[Update 20] Weapon Balance Pass Feedback Megathread

[Chewarette]

I'm 80% positive that it is buggy.

I used it right after the Update 20.0.0, it was surprisingly fine and consistent with the note : orbs making little damage, but stacked vortexes on detonation made huge damage. I really had fun using it.

Then, hotfix 20.0.1 arrived, and now it sucks. Orbs never merge, crit seems to apply depending on the number of active orbs, ridiculous damage and range (because no stack).

I really believe -and hope- that SSimulor 20.0.0 was the correct version and SSimulor 20.0.1 is the buggy one and not the other way round.

[Noey140]

how does it work now?the bubbles aren't exploding??!?!?!?

[(XBOX)TheMadCash]

3 minutes ago, Wolfdoggie said:

How do I destroy containers now? /pouts

Ignis is your bestfriend.

 

7 minutes ago, Ironlixivium said:

It's not the same weapon anymore. That's not hyperbole saying "it's trash" I really mean its not the same weapon. It red crits without crit mods, and doesn't even make vortexes....I'm not complaining, best nerf ever, but rly wtf? the damage numbers for combining are invisible to me (health bar gets hit slightly, but no numbers, in solo) and the explosion damage crits more the more orbs you shot first......I changed my build to crit damage only just because of this.

So technically. It doesnt dobthe vortex and it red crits on explosions despite not having great crit chance? Not sure how I feel. What about the initial dmg when you stacking? How is it after the change and how is the dmg overall?

[Ironlixivium]

3 minutes ago, Noey140 said:

how does it work now?the bubbles aren't exploding??!?!?!?

click alt fire....

[S0V3REiGN]

4 minutes ago, Noey140 said:

how does it work now?the bubbles aren't exploding??!?!?!?

You have to manually detonate them with the 2ndary fire button (whatever you have that bind it to). This is where the damage is done.

 

edit: Tenno'ed

Edited March 27, 2017 by S0V3REiGN

[Ironlixivium]

7 minutes ago, Chewarette said:

I'm 80% positive that it is buggy.

I used it right after the Update 20.0.0, it was surprisingly fine and consistent with the note : orbs making little damage, but stacked vortexes on detonation made huge damage. I really had fun using it.

Then, hotfix 20.0.1 arrived, and now it sucks. Orbs never merge, crit seems to apply depending on the number of active orbs, ridiculous damage and range (because no stack).

I really believe -and hope- that SSimulor 20.0.0 was the correct version and SSimulor 20.0.1 is the buggy one and not the other way round.

tbh I like this one more though lol, its interesting.

[Noey140]

6 minutes ago, Ironlixivium said:

click alt fire....

 

5 minutes ago, S0V3REiGN said:

You have to manually detonate them with the 2ndary fire button (whatever you have that bind it to). This is where the damage is done.

Thanks, i was already worried it worked on direct impact only and i had to aim now...

[Ironlixivium]

Just now, Noey140 said:

 

Thanks, i was already worried it worked on direct impact only and i had to aim now...

pff nah dude what is this sniper elite? aiming is for the weak and poor.

[Huanthus]

On 24/3/2017 at 6:02 PM, (PS4)Lei-Lei_23 said:

Body Count doesn't drop in Lua Spy, it's exclusive to the Shadow Debt event.

Ive always felt that drifting contact was better than body count and easily farmable, havent tested the telos but seems a more interesting weapon now 

 

Dunno if its a bug  but the simulor stacks dont do damage when combining but the alt fire detonation oh boy red crits everywhere stripping of armor high armored units, if this is intended it paces down the gameplay w/ the simulor since you gotta stack em up to do a lot more, also telos vortex+ synoid simulor seem a bit interesting right now

[Ironlixivium]

I'll try not to be whiny, I don't understand why the crit reduction was needed on the tonkor. I get blowing myself up, but I'd like to at least have a good weapon to do it with. IMHO other launchers should be buffed to tonkor level, with tonkor unnerfed, not the other way around.

Most launchers suck, that's why barely anyone uses them. Whats the point in making them all suck together, when they could all be great together.

[yingji]

2 minutes ago, Ironlixivium said:

I'll try not to be whiny, I don't understand why the crit reduction was needed on the tonkor. I get blowing myself up, but I'd like to at least have a good weapon to do it with. IMHO other launchers should be buffed to tonkor level, with tonkor unnerfed, not the other way around.

