Why does trading in this game have to be so terrible?

[Judgebanks]

How is it that PoE, which I thought had some pretty bad trading systems, gets overshadowed by this cesspool?

Every time you try to sell vaulted items, you get some goon running up to trying to trade you default mods for your Rhino Prime.

Can we not have a way to list items in game for a set price, sometime this year hopefully?

[artemisfortune]

No. No Auction House.

[[DE]Momaw]

The economy in POE is completely different and designed from a fundamental beginning so that 'money' is a consumable item that drops in-game and is useful to all players, which solves the problem of wealth creation rate vs demand creation rate....   A problem that Warframe doesn't have an answer to.

For detailed responses, search the forums for the other nearly infinite threads on this topic.

 

[(XBOX)ATLongshot]

Quite frankly it benefits the devs to have as disorganized a trading system as possible, encourages pple to give up and just buy something.  That's the cynical view atleast. 

[MakeLuvNotWerFrame]

suppose I'll be forced to assume you weren't around when there was no trading at all, and all the begging whining and pleading that went along til we got it.

cannot just accept what you've got for the moment, ask then wait?

oh well, people will do as they please it seems.

Edited April 9, 2017 by MakeLuvNotWerFrame

[CoffeePoweredGenocide]

I hope they never do this! I really enjoy the ever changing market is really fun to me. I actually consider it an important part of warframe. set prices will make the market become some kind of boring process where we just empty our void trash for some coins.

Edited April 9, 2017 by -VV-mago_de_muerte
punctuation mistakes & typos

[ashrah]

auction house would be bad.. maybe we get some alternative later....

[Judgebanks]

ITT: People who have never played a video game, think AH is bad. Not having an AH is worse than having one.

[Voltage]

That is your opinion. Trading in this game should not be super easy, or people would not buy platinum as often. The economy right now is not at the highest point, but it is still decent. 

If you want to make platinum, you need to sit down in your dojo for an hour or more and get good at scanning chat and seeing the good and bad deals. 

The only issue is the frozen chat bug that happens when you sit in dojo too long :/

[Shinobu_Scorpion]

6 minutes ago, Judgebanks said:

ITT: People who have never played a video game, think AH is bad. Not having an AH is worse than having one.

Always a great argument, you don't agree with me so you are wrong.

I don't agree with an AH because the games that I've played on that have had one ultimately had their economy tank into either no one but the richest being able to get anything or everything being practically worthless.

Personally I'm fine with how it is now. A free market with changing prices. Keep looking in there and you can get some great deals.

[SonicDoragon]

As much as a lot of people would like an auction house, until people start being louder than the people demanding no to one, there's little hope. Just look at all the whiners who got PvP into the game. I'm all for one and hope it does happen, It's been a hope since before trading was even a thing and I'm sure was expected when trading was announced. I've seen multiple times over many mmo's auction houses being nothing but a boon for the little guy so long as you have patience. Competition amongst the community always brings prices down from what I've seen. Especially when new thing "x" is released and older content becomes easier and easier/ more people are able to hit older contents level.

[Archforge]

38 minutes ago, JSharpie said:

No. No Auction House.

Agreed. Having an auction house tends to favor the richest person which is not what I want for Warframe. As it stands now, people have more or less equal chances at getting certain items. Implementing an AH would mean everything is laid in front of you and the only determining factor is the price you set which goes back to favoring the rich. Even putting a Cap price on items is a bad choice since items would disappear faster and people with latency issues would suffer greatly. So yeah... don't implement that S#&$.

[Judgebanks]

2 minutes ago, Archforge said:

Agreed. Having an auction house tends to favor the richest person which is not what I want for Warframe. As it stands now, people have more or less equal chances at getting certain items. Implementing an AH would mean everything is laid in front of you and the only determining factor is the price you set which goes back to favoring the rich. Even putting a Cap price on items is a bad choice since items would disappear faster and people with latency issues would suffer greatly. So yeah... don't implement that S#&$.

How does it tend to favor the richest person? It creates competition and ease of information.

 

There has been zero evidence put forth that suggest auction houses are bad in any online game. It favors the consumer by clearly displaying market prices. Those that are against marketplaces are those that enjoy preying on those who don't have information readily available to them.

