[Update 20] Weapon Balance Pass Feedback Megathread

[pavlo555]

On 31.03.2017 at 5:25 PM, yingji said:

Any slash-based melee weapon with fast attack and some range will help Relentless Combination give you a high combo multiplier in no time; that's the whole point of it. You have to sacrifice a mod for this however. There was nothing special about Telos Boltace in this regard. You'd get the same result from Ack & Brunt, for example. I sure do.

OMFG NERF ACK & BRUNT said no-one, ever.

Go figure.

>Same result

>From a weapon with none AoE.

Telos Boltace had like 10-20 m auto-slash aoe, that is fast thanks to Maiming Strike + Berserker. Ack+Brunt is only and only naturally fast, and had other IPS and like none status chance, whilst having an average size.

You can have nice amount of slash from twin basolk finishers, not that you can stack a lot of crit from it because or natural rate.

[(PSN)Lei-Lei_23]

Reposting these comments I made prior in this thread and another thread to further emphasize that Telos Boltace's "Blast" and its cooldown is unnecessary. The Telos Boltace can be made better and not op than its clunky rework as it is now.

[ShadowSaber69]

Stop nerfing stuff and give us end game content to acully use stronger weapons  to continue to grow...these plebs complaining about weapons being too strong in a pve game is pretty sad..also if you complain about someone's load out on a public lobby then go organise your own groups or go solo because why should I suit my load out for you...I have my own way of enjoying the game and you have yours 

[Combustionsquirrel]

Disclaimer: I have never used the Telos Boltace

However from what I have seen the cooldown of 8 seconds (or whatever it is) seems extremely long, and it does seem to me that it would be a better idea for the cooldown to start after the second part of the ability because it is the same ability and it hasn't finished yet, so why start the cooldown timer? If ya ask me 4 seconds for a cooldown would be long, but manageable.

I feel for you guys disappointed in the new, unusable mechanics of a favorite weapon, but at least your new mechanic doesn't kill you half of the time instead of killing the enemy.

[(PSN)lhbuch]

3 hours ago, ShadowSaber69 said:

Stop nerfing stuff and give us end game content to acully use stronger weapons  to continue to grow...these plebs complaining about weapons being too strong in a pve game is pretty sad..also if you complain about someone's load out on a public lobby then go organise your own groups or go solo because why should I suit my load out for you...I have my own way of enjoying the game and you have yours 

Really nice, I agree 100%. Instead of just nerf everything to a point where everything gets boring, powerful weapons should have a use in extremely difficult content.

The game content doesnt need anything more powerful than it is. Using rivens to make things even more powerful are fun but not actually needed. We end up living in a buff and nerf cycle but the game content is the same. 

 

 

Edited April 6, 2017 by (PS4)lhbuch

[DreamsmithJane]

On 4/6/2017 at 6:44 AM, (PS4)HeadHuntingPanda said:

Exactly bro too many low skilled players who are jealous because they cant compete with the big dogs they want us to stoop down to there level and enjoy there scrub standards with them

This is coming from someone who complained about Tonkor being brought to self-damage parity with other launchers? Don't talk about "low skilled players" while you're advocating for making the game easier by removing the only drawback to otherwise mindless AoE weapons. Using pre-nerf Tonkor didn't make you a "big dog". It made you the scrub — not that there's anything necessarily wrong with being a scrub, since we're all here to play a game. Taking the easy way is natural for many people, but it definitely doesn't qualify you to talk down to people who didn't go straight for the cheese.

You: I need non-self-damage Tonkor for end game!

Them: That makes the game too easy!

You: You're just mad 'cause you're bad!

???

You can't...be saying that with a straight face. There's just no way. SMH

[(PSN)HeadHuntingPanda]

35 minutes ago, DreamsmithJane said:

This is coming from someone who complained about Tonkor being brought to self-damage parity with other launchers? Don't talk about "low skilled players" while you're advocating for making the game easier by removing the only drawback to otherwise mindless AoE weapons. Using pre-nerf Tonkor didn't make you a "big dog". It made you the scrub — not that there's anything necessarily wrong with being a scrub, since we're all here to play a game. Taking the easy way is natural for many people, but it definitely doesn't qualify you to talk down to people who didn't go straight for the cheese.

