Why there are so many weapons better at crit than snipers?

[Rekkou]

This isn't funny anymore, recent weapons, Ferrox, Euphona Prime, Tenora, Pendero none of them are sniper rifles, yet they all have better crit stats than Snipers. Why these non sniper can easily get 30% crit chance, yet almost every snipers can't break the 25% crit chance? . Even with Argon Scope you can't even reach 100% crit chance.

And please don't use "snipers have damage multiplier combo and scope damage bonus" as excuse, because the real flaw in snipers have always been their damage reliability. If Snipers have to be punishing then put some body multiplier, don't leave it to the rolling dice that decided that my well placed, well timed headshot deserves to be rewarded with the lowest possible damage.

Right now, if you are using the regular "obligatory mods" there are 5 levels of damage on weapons per shot

1 normal

2 normals

1 critical

1 normal + 1 critical

2 criticals

The difference between 1 normal headshot and 2 criticals headshot can reach 17.6x (4x4 crit damage x 2 crit headshot multiplier x 2 multishot). At high level that might as well count as miss or dud rounds. And at higher level, even Rubico or Vectis prime needs 4 criticals headshots to kill heavies with matching damage weakness. That's how bad it is if you can't get 100% crit chance.

[ashrah]

sniper really need big changes... they should be highest  hitting dmg wepons.. zoom lvl reduction with option x2.x4   that why u see what happening around u...crit chance..also i was notice very wierd sniper accuracy..  vectis prime sometimes miss perfectly aimed headshots..

[Casardis]

Personally I never really understood the combo meter part. Shouldn't snipers be focused on hitting vitals and making sure they die in the least shots possible? Why am I forced to do "combos" just to get a decent damage upgrade, and still be outperformed by so many other weapons?

[loner-hero]

The only time I see people using snipers when there is sorties that has condition of snipers only and recently I built and optimized Rubico (rip me if Rubico Prime).

After playing around with snipers for a while, I feel that they are pretty much outclassed at the moment and in state of needing rework much like how shotgun was total suffering before it's rework. I might be wrong though.

So maybe we will be able to see them getting buffed at Damage 3.0 ??

[Rekkou]

8 minutes ago, Casardis said:

Personally I never really understood the combo meter part. Shouldn't snipers be focused on hitting vitals and making sure they die in the least shots possible? Why am I forced to do "combos" just to get a decent damage upgrade, and still be outperformed by so many other weapons?

Indeed, i never bother with it because it's counter intuitive with how sniper works. How the combo works is basically "hit as many things as you can as fast as you can". While how sniper works is "take your time to do as much damage as possible with the least possible shots"

 

12 minutes ago, loner-hero said:

The only time I see people using snipers when there is sorties that has condition of snipers only and recently I built and optimized Rubico (rip me if Rubico Prime).

After playing around with snipers for a while, I feel that they are pretty much outclassed at the moment and in state of needing rework much like how shotgun was total suffering before it's rework. I might be wrong though.

So maybe we will be able to see them getting buffed at Damage 3.0 ??

I'm very skeptic, Snipers already got 1 balance pass and full "rework" , yet they do everything except the easiest most obvious logical way to improve snipers. It's probably more optimistic to expect DE to nerf every non-sniper weapons to be as bad as snipers rather than making snipers good.

[TotallyLagging]

Because consistency was never DE's forte.

 

I ranted about this (and sniper mechanics in general) a long time ago. We can only hope they start looking at snipers again with the recent weapon changes.

[Dark_Chroma_Prime]

play lanka with full zoomed mod an you get your red crit sniper

[Rekkou]

Just now, Dark_Roxas said:

play lanka with full zoomed mod an you get your red crit sniper

And? There are like 7 other sniper rifles suffering the problem.

[painterman]

At this point i lost almost all hope, it still may be posible to get a second rebalance pass, but dont count on it, the same as with other things that should have changed a long ago but didnt(hema cost...).

In the current state, the only sniper worth using in my opinion is the lanka because the bonus crit chance with zoom, and not the +10-25% extra dmg on scope of other snipers that dont need it in the first place. Its been years asking for weakpoints, a mod to get x-ray scope similar to the scaner and a mod to do aoe in headshot, and we got in exchange the combo counter, which is okay but again: the snipers have already enough dmg for sub lv100 content, and if you are going higher you are using a team with 4xCP or toxin dmg(armor scaling should also be adresed but thats another discussion) so yea, in the beggining we dindt need the conbo counter.

And the last nail in the coffin is that all the last weapons released that rely on crit chance have all more crit chance that almost all snipers(not counting lanka but its more like a bown than a sniper). Even the buffed buzzlok its better than almost all snipers, while it donst have the crazy base damage, it has a bonus crit chance to marked enemys and it donst strugle aganist groups. Whould say something about the tenora but still in research, but it seems way better than any sniper and the stradavar.