[1tsyB1tsyN1nj4]

The thing is, if people try to con you out of things, you can easily just leave and find someone who'll pay a reasonable price. Hate the player, not the game

[[DE]Momaw]

19 minutes ago, Judgebanks said:

There has been zero evidence put forth that suggest auction houses are bad in any online game. It favors the consumer by clearly displaying market prices. Those that are against marketplaces are those that enjoy preying on those who don't have information readily available to them.

Economics 101 for forum users:

Let's say that half of all players have a Foo that they don't need.  They have more than one Foo or maybe they just don't care about it, the point is, they don't need one that they have.  Of those people, currently, a small subset of players are willing to invest the time and effort needed to actually sell their Foo. The fact that a relatively small number of people that have Foo are actually selling them, means that the actual rate of supply (Foo on the market) doesn't go up anywhere near as quickly as the hypothetical supply (total Foo in the entire player base).   The sheer nuisance of trading serves as a handbrake on the translation of hypothetical supply into actual supply, meaning that the number of Foo actually available to buy at any given time more closely follows the rate that new people will want to buy one. This keeps the price relatively stable, and means that DE makes money because people are willing to buy a decent amount of platinum to buy the Foo they want.

Now you add an auction house. Almost everybody dumps their surplus of Foo on the auction house. There is very little friction in trading, all you have to do is throw out the offer,  so the hypothetical supply of Foo and the actual supply of Foo are now almost the same thing.  Foo never wears out, or gets used up, or goes bad, and you never have to worry about taxes or cost of shipping. The only thing that matters to whether you sell your Foo or not is whether you have the lowest price out of all the Foo on the market place, bearing in mind that half of all players have a Foo they are willing to sell. So the only way you will sell your Foo is to be the lowest price at market, which means Alice has to sell theirs for less than Bob, and when Charles shows up later a few minutes later he has to sell for even less than Alice. Nobody actually needs more than one or two Foo, it serves no purpose to them, therefore any sale is preferable to no sale. This leads to a race to the bottom.  Soon all Foo sells for 1 platinum in the market. If it sells at all.   DE makes almost no money because, why would you need very much platinum when you can buy all the Foo you'll ever need for a few cents?

And that's why we can't have an auction house.

 

26 minutes ago, SonicDoragon said:

As much as a lot of people would like an auction house, until people start being louder than the people demanding no to one, there's little hope.

It's not about how loud you scream, it's about what you're saying. Disprove what I just wrote and then we'll have a place to talk.

Edited April 9, 2017 by Momaw

[Proxy345]

I've played several MMOs with auction houses and see no issues with them lol

[Archforge]

16 minutes ago, Judgebanks said:

How does it tend to favor the richest person? It creates competition and ease of information.

 

There has been zero evidence put forth that suggest auction houses are bad in any online game. It favors the consumer by clearly displaying market prices. Those that are against marketplaces are those that enjoy preying on those who don't have information readily available to them.

Favor the rich person: I registered Ember prime in the market then I would ALWAYS pick the person with the highest offer. You would be crazy if you choose 400 plat offer to a 600plat offer.

Displays the market price? Yeah you're correct but no one's stopping you to raise prices on rare/in-demand items. Just imagine thousands of people wanting to get Ember primes but only 10 is displayed in the market. I for one would raise the price up and wait for the highest bidder. How would you solve that?

Another problem would be the prices on items which are common or not in-demand. People will ALWAYS buy the item with the lowest price so the high rollers won't get any value unless they lower the price even more so this items would now become worthless.

Few or no items would fall into the "average" price. Either go for the max or the lowest, nothing in between. This vast range of prices would ALWAYS favor those who can afford them and people with the fewest platinum would always suffer.
 

People against marketplaces enjoy preying on people who don't have info? As I see it, engaging in the market without any knowledge is your fault. Why would you walk into an unknown territory without even looking it up? I've been victimized by some of these scumbags but its just because I was inexperienced. AH would solve this issue but more problems would arise. And from my 4 years of playing Warframe, I could say that a lot of people would hate this.

[SonicDoragon]

1 minute ago, Momaw said:

It's not about how loud you scream, it's about what you're saying. Disprove what I just wrote and then we'll have a place to talk.

Literally the next sentence, which you omitted, PvP. How about the blatant weapon nerfs that happened in u.20. or the multiple frames that were nerfed before then? "X is the dominate meta nerf please." look at all the people complaining about limbo's scalability I'd bet money he gets cataclysm nerfed and then all the focus will be on getting stasis nerfed. Nyx's current state after her "fix" which shows how weak her kit got given how well it use to scale but was given nothing but nerfs over the years. One shotgun(the sobek I think? it might of been the original tigris, it was quite a while ago) cause of complaints was buffed like 4+ times in a singe day within hours of it's release cause people complained it was too weak for a shotgun.