You: I need non-self-damage Tonkor for end game!

Them: That makes the game too easy!

You: You're just mad 'cause you're bad!

???

You can't...be saying that with a straight face. There's just no way. SMH

you arent paying attention are you? If you reach end game the way i do killing enemies with high lvl mobs you wont be asking for nerfs you would be asking for buffs ridicoulous enemy scaling at lvl 1000+ isnt anything to laugh at

Edited April 7, 2017 by (PS4)HeadHuntingPanda

[Spydominator]

I saw the self damage nerf coming eventually on the Tonkor too, despite being self damage entirely. In competitive games like TF2, Overwatch, Battlefield and so on, it's completely justified to have self damage there as you need some skill to use those weapons right, but in Warframe?

Why in Warframe though? Does the extra skill help you in any way against the AI? No matter how much skill you have in managing the self damage, you'll still be put in situations in which you'll 1 shot yourself due to the circumstances. Realistically it makes sense that you should be able to damage yourself, but to one shot kill yourself? I think you'd have a better chance to survive a blast like that in real life.

Things like  the extreme self damage completely take away the fun of launcher weapons and quite frankly it should either be removed completely or toned down to not be so punishing.

PS: Please spare me replies like GIT GUD as it provides no constructive feedback and it will only make you look immature.

[DreamsmithJane]

On 4/7/2017 at 1:51 PM, (PS4)HeadHuntingPanda said:

you arent paying attention are you? If you reach end game the way i do killing enemies with high lvl mobs you wont be asking for nerfs you would be asking for buffs ridicoulous enemy scaling at lvl 1000+ isnt anything to laugh at

Oh, I'm paying attention alright. I quickly learned two things about so-called "end game". One: that pre-nerf Tonkor levels of cheese are not needed to kill enemies of that level. Two: that there is literally no point at all to actually fighting those enemies, because there is no meaningful reward for doing so.

It's not "end game". It's an excessively time-sucking, arbitrary, boring almost-challenge you came up with because all actual game content is too easy for the cheesy weapons you insist are so necessary. The vast majority of players have no interest in spending multiple hours in a single survival or defense mission, outside of marathon streaming stunts mostly for the sake of charity. Why? Because it's not fun, and it's not rewarding, unless you use it as a pretext for a social event/fundraiser, and most people don't have multiple consecutive hours to spend on things that aren't fun or rewarding. If people actually wanted to challenge themselves in that way, they wouldn't need brainless AoE weapon spam to do it, as clearly demonstrated by aforementioned marathon charity streams where nobody uses a bloody Tonkor. It's not even a real challenge, if you're prepared. It just takes a long freaking time, and ain't nobody got time for that.

2 hours ago, Spydominator said:

I saw the self damage nerf coming eventually on the Tonkor too, despite being self damage entirely. In competitive games like TF2, Overwatch, Battlefield and so on, it's completely justified to have self damage there as you need some skill to use those weapons right, but in Warframe?

Why in Warframe though? Does the extra skill help you in any way against the AI? No matter how much skill you have in managing the self damage, you'll still be put in situations in which you'll 1 shot yourself due to the circumstances. Realistically it makes sense that you should be able to damage yourself, but to one shot kill yourself? I think you'd have a better chance to survive a blast like that in real life.

Things like  the extreme self damage completely take away the fun of launcher weapons and quite frankly it should either be removed completely or toned down to not be so punishing.

PS: Please spare me replies like GIT GUD as it provides no constructive feedback and it will only make you look immature.

