Coming Soon: Weapon Balance Pass.

[Volinus7]

From my view, this is what salty part of warframe community looks like right now.....

Edited March 24, 2017 by Volinus7
lel this one looks better and less severe.

[SilverWF]

2 hours ago, plastictrash said:

 

So true...

[Koyaanisqatsi]

3 hours ago, ACGIFT said:

I like how you said "nerfs" and failed to mention the 10+ buffs, which kinda alerted everyone to your reasoning... I suppose given that you're a Tonkor main that's to be expected.

Warframe is a game with more than one player. And because it's not competitive, the goal is for players to all HAVE FUN, which technically makes balance even *more* crucial than in a PvP game; in the latter, "fun" isn't as much an objective, so the player workaround of tier lists and limited selection can work. (see: League of Legends, etc.)

It's not something many players ever think about at all, but for a game developer, it's important to find a good balance in power, because part of the "fun" is players feeling awesome because they can see their skill is netting rewards. "Bad balance" means that this result is being prevented by one of many things, which all apply to PvE. And one of them is "some player goes through with a zero-skill weapon and insta-wipes all enemies." So you can be running with a weapon with great damage, and be really skilled at using it, but it doesn't matter because there's one weapon that trivializes the game's content.

So, it leaves the other players with only two choices: they can either take that zero-skill AoE spam, or they can stick with their skillful weapon. Neither is fun: the former means that none of their skill has an impact anyway because they will ALWAYS do amazing even if they suck, and the latter also means their skill doesn't make an impact either, because all the enemies are killed quickly already. Just always going solo isn't an option either, as most of the game's content is designed around assuming squad play. (such as players being punished for opening relics in solo missions)

Good game balance means that any player has some choice in what they take, and can trust that their success will hinge in their own skill.

I'm a Tigris user tenno, and i still can't understand nerfs on an PVE game.
Maybe when users start left the game you can play it in your way.

[MJ12]

I'm going to defend the Simulor nerfs because the Simulor encouraged pudding farming behavior. I'm using the Nethack term pudding farming for a mechanically rewarding (because it is an efficient way to progress in the game) but tedious and unfun way of progressing the game. And the thing is, despite the joke that there is already an inbuilt punishment for playing Mirage Simulor combos in Warframe called 'playing Mirage/Simulor combos,' it is in fact a good idea to remove pudding farming so that people don't have to choose between a fun but mechanically suboptimal route and an unfun but mechanically optimal route.

That should be the primary reason of PvE nerfs-to keep people having fun. The problem is that the tonkor nerfs aren't there. The Tonkor, as many people mentioned, isn't particularly OP.

Even if it was, the people going "self damage is a minor change" are right-and that's why it's a pointless addition. In a good team, self-damage is irrelevant. You've killed the mobs in question, some guy will saunter over and revive you. If you have a bad team, you spend 15 seconds and lose a revive. If you're in the situations where the Tonkor is "OP"-swarms of enemies coming out of a single chokepoint in predictable intervals-nothing stops you from perching on a crate or something and firing without any care. The Tonkor PBAoE is done at (duh) melee range, and plenty of melee weapons have huge close-in damage output and very solid swing arcs, giving comparable close-range devastation.

Warframe is a game where people spend a lot of time fighting at melee range, to instantly down yourself if you end up accidentally firing at that range is a huge penalty beyond most third person shooters (where you don't spend most of your time in melee) and given the power of melee weapons I'm pretty sure it's an unnecessary nerf.

[Roachester]

1 hour ago, Dailus said:

Solo mode? Play with friends only? there a several if not hundreds of ppl in this same thread that consider the same thing.

Except that isn't a solution, but rather a roundabout way of ignoring the problem. In an MMO that focuses primarily on co-operative play, nobody should have to limit who they play with so heavily just to properly experience said co-operative play.

1 hour ago, Dailus said:

If you are disturbed by others don't let you TEST a build or charge your nidus cause an "OP" ember/banshee is doing all the killing or a simulor/tonkor is blasting everything then you should not aim those... instead be a man and go hardcore by yourself pushing you to your own limits and getting better and better. This game IS GREAT to push you that way and do it each time better than before trough hard effort and work.

Or they could just take direct approach and ask the people in charge to do something about it.

Which they did, and now here we are. What a weird turn of events.

1 hour ago, Dailus said:

Like i said before... the whiners are mostly players that even have the MR to get a Simulor or are to lazy to farm Mirage or are to lazy to make a 7forma tonkor build and their fun is going to hidron, be on 10 waves and repeat.

Got a source for this?

1 hour ago, Dailus said:

Have you been on Hidron lately? the new players don't even reach the C rotation!!! they just go 5 or 10 waves and go out.

I play 100% solo, so that's not something I'd pay attention to.

1 hour ago, Dailus said:

YEs! pretty outstanding opinion from in game deep content when they even push themselves to go a bit further.

