[Update 20] Limbo Revisited Feedback Megathread

[ChameleonBro]

5 hours ago, -CM-Haardrale said:

Definitely shouldn't give you energy for kills on cataclysm deactivation, that's nuts. Fix that and it's a perfect ability otherwise.

Since I don't use cataclysm to deal damage, I never noticed it, tested it now.

Apologies for being wrong on other posts before this, to everyone, @Murkar included. Should have checked that first.

I was assuming because of how Limbos passive andCataclysm worked. I don't like nuking so I kept away from it, there has to be energy drain to a nuke there is just no other way.

[(PSN)psycofang]

2 hours ago, (PS4)mahoshonenfox said:

And its not uncommon for most Limbo builds to have like 600 energy anyway.

 

Most Limbos do not have primed flow, this drastically harms people who arent lucky enough to get p flow (and level it) and are stuck with flow.

This cuts into their survivability and EHP, just stopping the energy return on collapse should be enough or linking it to power strength which would in turn up its cost.

Edited April 6, 2017 by (PS4)psycofang

[(PSN)scinut71]

I agree Cataclysm collapse should not refund energy.  Go right ahead and implement that. But I disagree it should cost the player energy when it kills enemies by player collapse or just time progression.  Especially if it costs 10 energy for each enemy killed. If this is implemented it will severely limit Limbo's effectiveness as a solo player and reduce him to a support role in team play until his energy regenerates.

[(PSN)psycofang]

That and it would almost forcibly lock him into Zenurik to help combat it or rarely if ever collapse it on targets.

[(PSN)mahoshonenfox]

15 minutes ago, (PS4)psycofang said:

 

Most Limbos do not have primed flow, this drastically harms people who arent lucky enough to get p flow (and level it) and are stuck with flow.

This cuts into their survivability and EHP, just stopping the energy return on collapse should be enough or linking it to power strength which would in turn up its cost.

Well, they technically shouldn't really need 600 energy. Even 300 is fine. On other warframes, sure, its too costly but Limbo regenerates energy naturally just by standing in the rift and by killing enemies. Not to mention, if he doesn't want to fight, he can just take cover in the rift and that doesn't use energy either. It won't affect his survivability at all.

The idea is, he's gonna be like a giant charging satellite canon, absorbing power as he kills enemies in the rift. And when he's ready, he can discharge it through Cataclysm's collapse whenever he wants. Then he starts gathering power again if ever he'll need another blast.

Edit: I just realized Equinox is kind of like that too. She needs to collect damage so her Maim deals a ton of damage. But in Limbo's case, he just needs to gather energy. Which is easier because he gets that even by being idle in the rift. You can also count in Energy Siphon and Zenurik and whenever he kills an enemy, he gets 10 back.

Edited April 6, 2017 by (PS4)mahoshonenfox

[ChameleonBro]

I am pretty sure most people here are aware that Limbos Cataclysm can now be  used as a nuke. How ironic that a build that used to be a joke is now an actual thing. But how to fix this without ruining the ability ? It's quite simple. Limbo is my most played warframe and my favorite as well, I am very pleased with this rework and don't want it to become bad because of a nerf in the wrong place.

 

Cataclysm scales now which is why it does this much damage, but the scaling is NOT the problem and should not be nerfed or stripped away from Cataclysm. Without it Cataclysm is very underwhelming. It has to do with his energy which I belive could possibly be a bug. Upon killing enemies with Cataclysm you gain 10 energy per enemy killed which means a max ranged Cataclysm always refills your energy giving you infinite nukes. This is the problem, a nuke is alright to have as long as it's got restrictions and limitations in terms of usage. It is already enough that you lose on most of the rest of your abilities in favor of a perfect nuke, but the reason why people use that over the rest of his kit is because they don't lose the killing potential with this nuke nor do they lose any energy, a nuke that you can just spam.

 

The solution is to take away the energy regen you get from killing enemies with Cataclysm. Before I though you didn't gain energy from this because the passive gives you energy only if you kill enemies inside the rift, so I thought that it was intended by DE that you leaving the Cataclysm puts you out of the Rift because of this very reason. to prevent infinite energy regeneration with Cataclysm. Again the scaling is not a bad thing, in fact it is essential in a game like Warframe and having a nuke is all good as long as it acts like an actual nuke, a powerful blast that costs you a lot of energy, an ability that is very energy consuming. 