Most launchers suck, that's why barely anyone uses them. Whats the point in making them all suck together, when they could all be great together.

This tenno gets it.

Launchers are all no good unless you're wukong/rhino. That's not player skill that's normal everyday picking a suitable frame. It's not a matter of 'git gud' it's a matter of 'select tank' which makes launchers even less popular since we don't all want to play tanks all the time.

In other threads I suggest making a Blast proc on user the punishment for landing a launcher shot too close to yourself, not instakill self damage.

A Blast proc will get you killed at mid-high/high levels real easy, and lose you your interception point, and make you miss a jump, miss a pickup, etc., it's a fatal punishment at the wrong moment. But it's not a surefire dumb *boom dead* which is the exact opposite of fun gaming. A Blast proc is a very big risk especially at mid-high/high enemy level but it punishes lower level mission players less, where launcher damage is not a advantage anyway since any decent gun will kill lower level enemies.

That's a proposal someone might look at, or not, anyway.

[Ironlixivium]

I think I'll be visiting this thread often lul About the mutalist quanta though: DE, IT'S REALLY BAD, I THINK YOU ACCIDENTALLY NERFED IT.

I'm serious. the combining orbs tend to fly back toward you or in a weird direction and ends up sitting in an awkward spot that renders it useless. I had about one time when the ball was in a usable spot and it was great, but please fix this. especially if you spam alt fire, it ends up behind you. ALSO I would like if the cool expanding box effect was returned, as is its just a ball that stays a ball with a weird glitchy looking texture.

[yingji]

The general theme of nerfing/crippling AoE weapons is I think misguided. Stick with me here.

Warframe doesn't restrict certain weapons to certain classes. Most games do. Warframe doesnt.

What this means is, you will always see certain combinations (Mirage+Simulor, Mirage+Tonkor) that are off the scale effective.

If you're a caster type frame with low/no damage ability wtf gun are you supposed to use to wipe out zillions of mobs now? Warframe is a hoarde mode game.

- Simulor? Sorry son, we pretty much deleted it (unless you are Mirage go figure :-/)
- Tonkor? Sorry son, we pretty much made it as terrible as the other launchers
- Other launchers? Sorry son see above, they will instakill you unless you use a handful of tanks

Hmm oooook  ... so we're supposed to all ditch low damage support/caster frames and play Rhino with Zarr instead?

Better solution? Warframe accepts itself as an AoE-friendly mass mob wreckage game, since it has always been one, and has risen to be very popular because of this. Make a beautiful array of excellent AoE weapons that players love and celebrate the nature of hoarde mode games and be happy Warframe is (kinda was, bring back the AoE weapons) one of the very best.

Nuking the holy underpants off screenfuls of mobs is exactly the DNA of hoarde mode games like Warframe. Weapons that do this are good and we need more of them.

 

[Huanthus]

2 hours ago, yingji said:

The general theme of nerfing/crippling AoE weapons is I think misguided. Stick with me here.

Warframe doesn't restrict certain weapons to certain classes. Most games do. Warframe doesnt.

What this means is, you will always see certain combinations (Mirage+Simulor, Mirage+Tonkor) that are off the scale effective.

If you're a caster type frame with low/no damage ability wtf gun are you supposed to use to wipe out zillions of mobs now? Warframe is a hoarde mode game.

- Simulor? Sorry son, we pretty much deleted it (unless you are Mirage go figure :-/)
- Tonkor? Sorry son, we pretty much made it as terrible as the other launchers
- Other launchers? Sorry son see above, they will instakill you unless you use a handful of tanks

Hmm oooook  ... so we're supposed to all ditch low damage support/caster frames and play Rhino with Zarr instead?

Better solution? Warframe accepts itself as an AoE-friendly mass mob wreckage game, since it has always been one, and has risen to be very popular because of this. Make a beautiful array of excellent AoE weapons that players love and celebrate the nature of hoarde mode games and be happy Warframe is (kinda was, bring back the AoE weapons) one of the very best.

Nuking the holy underpants off screenfuls of mobs is exactly the DNA of hoarde mode games like Warframe. Weapons that do this are good and we need more of them.