I don't even know what you're trying to say here.

1 hour ago, Dailus said:

I stop using Tonkor and Simulor when i get access to a +120 enemies on the Cefalon Simaris Simulator and realize those two are S#&$ with end game enemies. So i push my self and work on some out of the box build on some "unknow OP" weapons to beat them really easier and faster than a using a simulor even with mirage or a full modded+god riven tonkor with a head shot on them.

Cool. When level 120+ enemies become a regular occurrence outside of endless missions, maybe that'll mean something. Assuming that never happens, weapons like the Simulor and Tonkor would have remained a huge problem for people had something not been done about them.

1 hour ago, Dailus said:

So my point here is... the whiners even use that simulator to test warframe, skills, weapons. They don't have even formas on their warframes or just two on a weapon.

Why does that matter? This isn't about what gear the "whiners" use, it's about what gear those they "whine" about use, which is apparently gear that prevents them and other teammates from doing anything during whatever missions they're playing.

1 hour ago, Dailus said:

Making happy those whiners just will take this game to a mediocre way from now on.

According to you and a handful of other people, sure.

1 hour ago, Dailus said:

Oh that's too difficult! DE please consider to nerf those enemies or nerf the weapons that can kill them. Instead of making things even mor difficult and more challenging for the CORE of the players.

The fact that you're getting so bent out of shape over these nerfs makes me wonder what your definition of the word "challenge" really is.

1 hour ago, Dailus said:

Yes ppl that already spend $ because they fall in love of this game like me and are now considering quiting cause the mainstream population is anoyed by Simulor Visuals or tired cause a Tonkor lover getting top dmg on a mission. Maybe is because Simulor is being using with Mirage and Tonkor with Vauban Eternal Vortex/Bastille build that can group mobs and blast them easier? no... that's way to deep to understand that some weapons and warframes skills can synergyse to make better results for whiners!

Once again, it's not about getting the most kills, it's about being able to do literally anything while other people nuke entire groups of enemies with wanton abandon.

[(XBOX)Onyx Schnee]

My vauban prime's primary is Tonkor, I'm curious at how this'll affect his performance.

if Tonkor's changes prove to be too detrimental i'll give the glaxion a shot. It might be a useful weapon since my Vauban is made to utilize a more versatile arsenal compared to my otger frames.

[Sir_Bowen]

On 22.3.2017 at 7:07 PM, [DE]Rebecca said:

Weapon Balance Pass.
 

As we near the staggering number of 300 weapons (including variants), the task of balancing grows increasingly daunting. At its core, Warframe is a co-operative game; having powerful tools is a boon to a team rather than a disadvantage. However, there are a few weapons that have such a dominating effect in missions that co-operative missions essentially become solo. Aside from the handful of dominating weapons, there are even more that have been overlooked.

We have taken a look at our Arsenal and adjusted many weapons - mostly Primaries at this time. Everything below is subject to change. This is our current plan and gives you a general idea of what is coming in the next big Update!

We have buffed 10 underpowered weapons which have unique mechanics that have been overlooked due to their poor stats.

Miter, Harpak, Hind, Panthera, Paracyst, Mutalist Quanta, Buzlok, Glaxion, Ogris, Attica, Tonkor, Simulor, Synoid Simulor, Telos Boltace

If you have invested into a nerfed weapon, when the Update releases there will be an Inbox message generated on Login to give you a single 3 day Affinity Booster and a Forma per owned weapon to reconfigure your weapons as you see fit!

Regarding any Rivens you may have or are looking to pick up for any of the listed weapons: you can expect small changes to stats. Stay tuned for more information in the Update notes!

Thank you Tenno - see you soon.

Nice to see weapons get a rework (buff or nerf doesnt matter)

But some fully Formaed Weapons (some with 5 or more) need a complete new rebuild now.

So i may ask, is there a way to get all the used Forma back to rebuild these Weapons ?

Edited March 24, 2017 by Tasmanian_Devil

[TekNek]

"If you have invested into a nerfed weapon, when the Update releases there will be an Inbox message generated on Login to give you a single 3 day Affinity Booster and a Forma per owned weapon to reconfigure your weapons as you see fit!"

So will we get this if we only forma'd the weapon or mod it or have a catalyst installed? I only modded the weapon and have a catalyst installed :/ 

 

Thanks

[Tau.]

1 hour ago, Volinus7 said:

From my view, this is what salty part of warframe community looks like right now.....

Lost it at this gif. Props. Wish I could upvote more than once.

Also I haven't bothered to pore over 40 pages of salt and pepper, but has this little qol issue been brought up at all? Sniper rifles could really use innate silencing, or an extra mod slot specifically only for a silencer mod. No need to buff the numbers or anything, just give them that one little property. Some fellow sniper lovers might know what I'm talking about. 

