The Grineer and Corpus Need Better AI/Tactics

[YouHaveShamedYoFamory]

So as players get better gear and better mods enemies become easier and easier to kill. That's not necessarily a bad thing but that gets boring after doing it so much.

I feel the enemies need to adapt to our power levels  at higher levels, not just with higher hp and damage, but with tactics. The enemies should be able to notice when they are getting annihilated and change how they move and approach us. Time and time again on defense and survival missions you just see the enemies just throw themselves at you until you succumb to their massive girth/damage.

For example: [GRINEER] When the enemies detect that they are getting annihilated they lock all doors and bring in manics to slow your progress in unlocking the doors. Using that time before the doors are unlocked they create a formation. You unlock the doors and BAM! 

Spoiler

you have shield grineer lined up in rows with bombards and snipers behind them firing down at you. Obviously frames like a Slowva or loki, nyx, etc could break that up, but the formations give life to the units. they wont just be meat bags that are thrown at you. The grineer arent stupid. they are smart enough to make super technologies we could only dream of, obviously if you can do that you can make formations and tactics.

 

Example: [GRINEER] When they enemies detect they are all getting killed, they swap ammo types. If they cant damage you quickly they could switch to an ammo type that stuns a warframe alot. So a group of grineer swapping to some sort of shocking rounds that arc to allies and stop/slow their movement. 

the lotus could inform you to be wary of those units using the ammo type and you could focus them.

The corpus have no excuse. they let machines fight for and with them. Surely they can think of a few tactics

Example: [Corpus] The corpus COULD ACTUALLY SEND ONE OF THOSE DAMN PROTOTYPE ENEMIES THEY'VE BEEN WORKING ON FOR YEARS (Ambulas, Raptor, etc) BUT FOR SOME REASON NEVER TEST OUT.

Example: [Corpus] The corpus could use deployable shields like the grineer have and use em as riot shields when needed.

Example: [Corpus] The corpus can use formations like the grineer example that was first stated 

 

[(PSN)GustavTesla]

5 minutes ago, YouHaveShamedYoFamory said:

So as players get better gear and better mods enemies become easier and easier to kill. That's not necessarily a bad thing but that gets boring after doing it so much.

I feel the enemies need to adapt to our power levels  at higher levels, not just with higher hp and damage, but with tactics. The enemies should be able to notice when they are getting annihilated and change how they move and approach us. Time and time again on defense and survival missions you just see the enemies just throw themselves at you until you succumb to their massive girth/damage.

For example: [GRINEER] When the enemies detect that they are getting annihilated they lock all doors and bring in manics to slow your progress in unlocking the doors. Using that time before the doors are unlocked they create a formation. You unlock the doors and BAM! 

  Hide contents

you have shield grineer lined up in rows with bombards and snipers behind them firing down at you. Obviously frames like a Slowva or loki, nyx, etc could break that up, but the formations give life to the units. they wont just be meat bags that are thrown at you. The grineer arent stupid. they are smart enough to make super technologies we could only dream of, obviously if you can do that you can make formations and tactics.

 

Example: [GRINEER] When they enemies detect they are all getting killed, they swap ammo types. If they cant damage you quickly they could switch to an ammo type that stuns a warframe alot. So a group of grineer swapping to some sort of shocking rounds that arc to allies and stop/slow their movement. 

the lotus could inform you to be wary of those units using the ammo type and you could focus them.

The corpus have no excuse. they let machines fight for and with them. Surely they can think of a few tactics

Example: [Corpus] The corpus COULD ACTUALLY SEND ONE OF THOSE DAMN PROTOTYPE ENEMIES THEY'VE BEEN WORKING ON FOR YEARS (Ambulas, Raptor, etc) BUT FOR SOME REASON NEVER TEST OUT.

Example: [Corpus] The corpus could use deployable shields like the grineer have and use em as riot shields when needed.

Example: [Corpus] The corpus can use formations like the grineer example that was first stated 

 

Any of the Grineer ones are fine. As for the Corpus.... No thank you. Reason why, Nullifiers are enough for me to deal with. The enemy AI being smarter and using tactics seems like a nice idea. I like that. Would make the game more interesting. 

