The Second Stream Podcast: Oberon Revisited, 'Priest' Warframe, New Boss Fight & More

[trunks013]

That moment when Headsh0t is screaming in silence ... Priceless ^.^ 

[WidescreenJohn]

I've always hated boss fights (and timed levels); but some of the ones in Warframe are abysmal, especially Vay Hek and (particularly) Jordas Golem. They're difficult enough as is, but then to throw other enemies at the players makes those boss fights super-annoying. Bullet sponges with small hit boxes, multiple stages, and bouts of invulnerability -- that's making the boss fight difficult for the sake of making it difficult. (And, no, increased difficulty is not synonymous with "challenge".) I'd rather have a horde mode to end a level than a ridiculously difficult boss. If you must have a boss fight, make it like Horizon: Zero Dawn where you can blow off chunks of armor or weaponry to make the boss more vulnerable.

My ultimate response to "What characteristics do you enjoy in Boss Battles?" is "Not a damn thing". I'd rather have some option/path in the level to bypass them so that those who do like them can do so if they want. 

When it comes to trading, I've never had a problem but I mostly buy prime parts that are too frustratingly rare to bother grinding. The idea of an auction house on relays is actually appealing. I don't think that it constitutes "pay to win" because it can really only help you and your team. (In fairness, I don't do anything in Conclave because I hate PvP, so it's possible that "pay to win" might apply there.)

[(PSN)EmilsTekcor]

1 hour ago, EmberPrime said:

That's nice kinda like eso builds, but don't think we have enough items in wf.

Hmm how about a coin based system where each planet will drop coins and you can bring in those coins to buy things such as supplies or anything that can drop.

[Loobiz]

My opinion on n°4, Chat Changes:

Actually i hope trade chat does not get divided or that at least we get the option to keep it all together.

Most of the times im selling and buying at the same time, i dont go to the trade chat saying ok i want to sell this, i go to the trade chat saying ok lets see what i can find today, a good buy a good sell a good trade, its all profit.

I think this is a very important aspect that is been looked over, make sure that if/when you do this change you let people like me be able to still read all in one.

 

For the future what i really think we need is the option of creating our own chat tabs and that we can decide which chats we want to read in those tabs, i would love to be able to read my clan chat and my squad at the same time. And then we can do /c for clan or /s for squad like most MMO do.

[--Blame--]

14 hours ago, CroqueMortTime said:

3. What characteristics do you enjoy in Boss Battles?

- no invincibility

- no awkardly hidden weakspots

- no multi-stage

- finishing in less than 2 min with a high damage weapon / ability

 

(buuut I guess I'm kind of alone on that one...   :-/   )

I like multistage, it's not for something that takes me too long with invulnerability phase or throwing tubes in the back waiting for the enemy to freeze ...
And if the enemy already has multistages and is very prolonged, I would like it more rewarding to fight against him

[Othergrunty]

1. In your opinion, how usefull is a Jack-of-all-trades Warframe like Oberon?

Well it's been quite some time since i used Oberon, so i don't know if my original experience with him still holds up to how he can be played now. However back then he felt more like a master-of-none than a Jack.

As for a JOAT Warframe in general. I think they can be usefull, but the game is not structured in a way that would make them as desirable to select as the specialized Warframes, unless you really like the design/theme.

Warframe is centered around pre-structured missions with fixed objectives. So players select and tweak their equipment based on what they can expect in said missions. The only purpose of a Jack in these would be if you want to fill multiple roles at once. However many Warframes allready come with abilities which can cover multiple roles and other factors can be balanced via gear and weapons.

So the overall purpose of a Jack in this game, as far as i can see it, is just to provide a different way to play the same existing roles, for sake of playing something else. Which means the reason to pick a Jack boils down to them looking right and their abilities not lacking behind too much compared to those of the specialists (or previous frames with the same abilities).

2. What are you looking for in regards to a Warframe rework?

Scalability, each ability having it's purpose, the overall thing being interesting. In that order.

3. What characteristic do you enjoy in boss battles?

Well i think for many players the most important things in a boss battle are 1. feeling like having overcome a challenge and 2. being rewarded for it. A boss battle needs to provide a challenge to either your build, tactics, ability to play the game or all of them combined, but with a minimum amount of cheap abilities on the enemy part. Likewise they need to feel grand and like being something special.

