[Update 20] Limbo Revisited Feedback Megathread

[Soulden]

2 minutes ago, bl4ckhunter said:

it's not exactly a gamebreaking problem is it?

Saryn Miasma was never ground breaking, considering it was the shortest (or still is?) aoe ability in game.
Yet, it didn't stopped forum, nor DE from changing it, due to spammability.

[-N7-Leonhart]

Just now, prot0mega said:

Oh you think insta nuke limbo is bad, that's cute. Wait till you team up with a perma stasis cataclysm limbo, in a freaking survival mission

Annoying and frustrating don't even begin to describe it.

That too. Can't kill anything until Limbo blows them away all at once. Hell indeed.

[MithrilDragon]

You do know Limbo can collapse his cataclysm at will.  No need for low duration build.

And they already took away Limbo's true strength: Banishing enemies into the rift from within the rift.

Also, you really need to set your matchmaking to solo.  You'll be much happier in the end.

Edited April 7, 2017 by MithrilDragon

[-N7-Leonhart]

1 minute ago, MithrilDragon said:

You do know Limbo can collapse his cataclysm at will.  No need for low duration build.

Yeah, but the point is that Limbo doesn't even need to mind the duration nor the strength of the build. Range and efficiency all the way, what a convenient ability....

[Buzkyl]

Cataclsym isn't likely going to get nerf because it's powerful

Its probably going to get nerfed because it's being abused. Players who abuse it are the same that when it's inevitably nerfed will move onto the next AoE nuker frame.

The same who will say "Limbo is now useless" because h can no longer mass cataclysm spam, players like that play the frame for the meta, not for the frame itself.

[-N7-Leonhart]

2 minutes ago, Buzkyl said:

Cataclsym isn't likely going to get nerf because it's powerful

Its probably going to get nerfed because it's being abused. Players who abuse it are the same that when it's inevitably nerfed will move onto the next AoE nuker frame.

The same who will say "Limbo is now useless" because h can no longer mass cataclysm spam, players like that play the frame for the meta, not for the frame itself.

Very true indeed. Pretty much anything that is powerful but underused never gets nerfed in WF. That's not necessarily wrong. If it doesn't affect lots of players, then it's not a priority.

But that definitely not the case with Limbo now. And yeah, the nerf WILL take place sooner or later, but it's best for it to be sooner, before it takes roots even more as a meta.

Edited April 7, 2017 by -N7-Leonhart

[Xardis]

One way to make Limbo more fluid would be like this:

1 - Banish can be used regardless of the plane of the target.

2 - Time stop from Stasis triggers at the begining of the casting animation. If not make the animation 2x faster. Even with natural talent it has noticeable delay. How long can it take to just say ZA WARUDO???

2 - Stasis doesnt stop ranged attacks of you and your allies. What happens instead is that damage is applied normaly to the target in the rift like with melee. Even if you deal the damage to kill, the affinity is rewarded in the same instant when Stasis is toggled off, thats the moment when enemies technicly die.

2 - Make Stasis channaled ability, not time based. The cost is 2 energy per sec if you are not in the rift, if you are, all passive energy gain is blocked instead - rift regen, energy siphon, zenurik.

4 - Cata deals set damage to each target and doesnt scale with HP/Shields of enemies inside. Set damage scales with power strength.

Rift - While in the rift Limbo can gain more energy than the cap, unlimited ammount. For each 50 over the cap he is dealt 5 radiation damage every 4s. When he exits the rift, all energy over the cap is dealt as 2x that ammount of radiation damage in the realscape in the range of 6m. On to of that all enemies in the rift are dealt 2% of their HP/Shields as radiation damage every 1.5s with 75% chance to get proced by radiation. Radiation proced enemies in the rift have that status proc till they exit the rift, then the timer of the proc is equal to 2.5s affected by duration mods. When you die due to the damage from overenergy you cast cataclysm with you at its center. Note, quick thinking cant save you from damage from overenergy.

I dont know how would this work with those values so they are only here coz I think its balanced.

Edited April 7, 2017 by Xardis

[(PSN)VaDeR81]

Have it scale to the 10% when at base 100 power strength. That way u  have to use blind rage or a combo of two strength mods to get the 10 percent. Can't abuse the overextended mod. I think that's fair. 

[-N7-Leonhart]

16 minutes ago, (PS4)VaDeR81 said:

Have it scale to the 10% when at base 100 power strength. That way u  have to use blind rage or a combo of two strength mods to get the 10 percent. Can't abuse the overextended mod. I think that's fair. 

It's not that easy as you make it sound, as that would basically be a buff in a lot of situations. You can easily put enough Max STR and Range and it will have 20% instead of 10%, Or, you can ditch Overextended completely for a smaller, but far more powerful Cataclysm. Nope, it will have to be a lot lower than this to make it fair.

