Now that Banshee's in the spotlight, let's talk about her 1 flaw: Sound Quake.

[Jackviator]

As the title says, let's talk about the bugbear of Banshee's kit, AKA her ult/4. Simultaneously an ability that doesn't match her general playstyle as a whole, and the bearer of what I personally consider the worst augment in the game (at least in terms of what it does to the gameplay, not in terms of its effectiveness; more on that later).

Part 1: The Squishiness is real... but Sound Quake could care less

The most popular description I've heard for  Banshee is that she's the "glass cannon" of Warframe. She's capable of inflicting frankly insane damage to enemies, but her playstyle is the definition of "high-risk, high-reward," because Banshee is also basically the definition of "squishy," even with her Prime's extra armor. If you're a Banshee and you're not constantly aware of what's going on around you, prepare to die. A lot. 

I think the community's favorite Cephalon YouTuber, Shy, put it best in a video explaining how to play Banshee effectively: "Any stray projectile can end your miserable existence, so never, NEVER EVER be in the open or stationary." ...And to be frank, that's how it should be; Banshee has one of the highest damage multiplying abilities in the game. If she were also tanky, she would be OP as hell. So it makes sense from a balance standpoint that she should always be on the move, wary of enemy fire.

...And thus, we see the main flaw in Sound Quake. It forces you to stand stock-still, leaving you wide open to having a cap (Or 2. Or 5. Or 100 if there's a Heavy Gunner around) bust in your rear. All-in-all, Sound Quake just doesn't match her playstyle/the rest of her kit, by leaving her wide-open to enemy attacks, sucking up an exorbitant amount of energy for what little CC it offers, preventing you from moving or using your powers, and in general is just a less efficient/effective version of things like Stomp and Avalanche. Well, maybe her augment can band-aid it into effectiveness- oh. Well... yes, it certainly does make it more effective. It's just that it also turns Sound Quake into one of the worst abilities in the game from a sheer design and gameplay standpoint.

Part 2: Over-Aged Cheese

Resonating Quake is THE AFK farming mod for Defense and Interception. It turns her into the most "press 4 to win" frame I've seen since the days of AFK Turret Mesa. All you have to do to succeed at Interception and Defense missions is to press 4 and move around every 50 seconds or so to prevent the AFK timer from kicking in. A RQ Banshee and an EV Trinity can get you through any and all defensive-type missions with literally zero effort.

Essentially, if you're looking for an enjoyable combat experience in a defensive-type game, and a RQ Banshee is on your team, you just won't get it. All the enemies are SOL as soon as they load in, unable to act or pose any threat, dying by the truckload and leaving all the loot they drop at the spawn-points. It's essentially the equivalent of Ember, ValTace or MiraMulor in PuG linear mission types; that is to say, the attitude of "I've decided that we're all going to get through this mission with as little combat gameplay as possible, and none of you can do anything about it," but somehow even worse because you don't even get any loot out of it unless you're willing to partake in a scavenger hunt. (And before anyone suggests it, I'm not gonna play solo, with my clan or with friends, and those are band-aid solutions anyway).

---

Part 3: Solutions

So, how can this be fixed? Simple. Scrap Sound Quake as it is and give Banshee something else to play with that actually suits her playstyle.

Example idea: Wail.

Banshee emits a non-channeled, piecing Wail (a la Valkyr, but more... I dunno. High-pitched and haunting, + less aggressive), affecting all enemies in a large radius around her (larger than Silence at the very least). This cry synergizes with her other powers; for example, if enemies are affected by none of her powers, it would only stagger them for a few seconds. But if they're affected by Silence, the cry could make them less accurate for a short time by affecting their senses even more than Silence does. If they have any weak-spots from Sonar, Banshee's Wail would cause those weak spots to rapidly vibrate (resonating with the Wail), causing Sonar'd enemies to slow their movements by 25-30% without slowing their attack speed, making it easier to hit the weak spots, but not making it any harder for them to fire at you. (And this is just one idea; feel free to add your own if you have one you want to share).