 

This is the only thing that has to be done to fix this mess, let's hope that DE doesn't overdo it with the nerf because Cataclysm is DEFINITELY going to get nerfed, it has to, but not in the wrong way. Reducing it's damage scaling is not going to help, energy drain will though.

 

(very late) EDIT: They could also implement damage drop off the higher the range ?

Edited April 7, 2017 by ChameleonBro

[DeMonkey]

6 hours ago, (PS4)varas2110 said:

I've never really seen an ability that gets it own Lotus also neither have I seen something other than quests get a non repetitive Lotus message (relics, missions, people dying, etc) 

I said the pop up that appears when you approach a Kiva Siphon. The one that simply says what button to use to become your Operator.

Also, no other ability has such a huge impact on how players play the mission.

6 hours ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

given the seperated pairing for different languages/countrys? Yes, indeed.

Sorry, I completely forgot that there was a separate region for France/Germany/Poland/Denmark/Spain/Portugal etc.

Please don't be ridiculous, had enough of it in this thread already.

[Skaleek]

Wow I had no idea that kills in cataclysm refunded energy.... Certainly doesn't need that. 

[Hemmo67]

or simpler way would be to cap how much it can dmg an enemy cuz right now it can insta kill em if u stack enough enemies but lets say we make is so it can only take away 70% of enemies max health (with current way it deals dmg 10% per enemy health is added to dmg pool) it no longer insta kills. everyone should be happy.

right??

Spoiler

 

Edited April 6, 2017 by Hemmo67

[Xekrin]

10 energy per kill is freaking ridiculous anyway.  Saryn gets 2 energy from popping spores with a melee while using toxic lash and considering we 1 shot 90% of enemies with melee up to level 150 we are losing out on 4 energy per kill.

Nidus gets energy back but its dependent on hits by a very narrow ability and his efficiency, and the almost required usage of a 2nd ability to ensure hits which means if you miss or run out of energy you are screwed.

Personally I think DE was super nervous about the reception of reworking a (somewhat) beloved frame (by a hardcore select few) that they went way overboard on the perks of the rework to make it more desirable.

Whatever, it won't get fixed, it should have been tweaked by now.

[Trichouette]

3 minutes ago, Skaleek said:

Wow I had no idea that kills in cataclysm refunded energy.... Certainly doesn't need that. 

It's limbo's passive.

Ennemies killed in the rift grant him 10 energy.

 

In my opinion, cataclysm shouldn't have damage scaling.

To me, the uses of cataclysm are :

• Banish an area / objective to defend it
• Banish everything > surge > remove cataclysm, in order to have all enemies stuck in the rift
• Grant limbo a personnal arena

I don't see why limbo should have a nuke, especially since he has pretty much everything unless healing. (which he has, unless for himself)

[Skaleek]

4 minutes ago, Trichouette said:

It's limbo's passive.

I thought his passive was the ability to dodge in and out of the rift? At least thats what it says in the abilities UI ingame.

Edited April 6, 2017 by Skaleek

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

23 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

Sorry, I completely forgot that there was a separate region for France/Germany/Poland/Denmark/Spain/Portugal etc.

Please don't be ridiculous, had enough of it in this thread already.

There are actually. Consoles even pair by the selected language in the menu.

Main reason most people change the settings to US, me includet. Downside to this is the fact that most of europe is essencially dead at some times of the day. Not much of an issue as most countrys in europe teach english.

 

But sure, ignore that fact to push your agenda. Go ahead. Not like that's new or anything.

Edited April 6, 2017 by (PS4)CoolD2108

[SANYA501]

9 minutes ago, ChameleonBro said:

scaling is not a bad thing, in fact it is essential in a game like Warframe

Yup, latest frame like nidus and octavia is a good example of frames that scale into late game VERY well. I'm not a heavy Limbo user even after the rework, But I'm actually really worried about how the dev are going to do with Limbo nerf after those Feedback. In fact every older warframe should be reworked imo to actually scale well into higher level content.....

hope DE wont overdo the nerf for limbo.....*cough* Telos Boltace*cough*

[Trichouette]

Just now, Skaleek said:

I thought his passive was the ability to dodge in and out of the rift? At least thats what it says in the abilities UI ingame.

