[Update 20] Limbo Revisited Feedback Megathread

[Music4Therapy]

First, a list of issues with the frame and a summary of him. Then, a list of proposed solutions.

1) A frame with his defensive capabilities should not have that much offensive potential. He does too much way to well. He is a jack of all trades, master of a few. He also scales infinitely both offensively and defensively, only 3 other frames do so: Ivara, Ash, and Wukong. Ivara and Ash can avoid taking damage through stealth and can abuse Covert Lethality. Wukong has Defy and can also abuse CL. The issue here is that Limbo can apply his infinitely scaling defensive capabilities to allies/objectives and his infinitely scaling offense is applied in a massive radius. Take away the scaling from his 4 and he is still top tier due to his defensive capabilities and the fact his 2 (stasis) allows status effects to last infinitely (been abusing slash proc based builds using that method). He also has amazing CC. Basically, his kit is overloaded.

2) In addition to the above, his energy regen is absurd. 2 energy per second in the rift and the 10 energy provided by enemy kills is too much in conjunction with the raw killing potential of his 4. You can either keep his 4 the same or take away the energy gain from kills to balance this.

3) In addition to his infinite scaling in both aspects of offense and defense and near infinite self sustaining capabilities, his abilities require no build up. For example, it takes time and/or teamwork to build damage for a comparable ability to Cataclysm; Equinox's Maim or Nova's 2. Limbo, however, can just press 4 twice quickly and he has wiped a room full of enemies from existence.

 

This is coming for the aspect of an endurance player, no matter what level the enemies are Limbo will destroy the infested without retaliation. He is able to prevent the Grineer from doing anything and kill them with slash procs that last infinitely via the use of his 2. His Cataclysm damage nullifier bubbles and absolutely wrecks the whole corpus faction. The only time a skilled Limbo player has a chance of dying is against the corrupted, and even then with Naramon school that chance of death goes away. 

How would I go about fixing this? I'd do one or a combination of 4 things:

1) Remove the scaling damage from his 4 so his offensive potential isn't so insane.

2) Remove the energy gain from killing enemies to prevent Cataclysm spam.

3) Make his Cataclysm end prematurely/explode if more than X amount of enemies are inside of it. This would allow him to maintain his offensive potential at the cost of his defensive potential. It would be a trade off.

4) Do a combination of the above but give the old damage multiplier from his 3 back, but merge it with his Cataclysm so that while in the Rift/his Cataclysm is up his damage is given a multiplier of X

[SDGDen]

sigh.... first it was "ermagerd buff limbo he's useless" and now its "ermagerd nerf limbo hes to good"

 

could people just leave limbo alone? he was good in his old state, he's still good in his new state, and if you spam cataclysm you basically waste 75% of limbo's potential.

 

 

[Syndrella]

If the abilities non scale then it wll be much worser. Other frames needs also scaling abilities.

[Music4Therapy]

You know, it'd be amazing if people actually read the post prior to commenting.

His rework was just released, it's natural for changes of this size to not be perfectly balanced upon release. These are just my proposed fixes to issues that exist.

Edited April 7, 2017 by Music4Therapy

[-MElHiOR-]

TS, just dont play Limbo, if you dont like it. Its WAAAAY better solution, then just screaming: "OMG! ITS IMBO! PLZ NERF IT!"

[Ozent]

Seeing as the 10% is of current hp, not max hp, they could try something like 40% current hp of each seperate unit. Taking 10% from every unit within a huge cata coukd wipe them all if there are 10 enemies+, but applying 40% to each unit seperately would set them each to 60% health from 100. Otherwise, as it is not % max hp, it's kinda fine as it is right now, maybe nerf it a bit to 5~7% letting it scale with power strength, making overextended create a negative effect.

[13QZXXTTX]

3 hours ago, Xekrin said:

LOL, yeah it works fine but whats really fun is having to roll 5 times in less than a minute while standing actually trying to shoot a group or melee attacking.  So great.

Of course this is all moot because its rare now to see a limbo using his 1st ability, its just 4 - 4 - 4 - 4 - 4 - 4.

Most Frames first ability are nice. 