If this were implemented, Banshee would gain a tiny bit of survivability, but not be completely safe to cheese enemies to death, or walk amongst them like a Tank frame would. She would still need to be very careful and mobile. And most importantly, the ability would actually suit her playstyle.

Edited March 4, 2017 by Jackviator

[BoomyGordo]

you know i was about to argue that you were wrong, that banshee isn't the cheeze all frame.... then i remembered i built an RQ banshee for raids and sortie defense/intercept that can sit at max RQ stacks for 30 seconds AND  stagger all enemies within 97 meters around her during that time, basically rendering them harmless even though it doesnt kill them.

so ill throw my own idea into the pool, even though its silly as heck and would lead to some very amusing shenanigans

new 4th ability: amplifier

reduce the range to 10 meters and hard cap it at 20 meters.

channeled ability. while active constantly drains energy to amplify any loud noises into sonic shockwaves. shockwave strength is dependant on the loudness of the sound. eg. footsteps and soft landings would do low damage in a small area (almost point blank). light weapon gun fire (pistols, rifles) and heavy landings would do low damage in a slightly larger area and stagger (few meter range), heavy weapon gun fire (shotguns, snipers, launchers) would do more damage in a larger area and knock down. and explosions would not only ragdoll but also fling enemies through the air (like mags pull).

can you imagine a heavy gunner using trying radial blast only to knock it self down and launch all the allies around it self away?

[TaylorsContraction]

While I'm all for a work to sound quake,  op's slow suggestion is a bit op and starts to encroach on nova's kit.  Lower accuracy couplex with silence sound great already.

Perhaps the synergy with sonar should be a slight energy refund when killing an enemy via a sonar spot.  Lack of energy is what usually does me in as a banshee. Typically I get drained by qt from a single shot.

[main_antagonist]

4 hours ago, --Laughing-Soul-- said:

you know i was about to argue that you were wrong, that banshee isn't the cheeze all frame.... then i remembered i built an RQ banshee for raids and sortie defense/intercept that can sit at max RQ stacks for 30 seconds AND  stagger all enemies within 97 meters around her during that time, basically rendering them harmless even though it doesnt kill them.

so ill throw my own idea into the pool, even though its silly as heck and would lead to some very amusing shenanigans

new 4th ability: amplifier

reduce the range to 10 meters and hard cap it at 20 meters.

channeled ability. while active constantly drains energy to amplify any loud noises into sonic shockwaves. shockwave strength is dependant on the loudness of the sound. eg. footsteps and soft landings would do low damage in a small area (almost point blank). light weapon gun fire (pistols, rifles) and heavy landings would do low damage in a slightly larger area and stagger (few meter range), heavy weapon gun fire (shotguns, snipers, launchers) would do more damage in a larger area and knock down. and explosions would not only ragdoll but also fling enemies through the air (like mags pull).

can you imagine a heavy gunner using trying radial blast only to knock it self down and launch all the allies around it self away?

 

[NightmareT12]

Is the problem her 4th ability or the augment to her 4th ability, though?

[Jackviator]

7 hours ago, NightmareT12 said:

Is the problem her 4th ability or the augment to her 4th ability, though?

Both, in different ways (which I think I did a pretty good job of explaining in the OP). At base, the ability doesn't suit her playstyle and gets Banshee killed in a lot of cases. Once augmented, it turns it into one of the cheesiest "AFK camping" abilities in the game, which isn't good either.

