[Update 20] Limbo Revisited Feedback Megathread

[DonOctavia]

Hi all i did a 1h survial with limbo here are results:

Map was Grineer fissure survial.

Team: max range Limbo (me Mr23) - Nidus (Mr 20) - Nekros (Mr 23) - Ash Prime (Mr 12)

 

(at 20 minutes at 40 minutes at 60 minutes)

Damage Dealt

              Limbo                              Nidus                           Nekros                           Ash Prime
      20%  20%  14%                  22%  25%  31%             36%  43%  49%             22%  11%  7%

Damage Taken

              Limbo                              Nidus                           Nekros                           Ash Prime
      26%  29%  26%                  29%  28%  30%             14%  12%  21%             31%  31%  23%

Total Kills

              Limbo                              Nidus                           Nekros                           Ash Prime
      301  594  793                    303  692  1110               508  1158  1802              329  526  629

Headshot Kills

              Limbo                              Nidus                           Nekros                           Ash Prime
              0  0 0                                4  6  6                          11  11  11                           1  1  1

Meele Kills

              Limbo                              Nidus                           Nekros                           Ash Prime
         37  108  127                       1  31  113                   271  921  1564                  257  432  533

Abilities used

              Limbo                              Nidus                           Nekros                           Ash Prime
          73  171  301                   141  332  559                     2  6  11                           24  38  63

Fire Accuracy

              Limbo                              Nidus                           Nekros                           Ash Prime
          0%  0%  0%                     0%  0%  0%                    0%  0% 71%                   25%  33%  44%

Revives

              Limbo                              Nidus                           Nekros                           Ash Prime
              0  0  1                              0  1  4                              0  1  7                               0  0  0

 

I realy tried to be the best in squad with limbo and less meele. Only used meele against Nullifer.
Limbo needs many enemys around him to deal damage. If u think 10 enemy are enough to one hit i can just say no u are wrong.
If u think 20 enemys are enough i can only say no thats also wrong. Limbo needs more. Maybe 30. On what map do u ve got 30 or more
enemys in one room? If ur squad is also fighting even less then 10?  Limbo can kill some yes but he is not a godlike frame.

I could not use stasis cz Nullifiers destroyed cataclysm before i could press 3. Thats a big problem. If there a re nullifiers around his cc will not work for.
This needs a tweak. Nullifiers should only nullify inside there bubble.

This is a report from real gaming in 1h of survial mission on fissure Grinneer.
 

[BladeRambler]

Absolutely awesome, thank you DE! As a long-time Limbo player, I love the rework and the new versatility of his abilities.

My only feedback would be to take a harder look at Cataclysm, specifically to cut down on the Cataclysm nukers. Those that repeatedly press 4 to win for the entire mission are giving all us Limbo players a bad name by taking away the fun for the rest of the squad, as a max range Limbo can blast a significant portion of the map in all directions constantly.

I'm not sure how best to achieve this, since I think the Cataclysm mechanics upon collapse are helpful sometimes. Perhaps if manually closing cataclysm cost some energy as well, then that might cut down on the use of #4 ability and force Tenno to use Cataclysm as the true last resort (or to keep it open until naturally collapsing). Apologies if this has already been discussed (can't go through 2K posts here right now).

[-CM-NineFingers]

19 hours ago, RedDirtTrooper said:

You are entirely incorrect, and I find your comment offensive. This forum exists for feedback, so kindly take your judgmental comments about whining and your false assumptions and keep them to yourself.  I've been playing this game since the summer of 2013. I understand the rift perfectly well and I still routinely find myself firing at things that are in the rift while I'm out of it, out of the rift while I'm in it, in the rift with me but suddenly in stasis. I understand exactly what is going on, and I respond accordingly, pick a different target, roll out of the rift, melee the stasis target, whatever. But it doesn't ever stop being absolutely, obnoxiously annoying. I never find myself in side a stasis cataclysm and think "YAY!". No, I sigh. Find myself suddenly banished, sigh. Find the enemies I'm engaging banished, sigh. It's annoying for someone who knows exactly what's going on, so it must be a full blown nightmare for players who don't. All for what benefits? CC? Sure, with the massive cost of being unable to use 2/3rds of my weapons. I could bring any other CC frame instead and still use my guns. Energy Regen? I have Zenurik and pizza. Energy management is something I have already planned for ahead of time making the additional rift regen redundant. Not a single one of the "benefits" a Limbo offers is worth the annoyance of playing with one, but you don't have any rebuttal for that, or you wouldn't have resorted to saying I "don't understand how the rift works and the benefits of it" or calling my feedback whining.

sure pal, be offended if you want to. But you're forgetting the fact that cataclysm creates a safe environment for squishy frames, lets every one use his powers (they do work between dimensions, ya know) and doesn't prevent you from using your guns (ya know, when it gets deactivated the bullets will fly to the enemies, call it magic if you want, and who cares if they're already dead).