So I had to read Limbo's Ability description again. And I am thinking "Ghost-Frame", Anyway, a nice First and Second ability combine, to make room for another ability that can "toggle" like Nekros 3 Desecrate would be handy. Maybe worst, is when enemy released from the Rift Plane are Tenno-corrupted aka "possesed" for a fixed time and freeze in place. 

Just some thoughts.

[Music4Therapy]

2 minutes ago, Ozent said:

Seeing as the 10% is of current hp, not max hp, they could try something like 40% current hp of each seperate unit. Taking 10% from every unit within a huge cata coukd wipe them all if there are 10 enemies+, but applying 40% to each unit seperately would set them each to 60% health from 100. Otherwise, as it is not % max hp, it's kinda fine as it is right now, maybe nerf it a bit to 5~7% letting it scale with power strength, making overextended create a negative effect.

I would agree with this. I still don't like that a frame that scales infinitely defensively has so much offensive potential.

But if he doesn't get changed, I'm fine with that has well. Been abusing the hell out of him in endless missions to max out all my gear at the expense of the fun of my squadmates. Many people abandon squad after a couple waves of defense. 

If this isn't anti-fun, idk what is.

[Ozent]

2 hours ago, achromos said:

Limbo has a additional passive.  When a enemy dies In his rift he regains energy.  Enemies Dying from dropping the rift applies to this.

Read re6ellion's post. Limbo leaves the rift simultaniously to cata closing, so it doesnt apply (anymore) I guess. I'll test it out later when I get back from school.

[Sakatchi]

Hes good now, deal with it.

Here's another thing, this is the classic "4 masher finds a way to mash 4, and get people mad" type of thing.

You do not fix this by nerfing things. 4 mashers will find other ways to murder things with a button press.

And you certainly do not want to get rid of scaling, since level 100+ things are not going away, and the devs wont fix armor scaling.

Speaking of armor, Limbo scales off of health and shields, so he does in fact have a counter, and a very large one.

Not only that, he doesn't have 'infinite scaling defenses' hes straight up immune in the rift, but thing is, you need to leave your rift to void things.

At higher levels you catch a bullet, you will die, so that's a balance too.

Moreover, to have 'infinite scaling damage' or whatever, he requires a augment, so he has to mod around it, and typical 4 spammers have bad duration on their banish and stasis due to negative duration.

 

[bl4ckhunter]

10 hours ago, Souldend78 said:

Saryn Miasma was never ground breaking, considering it was the shortest (or still is?) aoe ability in game.
Yet, it didn't stopped forum, nor DE from changing it, due to spammability.

Let us not kid ourselves here now, miasma was "nerfed" becouse it made draco farming too easy and de was afraid that it enchroached on booster sales. 

[Pro3Display]

1 hour ago, low1991 said:

It's depends on how you read it. But ya, it's what i'm trying to say/post.

If DE stop listening to QQ (which is in forum & also considered as somewhat a feedback), DE worn't be improving their own game much. *Same for the 2nd part*

Sounds logical if i were to put a "chicken or the egg come" first logic/concept?

by don't listen i mean "stop nerfing everything people whine about" and solve actual problems.

because from patch to patch it's just an increasing pile of bandaids.

and i don't want warframe to turn into a rotten mummy

 

recent weapon pass was a nice start,  all be it i don't agree with everything they changed

Edited April 7, 2017 by Pro3Display

[Ozent]

3 hours ago, -N7-Leonhart said:

"Anyone can murder Corpus and Infested"? You make absolutely no sense. Sure, anyone can murder Corrupted and Grineer too. Of course, if you really fail to see the problem with Limbo, then there is nothing to discuss as I know nothing I say will make you see things otherwise. Limbo right now is anything but balanced. 2 pushes of a button and everything around him dies. Throw in come CP auras and all 4 factions will stand no chance.

Ever tried cataclysming a group with an ancient in the middle? Doesnt work. 

Limbo as of now can do basically everything better than other frames.

Stasis is better than frost bubble when comboed with cata,

Going into rift makes you invincible,

Scaling damage that has no requirement unlike nidus,

Rift torrent mod allowing you to reach crazy numbers

He does havedrawbacks at the points though.