You don't need to get good, because it's not hard to avoid blowing yourself up. If you're in a situation where blowing yourself up is inevitable, then don't use explosives. You're allowed more than one weapon in a mission. And no, you aren't likely to survive an explosion like that IRL. Something designed to kill within 5-6 meters will not magically spare its user. That's absurd. "But it doesn't one-shot enemies!" Then blame yourself for stretching endless game modes beyond all semblance of balance, or for expecting a glass cannon to stand up to the same kind of damage as the toughest of enemies. My fully modded Zarr will one-shot my Banshee, but not my Nezha with Warding Halo.

To all those saying the mindless/risk-free use of explosive weapons is "fun" and self-damage ruins that fun, I say: go play the Musou/Warriors series. There, you can casually ragdoll and kill huge crowds of mooks, because the games are designed for that. The presence of launchers that can do this without risk or effort in Warframe is hugely disruptive, because it's not designed for that, and if those launchers have no drawbacks, they invalidate every other weapon by becoming the new baseline of power around which all content must be balanced.

DE had a choice to make. They could remove self-damage from all weapons, thereby bringing other launchers to Tonkor's level and allowing all non-launcher weapons to languish in dis-use. They would then be effectively forced to rebalance all bosses, sorties, raids, et cetera around the weapons players would obviously use. You would have Explosionframe. Alternatively, they could make sure that otherwise objectively more effective AoE weapons have consistent drawbacks and risks to their use, such that they are not the obviously better choice in all situations, and give the hundreds of other weapons they've made a purpose under the existing design and balance level of all their content. They chose the latter, and it was the correct choice.

[LMG3864]

I've been enjoying the Paracyst quite a bit since the buff. I have a riven with +status chance, +crit damage and +damage, and so far it has proven to be one of the best armor-stripping weapon I have at the moment (maybe even the best overall). It managed to kill Kuva Napalms on a sortie 3 Assault mission with enhanced armor without much problems, so I'd say it's end-game viable vs Grineer (still testing vs Corpus).

One thing I'm quite curious about is that the alternate fire seems to alert enemies whenever I charge it, even while I'm using Banshee. It's as if once charged it screams in a frequency that no one but the enemy can hear. It makes the hook useless outside of combat, as I can't reel in enemies that are far away without alerting the whole tileset while at it, ruining any stealth potential for this mechanic. I'm quite sure it's a bug, so I hope it gets fixed. Aside of that it could maybe us about 10m more in range? It's already competing with the Harpak's instant hook, so it might as well properly shine in what makes it "special", not just be moderately better.

I also got to try out the Hind's alternate fire (I actually like the rifle, even if I can only take it up to sortie 1 reliably with a pretty decent riven) and... it's not really working out. I wouldn't mind if the alternate fire was notably distinct, like a "shotgun shot" similar to the Zarr's or a "charged sniper shot" like the Tenora, but as a regular battle rifle shot that seems intended to be spammed latron-style it just ends up feeling clunky. Maybe if it had an alternate mode like the Stradavar or the Zarr (or giving it a unique mechanic, like having the shot be silent instead of alarming) it could work out, but as it stands it doesn't feel natural, so I just ignore it.

EDIT: I got to try the new Harpak, and it can deal with sortie 1 with just a Catalyst installed with Argon Scope. I'm hoping I can get myself a riven with +crit chance to see how crazy can it become. Also, the harpoon seems to drop quite fast, and it doesn't always drag enemies unless you hit them in the chest or head. I'm not sure if that's a bug or intended

Edited April 13, 2017 by LMG3864

[(XBOX)Leo Dragon 1234]

Xgktdtftt

[Huanthus]

On 4/8/2017 at 2:06 PM, Spydominator said:

I saw the self damage nerf coming eventually on the Tonkor too, despite being self damage entirely. In competitive games like TF2, Overwatch, Battlefield and so on, it's completely justified to have self damage there as you need some skill to use those weapons right, but in Warframe?

Why in Warframe though? Does the extra skill help you in any way against the AI? No matter how much skill you have in managing the self damage, you'll still be put in situations in which you'll 1 shot yourself due to the circumstances. Realistically it makes sense that you should be able to damage yourself, but to one shot kill yourself? I think you'd have a better chance to survive a blast like that in real life.

