thought it was well established that Corpus revered the Orokin and their tech?  I'm not at all surprised by them reverse engineering Orokin tech, in fact I kind of expect it.

2 minutes ago, Bibliothekar said:

I mean, DE already showed that they won't hesitate to ret-con their lore if it means they can sell more shiny stuff when they made Nova Prime ...

I dont even see Nova Prime as a ret-con.  Nova was said to be designed by the Tenno Council but we were never told when the Tenno Council did that or even when they were around. (Yes, it's a nod to her Design Council origins but that doesn't date her design lore-wise.  Players assumed it made her post fall of the Orokin but DE never said that.)  Dakra Prime is even described as 'Tenno forged' so I see no problem with there being Tenno designed Prime warfames too.

Also, I don't think DE has ever stated that Corpus or Grineer weapons can't have Prime variants (or that Wraith and Vandal apply to Grineer and Corpus respectively).  People have just seen a pattern and assumed it will always apply (even though the Wraith/Vandal pattern was broken a long time ago, if it ever existed).

[Mr.ToastForPresident]

I think some time in DE, they really wanted to have lore scattered throughout the game with flavor text added to everything to keep some sort of narrative happening. Then they just gave up part way through and let people come up with their own lore for why everything seems so messed up right now.

[Mk.1]

19 minutes ago, TotallyLagging said:

You can't ret-con Helios' lore when there's no lore in the first place

 

[Insert picture of a man pointing at his head here]

[JalakBali]

Helios was designed to be "Corpus themed", in meta. But per lore, Sentinels are beings the Tenno discovered on the edges of the origin system and they might be related to the Sentients. Maybe they're some sort of components that evolved separately. But they're friendly and the Tenno "adopted" them. But you need to keep in mind that the Sentinels we have are made in the foundry. Meaning, the Tenno/Orokin managed to deconstruct and mass produced them. The current Helios is the derivative of the Prime version. The Corpus made a version of the original Helios (Helios Prime) so this is not a stretch of the lore.

[Mk.1]

35 minutes ago, Katinka said:

even though the Wraith/Vandal pattern was broken a long time ago

Out of curiosity; when?

[Cyborg-Rox]

Just now, Mk_1 said:

Out of curiosity; when?

Strun Wraith, Latron Wraith, Lato Vandal, Imperator Vandal.

[Mk.1]

Oh, since those are Tenno items, I'm guessing.

Unless the Grineer and Corpus modeled theirs after ours? (Basically the argument in this thread)

Edited February 26, 2017 by Mk_1

[Cyborg-Rox]

Just now, Mk_1 said:

Oh, since those are Tenno items, I'm guessing.

Yeah, however it can also be well-reasoned from a lore perspective as Wraith weapons are assumed to be made by Red Veil, which use Tenno weapons themselves, but are allies to Steel Meridian, and Vandal weapons are thought to be made by Darvo, which has strong Corpus ties but is allied to the Lotus and the Tenno.

[Katinka]

Just now, Mk_1 said:

Out of curiosity; when?

The Braton breaks either the Vandal pattern or the Prime pattern.  Lato doesn't look at all Corpus and has a Prime.  Latron doesn't look at all Grineer and has a Prime.  Imperator Vandal (Archwing gun for those who forgot about Archwing) I'm pretty sure isn't Corpus.  Strun is a Tenno shotgun with Tenno text on the stock.  While there is a tendency towards Corpus Vandals and Grineer Wraiths it is by no means a solid rule and not one ever stated by DE.

[kyori]

Everything corpus can be primed because corpus are descendants of orokin according to wiki who in turn according to what I dunno lol

[Vali]

The issue with this entire ' X Prime shouldn't exist!' is that we don't even know what a Prime is. There is no indicator that a Prime is the original version of something and we do not know how well existing technology replicates them. 

[Hypernaut1]

After Valkyr....i try not to think too hard about prime lore. Just accept it for what it is, shiny buffed items.

The entire "they were the original" premise is ridiculous design wise, as primes clearly look like a progression of the normal variants.

[Cyborg-Rox]

Just now, Hypernaut1 said:

After Valkyr....i try not to think too hard about prime lore. Just accept it for what it is, shiny buffed items.

The entire "they were the original" premise is ridiculous design wise, as primes clearly look like a progression of the normal variants.

That's because the non-Primes are the mass-produced ones. It makes sense to tone down the impractical gold and flair for something such massively used while leaving the Primes to have their special decorations, as they're more rare. This could also apply to their stats, if just for production efficiency.

[Hypernaut1]

1 hour ago, Cyborg-Rox said:

That's because the non-Primes are the mass-produced ones. It makes sense to tone down the impractical gold and flair for something such massively used while leaving the Primes to have their special decorations, as they're more rare. This could also apply to their stats, if just for production efficiency.