Oh I know the best example. The first wave of the vacuum nerf. The dev's literally got death threats and the complaints were so loud and common that it got changed stupid fast. almost like they expected it and went with the worst option first anyway. 

[sv650racer]

AH = AFK Plat farm.

Will never happen.

Edited April 9, 2017 by sv650racer

[(PSN)watt4hem]

Well, we are in admist a solar system war (kinda). So 'no certain price' is something that actualy make sense. Personaly i find it quite fun from time to time

[Miser_able]

2 hours ago, Judgebanks said:

How does it tend to favor the richest person? It creates competition and ease of information.

 

There has been zero evidence put forth that suggest auction houses are bad in any online game. It favors the consumer by clearly displaying market prices. Those that are against marketplaces are those that enjoy preying on those who don't have information readily available to them.

It favors the richest person because they can out bid everyone else. Do you even know how auctions work? 

[Heckzu]

2 hours ago, Proxy345 said:

I've played several MMOs with auction houses and see no issues with them lol

That's because to you don't know how to spot the issues.

In Vindictus, endgame items are hard to obtain and absurdly expensive. Everything else is worth next to nothing due to how abundant or easy they are to obtain. If you're not rich from the start or lucky, you're screwed; it is nearly impossible to make enough money selling mundane items to buy endgame items. Auction boards create divided economies: an economy for the wealthy and an economy for everyone else.

In Tera, there is a player who is infamous for being the wealthiest player in the game by an absurdly large margin. He made most of his wealth manipulating the auction board. He was accused of, and admitted to buying every single instance of certain items and reselling them. In one scenario he even bought out all of the Etching craft products and then resold them at below their production cost, making Etching unprofitable and destroying an entire trade, just for fun. Auction boards can and will be manipulated when players accumulate enough money.

[Heckzu]

2 hours ago, SonicDoragon said:

Literally the next sentence, which you omitted, PvP. How about the blatant weapon nerfs that happened in u.20. or the multiple frames that were nerfed before then? "X is the dominate meta nerf please." look at all the people complaining about limbo's scalability I'd bet money he gets cataclysm nerfed and then all the focus will be on getting stasis nerfed. Nyx's current state after her "fix" which shows how weak her kit got given how well it use to scale but was given nothing but nerfs over the years. One shotgun(the sobek I think? it might of been the original tigris, it was quite a while ago) cause of complaints was buffed like 4+ times in a singe day within hours of it's release cause people complained it was too weak for a shotgun.

Oh I know the best example. The first wave of the vacuum nerf. The dev's literally got death threats and the complaints were so loud and common that it got changed stupid fast. almost like they expected it and went with the worst option first anyway. 

There's a one hundred page thread about the Hema research costs and an 80 page thread about Nekros's Shadows' health decay. DE won't do something solely because the community demands it.

There are some things that DE are adamant about, possibly because it's against their design plan, or because it's simply too risky. An auction house is one of those things.

PvP is made completely separate from PvE and progression. Its implementation does not negatively affect anyone. DE saw that a select few weapons were used extraordinarily more than all other weapons in the game. It also happens that a lot of people complain about those select few weapons, which is why they complied and changed those weapons. Nyx's case is just a bug fix, much like when the Caustacyst's charged attack was fixed to no longer have a slash proc. Nyx is by no means weak; she does her intended job well and she's in a much better state than Oberon or Atlas. People complaining about a new weapon being too weak means that that weapon probably won't sell well. It made perfect sense to buff it since DE would have lost out on sales otherwise. The vacuum range increase was due to strong feedback, but strong feedback isn't getting Nekros's Shadows of the Dead health decay removed or Hema research costs reduced.

[Judgebanks]

14 minutes ago, Heckzu said:

That's because to you don't know how to spot the issues.

In Vindictus, endgame items are hard to obtain and absurdly expensive. Everything else is worth next to nothing due to how abundant or easy they are to obtain. If you're not rich from the start or lucky, you're screwed; it is nearly impossible to make enough money selling mundane items to buy endgame items. Auction boards create divided economies: an economy for the wealthy and an economy for everyone else.