Things like  the extreme self damage completely take away the fun of launcher weapons and quite frankly it should either be removed completely or toned down to not be so punishing.

PS: Please spare me replies like GIT GUD as it provides no constructive feedback and it will only make you look immature.

well regarding constructive feedback i dont mind the one-shot self-damage, it only adds another factor to think about when playing the game with certain type of weapons which i appreciate, since the self dmg on the tonkor was introduced on  an "balance" update the weapon has been "balanced" around other weapons on the same cathegory.

If you removed the self dmg from launchers youd have to remove the mods like hidden explosives which cause self dmg also so removing it is not that simple, i beleive

[(PSN)awesomelaw128]

On 3/24/2017 at 5:40 PM, Flirk2 said:

How about other bows then?

or

Why did you nerf these bows? of all the bows to nerf

[Flirk2]

13 hours ago, (PS4)awesomelaw128 said:

Why did you nerf these bows? of all the bows to nerf

That was fixed since.

And I hear it was a UI glitch rather than stat change. But all bows suddenly showing 20% crit chance gave me quite a scare. Then a hotfix that fixed Dread but nothing else didn't help matters.

But, again, since then it was fixed. And bows are where they were and should be.

[(PSN)JAYANDJAY0466]

I wanted to post this in regards to the recent Telos Boltace changes. Let me start off by saying, I don't hate the new effects on the weapon in fact they are extremely effective in many situations, plus the weapons ability to be a map wide crate opener is still there. The problem I, and pretty much everyone else has is the cool down timer and the effectiveness of the push and pull effects.

My proposal is that we make the "pull" and "push" effects on the slide attacks controllable by toggling between the two by pressing Mouse3 (PC) or the Right Thumbstick (Console). The timer itself is its own problem, possibly removing it entirely or making it an "effect on every 2nd or 3rd hit" type of mechanic. With my first option for the timer i think to totally balance out the removal of the cool down, the Boltace's radial effect range is reduced to make it much less annoying to others in the squad. Plus, due to the fix of Slash and Gas procs on melee there's no reason to handicap the Boltace's range and damage, especially since it's radial slash proc has been removed.

Edited April 19, 2017 by (PS4)JAYANDJAY0466

[Daughteru]

On 4/8/2017 at 3:39 PM, DreamsmithJane said:

It's not "end game". It's an excessively time-sucking, arbitrary, boring almost-challenge you came up with because all actual game content is too easy for the cheesy weapons you insist are so necessary. The vast majority of players have no interest in spending multiple hours in a single survival or defense mission, outside of marathon streaming stunts mostly for the sake of charity. Why? Because it's not fun, and it's not rewarding,

This is it guys. This is the type of player DE caters to. Only they get to decide what is fun and what isn't, and only they get to decide how the "vast majority" of players play for fun. Killing level 1000 enemies isn't fun for him, so you shouldn't be having fun either. And since it isn't fun, the weapons you build and use for level 1000 enemies are no fun either because they aren't needed. 

And as we've seen, DE really loves listening to these kinds of players so there is nothing much we can do. Just pray your next favorite weapon or frame doesn't get nerfed to the ground.

[DreamsmithJane]

1 hour ago, Daughteru said:

This is it guys. This is the type of player DE caters to. Only they get to decide what is fun and what isn't, and only they get to decide how the "vast majority" of players play for fun. Killing level 1000 enemies isn't fun for him, so you shouldn't be having fun either. And since it isn't fun, the weapons you build and use for level 1000 enemies are no fun either because they aren't needed. 

And as we've seen, DE really loves listening to these kinds of players so there is nothing much we can do. Just pray your next favorite weapon or frame doesn't get nerfed to the ground.