[Koyaanisqatsi]

Why not fix the enemy scaling instead?

[Ta10S]

Why DE don't use "average" number of put formas for compensation of these nerfed weapons?

I thought you really love "average" because you set cost of Mutagen Sample about HEMA based on "average" ownership of players.

[EquesDei]

1 hour ago, Volinus7 said:

From my view, this is what salty part of warframe community looks like right now.....

Thank you for using Sakamoto instead of saltbae

[_Wottan_]

I'd like to offer some guidance in hopes for DE to read this comment... Yeah playing with RNG even in forums.

What makes warframe so good is that you can mod your loadout in evary aspect, I recommend that the "cooldown" of the telos boltace is at most a third spin attack with no extra effects; or one of those normal spin attacks every other attack. That way you can still mod the weapon to fit your play stile and avoid adding one of the worst balance measures there are to be for a fast paced game to which there are no mods: melee weapon cooldowns.

For the simulor weapons, you can make inversely strong the pull of the individual shots to the stacks they have. A fully stacked singularity should pull less other shots than non-stacked shots. It is counterintuitive but gameplaywise it helps to stack faster and make more fully stacked singularities. Simulor weapons only work op with mirage because she shots 3 convergent shots, trying to grow stacks with another frame is less practical because the time it takes for shots to reach each other is too long to be op and usually offer a wide window for enemies to attack. Now considering that the event of stacking is not what we have to wait for but the full 3 stacks to complete to deal decent damage it is giving the enemy more than enough time to kill you. Now that you are nerfing it, firestorm would be hepful to make practical non-stack builds. Give versatility to the weapon you are about to ruin, not just mindlessly ragenerf it because players didn't played with other weapons you worked so hard to design.

[ControversyB]

If asked what weapons needed a nerf, I think the Telos Boltace and Synoid Simulor would be the first things out of anyone's mouth. Anyone who doesn't approve need only refer to the statement in the original post - those weapons reduce a squad to a "one-man-and-three-bozos" show.

[(XBOX)Sneak Attack 65]

I'm looking forward to the changes to Miter, Mutalist Quanta, and Telos Boltace.

Edited March 24, 2017 by (XB1)Sneak Attack 65
Autocorrect got me

[Tau.]

30 minutes ago, _Wottan_ said:

 

I'd like to offer some guidance in hopes for DE to read this comment... Yeah playing with RNG even in forums.

What makes warframe so good is that you can mod your loadout in evary aspect, I recommend that the "cooldown" of the telos boltace is at most a third spin attack with no extra effects; or one of those normal spin attacks every other attack. That way you can still mod the weapon to fit your play stile and avoid adding one of the worst balance measures there are to be for a fast paced game to which there are no mods: melee weapon cooldowns.

 

This was almost certainly because of the boltace macro spammers, who would still be an issue if the fix didn't involve a cooldown. 

And believe it or not, I'm actually looking forward to the simulor changes. Too long have people gotten away with brainlessly spamming what was originally intended to be a complex, nerdy, tactical weapon. That stigma honestly made me ashamed of it showing up on my stats page from my early days in this game when I couldn't aim yet. Massive status on an already-guaranteed-electric-proc-on-top-of-it bomb (that'll be easier to set up) could open up some neat possibilities. I just wish that as part of the pass, they'd do something about its obnoxious derpy firing sound. 

Edited March 24, 2017 by SpaceBad

[Seir]

Finally, as a person that has over 30k kills with the telos boltace alone, I am happy to see it die along side with the Tonkor. It is time for a meta shift. Get people using different weapons, instead of the generic load-out. Then people complain that the game is getting boring and it's always the same, but they never change weapons. Logic is non-existent. And when a change does come, they turn this forum into a bigger salt mine than League of Legends. I welcome the change with open arms. But fix your garbage armor scaling. That's all I ask. 

Edited March 24, 2017 by NSAlovesMe

[(PSN)THEFREAK420]

11 minutes ago, ControversyB said:

If asked what weapons needed a nerf, I think the Telos Boltace and Synoid Simulor would be the first things out of anyone's mouth. Anyone who doesn't approve need only refer to the statement in the original post - those weapons reduce a squad to a "one-man-and-three-bozos" show.

Only if the other 3 WERE bozos, and its their fault, not the simulor. I can out kill, out damage a mirage with simulor MOST of the time with equinox, ember, banshee, saryn, or Mag depending on situation and enemies. With just about any weapon. But that was before i deleted the game last night.  Bottom line is they're nerfing clear favorites and buffing really weak, good for nothing weapons.  Wow more crit & status on a miter? Still terrible. Ditto for all the others getting buffed, worthless in high level mobs. Ogris will be easier to kill yourself now with bigger blast radius, but they still lowered initial damage, thats a buff?  These nerfs are a slap in the face to some of their most devoted players, i hope more follow me out the exit.