So i would say finding the right strategies to bring them down is what i enjoy most in boss battles, together with the overall visual or narrative presentation. Especialy if a game provides multiple ways to beat a boss.

5. How excited are you for "Bobo" a.k.a. the next Warframe?

All we have are a piece of artwork, a model and some vague description of it's abilities. I wait until we have more info before i get more interested.

Edited April 19, 2017 by Othergrunty

[ddips]

1. DE Taylor sounds cute af

2. Oberon buff hype

3. Popeframe hype

[(XBOX)RVN World News]

I second the auction house type deal. Anything is better then trade chat now as it stands between having to sit their for hours sometimes, bored out of your mind. Scammers here and there. Being sure you're there 100% or you'll miss what you need. I dread having to go there and it shouldn't  be like that in any game tbh. 

[[DE]Taylor]

6 hours ago, JudgeXion said:

The new frame Bobo I haven't even seen yet. 

there u go bb.

The artwork was done by the amazing and talented Kevin Glint!  

[JudgeXion]

14 minutes ago, [DE]Taylor said:

there u go bb.

The artwork was done by the amazing and talented Kevin Glint!  

Hmm interesting, looks quite like an exorcist with that pendelum and all the dead infested. 

[AdunSaveMe]

19 hours ago, (PS4)EmilsTekcor said:

No I'd like being able to put things up for sale and buy them on a player based automated market like every mmorpg ever.

This isn't an MMORPG. An AH would only hurt the game. A warframe.market-style system would be beneficial.

[NBaek]

We need the market!!

[CroqueMortTime]

14 hours ago, --Blame-- said:

I like multistage, it's not for something that takes me too long with invulnerability phase or throwing tubes in the back waiting for the enemy to freeze ...
And if the enemy already has multistages and is very prolonged, I would like it more rewarding to fight against him

Well I may have overshoot there as well... multistage isn't really the problem... :)

The problem is rather what players want as a boss fight, and maybe more importantly what DE want us to do with said boss fight...
I imagine what the devs want is more than we just play the game (obviously) but play it in its globality, meaning all nodes have players and squads instead of having one interception mission played over and over... (no, not pointing any fingers...)

In that aspect I imagine most boss nodes are relatively empty because there is little incentive to go back to these boss fights... so :
- will a Gigantic boss like in darksouls bring people coming over and over again ? not sure : in single player RPGs or FPS you usually do those fight once... warframe is famously all in the repetition...
- a multistage puzzle game then ? more interesting... the first time... again that probably won't motivate people to come back over and over once they know the puzzle trick...

I think the problem is more in the incentive given to the players : looting and mastering is an important aspect in warframe, and I think boss fights do not reward enough in loot or XP to be interesting...

I mean : why would someone with all the starchart unlocked go back and fight the Alad V (unless sortie related) ?
- building another Valkyr ? I guess you can collect them...
- orokin cell farming is irrelevant past Ceres
- Neural sensors can be found anywhere on Jupiter
- for stalker mark farming you need to wait for stalker to visit first
- All mods that he drops are found elsewhere
- XP farm... ? not really efficient...

And Alad V is a good boss fight in my opinion, both for new players and sorties...

Actually I would like to see stats of how much boss nodes are played... adjusted for new player bias I would guess the most played are Phorid, Kela, Lephantis and maybe Jackal... why ? because they have rewards !

- Phorid is a 3 minutes mission, and do it 3 times will get you one or three built fieldron/detonite/mutagen
- Kela has interesting and exclusive mods (thanks for lowering the judgement points cost by the way - I want that acid shells Glen keeps talking about)
- Lephantis has one exclusive uncommon stance mod
- Jackal has an exclusive pistol Mod

The last three are the more relevant here actually, because these mods can't be found anywhere else, and they can be traded so players may want to farm for more than one...