Utter nonsense. I didn't decide this on my own. Not remotely. Literally most players did, with the way they play. You apparently don't know, but DE does. Why do you think endless relic missions became almost an afterthought, as opposed to the key system that inherently rewarded large time investments without interruption? Most people don't have time for that. They acknowledge that some people want to play that way, and did their best to throw you a bone (even free relics), but they can't make the entire game about that. This is a video game, and people have lives to live outside of it. You want the content where most of the player base spends most of their time to be completely irrelevant because you like to spend multiple hours per mission wading through trash mobs until you finally find a challenge, and you have the nerve — no, the oblivious self-absorption to accuse me of dictating what other people are allowed to do for fun? LOL. You're so busy complaining about an imaginary enemy, and how DE caters to "him" at your expense, you never even considered that balancing 100 times or more over the challenge level of sorties and raids makes 99% of the game pointless, and the other 1% inaccessible to most players by virtue of time requirements alone. And I'm being generous with 1%. That's probably several orders of magnitude larger than the actual proportion.

I'm not at all bothered by killing level 1000 enemies. It's not even hard, if you know what you're doing. The problem is how long you have to wait before you even see them, when you're equipped to fight them, and every lesser enemy is a trivial waste of time. DE caters to people who don't have many hours at a time to spend waiting for "end game" to start, because that is the overwhelming majority of their player base, and people who don't have time are people who buy platinum. Those are their customers. You did notice that, didn't you? You spend time, or you spend money, and money is what keeps the lights on for DE. Who do you think you are, actually? People spend good money so that they don't have to spend hours of their free time waiting for something fun to happen. If that floats your boat, go ahead and do it, but don't demand that player power be balanced so far beyond actual content that you're the only one who's allowed to have fun. Reasonable weapon balance does not even slightly reduce your ability to stay in an endless mission until enemies become hard to kill. It just changes how long you have to wait before that happens...and depending on your approach, it might never happen at all, anyway.

[nameomnz]

I don't think endgame and endurance run is the same thing.

Endgame is like play until you get to the final content of the game.

Endurance run is the game of "Endurance" like how long can you stay in the mission or how far can you go above the endgame content.   

So saying that "You reach endgame by doing endurance run" is kinda **** to me.

I would love if they make lv1000 mission, So we encounter lv1000 at the start, That would be like newgame+

---

Feedback:

Glaxion:Still ammo burning simulator and low damage. I really think beam weapon in general should be rework though.

Ogris: Please make other elemental damage and status affect the Nightwatch naplam mod. So It will not end up being like another daikyu.

Tonkor: I do like it to have more arc trajectory or more flight speed. So It will be better at long range.

 

That all I have to say this time, Until I get to try more buff/neft weapons.

But DAMM I LOVE THE SH*T OUT OF MITTER

 

[Neurozen]

Nerfing to death all good weapons isnt balance 

[(XBOX)Miarkraim]

All explosive weapons could use a change to the self damage 1 hit self kill is overboard when a shot bounces wrong or a mob rushes you I had some cases today in testing where the explosion killed me but the mob survived, Tonkor's self damage was too low but now it's way to high I would like to see something where for shielded WF's it would remove the shield first shot kill second time if within a set time like 10-30 seconds similar with non shielded WF's but half life then dead would be a nice middle ground and allow for the random weird shots causing deaths that most people are having the issue with

[EquesDei]

Any chance of boosting Zhuge also, after Attica? 

[DreamsmithJane]

23 hours ago, EquesDei said:

Any chance of boosting Zhuge also, after Attica? 

Why? Attica was buffed because Zhuge made it irrelevant. Now, the comparison is better. Attica has better base damage, crit chance, and aimed accuracy. Zhuge has better fire rate and status chance. Both are very strong weapons.

[(PSN)Knightfyre]

On 3/24/2017 at 2:31 PM, [DE]Danielle said:

Ogris

The Ogris has gone through a visual Upgrade, and now it's time for a stat upgrade. To many, this was their first entry into Launcher weapons - are you willing to give it another look?