[_Wottan_]

5 minutes ago, NSAlovesMe said:

Finally, as a person that has over 30k kills with the telos boltace alone, I am happy to see it die along side with the Tonkor. It is time for a meta shift. Get people using different weapons, instead of the generic load-out. Then people complain that the game is getting boring and it's always the same, but they never change weapons. Logic is non-existent. And when a change does come, they turn this forum into a bigger salt mine than League of Legends. I welcome the change with open arm. But fix your garbage armor scaling. That's all I ask. 

I can say it is fixed in a sense, I have more than one solution against it. ; )  Edit: the solutions I consider are beyond cp

And I like change too, but done the right way is always better.

Edited March 24, 2017 by _Wottan_

[Seir]

59 minutes ago, _Wottan_ said:

I can say it is fixed in a sense, I have more than one solution against it. ; )

And I like change too, but done the right way is always better.

It doesn't actually matter how DE goes about it. The community will always turn this into a Salt factory. 

 

As for the armor scaling, it can be easily countered with a specific set up, but having the same style of gameplay if you wish to stay longer than 70 minutes on a survival can get boring, also not mentioning that there's no reward for staying that long either. 

[Mrblazedemingo]

ah dang! I JUST FORMA'd MY TONKOR :(

but I still got a free forma.. but still :( unlucky

Edited March 24, 2017 by Mrblazedemingo

[Justinism]

I honestly dont think the mechanics of the Telos boltace should be changed that drastically, either nerfed outright or slightly tweaked maybe, but not changed to the suggested mechanic. The new mechanic doesnt fit in the slightest for the weapon aesthetic or supposed function and seems more appropriate for the heliocor, i.e. spin attack or slam attack causes a vacuum of X meters, in line with the simulor

perhaps a more appropriate mechanic would be to apply charges to the spin attack proc that fill up after some time, like growing quills to be shot out. these procs cause enemies that do not die to get pinned to a wall/on the spot for 5 seconds, That way, the weapon is not totally consigned to the bin, and is actually encouraging strategic play.

[(PSN)THEFREAK420]

11 minutes ago, Mrblazedemingo said:

ah dang! I JUST FORMA'd MY TONKOR :(

but I still got a free forma.. but still :( unlucky

Youre lucky you didnt put 6-8 formas like most did with their doomed weapons. Or drop 100's or 1000's of platinum on a riven for it. Heres a forma , get back to chasing the carrot, with weaker weapons now, so everything will take longer.

[RevanZim]

I really only have one problem with these changes: the fact that they added self-damage. I'm not mad that they nerfed the Tonkor. I'm mad at how they nerfed it.

Whether you loved or hated the Tonkor, it showed how fun explosive weapons can be without extremely high self-damage attached to them. This move basically means that DE has no intention of removing (or at least reducing or capping) self-damage any time soon. This is bad, because self-damage is just as outdated a mechanic as the Tonkor rocket jump was. The only point it serves is to reduce fun. It's also very counter-intuitive: In a game without friendly fire (excluding radiation procs), why can I kill myself with these certain weapons, but not my team? Why does the Simulor not do self-damage? Why not the Zarr bomblets? No wait, the Zarr bomblets actually DID self-damage, but it was removed. You can easily guess why: it was unfun and unnecessary. Just like all self-damage in this game. Now if we had shield gating (and maybe even health gating as well), this would probably be much less of a problem. Annoying, still, but perhaps manageable. But we don't have that (yet?). Even though it was promised, it's taking an extremely long time to arrive. And even if we had it, it would not fix the core problem with self-damage, just make it more bearable.

Instead of adding self-damage to the Tonkor, it should have been nerfed in it's raw stats more, and all the other self-damage weapons should have been on the list of buffs to cap their self-damage at a flat 100 damage, or maybe 5% of the total weapon damage. Or have it removed entirely.

But not this. Not adding more. This is a step back, not forward. In the small chance someone from DE is actually reading this: please reconsider or tell the people with the power to change this to reconsider.

Edited March 24, 2017 by RevanZim
some fixes/clarifications

[Lancars]

55 minutes ago, Justinism said:

I honestly dont think the mechanics of the Telos boltace should be changed that drastically, either nerfed outright or slightly tweaked maybe, but not changed to the suggested mechanic. The new mechanic doesnt fit in the slightest for the weapon aesthetic or supposed function and seems more appropriate for the heliocor, i.e. spin attack or slam attack causes a vacuum of X meters, in line with the simulor

perhaps a more appropriate mechanic would be to apply charges to the spin attack proc that fill up after some time, like growing quills to be shot out. these procs cause enemies that do not die to get pinned to a wall/on the spot for 5 seconds, That way, the weapon is not totally consigned to the bin, and is actually encouraging strategic play.

I like this guill idea. Fits this weapons family idea.