Edited March 1, 2017 by Jackviator

[main_antagonist]

6 hours ago, --Laughing-Soul-- said:

you know i was about to argue that you were wrong, that banshee isn't the cheeze all frame.... then i remembered i built an RQ banshee for raids and sortie defense/intercept that can sit at max RQ stacks for 30 seconds AND  stagger all enemies within 97 meters around her during that time, basically rendering them harmless even though it doesnt kill them.

so ill throw my own idea into the pool, even though its silly as heck and would lead to some very amusing shenanigans

new 4th ability: amplifier

reduce the range to 10 meters and hard cap it at 20 meters.

channeled ability. while active constantly drains energy to amplify any loud noises into sonic shockwaves. shockwave strength is dependant on the loudness of the sound. eg. footsteps and soft landings would do low damage in a small area (almost point blank). light weapon gun fire (pistols, rifles) and heavy landings would do low damage in a slightly larger area and stagger (few meter range), heavy weapon gun fire (shotguns, snipers, launchers) would do more damage in a larger area and knock down. and explosions would not only ragdoll but also fling enemies through the air (like mags pull).

can you imagine a heavy gunner using trying radial blast only to knock it self down and launch all the allies around it self away?

Having this as a toggled channel ability while being able to move would be awesome IMO, it would be similar to Embers World On Fire but would trigger based on gunshots etc. I think that's hella cool :D

[Jackviator]

2 hours ago, TaylorsContraction said:

op's slow suggestion is a bit op and starts to encroach on nova's kit.

Yeah, probably should have provided some more details and numbers on that one as to what I was thinking... I'll edit the op to do that.

Anyway, what I was thinking is that Wail would only slow the enemies by a small amount (say, 25%ish, 30% at absolute most) vs Nova's max of 75% slowing, and this slow wouldn't affect the speed at which they're able to fire, just how quickly they move. That way it wouldn't really render Banshee any safer, just make it marginally easier to aim at weak points.

I like your energy suggestion though; that would be a good alternative to my idea.

Edited March 1, 2017 by Jackviator

[Chipputer]

6 hours ago, Jackviator said:

At base, the ability doesn't suit her playstyle and gets Banshee killed in a lot of cases.

Not when used appropriately. As in not out in the open. The augment is what has made it a problem because it never was before then.

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

Does everything really got to have 100% full synergy tho?

 

I personally tend to play her with a melee weapon equipped. Naramon removes her squishyness while in a way lowering her damage output (cause, melee and all. Rather lowering her potential damage really.)

I can deal with lower ranges so i just got myself a range rating that makes silence protect me upon closing in so i can get invisible. I also carry resonance and sonic fracture since that playstyle works great for both of them.

 

I'm protected and offering great damage support and mid-close range CC while obviously doing savage damage myself. Her ult still comes handy when *people need to be revived *stuff has to be protected (mostly excavation pods or me doing the main job in random runs) *or as panic button when things get outa controll

 

Is it really a flaw for her to offer both? It does come with a backdraw after all and people who go extreme on a specific Quake build do miss out on a lot, only doing something most frames do just as effective really.

Edited March 1, 2017 by (PS4)CoolD2108

[Jackviator]

1 minute ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

Does everything really got to have 100% full synergy tho?

No... Which is kinda why I only listed Wail as the only thing in her kit to have any type of synergy with anything else.

2 minutes ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

Naramon removes her squishyness while in a way lowering her damage output 

Naramon isn't part of her kit. Why even mention it?

4 minutes ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

Her ult still comes handy when *people need to be revived *stuff has to be protected (mostly excavation pods or me doing the main job in random runs) *or as panic button when things get outa controll

If things are getting out of control, that's your cue to continue repositioning yourself, not suddenly believe you're going to be able to face-tank a bunch of enemies running at you all at once; you'll just get shot by anything that's out of SQ's range. And if things need to be protected, that's not really a job suited to Banshee's skill set, unless killing things quickly is what you need to protect what it is you're protecting.

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

9 hours ago, Jackviator said:

No... Which is kinda why I only listed Wail as the only thing in her kit to have any type of synergy with anything else.

Naramon isn't part of her kit. Why even mention it?