[Angrados]

39 minutes ago, (PS4)GustavTesla said:

Any of the Grineer ones are fine. As for the Corpus.... No thank you. Reason why, Nullifiers are enough for me to deal with. The enemy AI being smarter and using tactics seems like a nice idea. I like that. Would make the game more interesting. 

Really, the Corpus do have "tactics", kind of, at least one of them. It's called "Huddle inside of the Nullifier's bubble until it's gone and/or the Tenno are dead". That's more happenstance, though.

To expand the Corpus idea:

{Example}: Corpus deploy two Nullifiers. Within the nullification fields are several Corpus Techs as well as a single shield Osprey.
{Example}:Alarms go off, the doors lock and a swarm of Moa show up. If the player fails to deal with them in an appropriate amount of time a Corpus Dropship flies overhead and drops off a Raptor variant (as the pathing on something like the Jackal or Razorback would get wonky) that would begin going to town. Once all of the robots are dead, the people hack the doors and the Corpus Overseer (I'm calling them that, they don't exactly exist but I think it'd make sense if they were some sort of Comba base with Cestra or something) would try to flee until they could find another thing to lock down. 
{Example}: Implementing some sort of mountable turret for the Corpus that a Sniper Crewman could set up at while a bunch of regular Corpus troops would form up around in order to suppress.

 

Of course, the real question is, would this fit in a game that's evolved into a horde shooter? The tactics would be cool in a more tactical shooter, but I find myself wondering out loud whether or not this would really fit the flow of gameplay. 

[blazinvire]

Also would be nice to give a bit of a fluff and logic to their army, like Grineer Commanders actually command and organize the grunts, instead of being wannabe Lokis.
There's been a dozen times I've been a bit confused why stuff works, like why Grineer insist on shooting Nyx when she's got her doom bubble up, or shooting Saryn's Molt which literally does nothing except explode.  On their own, I'm sure they're too thick to figure out what's going on and just see targets, but Commanders you'd think are smart enough to realize what's going on and slap the grunts into line and shoot something more productive.

[redeyedtreefrog]

43 minutes ago, YouHaveShamedYoFamory said:

you just see the enemies just throw themselves at you until you succumb to their massive girth

in all seriousness, however: This HAS been talked about on devstreams, as an alternative to the currently absurd scaling mechanism that we have in place. Unfortunately, the talk has been minimal and it's either not a priority or they aren't making much progress.

As for the ideas you've put forward, I rather like them. It would be interesting to see some interaction between the various enemy types, and shield lancers are a very good enemy to put ideas forward for. Personally, I'd like to see something a bit more dynamic, in that it's not so much of a big event where they lock the doors, but more of a passive AI interaction. I'm seeing something similar to borderlands' nomads. Here's how it would go: first, shield lancers will spawn in small groups, and will tend to stick together. If they engage a tenno, they will start to direct nearby grineer to attack in certain ways: melee units would be directed so that they come at the tenno all at once, as opposed to each individual enemy coming at the player one by one. Ranged units would be instructed to get behind the shield lancer, and use him as cover. 

As for corpus enemies, they've already got nullifiers, which are one of the few enemies in the game that can even come close to stopping the unending wave of death and dismemberment that is a warframe, but again, I wouldn't mind seeing enemies strategize around nullifiers. I'd say that nullifiers would instruct light units to move ahead of the bubble (potentially blocking shots from hitting and disabling the field), and heavier enemies would stand inside the bubble, probably behind the nullifier since most heavy corpus units are ranged enemies.

The only problem I see with this, though, is that many warframes possess powers that can render any form of formation effectively moot. Vauban can instantly halt whole squads with a bastille, nyx can cause chaos in the ranks, causing formations to fall apart, nidus AND vauban can turn whole rooms into a writhing mass of trapped flesh, and that's just to name a few. In short, I think that the solution to making adaptive AI even affect the current gameplay is to add more interaction with warframe powers. Currently, nullifiers, combas, and bursas are the only common enemies that interact with warframe powers. Those are all corpus. They are also a very binary solution to the problem, and because of that many players don't like them.

One good AI change that I can think of (in the grineer faction) is that placed blunts can be of different varieties, depending on how enemies are being killed or damaged. If a majority of enemies are being killed by warframe powers, they'll deploy an energy blunt, that blocks line of sight for warframe powers, even if the power wouldn't normally require line of sight. If a lot of enemies are being damaged by bullets or guns, they'll deploy a standard blunt. This would still serve as a stumbling block for power-reliant frames and teams, without having the binary 'you have powers or you don't' aspect of nullifier fields.