I understand the wonky lore explanation...I just think it doesn't make sense.

Design wise, there is a clear progression from normal to prime variant. The originals do not look like scale down primes, the primes look like ornate versions of the original. The original frames look organic to their theme, the primes look like the original with added bits, not the other way around.

And this is indeed the way they are actually designed. The fact that Valkyr Prime is based off of her tortured version is enough proof that the "original prime" concept is B.S. and not too well thought out. (even though it's official)

Edited February 26, 2017 by Hypernaut1

[TotallyLagging]

2 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

I understand the wonky lore explanation...I just think it doesn't make sense.

Design wise, there is a clear progression from normal to prime variant. The originals do not look like scale down primes, the primes look like ornate versions of the original. The original frames look organic to their theme, the primes look like the original with added bits, not the other way around.

It's mostly because of limitations. Prime models are normal frames with added golden bits and different textures so skins like Tennogen and Immortal Skins work.

 

They could make entirely different models like Deluxe skins but hoo boy imagine what the community will turn to if their precious skins doesn't work with the new shiny things.

[Xgomme]

To me corpus are low rank orokins, the merchant part of the iceberg. So it's maybe not the way we thinks, but more like mk1. Corpus boxy things are cheap versions of orokin's deluxe ones. Energy bullets cause it virtually cost 0 ammos, rough boxy design and finitions. To me it's totally a cheap version of the original, and totally not made after the orokin era...

 

They made warframes and weapons with a lot of gold to show their power and rank. But when they created sentients, infestation and other dangerous sht they needed some cheap soldiers, a LOT of them. So they turned their merchants into soldiers, giving them cheap versions of their weapons. 
That was not enough, so they made the Zariman kids, with cheap versions of their warframe. And it's kinda working atm

 

(When I say cheap, I mean cheap to produce. Basically just remove gold parts and the thing cost way less  )

Edited February 26, 2017 by Xgomme

[Cyborg-Rox]

10 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

I understand the wonky lore explanation...I just think it doesn't make sense.

Design wise, there is a clear progression from normal to prime variant. The originals do not look like scale down primes, the primes look like ornate versions of the original. The original frames look organic to their theme, the primes look like the original with added bits, not the other way around.

And this is indeed the way they are actually designed. The fact that Valkyr Prime is based off of her tortured version is enough proof that the "original prime" concept is B.S. and not too well thought out. (even though it's official)

Honestly I don't mind it all that much. Just think of it as one of those things that make more sense from a "game" perspective rather than "lore".

[Nazrethim]

5 hours ago, Cyborg-Rox said:

While it's not technically described as Corpus-manufactured, it does require the Corpus clan lab and Fieldron to acquire, plus it's being used by some of the Index Brokers. I was kinda hoping DE were moving away from that old "Reverse-engineered" excuse with the Braton remodel... 

But you know what? For this one, I'll buy it. It's a Sentinel after all, and if you've read the Sentinel Cephalon Fragment, you'll know that Sentinels have a special connection to the Tenno specifically. Also, Cephalon Simaris seems to be utilizing Helios as well for his scanning works.

What do you think, Tenno?

Corpus probably, at some point, found either a non-working helios or a carcass, or a blueprint, then reverse-enginered that to make the regular Helios. They just had that blueprint a tight kept secret. Simaris may have synthetized a Helios made by corpus and made some changes to them to fit his own agenda. We get Helios Prime now because we just uncovered long lost relics containing it¡s blueprint and parts, while the corpus have had theirs for a while.

[Bibliothekar]

4 hours ago, Katinka said:

Nova was said to be designed by the Tenno Council but we were never told when the Tenno Council did that or even when they were around.

While that's true, my understanding was that - since every other frame was created by the Orokin and she was explicitly stated to be not - the Orokin weren't involved in that matter and therefore wouldn't be able or have a reason to prime her. But as @Hypernaut1 said, they completely sank that ship with Valkyr Prime anyway, so at this point they could make Gorgon Prime or Flux Rifle Prime and I wouldn't give a how it fits into the lore.

2 hours ago, Agentawesome said:

we don't even know what a Prime is. There is no indicator that a Prime is the original version of something and we do not know how well existing technology replicates them. 

Primes and Prime Access:

Quote

WHAT IS A PRIME?
Prime Warframes, Weapons and Sentinels are actual pieces of Ancient Orokin technology. These elite intricately gilded items have highly advantageous qualities ...

Prime Access FAQ:

Quote

WHAT IS A PRIME?

A Prime Warframe, weapon, Sentinel or accessory represents technology as it was during the height of the Orokin Era.

So there you go.