Banish being like it is now, and stasis essentially disabling primaries and secondaries, rift torrent losing damage with each kill, rift being unable to hack consoles, even within cataclysm. <- that is cata's drawback right now. Cata % damage should be set at 4% scaling with power strength, capping out at 10. This would make overextended make cata only do 2.4% current health, and you would need to take over 200% power strength to reach the 10% again, and this build would have to lose effiency, duration, and range in exchange for power I believe.

 

[Music4Therapy]

14 minutes ago, Sakatchi said:

Hes good now, deal with it.

Here's another thing, this is the classic "4 masher finds a way to mash 4, and get people mad" type of thing.

You do not fix this by nerfing things. 4 mashers will find other ways to murder things with a button press.

And you certainly do not want to get rid of scaling, since level 100+ things are not going away, and the devs wont fix armor scaling.

Speaking of armor, Limbo scales off of health and shields, so he does in fact have a counter, and a very large one.

Not only that, he doesn't have 'infinite scaling defenses' hes straight up immune in the rift, but thing is, you need to leave your rift to void things.

At higher levels you catch a bullet, you will die, so that's a balance too.

Moreover, to have 'infinite scaling damage' or whatever, he requires a augment, so he has to mod around it, and typical 4 spammers have bad duration on their banish and stasis due to negative duration.

 

I am a Limbo player and am abusing the hell out of his broken state. I am also capable of acknowledging that he is broken.

No nuking press-4-to-win frame has ever had anywhere near Limbo's defensive capabilities, and balance issues should be addressed on a per frame basis in accordance with their kit. For example, if Limbo was not capable of defending objectives so well and his main purpose was offense like old-Saryn I wouldn't have as much of an issue.

Finally, the rest of your post is so riddled with contradictions such as "he doesn't have 'infinite scaling defenses' hes straight up immune in the rift" and idiotic statements such as "Speaking of armor, Limbo scales off of health and shields, so he does in fact have a counter, and a very large one." (haven't you ever heard of 4xCP? Or the fact his stasis causes his finisher-damage slash procs to last infinitely?) frankly makes me question your game knowledge and will refrain from further conversation with you if more false, contradictory statements are made.

Edited April 7, 2017 by Music4Therapy

[Fallen_Echo]

1 hour ago, chaotea said:

People still want to be able to take actions while in the rift though. Also, as allies have to enter the rift via the tear now, its not a big issue. If you mean cataclysm, i dont think you can leave the rift while inside its area anyway.

If i read the notes right, banish now has a cone aoe. You can be banished just because you are too close to a group of target enemies, but still its annoying. This feels like having a volt with you mashing his speed skill randomly.

Another good way to do it is to let allies damage enemies in the rift. Maybe for 50% weapon damage what scales with strenght or something.

[Ozent]

21 minutes ago, Music4Therapy said:

I would agree with this. I still don't like that a frame that scales infinitely defensively has so much offensive potential.

But if he doesn't get changed, I'm fine with that has well. Been abusing the hell out of him in endless missions to max out all my gear at the expense of the fun of my squadmates. Many people abandon squad after a couple waves of defense. 

If this isn't anti-fun, idk what is.

Pretty sure cata only gives affinity to your frame, as do all other kills from frame powers, so not sure how you're maxing gear.

 

[DeMonkey]

4 hours ago, (PS4)salovel1991 said:

I've seen Russian, Brazilian, French, Polish, and recently Portugese I think. It was impossible to tell what they were saying or typing. So me trying to direct anything at them would be like talking to a wall. I happened to be Limbo. He stepped in front of my banish target. He messaged me with "fdp" no idea what that means, I messaged him back "Roll to cancel?". His response "FDP!". Considering this game is spread across continents I think a few little icons at the bottom for Volt and Limbo at least wouldn't break anything. 

I wouldn't worry about it, CoolD2108 thinks everyone plays on the US servers and hasn't considered that the reason some people run into non-English speaking European people is because they're playing in Europe.

It's just minor trolling, they haven't actually commented on the topic at hand, they just want to have an argument with someone.

[Music4Therapy]

5 minutes ago, Ozent said:

Pretty sure cata only gives affinity to your frame, as do all other kills from frame powers, so not sure how you're maxing gear.

