compensation for nerfs: a tweak

[BoomyGordo]

instead of one forma per weapon why not give back the ammount of forma spent per weapon? ie if they just have the weapon then they get no forma but if they formad the weapon they get back forma for each forma they put on it. that way if they decide they dont like the new stats at all they can use it on another weapon?

[Regenerating_Degenerate]

How about just waiting and experiencing what it is like before you all go nuts and ask for more fixes insesently. 

[BoomyGordo]

1 minute ago, Regenerating_Degenerate said:

How about just waiting and experiencing what it is like before you all go nuts and ask for more fixes insesently. 

im not asking for fixes, and i have no problem with any of the changes, just thinking it would be nice to get more than 1 forma out of a 6 forma build if you suddenly dont like the weapon anymore.

[-N7-Leonhart]

4 minutes ago, --Laughing-Soul-- said:

im not asking for fixes, and i have no problem with any of the changes, just thinking it would be nice to get more than 1 forma out of a 6 forma build if you suddenly dont like the weapon anymore.

Sure, if they were to remove all the forma from the said weapons first. Otherwise, there is no guarantee you will never use the weapon. Also, should they remove Forma from us for every weapon they buffed instead?

[BoomyGordo]

Just now, -N7-Leonhart said:

Sure, if they were to remove all the forma from the said weapons first. Otherwise, there is no guarantee you will never use the weapon. Also, should they remove Forma from us for every weapon they buffed instead?

maybe. actually a better idea would be to allow the option of a refund. if you dont like a weapon post nerf/buff then support is allowed to remove the weapon and refund the forma on it? the more i type this the more this idea seems like a ton of work for DE

[(PSN)XxDarkyanxX]

4 minutes ago, --Laughing-Soul-- said:

maybe. actually a better idea would be to allow the option of a refund. if you dont like a weapon post nerf/buff then support is allowed to remove the weapon and refund the forma on it? the more i type this the more this idea seems like a ton of work for DE

Lets not give the opportunity for players to fill in 20 support tickets every minutes just to get a refund by making that an option.

[(XBOX)DShinShoryuken]

Hmmmm.....

Let's say DE removes the FORMA from all the "nerfed" weapons.....players decide they do not want to reinvest all that time into doing the weapons again and use FORMA on another weapon. Then others crymoan that they did not get a choice and all the work they did to get those 6 FORMA on are now wasted. Some complain about how they did not get any FORMA for having sold their weapon a while ago because it was not right for them after putting 2 FORMA in.....but they needed space.

Giving of 1 FORMA with a Booster for 3 days is generous. You can try the weapons out with the FORMA Polarities you placed on, see what needs to be changed, and then FORMA if needed. If you refuse to use the weapon again, just keep the FORMA that came with it. An option of a refund makes no sense. If you buy a car, deck it out, race it and win a few times and then find out that the fuel has gone up to 10.00 for race gas, you do not tell the manufacturer that you want a refund for all the time and items you put into the car.....you either drive the car and race still or you stop racing. Terrible analogy.....but i am tired.

Check out the weapons with the change and if it is not your style......play other weapons or play other games.

[Xzorn]

Well if the nerfs were actually a balance pass instead of an over aggressive removal of the item's viability. The compensation would seem more acceptable.

The objective of a balance pass is to create better competition between items and their use.

In case of the current stat changes the nerfed items in question will never be used again. Hence failed Balance pass and many wasted resources.

[Tsardova]

26 minutes ago, (Xbox One)DShinShoryuken said:

Hmmmm.....

Let's say DE removes the FORMA from all the "nerfed" weapons.....players decide they do not want to reinvest all that time into doing the weapons again and use FORMA on another weapon. Then others crymoan that they did not get a choice and all the work they did to get those 6 FORMA on are now wasted. Some complain about how they did not get any FORMA for having sold their weapon a while ago because it was not right for them after putting 2 FORMA in.....but they needed space.

Giving of 1 FORMA with a Booster for 3 days is generous. You can try the weapons out with the FORMA Polarities you placed on, see what needs to be changed, and then FORMA if needed. If you refuse to use the weapon again, just keep the FORMA that came with it. An option of a refund makes no sense. If you buy a car, deck it out, race it and win a few times and then find out that the fuel has gone up to 10.00 for race gas, you do not tell the manufacturer that you want a refund for all the time and items you put into the car.....you either drive the car and race still or you stop racing. Terrible analogy.....but i am tired.

Check out the weapons with the change and if it is not your style......play other weapons or play other games.

That's.... a pretty suicidal way of thinking.... especially for a game that NEEDS concurrent players to stay afloat.