If things are getting out of control, that's your cue to continue repositioning yourself, not suddenly believe you're going to be able to face-tank a bunch of enemies running at you all at once; you'll just get shot by anything that's out of SQ's range. And if things need to be protected, that's not really a job suited to Banshee's skill set, unless killing things quickly is what you need to protect what it is you're protecting.

That it isn't in her kit doesn't mean that she doesn't have access or it or can't use it. She's among the best frames fit for it actually, next to, ironicly, mesa, beein another frame with the same auto-pilot short stuns, and volt who can stun pretty effective with a melee weapon equipped. Keeping it going is one thing, activating it is suicide tho for most frames in a level range where enemys are able to oneshot you, not for her tho.... Neather are any kind of weapons in her kit but you're still using them, are you not?

Idk eather what kinda snipers you got but i NEVER got shot using quake, even on that middle ground range i found for myself. Then again, you're talking runs where you ignore 100% of the enemys till they become a problem i assume? ...

Most frames have a stupid first ability in theyr kit that noone cares about, why is it that you have a problem with a actually usefull ultimate? She does have this rather amazing skillset after all, which has full synergy with how i play her.

Edited March 2, 2017 by (PS4)CoolD2108

[Azamagon]

Good post OP.

Now, I generally have two opinions on abilities that don't fit well within a kit:

1) Change it up so it can synergize with the rest of the kit better, by giving more options

2) If it seems nigh impossible to fix it up, then scrap the ability with something better.

In Banshee's case, I'm of either opinion, although leaning more towards the 2nd (scrapping it). Sure, Soundquake might not fit her overall playstyle, but what if Soundquake was changed so the other skills worked well while Soundquake was active? Kind of like a "mode-shift".

So, going with version 1 (fixing up the existing ability), I'd go with something along these lines:

* Lessening the cheese - Instead of SQ causing constant staggers, it could just be causing a constant weak slow+pushback effect (note, that means soft CC, as enemies can run their way through if they keep pushing forward, and can still attack), but to compensate for the removed hard-CC, her survivability goes up in some way. The survivability could be that she also creates some form of small "sound-dome" around her, which has X amount of health, but which also has constant heavy regeneration. Melee attacks ignores the sound-dome and attacks Banshee directly... which leads me to the next point...

* Improving the interactivity - Banshee can still cast her other abilities during SQ + can aim freely and shoot out powerful hitscan soundbeams (which can hit Sonar spots, maybe scale with primary weapon mods?) by using primary fire + can create semi-wide soundwaves (think something in between Frost's Ice Wave and Nidus' Virulence in size), which ragdolls away multiple enemies with moderate damage, by casting Sonic Boom during it.
This means that she can protect herself further by using Sonic Boom and Silence, while sniping enemies (more powerfully with Sonar) with her new primary fire soundbeam attack.

Pretty much: Make her some kind of more interactive sniper-turret-bunker while it is active. This still allows her to have the "mode-shift" she currently has, but it would be far less AFK.

Going with version 2 (replacing it), there are multiple things one could do ofc. I'd give her something which grants her indirect survivability: Heightened mobility, invisibility, evasion, decoys, stuff like that. Preferably something that fits both the Banshee spiritual lore (pretty much being: A Banshee wails when someone has died / is about to die, as some kind of omenous mourning), and her sneaky-esque Sniper-style would be nice. Some ideas:

--- Wailing Echo: Banshee places a Wailing Echo at her location (while possibly also dashing forward, similar to a void dash, towards her aimed direction?). The Wailing Echo is a decoy which has very high aggro, has high health and very strong healthregen, and causes a constant mild slowdown and moderate accuracy debuff on nearby enemies, along with also possibly continuously increasing the damage they suffer up to a cap (fits the "imminent death" lore, but might be overkill considering Sonar also being in her kit), in a large radius. 50 energy.