 

[Loswaith]

The problem being is the AI can be hugely clever and adaptive as it likes (they actually do have a few clever tricks already, they are just rarely ever seen), but it is pointless because Warframes have powers that incapacitate, overwrite that AI or kill the enemies in moments, never letting the enemies actually make use of any advanced AI they may otherwise be given.

The example of the formation the OP gives, is instantly countered by many powers (presuming the enemy gets a chance to even set it up before being countered).  So short of everything being covered in nulifier fields (turning warframe into another generic shooter) any AI upgrades wont really ever be noticed.

As a player pointed out a while back, the game needs better dumb AI, and Ai fitting to the enemies role rather than just a blanket AI for all units.

 

[Angrados]

4 minutes ago, Loswaith said:

The problem being is the AI can be hugely clever and adaptive as it likes (they actually do have a few clever tricks already, they are just rarely ever seen), but it is pointless because Warframes have powers that incapacitate, overwrite that AI or kill the enemies in moments, never letting the enemies actually make use of any advanced AI they may otherwise be given.

The example of the formation the OP gives, is instantly countered by many powers (presuming the enemy gets a chance to even set it up before being countered).  So short of everything being covered in nulifier fields (turning warframe into another generic shooter) any AI upgrades wont really ever be noticed.

As a player pointed out a while back, the game needs better dumb AI, and Ai fitting to the enemies role rather than just a blanket AI for all units.

 

So, if that's the issue how would you suggest getting past the issue of Warframes basically blasting the AI into oblivion before it can act? I know I suggested a segmented progression for the Corpus where they'd shut down entire tiles so the Warframes couldn't just clean house, and the OP suggested something similar for the Grineer, but in terms of effectiveness I agree, we're currently too godlike to do anything substantial.

Either way, I think that the variation would at least help with the tedium that can set in, or at least be more effective than spamming Napalms all over the damn place, like is currently done. 

[Spectolder]

On 31.03.2017 at 7:47 AM, YouHaveShamedYoFamory said:

they are smart enough to make super technologies we could only dream of

Arguably, most of the Grineer have to be hand-held through putting on their own armor - degenerative cloning, much like generations of in-breeding, makes it very hard to have a body capable of sustaining any sufficient mental faculties. If a Grineer is capable of unsimplified English speech, that already shows that this person was carefully enchanced with some of the better implants and biotech available to the Empire, let alone tactical prowess. I remember, however, that there were field commanders able to switch-teleport like Loki, though i don`t seem to encounter them in later areas like Sedna - those may be responsible for execution of some more or less complex manuevers. It would be good to see those commanders on the higher tier locations actually commanding other Grineer to form up, like you offer, perhaps hiding themselves behind the bodies and retreating when few of their soldiers remain to find another group to command, with their inferiors acting all synchronous and disciplinned  in their presence and turning to their usual chaotic behaviour when the local commander is killed. However, most of Warframe takes plase in relatively close quarters, it is hard to build an impressive formation in those tight corridors, so i guess the tactics will also have to be tied to some specific rooms. Takes some serious programming, all i know. Hopefully DE will be able to make something like that happen in the future.

Spoiler

Also Kuva Fortress. That`s where the elite is supposed to be stationed, the better of the best. I wish there would be much fewer of them but with much greater understanding of defencive warfare, contrary to Grineer`s usual zerg rush teams.

 

On 31.03.2017 at 7:54 AM, (PS4)GustavTesla said:

If they cant damage you quickly they could switch to an ammo type that stuns a warframe alot. So a group of grineer swapping to some sort of shocking rounds that arc to allies and stop/slow their movement. 

That sounds less interesting to me. Speed reduction generally puts Tenno to enormous disadvantage - even the damage sponges like Valkyr have to excercise constant agility to keep up the pace of the mission, and that`s good, because feeling like a wall-running bullet-jumping space ninja is a reward in itself, amen. In contrast, if Grineer actually had slowing ammunition, it would make sense for them to simply use it all the time, greatly inducing the cost of error but totally ruining the pace. Also, there are Eximuses already, they are the one specialized stronger units, and some of them actually slow Tenno down.