1 Forma and 3 day booster is not generous by any stretch of the mind if you take into account that some people can't play for long stretches of time per day to maximize their free booster and most people invested in more than 1 forma per weapon since these "broken weapons" often came with very little or without any polarities to begin with. I.e. you really have to invest in formas to bring out their potential, yet all that investment is thrown out the window in an instant.

And no.... cars are rl investments where you often have to limit yourself/ make compromises as to what you like over what you get to keep that will last you for possibly the next half decade or more, you're effectively compromising with rl limitations.

This game is meant to make you feel empowered, from the 1st time your frame gets pooped out from the pod to the end of the war within, every single narrative points in the game pushes that sense of empowerment and growth to you as a player/ Tenno. You're meant to be able to achieve absurd feat be it your own skill or your ingame gear should you invest in them. There's supposed to be little to no repercussion per se for your investment in your weaponry, you're circumventing limitations cause you have the power to in games unlike in real live where you have to necessitate priorities, etc.

Killing off people's sense of empowerment in a game via weapon breaking nerfs/ uneven compensation is likely to put people off, putting them off like that means they'll likely ditch the game and move onto another game, them moving onto another game = less active population in this game and before long you'll be left with very little numbers of concurrent players no matter how strong you think the player base (by number) is..... again, such a suicidal way of thinking.

Edited March 24, 2017 by Tsardova

[(XBOX)DShinShoryuken]

3 minutes ago, Tsardova said:

That's.... a pretty suicidal way of thinking.... especially for a game that NEEDS concurrent players to stay afloat.

1 Forma and 3 day booster is not generous by any stretch of the mind if you take into account that some people can't play for long stretches of time per day to maximize their free booster and most people invested in more than 1 forma per weapon since these "broken weapons" often came with very little or without any polarities to begin with. I.e. you really have to invest in formas to bring out their potential, yet all that investment is thrown out the window in an instant.

And no.... cars are rl investments where you often have to limit yourself/ make compromises as to what you like over what you get to keep that will last you for possibly the next half decade or more, you're effectively compromising with rl limitations.

This game is meant to make you feel empowered, from the 1st time your frame gets pooped out from the pod to the end of the war within, every single narrative points in the game pushes that sense of empowerment and growth to you as a player/ Tenno. You're meant to be able to achieve absurd feat be it your own skill or your ingame gear should you invest in them. There's supposed to be little to no repercussion per se for your investment in your weaponry, you're circumventing limitations cause you have the power to in games unlike in real live where you have to necessitate priorities, etc.

Killing off people's sense of empowerment in a game via weapon breaking nerfs/ uneven compensation is likely to put people off, putting them off like that means they'll likely ditch the game and move onto another game, them moving onto another game = less active population in this game and before long you'll be left with very little numbers of concurrent players no matter how strong you think the player base (by number) is..... again, it's such a suicidal way of thinking.

If a player quit anytime something gets nerfed in a game....they should not be playing games. That is too much entitlement that you think the player base needs IMO. 

It is not suicidal because if a player is going to kill themselves over changes....they better just stop playing games all together. The game may make some people feel empowered but it makes others feel entertained or cooperative or trollish or mentoring. It is different things to different players but it is the brainchild and work effort of DE. They could have done the changes and said so be it. 

Players get off on the littlest things to boredom to a new game came out. They leave, come back, get bored....new shiny is out....repeat and rinse. Then they crymoan that there is no challenge after pumping 6 forma into everything. Then they crymoan when something is changed in an ever changing video game. I been playing games since the 2600 came out and seen many changes...but never so much crying about it. If the game is supposed to make players feel empowered....it does not carry over for some to the real world.

I am tired....I go 😴

[Tsardova]

16 minutes ago, (Xbox One)DShinShoryuken said:

If a player quit anytime something gets nerfed in a game....they should not be playing games. That is too much entitlement that you think the player base needs IMO. 

It is not suicidal because if a player is going to kill themselves over changes....they better just stop playing games all together. The game may make some people feel empowered but it makes others feel entertained or cooperative or trollish or mentoring. It is different things to different players but it is the brainchild and work effort of DE. They could have done the changes and said so be it. 

Players get off on the littlest things to boredom to a new game came out. They leave, come back, get bored....new shiny is out....repeat and rinse. Then they crymoan that there is no challenge after pumping 6 forma into everything. Then they crymoan when something is changed in an ever changing video game. I been playing games since the 2600 came out and seen many changes...but never so much crying about it. If the game is supposed to make players feel empowered....it does not carry over for some to the real world.

I am tired....I go 😴

See... there's where you're so... single minded about things.

People value their time differently, the fact that they're willing to invest their time and effort into something else that needs their time in return to stay afloat IS what gives them said entitlement. It's not too much either since time is priceless to begin with, especially if you're in a workforce that needs you to up at least 10 hours a day working.