I say you're whining because you disregard all positive aspects of an ability to be louder on the bad aspects that, I agree, NEED to change. So, kindly, take your "I'm offended" and your cherry picking and keep them to yourself. In order to give a valid point, you must take all facts, not only the ones that favour your point of view. If you look back on this thread, you will see many valid arguments for and against this exact matter, side to side with different posibilities to change it without making limbo unusable. Your comment had nothing of the sorts, you didn't give a single valid rework option that wouldn't make the frame unusable, for the delight of those who don't like it., just whined about how horrible it is. Yes, atm, it IS horrible, that's why the feedback should be constructive criticism, and not cherry picked aspects. When you only complain about how broken and intrusive it is, you're not helping to solve the issue, just push a frame closer to the edge of the massive nerf, that would render him unusable. They are not going to revert the rework, these things cost money.

On the other hand, I apologize for my rudeness. Lots of people are just blindly bashing this frame (incidently, I don't have even a 20% of time played with it despite carrying the name, and I also suffered the effects while playing other frames, I just don't find them that horrible), some of them even demanding it to be completely removed, and I had a burst.

[(PSN)Seabastion25]

How about having a default timer to ally bullets like 3 to 2 seconds that way ally bullets aren't frozen in stasis for x amount of second. The default time won't be affected by duration mods. This would make stasis team friendly. 

[PsiWarp]

4 minutes ago, (PS4)Seabastion25 said:

How about having a default timer to ally bullets like 3 to 2 seconds that way ally bullets aren't frozen in stasis for x amount of second. The default time won't be affected by duration mods. This would make stasis team friendly. 

Honestly, since Stasis is basically Za Warudo, this would be a good idea. It would be super cool (and functional) at the same time.

Like in this gif for example, the daggers would travel for a second or two before coming to a full stop, and while they travel they can still damage enemies. Allies just have to move into close range to use gunfire and projectiles to kill stuff, or screw it and go all out melee.

[DonOctavia]

Dont think this will help. As long as projectiles stop wich is a pre nerf done by de to make stasis weaker player will always call to nerf limbo´s stasis. If statis will not stop projectiles de will nerf it in some way as they did before releasing limbo. Accept Limbo or not but his power is rift mastery. 

[-CM-NineFingers]

55 minutes ago, (PS4)Seabastion25 said:

How about having a default timer to ally bullets like 3 to 2 seconds that way ally bullets aren't frozen in stasis for x amount of second. The default time won't be affected by duration mods. This would make stasis team friendly. 

I think that's the best idea so far. Keeps stasis as it is, but adds team utility.

P.S.: In B4 people complain about self damaging weapons

[(PSN)psycofang]

1 hour ago, -CM-Limbo said:

and I had a burst.

We all do, dont worry.

[DEATHLOK]

10 hours ago, (PS4)psycofang said:

Dont build up an enemy you have no proof exists..

LOL. You are so funny.

[(PSN)Seabastion25]

2 hours ago, DonOctane said:

Dont think this will help. As long as projectiles stop wich is a pre nerf done by de to make stasis weaker player will always call to nerf limbo´s stasis. If statis will not stop projectiles de will nerf it in some way as they did before releasing limbo. Accept Limbo or not but his power is rift mastery. 

Its all about feedback and coming up with ideas. I mean if players are complaining about stasis stopping their bullets how about ally bullets are stopped only for 3,2, or 1 second. The default time that ally bullets are stopped won't be affected by duration mods therefore team friendly stasis. I do understand that limbo is a master of the rift but it felt like he was missing another part to his cc. Now that he has stasis, which fits him and his power over the rift, he won't be so easily killed in the rift.