 

Imo its logical to get instakilled with launcher weapons the one that is the most secure is the penta secura with tether grenades is a decent weapon has good cc & dmg and you can set it up i actually prefer it than the tonkor or the zarr, i for one welcome the self dmg on the tonkor  still would love to get the old crit back but i can live without that 10%

Regarding clearing hordes of enemies there is the supra with punchthrough or the ignis wraith with 153% stat persec

(Some food for thought, imagine the simulor mini blackholes self damaging u )

 

Edited March 27, 2017 by Huanthus

[AlkaiserX]

DE Nerfs something that made another player stronger than you->  YESSS, GOOD ONE DE!

DE Nerfs your favorite weapon/frame that made you stronger than another player-> FU** I'm done with this game!

It's simple, Players have been playing Warframe (A Predominant coop game) like it was a Competitive game. People like to look at mission results and see how they kill more enemies, how they do more damage or received less damage. The problem is the community, who are always wanting to (unfortunately) measure who has the biggest di**.

Next nerf from DE will be Tigris Prime and his family. Maybe Banshee's Sound Quake, Maybe Ember's World on Fire. People must stop asking for nerfs and DE must be more rational. Warframe has huge possibilities and infinite combinations using Frames + Weapons, because of this, It's no use trying to stop players from creating powerful and OP combinations, they're inevitable. 

 

Like any other game, we have weak and strong weapons and it is normal that with the passage of time, the weakest weapons are forgotten by the veteran players... because they are weak! But they can be useful for players who are starting or in the middle of the game. Sometimes I think DE wants to create a kind of socialism between the weapons of the game.

My thoughts about the changes is: I loved the buffs of all cited weapons. But the nerfs was over too harshy for all the weapons, mostly Telos Boltace and Synoid Simulor. These weapons are not common weapons, these are syndicate weapons. You could change the mechanics (trading sindicate weapons freely is kinda strange... farming two or more syndicates at the same time too, maybe), nerf it lightly if really need it. But Telos Boltace is now more like Trash Boltace, Synoid Simulor is now a common weapon.

About Tonkor, I didnt like the new mechanics of firing, old one was better. The reduction of 3 seconds to explode was good. I think only one nerf change would be fair, crit reduction OR self damage. Tonkor doesn't have any benefit over Zarr, for example.

What I know is: if the Nerf keep like this, we'll be doing sorties with a MK1-Braton in one or two years, because "Oh, nobody uses mk1-braton, lets buff it and nerf another weapons!". So, players, please stop begging for a nerf on a weapon that made another player kill more than you, because DE will transform what should be something powerful into trash.... Even the weapon/frame you are "abusing" right now.

And De, be more rational, Socialism between weapons and frames does not exist. We WILL have strong weapons, we WILL have weak weapons, we WILL have powerful and OP combinations, like it or not. 

And sorry about my English. Cheers.

[DreamsmithJane]

3 hours ago, yingji said:

Launchers are all no good unless you're wukong/rhino. That's not player skill that's normal everyday picking a suitable frame. It's not a matter of 'git gud' it's a matter of 'select tank' which makes launchers even less popular since we don't all want to play tanks all the time.

I use Zarr and Javlok. With Banshee. No, it's not a matter of 'git gud', because it's not actually that hard. It's a matter of "stop hitting yourself". It's a matter of people not understanding or refusing to accept that there is a "right way" to use explosives, and it largely does not involve being tanky enough to ignore their risks. If you want to face-check enemies, use a shotgun or melee weapon. People rushing up and shooting enemies point-blank with Tonkor was always stupid, and I'm glad it's gone.

[(PSN)Lei-Lei_23]

6 hours ago, (Xbox One)Cash201293 said:

Ignis is your bestfriend.

It's not even the weekend and I'm expected to be a flamer while Syndicate Medallion hunting. ( '3')

It felt more righteous to be Jack the Ripper with the Telos Boltace and slicing open all of the containers in a tileset, tbqh. But no, we have to turn the special effect on these tonfas into a Kirby vacuum that dispenses whatever it vacuumed with each follow-up press.