From the U20 thread

Quote

While in the Rift, Limbo receives a slight Energy regeneration. Additionally, enemies killed in the Rift will grant Limbo 10 Energy.

He has many passives....

(meanwhile some frame are stuck with useless / ridiculous passives)

[Cat__Nap]

2 minutes ago, Trichouette said:

In my opinion, cataclysm shouldn't have damage scaling.

To me, the uses of cataclysm are :

• Banish an area / objective to defend it
• Banish everything > surge > remove cataclysm, in order to have all enemies stuck in the rift
• Grant limbo a personnal arena

I don't see why limbo should have a nuke, especially since he has pretty much everything unless healing. (which he has, unless for himself)

There's nothing wrong with him having a nuke, or having it scale. Why  not add more build variety when reworking a frame? The ONLY thing he was used for before was Rescue/Sortie Defense; take away his nuke and you remove one of the added builds from his rework. Does that mean the build should stay as is? No. It's obviously too powerful. But removing its scaling ability would make it useless at mid to high levels, just like every other non-scaling ability.

Equinox can oneshot things, but she's not OP. Know why? She can't spam that oneshot. And do note that she literally presses the same button twice to do this damage - just like Limbo. She just can't use it every 2 seconds. 

I agree with OP - I didn't realize it was giving infinite energy, and that being the case, the ability needs to be the exception to his passive. That might slow it down enough to balance it without ruining its damage dealing capability.

[Skaleek]

3 minutes ago, Trichouette said:

From the U20 thread

He has many passives....

(meanwhile some frame are stuck with useless / ridiculous passives)

Yeah, what a stacked passive. That's pretty OP compared to... increased wall latch time, and zephyr's float.... to name a few.

[PsiWarp]

IMO if they moved the scaling damage to Rift Surge (alongside your idea), that should be sufficient setup and acceptable cost for a nuke of this magnitude. Rift Surge feels lacking, Cataclysm feels overpowered, so combine em to find the balance.

[Trichouette]

11 minutes ago, Skaleek said:

Yeah, what a stacked passive. That's pretty OP compared to... increased wall latch time, and zephyr's float.... to name a few.

I'm still laughing at oberon

 

11 minutes ago, Cat__Nap said:

There's nothing wrong with him having a nuke, or having it scale. Why  not add more build variety when reworking a frame? The ONLY thing he was used for before was Rescue/Sortie Defense; take away his nuke and you remove one of the added builds from his rework. Does that mean the build should stay as is? No. It's obviously too powerful. But removing its scaling ability would make it useless at mid to high levels, just like every other non-scaling ability.

Well in my opinion a frame that already have CC and amazing defense & support tools shouldn't ALSO be a nuker. Especially a nuker that can nuke with 40% strength.

11 minutes ago, Cat__Nap said:

Equinox can oneshot things, but she's not OP. Know why? She can't spam that oneshot. And do note that she literally presses the same button twice to do this damage - just like Limbo. She just can't use it every 2 seconds. 

Uh... Actually she IS op, and she CAN spam it. You just have to kill 2 or 3 enemies and you've enough stacked damage to blow up the map.

Press 4 > OS some enemies with a well placed shot of shotgun with punchthrough > press 4 > congratulation

11 minutes ago, Cat__Nap said:

I agree with OP - I didn't realize it was giving infinite energy, and that being the case, the ability needs to be the exception to his passive. That might slow it down enough to balance it without ruining its damage dealing capability.

For some reasons, when he got reworked I noticed the collapse of the cataclysm granted energy for each ennemy killed but it didn't work on all faction and I had no idea why. Now it seems to work...

Edited April 6, 2017 by Trichouette

[(PSN)mahoshonenfox]

7 minutes ago, Trichouette said:

It's limbo's passive.

Ennemies killed in the rift grant him 10 energy.

 

In my opinion, cataclysm shouldn't have damage scaling.

To me, the uses of cataclysm are :

• Banish an area / objective to defend it
• Banish everything > surge > remove cataclysm, in order to have all enemies stuck in the rift
• Grant limbo a personnal arena

I don't see why limbo should have a nuke, especially since he has pretty much everything unless healing. (which he has, unless for himself)

Well, Limbo has always had this as a nuke even before the rework. He's one of the fastest DPS on Berehinya. With a max range max power Cataclysm, people could do 1.2k kills in one rotation. But that caps off at level 40. This rework made it so that Limbo can do this on higher levels.