[DonOctavia]

7 hours ago, BladeRambler said:

Spoiler

Absolutely awesome, thank you DE! As a long-time Limbo player, I love the rework and the new versatility of his abilities.

My only feedback would be to take a harder look at Cataclysm, specifically to cut down on the Cataclysm nukers. Those that repeatedly press 4 to win for the entire mission are giving all us Limbo players a bad name by taking away the fun for the rest of the squad, as a max range Limbo can blast a significant portion of the map in all directions constantly.

.....

I'm not sure how best to achieve this, since I think the Cataclysm mechanics upon collapse are helpful sometimes. Perhaps if manually closing cataclysm cost some energy as well,

....

Spoiler

then that might cut down on the use of #4 ability and force Tenno to use Cataclysm as the true last resort (or to keep it open until naturally collapsing). Apologies if this has already been discussed (can't go through 2K posts here right now).

 

Best Solution so far. Lets give that a try. Limbo will still have his power.

Spaming will be set down to limit.

[DonOctavia]

Lets think of: What if manually closing cataclym will cost same or half energy amount as on activating it?

It will be expensive to end it manually. It will not be used as a spam power.

all are happy ... k then .. lets patch ;) 

 

[(PSN)VaDeR81]

I can understand the frustration with limbo being intrusive. As a limbo I've gotten complaints from people about my cata not allowing item pickup or an accidental banish happening etc. That's why I have my clan mates or just groups of friends that I play with who know limbo and appreciated me using him. At the end of day, whether he needs to be rebalanced or not, you choose to play with rando's. You make that choice. You say I want three other teammates who I don't know who may make it easier or harder for me. The same why I did as the limbo player, and had to deal with the complaints. Now I don't. You don't have to either. Now whatever DE does we all will have to live with and that's fine, but there's always four options for game play for a reason. 

[(XBOX)CannyJack]

Well now that I've gotten a chance to try the new Limbo, it turns out that the new movement triggered Rift walk is the mess I guessed it would be. 

If they'd fix one thing--have it activate while standing still, as well as while moving, and have it NOT activate in a midair roll, I'd be much happier. But for now, limbo goes in the hangar. 

Hell, they can leave the midair roll if they'd just be consistent with it, and have it activate on every roll command. 

 

Edit: wait. They appear to have broken the standing-still roll for everyone. Great. 

Edited April 18, 2017 by (XB1)CannyJack

[(PSN)mahoshonenfox]

I think I have a suggestion to cap his Cataclysm's damage reasonably among other things. Make it so Cataclysm does not scale off of Range mods. Its apparently not very strong if you can only fit several enemies in there and it kind of limits the intrusion of Stasis because the bubble is fixed at 100% max range.

[dreadgame]

Just in case this isn't mentioned yet; limbo got nerfed in couple ways in who knows which hotfix:

1.) Stasis stop enemy bullets now from the outside of the rift to you in the rift or outside of cataclysm  to inside. This means more chance of instant death in high level crowds due to stasis overloading.

2.) Corpus black skating dude with powerful guns can now pull you away from the rift just like nullifiers.

 

[PsiWarp]

It would be great if Limbo can see the Banish timers on his allies that walked through portals. Lets him know who is in the Rift and who is not, since the visuals on rift-bound allies is subtle.

[(PSN)psycofang]

3 hours ago, (PS4)mahoshonenfox said:

I think I have a suggestion to cap his Cataclysm's damage reasonably among other things. Make it so Cataclysm does not scale off of Range mods. Its apparently not very strong if you can only fit several enemies in there and it kind of limits the intrusion of Stasis because the bubble is fixed at 100% max range.

 

That hurts a number of other builds including 2 of his augs.

 

Just tie it to power strength of 200% and cap it at 10% max. 

Or tie it to cataclysm self detonation x time enemies were in the rift.

Or an increasing DoT based off of power strength relative to hp % of X% per second. Like 2% max hp per second or 3% which in a 30s build leaves them with 40% left on 2% or 10% left on 3%.

 

4-5% is overkill.

[evilblu]

On Fri Mar 24 2017 at 3:11 PM, LonewolfSOC said:

Using Roll for entering and exiting the Rift is kinda rubbish. In this fast-paced game Maneuvers especially Rolling is mandatory.

Me and I bet A LOT of people dont want to enter and exit the rift each time they roll with Limbo.