• The Flight Speed of the projectile has been increased.
• The Status Chance has been increased to 35%.
• The charge time to fire the Ogirs has been reduced.
• The direct Impact damage of the projectile has been decreased to 100.
• AoE damage has increased to 600.
• AoE range has increased to 6 meters.
• Mastery Rank requirement has increased to 8.  

 

We have nerfed 3 weapons (plus 1 variant)  that we feel disrupts the co-op setting and pace of gameplay for most groups: 

 

Tonkor

• The Tonkor's rocket jumping mechanic has long been obsolete since the introduction of bullet jumping, so the Tonkor now deals self-damage like all other launchers.
• The Tonkor Grenade trajectory line now appears on holding the fire button (Default Left Mouse), and grenade fires on release.
• The grenade needs to travel 6m before arming itself, it will bounce off yourself, other players and AI before then.
• The Maximum lifespan of grenade has dropped from 5 to 3 seconds - grenades are quicker to explode
• Grenades bounce lower and explode sooner, making them more likely to explode where they are shot.
• The Critical Chance has been reduced to 25%.
• The Accuracy of the Tonkor has been increased.  

Back when I first started playing Warframe (at the time the Cicero Crisis was going on), I was really excited when I finally managed to build and got to use the fabled Ogris rocket launcher.  I vividly remember that first time, charging up a shot as I aimed down the sights at an incoming band of Grineer troops that had just come through the doorway and were making a beeline toward the defense point on Lares (Mercury). With my sights lined up and on target, I released the trigger and launched my first rocket!  And then, at that very moment, everything that I'd heard and read about this weapon that sounded so wonderful was quickly soured as one of my teammates ran right in front of me.  The rocket exploded on contact, and while my teammate continued along their merry way, I suddenly found myself down for the count, bleeding out... the band of incoming Grineer remained unscathed.

After a few more unintentional incidents of self-annihilation, the Ogris was put on the shelf, where it has done a fabulous job of protecting that area of the shelf from dust.  There was nothing fun about being destroyed in a single blast from my own weapon.

Now, with this ridiculous nerf to the Tonkor, (and I never thought I'd say this) it will be even less desirable to use than the Ogris.  Because just like the Ogris, my teammates can cause the grenades to explode on contact when they run in front of me as I fire the weapon, instantly putting me down for the count.  But now the Tonkor goes a step farther, in that the grenades can randomly bounce around, off of walls or other miscellaneous things, and then still kill me.  At least Ogris missiles go in a straight line and blow up at the point of contact, and cannot change their trajectory and come back to haunt me.  And then--the cherry on top:  After all these changes you've made to increase the odds that using the Tonkor is going to kill me, you go and REDUCE the weapon's ability to take out the enemies I was intending to kill with it by reducing the critical chance!  Unbelievable.  So long, Tonkor.  You're useless to me now.
 
And speaking of useless, the Ogris still is.  There's a saying... something about lipstick and pigs... that seems appropriate here.  With all the changes you've made to the Ogris, you have failed to change the one key reason I refuse to use the thing. 

In a game with limited respawns, there is absolutely NOTHING FUN about killing yourself with your own weapon (and it's especially laughable when the same weapon can hardly put a dent in the enemies you're trying to kill with it).

[dan.io.wal]

On 3/24/2017 at 4:34 PM, Flirk2 said:

All bows got a nerf out of hell. How nice.

Attica got a buff but Zhuge got a nerf.

Telos Boltace are not worth using anymore.

''Balance'' well done, I guess.

What happened with bows and the Zhuge? The Zhuge is my favorite primary, I've invested two forma... 

[Flirk2]

6 hours ago, danthedapper said:

What happened with bows and the Zhuge? The Zhuge is my favorite primary, I've invested two forma... 

It was a long time ago. There was a glitch that showed all bows with 20% base crit chance. Zhuge was showing lowered stats as well. Then Dread stats got a fix, but nothing else. Later everything was fixed.

Now Zhuge is the status/crit auto-crossbow, same as before, while Attica is the damage/crit one, after a buff. Like it was supposed to be with that update.

Edited April 24, 2017 by Flirk2