You're taking the term suicidal literally.....
When I said it I meant suicidal in terms of DE deterring players to play their game pretty much how a corporate business is offing themselves. DE is a business first and foremost and they need US, the audience and gamers/ consumers to stay afloat. Dettering people from returning yo play their game is pretty much killing their own business. I.e. I'm talking about DE as a business entity killing themselves slowly since they're jeopardizing the chance of concurring/ returning player, NOT talking about how suicidal players are over nerfs (top kek......).

"The game may make some people feel empowered but it makes others feel entertained or cooperative or trollish or mentoring"

Ok... what?... making players feel empowered IS making most people feel entertained.... the rest of the sentence made no sense, I'm sorry.

Yes, DE can make the change since it's their game but whether it's a strategically good thing to do is up for debate since again, we are the audience/ customer. They need us as much as we want them.

 

Seriously, every argument you make seem to be like a dog chasing its own tail... you're literally disregarding every other possible scenarios out there and just enforce your own as the only possible scenario, it's rather mind boggling really. Do you honestly think that the same people who are willing to invest time and effort to forma a weapon 6 times and level them 7 times over to optimize something are the same people who "crymoan" about things being op?.... where's the logic in that....

 

"If the game is supposed to make players feel empowered....it does not carry over for some to the real world."

..... #slowclap ..... oml how and why this phrase even came to be.

Best you get some rest and think about some more solid arguments/ thoughts before you start again mate. Ain't makin much of a sense otherwise. 

Edited March 24, 2017 by Tsardova

[-Kramer-]

It should be really simple to me : if i've put 6 formas on a weapon that will be reset by the developers, i should have 6 formas back. Period. 6 formas is 70 plats on the market. Giving me back only 1 forma & affinity booster that I haven't bought or farm and that I don't need, is really not fair to me, and a bit discouraging...

[rudman88]

total of weapon nerfed = 2

so why 1 forma ? give me 2 at least.

and sicne you nerve 2 i need to forma another 2 new weapon.

give me 4 please. xd

[djternan]

They could just add a forma variant that doesn't require you to relevel the weapon every time.  Then when they do these nerfs you can put all the forma back on the weapon or use it towards something else without having to waste more time leveling.

 

The current system feels like buying a phone, gaming console, or something similar.  Then the manufacturer releases an update that bricks said device but they give you a free USB cable as compensation to charge your now useless device.

[(XBOX)DeluxeKnight831]

The forma on your weapons are going to remain intact and DE is giving us 1 forma per weapon we have forma invested in because they are trying to compensate us.In no way is DE obligated to give forma to anyone after the nerfs like in the past. Your forma will not go anywhere after the balancing. stop being greedy 

Edited March 24, 2017 by (XB1)DeluxeKnight831

[(XBOX)DeluxeKnight831]

17 minutes ago, djternan said:

The current system feels like buying a phone, gaming console, or something similar.  Then the manufacturer releases an update that bricks said device but they give you a free USB cable as compensation to charge your now useless device.

these changes are not rendering the weapon useless are they ? How is this even a good comparison ?

[Ta10S]

I don't remember the text of end user license agreement, but I suppose that obligation of this kind of compensation is not written in it.  In this case, whether compensation is enough or not is not written anywhere, only players reaction. If most of  players feel it is not enough, this means the compensation is like "cheese and fruits bundle for bereaved family" .

[Van_Hoven]

Someone said it already, but as hes getting ignored by most let me repeat: the weapon that are getting nerfed arnt "slightly" nerfed, their core mechanics change. Telos Boltace? Aoe on spin attack on cooldown, damage only every 2nd spin. Tonkor? Major damage nerf, flight path changes and self damage. Simulor? Barely no damage on its main damaging mechanic anymore, higher damage on its doubtful main attack.

 

So chances are high those weapons are now TRASH tier. Thats nothing like a"oh you lose 5-10%" damage nerf. If it were like that, 1 forma would be okay (also a nice way to say *** you to all prime access buyers with the free affinity booster)

 

Can't see why its greedy to say that you are disappointed by that and would like a bigger cmpensation.

 

Whats with the players that invested 100s of plats for a decent riven for these weapons? Since with DEs completely random cluster*** of a riven system its nearly impossible to get a decent riven for those weapons by yourself

 

Edit: Dont get me wrong, I think nefing these weapons is long overdue. But i also think a more soft approach to nerfing them would have been better. And punishing players using and investing in a weapon in place since a long time with no sign of acknowledging that they are broken and subject to change is just bad policy. Is it in their right to give players nothing at all? Sure, we cant do anything about it. But it leaves a bad taste in the mouth.