On 31.03.2017 at 7:47 AM, YouHaveShamedYoFamory said:

PROTOTYPE ENEMIES THEY'VE BEEN WORKING ON FOR YEARS (Ambulas, Raptor, etc) BUT FOR SOME REASON NEVER TEST OUT.

Except they do, that`s when there is the respective boss fight. Every time a prototype proxy is beaten by a Tenno it is proven ever less efficient, and switching most of them to mass-production must be costly on its own - MOA units, in return, are probably dirt cheap, if about as resilient as well.

On 31.03.2017 at 7:47 AM, YouHaveShamedYoFamory said:

The corpus could use deployable shields like the grineer have and use em as riot shields when needed.

I believe it is preferrable that the tactics of two opposing factions radically differ, if only for the sake of diversity of gameplay. Besides, they are not very mobile already, more run-and-bump units akin to Scrambus could make more sense.

On 31.03.2017 at 7:47 AM, YouHaveShamedYoFamory said:

The corpus can use formations like the grineer example that was first stated

Are they real military now? As i see it, the crewmen are supposed to have very rudimental combat training, it`s just not their job - the proxies are supposed to be the bulk of their actual forces, while a crewman will only rush to fight off the Tenno if they really, really want a promotion. On the other hand, the robotic enemies could use some more coordination for sure, with one group distracting the enemy while another moves to flank, for example.

Edited April 1, 2017 by Spectolder

[Angrados]

1 hour ago, Spectolder said:

Are they real military now? As i see it, the crewmen are supposed to have very rudimental combat training, it`s just not their job - the proxies are supposed to be the bulk of their actual forces, while a crewman will only rush to fight off the Tenno if they really, really want a promotion. On the other hand, the robotic enemies could use some more coordination for sure, with one group distracting the enemy while another moves to flank, for example.

I dropped an idea about a Corpus Overseer earlier in the thread. Do you think that could work sort of toward what you're talking about?

[YouHaveShamedYoFamory]

8 hours ago, Spectolder said:

 

Except they do, that`s when there is the respective boss fight. Every time a prototype proxy is beaten by a Tenno it is proven ever less efficient, and switching most of them to mass-production must be costly on its own - MOA units, in return, are probably dirt cheap, if about as resilient as well.

thats when we go to them tho. they should come to us when the going gets tough

[Crashen]

In another thread there was talk of making grineer commanders more commanding. My suggestion was that they become sort of like an arctic eximus.They would project an orange laser energy field like the ones used to block doors in spy missions.

These domes would physically prevent warframes from entering or exiting them, but grineer would be unaffected. Weapons fired into the shield would have the damage split evenly amongst all grineer within the shield, and with the shield itself. After taking enough damage, the shield would break.

Certain weapons, such as bows, crossbows and snipers would punch straight through and ignore the damage redirection. Powers would also ignore the redirection, but maybe suffer a modest damage reduction. Nothing major. However, electrical damage would deal its full damage to everyone inside the dome. 

Grineer firing out of the shield would deal increased damage and have an increased fire rate. Likewise, they would cluster around the Commander like corpus do with nullifiers.

However, if a commander is killed while their shield is up, all grineer affected by their aura are terrified, scatter and suffer reduced damage. Maybe open to finishers too. They could yell something like "SKWAD BOKEN!" 

Oh, and teleport abilities (such as teleport, switch teleport, twin basolk mod etc) as well as riftwalking can pass through the shields.

Also cool would be if the commander (equipped with a marelok) would execute low health grineer to provide a damage/health boost to all other grineer under its command aura.

[Spectolder]

On 31.03.2017 at 10:59 AM, Angrados said:

I dropped an idea about a Corpus Overseer earlier in the thread. Do you think that could work sort of toward what you're talking about?

Well, i`m uncertain whether this would make sense from the point of Corpus` technology. It would be logical to assume that all their bases are highly networked so it is unnecessary to stand in the next room to initiate any defencives, risking to be immedeately torn apart once the lockdown is breached. An Overseer, on the other hand, could be operating a security switchboard in a well-protected sideway of the level and give Tenno some huge advantage for all the time they`ve wasted on getting through him, like an opportunity to shut down some of the more troubling proxies via the switchboard.