Now, my fix would be to raise the crit chance of all snipers to 25-40% depending on "tier"(ej: the snipetron and the vulkar stay at 25% and the vectis prime gets a bump to 35-40%) OR increase the base damage of all snipers by their moded crit damage(thats if the rubico has 200 base dmg and 3x crit multiplier, the final base dmg would be 200*7,5 = 1500). Other changes welcome are armor ignoring tru scope/mod, aoe damage on headshots(mod), x-ray scope(mod), aplified damage on weakpoints(instead of combo counter or a mod). The most important is the first one, dmg consistency is the things that makes snipers not worth and i will be happy with it, but yea, im not counting on it #sadlife.

[(PSN)MrNishi]

8 hours ago, Rekkou said:

And? There are like 7 other sniper rifles suffering the problem.

Yes a bunch of inferior and lower MR Snipers...Then there is the Lanka which has Red Crits with just point strike, albeit Max Zoom.

Icing on the cake is the lenghten combo timer, on arguably the best Sniper.

[Rekkou]

5 hours ago, (PS4)MrNishi said:

Yes a bunch of inferior and lower MR Snipers...Then there is the Lanka which has Red Crits with just point strike, albeit Max Zoom.

Icing on the cake is the lenghten combo timer, on arguably the best Sniper.

Plenty of other stats to go around, damage, fire rate, magazine capacity, reload time, etc. But unreliable damage is unjustified for any Snipers even on the snipetron or Vulkar.

[(PSN)MrNishi]

4 minutes ago, Rekkou said:

Plenty of other stats to go around, damage, fire rate, magazine capacity, reload time, etc. But unreliable damage is unjustified for any Snipers even on the snipetron or Vulkar.

I strongly agree with you.

I am awaiting DE to make another Sniper balance pass.

They could have at the very least given the Sniper weapon class an innate 4x Headshot multiplier instead of the usual 2x. (This would make it feel closer to other Snipers in other games, while not just making Snipers straight power-creep Bows, in regards to body shots)

Like how Venka Primes have .75x Combo Multiplier, rather than .5x Multiplier.(When DE removed Stamina they should have implemented Melee Weapon Class Combo Multiplier variances to help balance short Range/reach weapons with the larger Multi-shot)

[-N7-Leonhart]

20 hours ago, Casardis said:

Personally I never really understood the combo meter part. Shouldn't snipers be focused on hitting vitals and making sure they die in the least shots possible? Why am I forced to do "combos" just to get a decent damage upgrade, and still be outperformed by so many other weapons?

Not like the combo counter is there for you to get 'decent' damage. The damage is good from the start, the combo is there to reward you for never missing your target, like any respectable sniper would do.

Edited March 27, 2017 by -N7-Leonhart

[Rekkou]

1 hour ago, -N7-Leonhart said:

Not like the combo counter is there for you to get 'decent' damage. The damage is good from the start, the combo is there to reward you for never missing your target, like any respectable sniper would do.

Except that the "not miss" is tied to "as many & as fast", not to weakspot, range or target priority. The current combo was meant for gunslinger, not sniper.

[Fallen_Echo]

Whenever someone tells me X game has sniper rifles i imagine weapons with long reload, small ammo pool, high damage (second highest, launchers deal the highest damage traditionally) and high critical chance along with great accuracy.

 

In warframe snipers deal medicore damage, have medicore crit chance, inaccurate with hipshot, inaccurate with aimed shot (sway), have long reload and small ammo pool.

 

The combo counter is a joke, it would fit assault rifles more than snipers. It was added because snipers in general are weak.

[TaylorsContraction]

Firstly sniper rifles do a ton of damage, and are effective of you're good with them.

Having said that,  I agree that the sniper "rework "was a failure.  In fact it was so bad I rage quit for a year because they took my favorite weapons and made them worse with the addition of hip fire accuracy nerfs.  I'm still about 10% less accurate than I used to be which is significant for slow rof weapons.

I did not think the way to improve snipers was to boost  crit originally and I still stand by that view.  We have riven  mods that can easily boost snipers to 100% crit on top of that.  There is another thread with good sniper feedback,  but tldr

Snipers should do finisher damage when hitting vitals or on headshot.

Remove timer from combo and make it on miss.  Having a 2x combo is pretty strong but it expires too fast.

Remove hip fire accuracy nerf

 

Add a new status effect for snipers ie hemorrhaging,  bleed  dot for full damage dealt etc...

Lastly intrinsic punch through.

Edited March 27, 2017 by TaylorsContraction

[Rekkou]

2 hours ago, TaylorsContraction said:

-snip-

Being good with snipers, won't change how RNG works, no matter how much damage you can deal there's always a chance you do less, just because RNG said so. That's the problem with snipers. 

If it's up to me, i will completely remove crit chance and replace it with headshot multiplier. But that's very unlikely, so the closest i can get is at least getting 100% crit chance.

And Rivens are far from the answer, especially if the problem is suffered by the whole type of weapon. People who like sniping would want to use all kinds of sniper. Relying on getting rivens for each kind just to make them works is not the answer.