In Tera, there is a player who is infamous for being the wealthiest player in the game by an absurdly large margin. He made most of his wealth manipulating the auction board. He was accused of, and admitted to buying every single instance of certain items and reselling them. In one scenario he even bought out all of the Etching craft products and then resold them at below their production cost, making Etching unprofitable and destroying an entire trade, just for fun. Auction boards can and will be manipulated when players accumulate enough money.

Vindictus is a dead game because they allowed for SQL injections and Botting to go unchecked, try again. As far as Tera goes, I couldn't stomach the awful movement in that game to last me past 12. DFO can be seen as a direct comparison to Vindictus and any player is able to be a part of the economy in less than an hour of creating their first character.

Nothing would prevent a player from selling their void items on an auction house.

World of Warcraft, City of Heroes, Final Fantasy XIV, Guild Wars 2, Lineage 2, Final Fantasy XI, all have auction houses that work, that allow players to be a part of the economy without demanding that a player stop playing the game for hours at a time to humor hagglers.

There is no mythological "rich guy" who buys everything off the auction house, nor is there a mythological "rich guy" that dictates what you can sell your items for.

As for the foo metaphor it's nice story, but it has never happened. Copper Ore in World of Warcraft is still worth 2-3g per ore on average per server. This allows the player to earn tens of thousands of gold before ever hitting level cap, that is good. On the opposite spectrum Eternity in Guild Wars 2 has not inched a bit in price from it's original sale value of 3000g, it's hard to get and rather rare, but it hasn't inflated to a gorillion. In FFXIV it's a little different because of dead servers actually being dead due to the lack of networking capabilities that would allow for a player to play with other player off of their server. Naturally on a dead server you generally won't find anything you want on the auction house because the server is dead. However on populated you will find that to gear a fresh 60 job in full crafted 270 gear it takes less than a week, players generally will want to craft to break into the economy in that game, as rare raid drops are the only other option for decent money.

Auction houses in good games are beneficial to the player in every way. Auction houses in bad games like Vindictus are bad because it allows players to create items from thin air and add them to the economy. That and there was zero punishment for botting in that game.

Is all I've seen from Naysayers is conjecture and hearsay, you can go into any of those games listed and verify everything I've said.

[SilvaDreams]

25 minutes ago, Judgebanks said:

Vindictus is a dead game because they allowed for SQL injections and Botting to go unchecked, try again. As far as Tera goes, I couldn't stomach the awful movement in that game to last me past 12. DFO can be seen as a direct comparison to Vindictus and any player is able to be a part of the economy in less than an hour of creating their first character.

Nothing would prevent a player from selling their void items on an auction house.

World of Warcraft, City of Heroes, Final Fantasy XIV, Guild Wars 2, Lineage 2, Final Fantasy XI, all have auction houses that work, that allow players to be a part of the economy without demanding that a player stop playing the game for hours at a time to humor hagglers.

There is no mythological "rich guy" who buys everything off the auction house, nor is there a mythological "rich guy" that dictates what you can sell your items for.

As for the foo metaphor it's nice story, but it has never happened. Copper Ore in World of Warcraft is still worth 2-3g per ore on average per server. This allows the player to earn tens of thousands of gold before ever hitting level cap, that is good. On the opposite spectrum Eternity in Guild Wars 2 has not inched a bit in price from it's original sale value of 3000g, it's hard to get and rather rare, but it hasn't inflated to a gorillion. In FFXIV it's a little different because of dead servers actually being dead due to the lack of networking capabilities that would allow for a player to play with other player off of their server. Naturally on a dead server you generally won't find anything you want on the auction house because the server is dead. However on populated you will find that to gear a fresh 60 job in full crafted 270 gear it takes less than a week, players generally will want to craft to break into the economy in that game, as rare raid drops are the only other option for decent money.

Auction houses in good games are beneficial to the player in every way. Auction houses in bad games like Vindictus are bad because it allows players to create items from thin air and add them to the economy. That and there was zero punishment for botting in that game.

Is all I've seen from Naysayers is conjecture and hearsay, you can go into any of those games listed and verify everything I've said.

Ah yes, WoW the game that has an auction house and has suffered so much inflation over the years from AH bots buying up and re-posting it at a higher price, still suffered from them too.

CoH had the issue too, as did GW2 and Lineage 2.. The FF games no clue I never touched them.

So yes I will happily not have an auction house if it keeps the bots away and our economy stable (Which it is)

Edited April 9, 2017 by SilvaDreams