[(PSN)VaDeR81]

Just now, -N7-Leonhart said:

It's not that easy as you make it sound, as that would basically be a buff in a lot of situations. You can easily put enough Max STR and Range and it will have 20% instead of 10%, Or, you can ditch Overextended completely for a smaller, but far more powerful Cataclysm. Nope, it will have to be a lot lower than this to make it fair.

No I mean the max would be the 10 percent it is now,  but u need to have at least 100 power strength to get it. I know there could still be issues but your using more mod slots in general and if u choose blind rage u lose efficiency and so on. 

[(XBOX)Kliuqard]

So with the outrage of how powerful Limbo's cataclysm is with it's extremely powerful scaling ability, I thought of an idea on how to tone it down while also giving Catsclysm a little more identity. 

---

So I was originally thinking of reducing the enemy health percentage as damage to something like 2-3% and having enemies killed in cataclysm contribute to damage with a higher health percentage (with rift surged enemies contributing higher damage) but I found it too similar to Equinox's maim.

Anyways,

Cataclysm

Limbo places a rift tear onto the battle field with the tear shrinking in size as the duration continues. An entry and exit in the tear will contribute 1% of the enemy's health who entered or exited the tear, stunning them in the process. An indicator of the damage can be displayed. Rift surged enemies who leave or enter will starting dealing 50 damage every 5 seconds with a guaranteed blast Proc to enemies with 5 meters of them.

When Cataclysm reaches it's last 20% of it's duration, it will start to vacuum enemies within 5 meters (increased by range) and start contributing 1% (2% for enemies affected by rift surge) health of the enemies every 2 seconds until the tear collapses, dealing all stored damage + 500 damage as blast damage. Any projectiles (friend or foe) in cataclysm stopped by stasis will deal it's damage as part of the collapse (not accounting for critical damage). 

If Cataclysm is stopped early, it will remain for 3 seconds, rapidly shrinking while vacuuming enemies within 5 meters (also affected by range) using 4% of every enemy's health ( + 100 damage) as part of the explosion damage if the enemy was in the tear.

---

It's very crude and thought of in about 20 minutes, but I feel that it rewards Limbos who keep their cataclysm on while also giving benefits for using other abilities within it. It still does something when stopped prematurely, but is much less effective than keeping it on.

[Ozent]

1 hour ago, Xardis said:

One way to make Limbo more fluid would be like this:

1 - Banish can be used regardless of the plane of the target.

2 - Time stop from Stasis triggers at the begining of the casting animation. If not make the animation 2x faster. Even with natural talent it has noticeable delay. How long can it take to just say ZA WARUDO???

2 - Stasis doesnt stop ranged attacks of you and your allies. What happens instead is that damage is applied normaly to the target in the rift like with melee. Even if you deal the damage to kill, the affinity is rewarded in the same instant when Stasis is toggled off, thats the moment when enemies technicly die.

2 - Make Stasis channaled ability, not time based. The cost is 2 energy per sec if you are not in the rift, if you are, all passive energy gain is blocked instead - rift regen, energy siphon, zenurik.

4 - Cata deals set damage to each target and doesnt scale with HP/Shields of enemies inside. Set damage scales with power strength.

Rift - While in the rift Limbo can gain more energy than the cap, unlimited ammount. For each 50 over the cap he is dealt 5 radiation damage every 4s. When he exits the rift, all energy over the cap is dealt as 2x that ammount of radiation damage in the realscape in the range of 6m. On to of that all enemies in the rift are dealt 2% of their HP/Shields as radiation damage every 1.5s with 75% chance to get proced by radiation. Radiation proced enemies in the rift have that status proc till they exit the rift, then the timer of the proc is equal to 2.5s affected by duration mods. When you die due to the damage from overenergy you cast cataclysm with you at its center. Note, quick thinking cant save you from damage from overenergy.

I dont know how would this work with those values so they are only here coz I think its balanced.

1. Rather than banish being able to be used abywhere, since it makes a target/targets hard to focus, make it just the opposite of what it is right now, i.e. pull enemies into rift while in rift, or pull enemies back out when not in rift.

2. I'm pretty sure DE put that self projectile stop as a downside of being able to just freeze enemies. Making it channeled I don't really know,it's fine as it is now. Since I run natural talent speed drift lmao. EDIT: Hence the projectile limit.

3. You forgot 3

4. That's just cata without the scaling. They should make it like 5~8%, and make it scale with power strength, making overextended make it bad. And remember, it's based off of current health, not max health, so at 5% you need to capture 20 enemies essensially and have 4x corrosive projection to do the full damage.