Edited March 27, 2017 by (PS4)Lei-Lei_23

[(PSN)Lei-Lei_23]

1 hour ago, Huanthus said:

Imo its logical to get instakilled with launcher weapons the one that is the most secure is the penta secura with tether grenades is a decent weapon has good cc & dmg and you can set it up

BullS#&$. Tether Grenades deals self damage now. It's now a glorified Adhesive Blast that lassos enemies like 

and if you're not careful (like playing on a water tileset) your nades will explode on your face.

Just stating the fact that the Secura Penta's Tether Grenades do not help to make it more secure than the other launchers, it's still just as dangerous when it comes to self-damage like the other launchers with the convenience of detonation by use of alt-fire.

[pfoo]

 

1 hour ago, AlkaiserX said:

DE Nerfs something that made another player stronger than you->  YESSS, GOOD ONE DE!

DE Nerfs your favorite weapon/frame that made you stronger than another player-> FU** I'm done with this game!

It's simple, Players have been playing Warframe (A Predominant coop game) like it was a Competitive game. People like to look at mission results and see how they kill more enemies, how they do more damage or received less damage. The problem is the community, who are always wanting to (unfortunately) measure who has the biggest di**.

Next nerf from DE will be Tigris Prime and his family. Maybe Banshee's Sound Quake, Maybe Ember's World on Fire. People must stop asking for nerfs and DE must be more rational. Warframe has huge possibilities and infinite combinations using Frames + Weapons, because of this, It's no use trying to stop players from creating powerful and OP combinations, they're inevitable. 

 

Like any other game, we have weak and strong weapons and it is normal that with the passage of time, the weakest weapons are forgotten by the veteran players... because they are weak! But they can be useful for players who are starting or in the middle of the game. Sometimes I think DE wants to create a kind of socialism between the weapons of the game.

Totally seconding you, all this call for nerfs are mainly an ego issue. Some feels castrated when they don't have the best damage done / total kill on the team. This is also why some support frames were -or sill are- under-used.

Compare the situation with others level-based games, let's say word of warcraft. Go with a level 100 character in a level 10 area, you'll go on a mass murder, killing everything in sight with no effort. Is your character overpowered or cheated and needs a nerf ? I don't think so. But here we are, seeing people crying for a nerf because they see someone with a weapon designed for killing level 100+ enemies farming in easy low level missions. Of course they are killing everything, they use nuclear missile in the stone age !

DE has its responsibility in this with their bad scalling in term of rewards. Farming  the same low level mission is often more rewardable than doing high level and more challenging missions. Even if XP drop is better with high level enemies, endo, loots and credits are scalling very badly.

It's normal to have endgame powerfull weapons ... because at some point, you need this powerfull weapons in order to kill (think of endless, please, and consider endless is not necessarily ending at wave 20). I'd prefer to have more powerfull weapons than less. The issue is that players are using those endgame weapons in low level area, because it is allowing them to farm even more easily, and they see no point in doing more challenging missions.

 

Best recent example is credits drop. DE nerfed it at some point. Players started using an endgame weapon, the secura lecta, because they needed lots of credits. Nerf. Now they are farming dark sectors defense, doing only waves 1-5. I already saw people complaining about this. Let's be clear : a nerf is incoming for this too. I'm laughing when I see alerts rewarding a few thousands credits. I'm even laughing with sorties credits rewards (mainly because you cannot farm sorties).

As far as I can tell, DE is acting brain-dead, patching the "current issue" without trying to understand why player are doing what they are doing. And yes, this is how you end up killing a game.

[Huanthus]

26 minutes ago, (PS4)Lei-Lei_23 said:

BullS#&$. Tether Grenades deals self damage now. It's now a glorified Adhesive Blast that lassos enemies like 

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

and if you're not careful (like playing on a water tileset) your nades will explode on your face.

Just stating the fact that the Secura Penta's Tether Grenades do not help to make it more secure than the other launchers, it's still just as dangerous when it comes to self-damage like the other launchers with the convenience of detonation by use of alt-fire.

Even if it deals self damage (as it should) you have most control over when they will explode, the thing  is that you need to be careful handling explosives, else go pick up your pieces elsewhere :D

[MewmewGirl]

Wow, so it turns out the complete ruination of the Simulor / Synoid Simulor was a bug and not intentional.  It's now fixed and actually is only nerfed, it's not the complete change to a detonator that it looked like.  It's still actually the same unique weapon in a bit of a nerfed state.