--- Ghost Shroud: Banshee emits a ghostly shroud around her, making enemies outside a certain range completely unable to see her (practically invisibility, with a range-limit). The quicker she moves, the greater the range it gets (i.e., she is detected more easily if she runs around swiftly). Standing still shrinks the range to its minimal size, making her only visible to enemies who are basicly touching her. Energydrain ability (think 5/sec?).
Ghost Shroud caters both to her intended sneaky sniper style (in a camo-fashion), and also has a somewhat similar feel to her current slow (or rather, completely immoblie) Soundquake, so it still has a bit of that "modeshift" she currently has, just far less cheesy.

Eh, just random quick ideas, probably either too bad or too good *shrugs*

 

Edited March 1, 2017 by Azamagon

[(PSN)KnowLedge]

Man she is wicked! 266% power strength is nice!

Edited March 2, 2017 by (PS4)KnowLedge

[Mattoropael]

21 hours ago, Jackviator said:

Part 2: Over-Aged Cheese

Resonating Quake is THE AFK farming mod for Defense and Interception. It turns her into the most "press 4 to win" frame I've seen since the days of AFK Turret Mesa. All you have to do to succeed at Interception and Defense missions is to press 4 and move around every 50 seconds or so to prevent the AFK timer from kicking in. A RQ Banshee and an EV Trinity can get you through any and all defensive-type missions with literally zero effort.

Essentially, if you're looking for an enjoyable combat experience in a defensive-type game, and a RQ Banshee is on your team, you just won't get it. All the enemies are SOL as soon as they load in, unable to act or pose any threat, dying by the truckload and leaving all the loot they drop at the spawn-points. It's essentially the equivalent of Ember, ValTace or MiraMulor in PuG linear mission types; that is to say, the attitude of "I've decided that we're all going to get through this mission with as little combat gameplay as possible, and none of you can do anything about it," but somehow even worse because you don't even get any loot out of it unless you're willing to partake in a scavenger hunt. (And before anyone suggests it, I'm not gonna play solo, with my clan or with friends, and those are band-aid solutions anyway).

.... And how often do you run into both a RQ Banshee and a EV Trin when you don't join a specialist group (i.e. you asked for the boredom)?

Ember is mobile and energy-efficient enough to sustain WoF on energy orbs from kills, Simulor Mirages create energy out of thin air with the Suda procs. A RQ Banshee on the other hand is entirely dependent on either a EV Trin or popping energy pizzas to quickly recover from an empty tank after Quake burned all energy. And guess what? EV Trin are less fun than watching grass grow to "play" (i.e. they don't exist when they aren't specifically requested), and energy pizzas are rather resource intensive (i.e. most players don't spam them).

While I'm partial to the idea that Banshee's kit could use a look, saying "IT'S CHEESE LIKE EMBER AND SYNOID MIRAGE" only serves to detract from your argument.

[(PSN)MrNishi]

12 hours ago, Chipputer said:

Not when used appropriately. As in not out in the open. The augment is what has made it a problem because it never was before then.

Banshee's Sound Quake used to have an Invulnerability phase back when it was Duration only before being changed to Channeled.

Also it used to knockdown Osprey.

Currently high-level Osprey (Especially Mutalist and Sapping) can really ruin a Banshee's day.

(I still don't understand why Blind works on Osprey but Silence has no effect...Why?)*

I do agree that Normal Sound Quake was meant to be activated in a safe corner while allowing Banshee's shields to recharge. Except the game has moved forward from the days when Shields were better to mod for over health. (Before we had the numerous ways of healing ourselves.)

A change for something more mobile that can work better with her kit, would be most welcome.

 

-My opinions

[Shockwave-]

De is waiting until they have sold all the prime access they can, then they will nerf soundquake.

[Jackviator]

On 3/2/2017 at 9:13 AM, Shockwave- said:

De is waiting until they have sold all the prime access they can, then they will nerf soundquake.