Tbh you should revisit this idea for the "Rifting"

Yo so you think that rolling is better than going in the rift energy free might i add. Lets say this i prefer not to roll if it means intstant immunity and at no energy cost. It helps more than you think. Instead of dodging bullets i can just dash into my rift. Only real prob i see is how other limbos effect each other if there is a limbtroll ( aka limbo troll )and puts up a rift i can be hurt by the enemies he has banished it kinda sucks i was in a game with 3 limbos talk about annoying. 

[Evanescent]

QoL change:

Closing the rift no longer unrifts Limbo.

Scaling changes:

Cataclysm no longer is able to immediately apply the total portion of enemy health as damage when it closes.

Each enemy in the rift plane 'feeds' or charges the rift with its health over a duration such as 5s, one by one. Only after the rift has completely been charged with it can it's health be used as damage by Limbo. Prematurely spamming the ability results in the base damage of cataclysm.

Enemies rifted by cataclysm charge faster.

What this means:

Cataclysm retains its nuking power, but becomes more costly and precious to build up the damage and use like Nidus and his stacks. It also become significantly less spammy, which is the main problem with the ability at the moment.

Essentially, Enemy health is added to cataclysm's damage as it does now but over time instead of instantly.

Factors affecting health charge:

Power strength affects how many enemies are charged at once, and the percentage of their health that is absorbed, with the minimum being one and health absorption being 10%, at below 100% power strength.

Power duration inversely affects how fast the charging takes place, i.e. the more duration you have the quicker you get to finish charging each enemy.

Synergies:

Stasis stabilizes and slows the shrinking of the Cataclysm bubble.

Rift Surge destabilizes and speeds up the decay of the bubble, but speeds up the charging.

[Xekrin]

10 minutes ago, Evanescent said:

Each enemy in the rift plane 'feeds' or charges the rift with its health over a duration such as 5s

I like the overall concept, but dislike the flat duration thing, even with mods increasing it.  I'd much rather see it affected much like this except in a manner functionally similar to how Maim works.  Basically damage done by allies and oneself increases damage done by the cataclysm.

It doesn't feel very interactive otherwise.  Just hit 4, hit 2, wait x seconds, hit 4.  Something needs to change with stasis too that makes it more integral than merely stopping everything (rendering your squad useless) before slamming cataclysm down and blowing everything up. 

But I reckon that's a topic for another time, once cataclysm is actually fixed.

[(XBOX)CannyJack]

I have two objections to the replacement of rolling: one is "moral," so to speak. The other is mechanical. 

First, the ability to walk in the Rift is an essential power of Limbos. It's not some sideline passive - he has on-demand energy-regenerating invulnerability now. This ability was once considered by DE to be significant enough to be a power all on its own. It still is that significant, but I somehow doubt that DE is going to go back through the frames and make all of their second powers free, energy-regen abilities triggered by movement. "Roll to activate Iron Skin at no cost," "Slide to launch Ice Wave at no cost." This is literally power creep, because limbo has 5 native powers now, and a passive. 

Two, mechanically, it feels janky as hell on a controller, at least to me. I can't do it without movement - in fact, without actively moving - and so I end up finding corners to run into so I can switch modes without crossing ground. It activates in midair if you try to roll, which - I dunno about you, but I use the roll a lot in midair. In places where I need to be very careful about movement, I'm denied the use of the roll maneuver unless I also want to change Rift states .

Personally, I wish it they'd been honest about it, added a fifth power to Limbos UI, and had it be triggered by the "activate power" command, and said "Limbo gets five, because the entire point of the rework was to add Stasis because it's too cool, but we couldn't let anything else go."

Edited April 19, 2017 by (XB1)CannyJack
Typos

[41Numbers]

3 hours ago, Evanescent said:

QoL change:

Closing the rift no longer unrifts Limbo.

Scaling changes:

Cataclysm no longer is able to immediately apply the total portion of enemy health as damage when it closes.

Each enemy in the rift plane 'feeds' or charges the rift with its health over a duration such as 5s, one by one. Only after the rift has completely been charged with it can it's health be used as damage by Limbo. Prematurely spamming the ability results in the base damage of cataclysm.

Enemies rifted by cataclysm charge faster.

What this means:

Cataclysm retains its nuking power, but becomes more costly and precious to build up the damage and use like Nidus and his stacks. It also become significantly less spammy, which is the main problem with the ability at the moment.