 

If they want to be consistent, banshee saryn and ember have to be next to be nerfed, since they all negate player interaction. I hope you didnt invest into them.

Edited March 24, 2017 by Van_Hoven

[djternan]

57 minutes ago, (Xbox One)DeluxeKnight831 said:

these changes are not rendering the weapon useless are they ? How is this even a good comparison ?

It looks like the Simulor changes are going to be pretty bad.  The damage from stacking orbs will be severely reduced.  I'll give it a try when it comes out but from what I can see, the weapon will be basically useless.

[rudman88]

is okay the riven soon going to be strong and the boost will be 200 - 300%

oh wait for simulor is till weaker.

 

for tonkor too it will be better when riven become fair.

Nope bye red crit

 

so yeap it nerfed real bad xd

[Xzorn]

5 hours ago, (Xbox One)DeluxeKnight831 said:

these changes are not rendering the weapon useless are they ? How is this even a good comparison ?

 

Currently they're rendering them non-competitive which is pretty similar to useless for Warframe.

Simply adding Self-Damage to Tonkor is enough to knock that weapon out of the top spot. Zarr / Penta are far easier to control and in case of Zarr it's also status viable. Tonkor scales like trash against armor but decent in CPx4. It doesn't need it's crit lowered with a slower fire rate in addition to Self-Damage.

Simulor is more of a mine layer weapon now and we all know how good those weapons are. Duncing the converge damage before a Vortex is formed is fine, they wanted to slow the weapon down. I get that but ALL converges, even after a Vortex is created? I agree with the detonation increase in range / damage also since few players use that and should be rewarded but making that function it's main damage source is going to kill that weapon.

Telos Boltace was a mediocre weapon to start without it's niche. The slide damage is attractive but it's weapon reach is abysmal. You're lucky to slide attack 2 enemies with a maxed Primed Reach. I don't see that weapon getting any use after this but in all fairness like I said, it wasn't that great to begin with.

 

I have a total  of 19 Forma, 3 Rivens (30+ Rolls on each, 300k Kuva) and 3 Catalyst invested in these weapons and as of right now, I don't see myself using them after the change. That's a lot of wasted time and resources at no fault of my own simply because DE is really, REALLY bad at balancing.

I personally just want majority of weapons to remain competitive with each other. These nerfs are over aggressive and do not accomplish that.

[INC3NSUS]

First to the person that mentioned Saryn and Ember being limited as far as player interaction.  Cant tell you how much I agree, and they affect every aspect of the game from being on low lvl maps and killing everything before you can if your a noob, to Lens split.  Anyway,  I am fine with nerfs in MODERATION, and when there is excessive need, and TIMELY.  This is not often true in Warframe.  I am still fairly new, my first syndicate weapon was the whip for money, the day before they nerfed it.  From what I understand, this was not timely in anyway.  Moving on to the current weapon nerfs.  Telos is the Only one I agree with only because people could macro the spin to win condition and required little to no skill, I also hate the graphics but that's a personal annoyance.  And yes if you ran simulor with bright colors I probably called you a special snowflake.  Moving on, Dread requires Skill in a super fast moving game period to use compared to telos, spamulor, tonkor.  Tonkor simply put should have been changed long ago if at all. I do not believe it is GREEDY to ask for your forma back for items that have been in the game without change for a LONG time.  Simply put they waited to long, there is a certain amount of expected use in a game.  You can change things but if you Set a precedent and leave it for a long time, then it is on you (DE) to make it right.  Someone mentioned we should not expect compensation for these nerfs. Bull S#&$ bloody W.K. to the rescue rather than look at some of behind the scene reasons were pissed.  I have probably more forma and TIME leveling these weapons than some people have leveling frames. 

P.S.  I was literally tuning a spreadsheet witch tracks a lot of my frame, weapon, and pet info trying to see which frames and which loadouts should use which weapons.  Guess the bright side is I can go back and change that today.  Glad I did the sortie before the hotmess... 

But the Charger looooks Awesome!

Edited March 24, 2017 by BlizArmy

[(PSN)wildcats1369my]

illuminati is real!!! they even want to control how we play this gane by takibg away our cavorite weapons.

 

but seriously i tried the simulor without mirage in sortie and the damage is not that good.

blast weapons with self damage where the enemy ai is to just charge at you is no fun. for balance all explosive should not have self damage.

the prob with boltace is macro but all melee with big range can be macroed to spin to win. 

so far i think this is just another band aid solution to satisfy the nerf loving crybabies who cant deal with the weapon.

[Zookes]

Simulor range has nerfed very very bad.

Damage nerfing is fine, I do not care about this, tho the reason to use it for minor CC with status was only range.