Rift. Bad idea, all you have to do is spam cata then get out lmao. Also, I interpret what Ordis said as be careful where you leave/enter the rift, i.e. dont leave rift into a bunch of enemies, or enter rift into a bunch of enemies. If staying in rift too long applies debuffs to tenno, then the effect would be added to affect enemies too, which I think would be a pretty bad idea. Just banish the enemies and let them die over time?, who needs cata or stasis? Just banish every enemy in the map. EDIT 2: Oh I just saw you applied it to enemies, yeah, read my thought about it right above. You literally wont need your other 3 skills, just banish.

 

Edited April 7, 2017 by Ozent

[Aquasurge]

the solution for the whole "limbo nuke" issue is easily fixed if the enemies on the collapse of cataclysm didn't count towards the 10 energy per kill while in the rift passive limbo has. this should prevent spamming and hence give incentive to keep cataclysm active for as long as possible.  

[Ozent]

Just now, Aquasurge said:

the solution for the whole "limbo nuke" issue is easily fixed if the enemies on the collapse of cataclysm didn't count towards the 10 energy per kill while in the rift passive limbo has. this should prevent spamming and hence give incentive to keep cataclysm active for as long as possible.  

I'm pretty sure there's a video about this, iirc it doesnt give energy when closing the cataclysm

[(PSN)mahoshonenfox]

5 hours ago, Kei-Inc. said:

Get rid of the energy regen when killing enemies in the rift to help balance cataclysm a little

That might actually be the simplest solution. He already gains 2 energy per second while in the rift. Maybe he shouldn't gain 10 more energy for each kill since that excess energy surplus is gonna be likely used on Cataclysm spam anyway. It might also encourage people to use Surge and Banish combos more than just pulling enemies in the rift with Cataclysm all the time... Maybe...

[xaverius666]

Lmao, catalysm in high level useless to nuke except at infested content. 

[(PSN)mahoshonenfox]

3 hours ago, -N7-Leonhart said:

"Let's put 10%, I am sure it won't be OP and won't turn into the new meta". - famous last words.

Now seriously, I can't imagine the Devs didn't realize this is OP as F across the board of levels. Then, what exactly was their plan? Draw attention to Limbo before nerfing him back in line?

Either way, the more it stays this way, the more the situation will deteriorate, fast. I see ppl everywhere using very low duration builds on Cataclysm, since it's a fast, wide and powerful nuke, nothing more you could want.

I would say a fast and resolute response to this would prevent a lot of the damage from the players having invested time and effort into Limbo. My own suggestion would be to make like 2-3% instead of 10% and make it scale with STR (as now it doesn't).

Cataclysm is perfect as it is. The problem is its synergy with his 2nd passive where he gains 10 energy for each enemy killed in the rift. Whenever he casts Cataclysm and it kills a bunch of enemies, he gains energy for using the ability instead of losing energy. This encourages people to spam it. What kind of nuke in the game makes you gain energy for using it instead of losing energy? That's the only thing I think is wrong with it. Something this powerful should only be used sparingly.

[ZodiacShinryu]

I, personally, don't mind that Limbo's Cataclysm has the scaling it does. In fact, I think that all the frames could have their signature offensive power deal some form of scaling damage.

However, I don't understand why the decision was made in the first place since Mag's rework of Polarize had this very aspect removed for this very purpose. And even then Limbo's power works on everything (if you deal with certain caveats) while Mag only leveraged shield users.

My personal stance of scaling is a smaller percentage Scale Damage in addition to some flat damage. For example: Cata could deal 10% of affected enemies Max Health + some flat damage (that could possibly scale with the number of enemies affected). This gives it a base effectiveness that will effectively keep it nuke in low to mid levels while eventually no longer providing instant kills the higher you go. But even infinitely it would require no more than 10 casts (provided no healing) to kill any given target at any level. Scaling Damage could be limited against certain enemies as well (basically boss class enemies).

[(XBOX)Brainlessbob18]

(Xbox1) I really want this rework. Any ETA on when consoles get the patch??

[(PSN)scinut71]

3 minutes ago, (Xbox One)Brainlessbob18 said:

(Xbox1) I really want this rework. Any ETA on when consoles get the patch??

You don't want it in its current state. It wouldn't pass certification for Microsoft or Sony. It is full of bugs that are really affecting gameplay. Like game crashes and not getting Octavia parts.

[JalakBali]

14 hours ago, Xardis said:

And Mag's 2. Ow and whole Nidus. And Daynox's 4. And Nekros's 4.

There are loads of scaling abilities. I dont think we should have less, I want more. Limbo'4 wont one shot everything in cata range most of the time. It kills weaker enemies while bombard and gunners survive.

Not singling you out, just replying to the many posts here about powers they think that are broken but actually not.

Mag's 2 requires aiming and positioning, You do not spam it to achieve the maximum result.

Nidus (as well as Equinox) requires building up and using it expend your build up, though through different degrees. Nyx's 4 is even worse because there's a cap with the damage depending on your energy and the energy spent is not on par with the final damage.