[Spectolder]

On 31.03.2017 at 6:15 PM, YouHaveShamedYoFamory said:

thats when we go to them tho. they should come to us when the going gets tough

My idea was that most of them are proven by Tenno to be too cost-inefficient to have them produced en masse and deployed at numerous heat points. There is a reason Jackal Prototype remains a prototype, contrary to Bursas that can actually give most players trouble and therefore come in a more or less wide series, though limited by their supposed high price.

[DrBorris]

I hope one day there is a "Faction AI". As others have said having a smart unit is stupid because their TTK is so low, but what could be interesting is a secondary layer of AI that tells groups where to go, picks spawn locations, etcetera. It would not handle the little things like movement and where to aim, it would just look at the big picture (whole map), look at the locations of Tenno, look at available spawn points, and look at where units are dying.

Like if enemies are being killed pretty much on spawn in a choke, then the Faction AI would start spawning enemies someplace else. Or maybe it would continue to spawn low tier enemies at that choke to keep those pesky Warframes busy, then spawn a bunch of high level units at a spawn point behind them (You never die to the Lancer in front of you, it is the Bombard behind you that normally gets you).

And maybe if there is one Tenno separated from the rest of the group, the AI could just slam a bunch of enemies on that one guy who forgot they were playing a co-op game. Big moves like this would have to be on a bit of a cooldown, but just altering the AI could make the game more co-op by encouraging players to stay together.

[Artekkor]

DE already made their statement on AI of enemies in one of the devstreams.

There are grunts and there are "real" enemies (bosses, mini-bosses).

Grunts die in 1 bullet. They have no time window to show off their AI. Therefore investing in their AI is pointless.

Grunts will stay stupid, the only enemies that DE will invest AI into are enemies who can survive for much longer.

Sentients, manics, bursas, bosses, etc.

[Omnipower]

7 minutes ago, Artek94 said:

DE already made their statement on AI of enemies in one of the devstreams.

There are grunts and there are "real" enemies (bosses, mini-bosses).

Grunts die in 1 bullet. They have no time window to show off their AI. Therefore investing in their AI is pointless.

Grunts will stay stupid, the only enemies that DE will invest AI into are enemies who can survive for much longer.

Sentients, manics, bursas, bosses, etc.

and to add onto this the game would have to change drastically to implement all of this "sophisticated" AI you guys begging for meaning resources will have to make sense, grinding will have to be redefined and so on. Basically the game will have to be remade from the ground up cause sometimes even the slightest change can affect the entire or a large portion of the game. And you can trust that many ppl will go up in arms if we get something like hema again while our ability to farm has been reduced in any way.

Example of the OP idea + what i mention: Grineer poly farm, as you continuously kill in that nice camp spot you found raking in those sweet bundles they keep locking the doors making you waste time with unlocking doors, plus they decide to stay away from you instead of bombard you with fresh bodies so  now you have to move constantly skewing spawn rates which is another can of worms. Basically its good intentions but i just cant see this happening unless DE decides to change EVERYTHING it will affect.

[Lost_Cartographer]

Either many enemies would need a redesign or the numbers game across the board would need to be severely crunched down and brought under control before better AI can be implemented.  We'd only notice that AI if our bullets didn't kill in one bullet despite spraying at 600rpm, or if our powers didn't clear out half the map with the press of a button.  In short, one of two things needs to happen to make better AI worthwhile:

Either...

A: Our killing power and their health/armor/shield scaling is severely reduced.  The stat crunch method where our damage increases marginally as does enemy scaling health values (what damage 3.0 was supposed to culminate into I imagine.) 

Or...

B: More enemies have "invulnerabilities" in some shape or form.  Like napalms/bombards carrying a big &#! shield(s) that can't simply be shot through with punch through that can also block most if not all powers (directional facing determined.)  Actually, these guys need a unique model, period (think Starcraft 2's marauder as a starting point.)  Corpus techs deploying unique ospreys that need to be taken down first before any ranged damage can reach the actual tech.  These guys also need a unique model (I suggest a bipedal proxy like a super battle droid, or a guy strapped into power armor.)  Basically, ANYTHING that at the base level forces the player approach their enemy in a way that isn't the simple two step process of, "Step 1: Crowd control to complete incapability to do anything -> Step 2: Shoot the hell out of them" but forces them to deliberately approach the enemy in a more focused way.