[TaylorsContraction]

10 minutes ago, Rekkou said:

Being good with snipers, won't change how RNG works, no matter how much damage you can deal there's always a chance you do less, just because RNG said so. That's the problem with snipers. 

If it's up to me, i will completely remove crit chance and replace it with headshot multiplier. But that's very unlikely, so the closest i can get is at least getting 100% crit chance.

And Rivens are far from the answer, especially if the problem is suffered by the whole type of weapon. People who like sniping would want to use all kinds of sniper. Relying on getting rivens for each kind just to make them works is not the answer.

I agree that bonus effects on hitting vitals like headshots would be nice for snipers, which is why I mentioned special status effects unique to sniping rifles. The reason why I use the term vitals is because certain enemies do not have heads or hitboxes that are considered headshots, ospreys for example. I don't want snipers to have a hard time dealing with such enemies necessarily.

As to what vitals are, well for anything that can be headshot, it should be its main vital. For things that don't have headshots, they should have a headshot hitbox added then.

Effects on vital shots can be +100% crit chance on hit. That means automatically sniping rifles will crit on a vital hit, and are likely to red crit as well rewarding precision. As already mentioned, doing finisher damage, or adding special status effects (that translate to damage or aoe damage) are good too.

[(PSN)LeonidasxGGG]

I blame level design for flaw of snipers.

There is very little "open world" so to speak, so why take a long range weapon if all levels are more like dungeons?

Ence, snipers don't get used and so don't get rework for better purposes.

[viperfang4]

I posted an in depth possible rework to snipers here: 

It goes over flaws and fixes to the problems they have and is a summary of a conversation I had with quite a few people.

 

[painterman]

I just get the tenora and posted a topic of how good it is and here i want to elaborate a bit more in one aspect: the tenora is the best sniper rifle in the game, even when its not a sniper at its core and even beats other sniper-like weapons like the latron.

Just look at it secondary fire, it has more critical chance that all of the snipers( not counting lanka with zoom), the same critical damage as the rubico( the only sniper with more than a 2x multiplier), it has more or less the same firerate acounting for charge time, donst have penalty on hipfire accuracy and on top of that has a mode to deal with crowds with no problem.This puts is secondary firemode in direct damage numbers of the first shot of every sniper and not counting combo, and almost all snipers have enough damage to kill 99% of enemys in the game with that first shot no problem. This is a problem not of the tenora( it should not be nerfed) but of the snipers as a class, were only the Lanka with its bonus crit chance on zoom can come close to the reliable damage the Tenora has in its secondary fire, so yea, snipers need another rework.

[Rekkou]

On 2017/3/28 at 5:37 PM, (PS4)leonidasx666 said:

I blame level design for flaw of snipers.

There is very little "open world" so to speak, so why take a long range weapon if all levels are more like dungeons?

Ence, snipers don't get used and so don't get rework for better purposes.

I keep hearing this, but the truth is plenty tilesets have big open room for sniping, even narrow corridor makes a good camping spot, because enemies just line up practically begging to be headshoted all at once. And back then Sniper is also accurate when hip-fired, so people can use it point blank just fine. Now sniper have long range scope, but negated by the scope sway anyway so they're actually less effective at long range while other weapons are also accurate but have no sway at all. They might need more than one shot, but so does snipers because their damage is unreliable. While Lanka, the only one that can deal 100% crit chance has both scope sway and projectile speed that makes long range sniping difficult.

So the problem is not that there are no place to use sniper. The problem is, even at its place sniper is outclassed by so many weapons.

[Rekkou]

14 hours ago, viperfang4 said:

-snip-

To be honest, i never like the idea of x-ray scope, It's practically cheating in PvP. But on PvE where more than 20 enemies can spawn and enemies are actually programmed to spawn out of thin air on nearest rooms you can't see, it can over crowds your screen and some times it can even draw your focus from enemies that are actually in the open.

But you do what you can over there. I will focus my point on the simplest effortless thing DE can do to increase the chance of it happening. Buffing the crit chance to be at least 30%

[NinjaZeku]

How about a Sniper-only alternative to Point Strike?

Maybe a Corrupted Mod with a little bit of ... dunno, -Damage or whatever,
it sets your crit chance to an unchangeable 100%, no more, no less.

You could still get red crits with good ol' Point Strike and Lanka / Argon Scope / Kavat boosts / whatnot
so it'd not be entirely mandatory, "just" a very comfortable method of ensuring crits.

[(PSN)LeonidasxGGG]

2 hours ago, Rekkou said:

So the problem is not that there are no place to use sniper. The problem is, even at its place sniper is outclassed by so many weapons.

Agreed. Also, the enemies all have a tendency to rush towards you so whatever distance you have to use snipers is quickly changed to using another weapon (or a secondary) that just blow everything up close. So, even in narrow corridors or other places that the enemy might be far, you end up not using snipers but rather some other weapon.