Nova's 2 requires aiming and also building up, not to mention it's slow so you cannot spam it.

Valkyr's 4 is the silliest thing to complain about because though you're unkillable, you need to actually play the game (like, you know, moving and actively attacking things) to achieve anything.

Nekros' 4 though scales, it's too unreliable since you can't direct the shadows to do specific things.

 

A lot of these are comparing apples and oranges. Mag's old 2 was nerfed because it is too much damage for non-active gameplay power. The same with Ash's old 4. They did the same thing to Excal's old Radial Javelin and Saryn's old 4. Things don't get nerfed just because they "scale" or "do too much damage". They most often nerf things because it encourages passive gameplay, like sitting in a spot while blind spamming a single button. Just like they nerfed Simulor and Telos Boltace.

[Fallen_Echo]

4 hours ago, Buzkyl said:

Cataclsym isn't likely going to get nerf because it's powerful

Its probably going to get nerfed because it's being abused. Players who abuse it are the same that when it's inevitably nerfed will move onto the next AoE nuker frame.

The same who will say "Limbo is now useless" because h can no longer mass cataclysm spam, players like that play the frame for the meta, not for the frame itself.

It will become useless.

DE is not known for precise tweakings, they will change in a way that limbo will be put back to the heap of useless stuff we have.

But if you think that wouldnt happen then tell me when was the last time you seen the telos boltace or the tonkor ingame (used by people who know about the nerfs).

[dopey_opi]

This Limbo rework, and the subsequent surge in Limbo players, has me avoiding matchmaking and only taking solo missions or missions where frames are agreed upon ahead of time, like Law of Retribution.  I'm not the only person doing this either.  I see a lot of argument that giving Limbo high versatility is just the same as giving Nova or Ember high versatility but it's quite different in that Nova and Ember do not directly affect the squad.  Imagine if Nova's molecular prime also molecular primed the other Tenno - you'd be hearing a cacaphony of rage against Nova because she was intruding on the play of other players.  This is exactly what Limbo does.  'Oh, but you can roll out of the rift'.  1. i shouldn't even have to do that and 2. not when he's cast Cataclysm large enough to cover two whole tiles (didn't Nova get nerfed for something similar way back when?)

Before, Limbos were rare in the party.  I saw them as annoying but not overly problematic because they were few and far between.  See them every now and then on Kela De Thaym sorties, Kuva floods, and there wasn't anything wrong with that.  Now they're everywhere.  You can't escape meeting them and when you do, you can't escape from being forced into the rift again, and again, and again.  And it's making me play Warframe less, because it's really hard to enjoy a co-op game when you're almost always stuck with someone in the squad who's directly hindering your ability to do anything.

[EinheriarJudith]

3 minutes ago, dopey_opi said:

This Limbo rework, and the subsequent surge in Limbo players, has me avoiding matchmaking and only taking solo missions or missions where frames are agreed upon ahead of time, like Law of Retribution.  I'm not the only person doing this either.  I see a lot of argument that giving Limbo high versatility is just the same as giving Nova or Ember high versatility but it's quite different in that Nova and Ember do not directly affect the squad.  Imagine if Nova's molecular prime also molecular primed the other Tenno - you'd be hearing a cacaphony of rage against Nova because she was intruding on the play of other players.  This is exactly what Limbo does.  'Oh, but you can roll out of the rift'.  1. i shouldn't even have to do that and 2. not when he's cast Cataclysm large enough to cover two whole tiles (didn't Nova get nerfed for something similar way back when?)

Before, Limbos were rare in the party.  I saw them as annoying but not overly problematic because they were few and far between.  See them every now and then on Kela De Thaym sorties, Kuva floods, and there wasn't anything wrong with that.  Now they're everywhere.  You can't escape meeting them and when you do, you can't escape from being forced into the rift again, and again, and again.  And it's making me play Warframe less, because it's really hard to enjoy a co-op game when you're almost always stuck with someone in the squad who's directly hindering your ability to do anything.

many of us have been saying this and the response it seems is "im a limbo main learn what the rift is and how to play around it" i laugh every time but it doesnt change the fact that limbo is intrusive just like you described. 

[JalakBali]

Simple fix: the Cataclysm "bomb" (collapsing Cataclysm to trigger, which I'll call Catabomb) must be built up, by the number of enemies killed in the Rift. It could be built to a stack of 5, each stack requires 5 killed enemies killed to form. Enemies killed by the Cata-bomb does not count, they have to be killed by other means, and it doesn't have to be Limbo doing it, just that they have to die inside the Rift. Maybe call the stack "Rift Overload" or something. So Cata-bomb would still be powerful but there must be active killing inside the rift for it to trigger, breaking up the monotony of just spamming Cata-bomb.