 

Thank goodness for that being a bug.  I was *really* worried about the choices the Dev team was making by changing it as much as it seemed it had changed.  I mean it just didn't seem reasonable at all to me.

 

I can't help but notice this though - a lot of people defended the changes done to the Simulor.  They defended it not knowing it was a bug either, they thought the weapon was completely destroyed like the version we were using was, and they were defending it.  Those people felt this was somehow reasonable (and consider how much work, how many hours put in it takes to get the Synoid version).  I shake my head in disbelief at them defending it, and thank the Void that it was really a bug that was causing the weapon to change so very much.

 

I'll have to play with it some more and do updated feedback now.  I guess the Devs know most of our feedback on the Simulors before the hotfix is based on the bugged version and so it's mostly irrelevant because of that (not all, some people did have different comments about it due to what the patch notes said but most of it was based on actually playing with the bugged version and not things from the patch notes).

[RzdAkira]

I really love these weapon balance pass patch. I finally can use my Panthera and Miter in Sorties. I'm hopeful to see more of these in the future :)

The new Synoid/Simulor are designed to deal damage on manual detonation and not the merge as it used to. I really like this new refreshing view on the weapon. There is however one thing about the Synoid/Simulor that kind of contradict with itself. The manual detonation explosion has a range of 1-8m, however during orb stacking event, enemies are being knocked back sometimes outside of the explosion range rendering the manual detonation to hit nothing.  In the beginning of the week, where the orbs failed to merge, I find the weapon a lot of fun, placing strategic mines and detonating them with enemies in range. However, when the merge mechanic are reintroduced, the gun will mostly deal damage during the merge which is not the optimal way.

[yingji]

Yah Synoid/Simulor tested again, results: will struggle at mid-high levels now, as for 'high level enemy viable' tier, no way simply forget it, tested on all factions, various builds for status and crit, very poor results. Crit% clearly less than stated as non-merged never seems to crit at all, orbs stagger enemies outside the weapon's own AoE range, and remember un-merged orbs have effectively zero AoE range now anyway. Merge damage essentially nil as enemies are staggered away, not pulled in. It's a vortex in name only, visually only, in action just a pretty spinning picture. Merge explosion base damage is now vastly lower than pre-U20 on top of all this. Is also possible punch thru from AoE has been removed too, not sure but hardly matters in this crippled state and that's where I stopped tested. Enough.

This weapon is now maybe MR6-ish at best. Hilariously over-nerfed. However ...

As said elsewhere, but for clarity, a simple proposal, since I'm not blind to problems this gun evidenced to a subset of vociferous players and/or DE folk whatever their agenda:

- restore Synoid/Simulor to where it was pre-U20 but ...
- put on-screen (visible to Synoid/Simulor player only) simple target circles or other indicators for orbs to be fired at in order for merge to occur

There you go. Introduce some targeting skill requirement akin to headshots in order to get the full performance from Synoid/Simulor. No more brainless AFK abuse, no more easy run-and-clear Mirage (although Mirage will still run-and-clear with any weapon like Some Prime/Boltor/Braton because that's how Mirage is designed to work so do try to keep Mirage considerations separate because they are indeed completely separate and if Mirage is a cited reason for nerfs then every other weapon in the game will end up crippled too).

Fix up Simulor but make player work a bit to get the benefit from it. Cheers.

[Rage_Inducer]

Ogris needs some more love, even post nerf the tonkor just does more. We have so many ways to apply status, be it single target, large area, one at a time or way too many for anything to be left standing at a time and we can do all that at zero risk of blowing ourselves up. We have a TON of ways to inflict any status we want with any weapon slot.

What we don't have is any alternative to the Tonkor in terms of critical explosives. The Ogris needs a crit buff to be on par with the current Tonkor. My idea is to have it do slightly less damage than the Tonkor but make up for it with precision and blast radius. Maybe ditching the charge time completely and giving it the same ammo pool and trigger as the Tonkor. Both would have their perks and quirks and the choice between the two would be down to prefference buch like the way many of the dual swords are now.

[(PSN)Tenudin]

Well there goes using Tonkor... Thanks DE...