The thing is, pre-rework Limbo still relied on an EV Trinity to get those kills since Cata back then never restored energy.

[Trichouette]

2 minutes ago, (PS4)mahoshonenfox said:

Well, Limbo has always had this as a nuke even before the rework. He's one of the fastest DPS on Berehinya. With a max range max power Cataclysm, people could do 1.2k kills in one rotation. But that caps off at level 40. This rework made it so that Limbo can do this on higher levels.

The thing is, pre-rework Limbo still relied on an EV Trinity to get those kills since Cata back then never restored energy.

Well before you needed a huge bunch of efficiency & strength & range, now you just need range.

It used to be a very dedicated build only for nuke, now you can play whatever you want AND be a nuker (even though it's better with range)

Edited April 6, 2017 by Trichouette

[aligatorno]

3 minutes ago, Trichouette said:

 

Uh... Actually she IS op, and she CAN spam it. You just have to kill 2 or 3 enemies and you've enough stacked damage to blow up the map.

Press 4 > OS some enemies with a well placed shot a shotgun with punchthrough > press 4 > congratulation

 

Not to the grineer you are not. Especially at higher levels when they get so much armor. 

[DeMonkey]

7 minutes ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

There are actually. Plus server racks. Consoles even pair by the selected language in the menu.

Main reason most people change the settings to US, me includet. Downside to this is the fact that most of europe is essencially dead. Not much of an issue as most countrys in europe teach english.

 

But sure, ignore that fact to push your agenda. Go ahead. Not like that's new or anything.

You're assuming that this is a fact on PC, it isn't. I have regularly run into people who do not speak English.

But yes, how dare I try and push such a terrible agenda. Wanting simple tips so that people understand how to get out of the rift. Oh woe is me. Better sue me.

[Buzkyl]

1 minute ago, aligatorno said:

Not to the grineer you are not. Especially at higher levels when they get so much armor. 

Corrosive Projection.

Also to simple change would be to Allow Cataclysm damage to scale with how long it's been opened it can start off at 1% and scale to 10% over a period of time. 

[Mypi]

Issues with the rework:

1- Cataclysm damage scaling.

First of all, some videos:

nuking a few level 100 ancient healers with an UNMODDED limbo in 1 cataclysm use: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ED__6Uxsm0

nuking a few level 100 fusion moas with an UNMODDED limbo in 1 cataclysm use: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HNTylfcRFPk

Why was this added? It turns Limbo into a mash-4 frame, with the best AoE nuke in the game. There's no point in using any of his other abilities besides the passive roll, thanks to this.

Saryn/Excal/Mesa/Mag/Simulor/[insert instakill AoE]/etc were all reworked for this exact same reason. It's not fun to play with someone that can press 1 button to kill the entire map.

Suggestion: Move the scaling damage to Rift Surge. With stasis, cataclysm doesn't need this anymore.

 

2- It's too slow/difficult to see which enemies/allies are in the rift.

All they get is a small black smoke effect that's completely useless when trying to find your rifted enemies while they're in a pack full of non-rifted ones.

Suggestion: Make enemies/allies in the opposite plane from you translucent/almost invisible, and able to be shot through.

 

3- Banish can target allies during a hack, canceling it. Banish AoE effect can hit allies, even when aimed at enemies.

Failed 3 sortie rescues in a row because of a random limbo trolling, banishing everyone that tried to initiate a hack.

AoE hitting allies just pisses off your melee ally, that suddenly gets rifted and doesn't notice.

Suggestion: Make banish on allies single-target. Make allies hacking immune to being rifted during it's minigame.

 

4- (This one is harder to implement, but still essential) Rift Surge.

This overly complicated mess of an ability might be the worst skill in the game right now. It's use overlaps cataclysm, except it has a tiny area, a complicated sequence of steps required to work, and just wastes your allies time, accomplishing literally nothing in the end.

At least the augment is okay, i guess.

Suggestion: Set it on fire. I really don't know what to do with this. But i'll try: Make it work against non-rifted enemies for the initial activation (regardless of which plane you're in), and on affected enemy death, throw all enemies nearby (on either planes) into the rift. If an already rifted enemy is in range of a marked enemy death pulse, make it take scaling damage based on number of enemies hit by the same death pulse.

Edited April 6, 2017 by Mypi