 

Mispoke. I enter pubs with a clan mate or 2, they watch me blow up everything on the map for ~25-30 waves of defense or 2k cryotic in excavation. Many times pub mates leave early upon seeing the strat.

"

• Be near an allied Tenno when they kill an enemy. When within 50 meters of an ally when they kill an enemy, you gain the same total Affinity, split according to your own weaponry. This doesn't reduce the Affinity gained by the killing player, and doesn't reduce the Affinity gained by other nearby allies. This does not apply to Archwing mode as it has much larger ranges for shared affinity

 

"

Edited April 7, 2017 by Music4Therapy

[Darkuhn]

1 hour ago, -N7-Leonhart said:

It should be like 1% at max size and grow to 10% at min size, or something like that, since at max size you have more enemies for damage.

I meant it like this:

0%         Powerrange = 20% dmg

100%     Powerrange = 10% dmg

199%     Powerrange = 1% dmg

200+%   Powerrange = 0,5% dmg

with this Cataclysm would be more useful as arena/defensbubble or punctual nuke. Which would allow more team play and would annoy other player less.

Also the +10 Energy/Enemy killed by Cataclysm has to go. Maybe deactivate this part of his passiv entirely while Cataclysm is in effect.

 

[Xekrin]

39 minutes ago, SupremeDutchGamer said:

first it was "ermagerd buff limbo he's useless" and now its "ermagerd nerf limbo hes to good"

Believe it or not there is a middle ground between 'niche frame that only a few can play well' and 'zomfg 4-4 everything in 50meters dies instantly powerful'.  If you cannot admit they went overboard on his abilities, that's your problem.

39 minutes ago, SupremeDutchGamer said:

could people just leave limbo alone?

Nope, sure can't.  Not until the aforementioned middle ground is found.  Isn't it better to try to get there now rather than waiting 2+ more years letting Limbo be the god of everything and all until they finally decide to nerf him into the ground like they did so many others?

Once its done, it'll be over, people will move on.  He can still be a fantastic frame without being completely immortal infinitely while also having the capacity for full scale annihilation of everything with a double tap.

If you or anyone else do not wish to even attempt to help find said middle ground you're just wasting everyone's time.

[Music4Therapy]

6 minutes ago, Xekrin said:

Believe it or not there is a middle ground between 'niche frame that only a few can play well' and 'zomfg 4-4 everything in 50meters dies instantly powerful'.  If you cannot admit they went overboard on his abilities, that's your problem.

Nope, sure can't.  Not until the aforementioned middle ground is found.  Isn't it better to try to get there now rather than waiting 2+ more years letting Limbo be the god of everything and all until they finally decide to nerf him into the ground like they did so many others?

Once its done, it'll be over, people will move on.  He can still be a fantastic frame without being completely immortal infinitely while also having the capacity for full scale annihilation of everything with a double tap.

If you or anyone else do not wish to even attempt to help find said middle ground you're just wasting everyone's time.

What is your opinion on the changes I proposed at the bottom?

[Ozent]

3 minutes ago, Music4Therapy said:

Mispoke. I enter pubs with a clan mate or 2, they watch me blow up everything on the map for ~25-30 waves of defense or 2k cryotic in excavation. Many times pub mates leave early upon seeing the strat.

"

• Be near an allied Tenno when they kill an enemy. When within 50 meters of an ally when they kill an enemy, you gain the same total Affinity, split according to your own weaponry. This doesn't reduce the Affinity gained by the killing player, and doesn't reduce the Affinity gained by other nearby allies. This does not apply to Archwing mode as it has much larger ranges for shared affinity

 

"

Oh, maxing other peoples gear.

[Music4Therapy]

1 minute ago, Ozent said:

Oh, maxing other peoples gear.

The focus is amazing as well.

[Darkuhn]

Another idea to change Cataclysm

I leave this here

[Kotsender_Quasimir]

49 minutes ago, -MElHiOR- said:

TS, just dont play Limbo, if you dont like it. Its WAAAAY better solution, then just screaming: "OMG! ITS IMBO! PLZ NERF IT!"

while i completely disagree: have a +1 for "IMBO"... rl chuckle :)