[KingOfHearts]

Make all enemy's invulnerable that will give them something to talk about ay!?

Well i actualy wouldnt mind that! Please new enemy's.Scores of enemy's, hundreds, thousands, millions, infinite number of new enemy's idc who they are or what they do, please more new enemy's. Add them and ignore anyone who is a cry baby about this or that, anyone who doesnt understand how to kill them etc.
Thats all i have to say about this. Warframe needs less new guns and less new frames cause it doesnt matter how many you have, nobody cares how many you have because in a mission where it matters you can only have 3 weapons and 1 frame. But you can have potentioly infinite number of different enemy's enemy's!!!

[(XBOX)Harper Lord]

Of all of the AI's I would like to see in Warframe, Division's AI (after the improvement) would be an interesting change granted its a cover based shooter vs a mobility based one but that AI impressed me at how adaptable it was to situations. (i.e. it knew when it was outnumbered/outmatched and would retreat to teammates, they would stick near their own healers and protect them etc.) something like that in Warframe for higher tier missions or sorties where it can adapt to what you do and try to counter it would be really enjoyable, at least for me.

[decksmeck]

1. They could attempt to make them protect their squad mates rather than just themselves. Just see what they do.

2. Program them a revenge mode when you kill their best buddy. 

3. Give important ones a "concentrate fire" command.

 

Corpus - machines are cheap. When machines are present, fall back or take cover and support them.

Grineer infantry - Keep up with and support heavy units when they are present. From cover if possible.

Infested - free for all

 

 

Worth a shot. Just to see what it looks like.

Edited April 5, 2017 by decksmeck

[decksmeck]

powerful infested units with intelligence might still be able to "concentrate attack" on a target. Could simulate a hive mentality since the infested might not have buddies so they wouldn't seek revenge and break off from the attacking force.

 

All units, Corpus, Grineer, and Infested might go into "self defense mode" when attacked. Maybe not all infested types though. Some might be just that mindless that they always act as a hive mind.

 

Also, greatly increase the speed at which units can take cover and begin to return fire. They are just too slow. They need to sprint to cover not jog.  

Edited April 5, 2017 by decksmeck

[decksmeck]

During an assault - advanced AI might include

Corpus/Grineer

- Advance from cover to cover

- Not all units advance simultaneously. Some lay down suppressing fire while others advance(sprint) to cover. Then they alternate. 

- Improve grenades to affect a wider knock down radius and a shorter fuse. Units with the grenade ability can use them while supressing. On a    cooldown.

- Nullifiers are attracted to warframe powers as a favorite target, like frost snowglobe. They pop their bubble not just to protect themselves but to disrupt these powers. When assaulting they get in close to the targeted power and pop the bubble. When defending they might pop it for defense.

- Eximus units that have AOE effects like to work together. When multiple AOE eximus units get close together their effects stack to some degree. Artic eximus units, for instance, working together would slow down a warframe even further and reduce maximum shielding. These units, that affect warframes, like to be close to warframes.

- Some types of melee units can stagger a warframe with a higher degree of accuracy and speed. On a cool down. Multiple melee units in close range to a warframe can execute a combo. The first staggers. The second knocks down if the stagger lasts long enough, A third can do a finisher (might not be lethal but damaging) if they don't get up fast enough. If any of the melee units take damage during the combo they can't advance the combo. Allows team mates to help a warframe in that cycle.

Edited April 6, 2017 by decksmeck

[Omnimorph]

I've never played a PvE multiplayer game in which players didn't complain about the AI.  

It's also never clear what complainers-about-AI are using as their gold standard.  What game has the amazing AI that everyone's always expecting from every game, and disappointed by not finding?  Or is it just an imagined immersive ideal?

I suspect AI is just hard to program, not necessarily intrinsically hard, but rather hard because it eats resources and multiplayer games have a strictly limited budget, so it'a always some kind of balancing act for the developers.

My general feeling (although it's a bit harsh, I know) is that if you expect intelligent tricksiness from PvE you're barking up the wrong tree, you should play PvP and see how much you like intelligent tricksiness in a videogame opponent then  :)

Edited April 6, 2017 by Omnimorph