Essentially, Enemy health is added to cataclysm's damage as it does now but over time instead of instantly.

Factors affecting health charge:

Power strength affects how many enemies are charged at once, and the percentage of their health that is absorbed, with the minimum being one and health absorption being 10%, at below 100% power strength.

Power duration inversely affects how fast the charging takes place, i.e. the more duration you have the quicker you get to finish charging each enemy.

Synergies:

Stasis stabilizes and slows the shrinking of the Cataclysm bubble.

Rift Surge destabilizes and speeds up the decay of the bubble, but speeds up the charging.

 

From what I understand you want to make the rift into equinox's 4 in day form

[-CM-NineFingers]

3 hours ago, (Xbox One)CannyJack said:

I have two objections to the replacement of rolling: one is "moral," so to speak. The other is mechanical. 

First, the ability to walk in the Rift is an essential power of Limbos. It's not some sideline passive - he has on-demand energy-regenerating invulnerability now. This ability was once considered by DE to be significant enough to be a power all on its own. It still is that significant, but I somehow doubt that DE is going to go back through the frames and make all of their second powers free, energy-regen abilities triggered by movement. "Roll to activate Iron Skin at no cost," "Slide to launch Ice Wave at no cost." This is literally power creep, because limbo has 5 native powers now, and a passive. 

Two, mechanically, it feels janky as hell on a controller, at least to me. I can't do it without movement - in fact, without actively moving - and so I end up finding corners to run into so I can switch modes without crossing ground. It activates in midair if you try to roll, which - I dunno about you, but I use the roll a lot in midair. In places where I need to be very careful about movement, I'm denied the use of the roll maneuver unless I also want to change Rift states .

Personally, I wish it they'd been honest about it, added a fifth power to Limbos UI, and had it be triggered by the "activate power" command, and said "Limbo gets five, because the entire point of the rework was to add Stasis because it's too cool, but we couldn't let anything else go."

Except rift walk is a vital part for Limbo. Octavia regenerates energy when any of her powers are active, and can turn invisible on demand. Limbo can't deal or be dealt damage in the rift (if you're alone) and regens energy. The problem is, being invisible doesn't attract aggro, while being in the rift does. Which means, when it was a time based ability and you don't find a safe corner to recast, it got you killed, as many enemies were already shooting at you. As a second ability, it was necesary, but not a good ability. Now, as a passive that you don't need to recast, you don't need to be constantly looking at the clock, as, unlike most frames that can gain DR or temporal immunity, you can't take a second shot.

I would also like a standing still rift walk, it could be put on "hold 1".

P.S.: Why is it so hard for you guys to use the dash on mid air? has the same properties as the old roll, but changes dimensions. You can change them again upon touching floor, I never seen any Limbo get killed because of that, nor I died myself.

[(XBOX)CannyJack]

Right, Rift Walk is a vital part of Limbo - so vital it was a full-fledged power in its own right. Now it's a free power - in fact, it gives you back energy. It's better than Iron Skin, better than Warding Halo, better than...well, almost anything out there. Like I said, if they're going to movement-trigger everyone's 2, then fine -- that's a fair approach. But giving Limbo a freebie 5th power that is that good is pretty much the definition of power creep. I eagerly await being able to activate Iron Skin by rolling. 

As for the midair dash, it's not that it's not hard to do. It's that it changes your rift state. Since I was going to give the Limbo change the benefit of the doubt, I tried him out on Lua spy (which is pretty much all I use limbo for anyway - spy missions). I use midair roll to soft-land on stuff all the time, or to change direction. It is an ingrained practice, something I've learned to do over the three-four months I've been playing. Except with Limbo, midair roll (well dash) is now overloaded with another function, that of changing rift state. So using my normal instincts/learned muscle memory as I maneuvered through a vault, I managed to midair-dash right out of the rift and right into a laser, triggering the alarms and losing the data. Yes, I can learn to not do that. No, I'm not going to bother retraining myself for one warframe. 

On a console, crouch and roll are already the same button. With Limbo, it's now crouch, dash, and change rift state. I wholeheartedly recommend that the devs just add Rift Walk as a power you activate by the "activate power" button, rather than keying it to a movement command. 

 

Edited April 19, 2017 by (XB1)CannyJack