They didn't do that with World on Fire when Ember P was re-released, and I've seen a lot more criticism related to WoF then anything about Sound Quake.

'Sides, imo Sound Quake shouldn't just be nerfed; it should be either mechanically rebuilt from the ground up to work well with her kit, or scrapped and replaced with something else.

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

18 hours ago, Jackviator said:

They didn't do that with World on Fire when Ember P was re-released, and I've seen a lot more criticism related to WoF then anything about Sound Quake.

'Sides, imo Sound Quake shouldn't just be nerfed; it should be either mechanically rebuilt from the ground up to work well with her kit, or scrapped and replaced with something else.

I give the hype a month to calm down. Banshee's gonna be considered a trash tierl again by then (simply because she needs input to be played and is boring on meta) and the threads will stop.

 

I'm sure they're perfectly aware of that. She's still among the best frames in the game to those who can appreciate her tho.

Edited March 4, 2017 by (PS4)CoolD2108

[Sakatchi]

On 2/28/2017 at 11:19 PM, --Laughing-Soul-- said:

+

Banshee is the cheese frame though, since she can give a 945% damage multiplier with her sonar, provided you can aim at the glowing spots.

Only reason why people use nova over her is the fact nova has a hard cc, where as banshe can tickle them for a second, or knock one thing on their butts at a time.

I also like both proposed sound quake reworks.

[BoomyGordo]

On 3/2/2017 at 3:19 AM, (PS4)MrNishi said:

(I still don't understand why Blind works on Osprey but Silence has no effect...Why?)*

osprey have cameras but not ears

[(PSN)MrNishi]

4 hours ago, --Laughing-Soul-- said:

osprey have cameras but not ears

That makes sense.

I assume it is the same with Hyena Pack as they are not affected by silence either but are by blind.

 

Will definitely find out if it is consistent when Bard frame arrives.

 

Side-note: As a Grand Master, do you recall when Blinded enemies still ran around or shot back rather than being incapacitated.

I recall enemies needing to Be both Blinded and Deafened to be incapacitated.

[BoomyGordo]

4 hours ago, (PS4)MrNishi said:

That makes sense.

I assume it is the same with Hyena Pack as they are not affected by silence either but are by blind.

 

Will definitely find out if it is consistent when Bard frame arrives.

 

Side-note: As a Grand Master, do you recall when Blinded enemies still ran around or shot back rather than being incapacitated.

I recall enemies needing to Be both Blinded and Deafened to be incapacitated.

way back then when you blinded enemies they just ran around aimlessly, like the instant you used blind, they started to run in random directions and never took cover. sometimes they ended up just sprinting in circles, it was quite amusing to watch. then there was a period of time when they would keep shooting where they were before, much like now when you turn invisible right infront of them, and would shoot at any noise you made. now they have the staggering animation that makes blinds so much better in general.

Edited March 5, 2017 by --Laughing-Soul--

[(PSN)MrNishi]

1 hour ago, --Laughing-Soul-- said:

way back then when you blinded enemies they just ran around aimlessly, like the instant you used blind, they started to run in random directions and never took cover. sometimes they ended up just sprinting in circles, it was quite amusing to watch. then there was a period of time when they would keep shooting where they were before, much like now when you turn invisible right infront of them, and would shoot at any noise you made. now they have the staggering animation that makes blinds so much better in general.

The Blind where they shoot like current invisibility to me makes sense after a fixed let's say 3sec stagger.

I guess I in the minority that feels current Blind is a tad too strong with stagger stun lasting entirety of Blind duration.

[(PSN)Cynicaid]

Banshee's flaw is that she's still squishy even Primed and has no reliable/lasting cc or defense abilities. By the time her damage potential is actually useful, enemies have scaled enough to insta-gib her at will.

 

Sound Quake is... Well I'd happily throw it away for something active. Silence also needs another look since the silencing aspect is now her passive and the stun is too short lived and triggers only once when entering the field of influence.