So I would say : what boss fights really need to keep players coming again are rewards (loot or XP) ... though making them interesting is also appreciated ;)

Anyway that's just my opinion... sorry for the long post :)

 

Edited April 20, 2017 by CroqueMortTime

[TheOneAndOnlyMesaMain]

Secondary+melee? Why do we have Redemeer and Sarpa if you want to do this? Nice idea, but, dont f*ck up everything... And we can use melees while we have any weapon equiped. Why do we need to hold 2 damn wapons instead  one? How we will pick up the datamass on mobilfe defends?

So many problems whit a  unnecessary stuff..

 

Edited April 20, 2017 by OnceAgainHUN

[The_Dead_Humorist]

Personally, I would rather have one or two Warframes that I use for everything. But then again, having less jack-of-all-trade Warframes means that players are more likely to spend more time playing and grinding for Warframe that they would find useful, rather than trying to stick with one for the entire game. However I'm just a person of habit who just doesn't like changing things up that much once I have them how I like it.

[The_Dead_Humorist]

As for filtered chat in trading, I tend to find a lot people not being serious about it. There are people that take players just messing around, as serious in the trade chat (myself included), which leads to a waist of time for the people who are trying to do business. However, I admit that some of these are easier to finger out as jokes than others, and I did find a cute post on the trade chat that had nothing to do with any actual trade that said, "WTB your heart," and although it wasn't directed at any one specific, I still thought it was funny and cute. So, I would like to have filtered trade chat to get rid of the joke trade offers, but I don't think that is really possible because sometimes people are serious about those trades that are too good to be true.

[SoulEather]

1. if you wanna make a frame a jack-of-all-trades i think it will be better that the frame to have more abilities (like equinox) and the changes of "shapes" to be somewhat like limbo's dodge, or those abbilities be like Heal(or something similar)-Tank(to make the frame tankier for both the frame and allies)-Damage(like a buff or something)-CC(because it will help with the scalability and every J-O-A-T i think should have cc) and about the passive it should be something interesting and it should fit some week spots of the frame.
3. Boss battles should have that something that it makes you remember the boss and make you feel like you had done something that is worth the reword that you'l get at the end.
4. About the trade chat, the filters are an ok band-aid and it can make some good changes but the real problem is that the trading system is CHAT based, i think it should be maybe like others games where it exist a place where you put items on sales and other players can come and see all the items that are on sales and if they want that item should be send to him via mail and the afferent plat should come as well and the afferent player inbox, a trade system like that of Blade&Soul (if i should give examples) would be good.

PS. Sorry if my English isn't so good.

Edited April 20, 2017 by SoulReapher

[Milinko]

1. In your opinion, how useful are jack-of-all-trades Warframes like Oberon? and 2. What are you looking for in regards to a Warframe rework?

           Here is the thing Oberon isn't bad jack of all trades are awesome Nidus, Rhino, Limbo are all Jacks but they are amazing ones where their numbers go up and they do awesome no matter the build.. Oberon, he needs very few changes in my opinion because he already fills a niche it's just a niche made for friends who play together and talk to each other more, or an Oberon player who would need to have incredible multitasking abilities so to pay attention to his own needs the health and needs of other players notice how many enemies are within his range where the best spot for him to use his abilities are and that is the issue he has a stupid high skillcap that almost no other frame has and even if you meet that skill requirment you can do mediocre, compared to Octavia that just presses all her abilities and she is instantly the most valuable player.

         Oberon is an offensive support and I love that but the huge issue is his stat numbers are so low and to get any damage off, which he can do a lot of, but it takes assinine amounts of time. He has to constantly spam his abilities, I did testing and negative power strength carpet can kill level 125 corpus tech in about 10-15 seconds if you first lay it down as a preemptive trap and in this case spawn them in the simulacrum right on top of a 20 stack of this ability which with natural talent takes about 20-25 seconds to lay down stacks. See the problem with that is the Nekros desecrate issue where if you use that ability you will be sitting spamming that ability for it to be useful and not playing the game. I think it should have a Inaros style drain that the longer you hold it the more stacks come up, it also should also be a circle formed around you not a rectangle you throw out. An amazing addition to this ability would be to add a minor slow effect for enemies that step in it and have it just deal slightly more damage than it already does and more so for each enemy within it, with a longer base duration. On top of all that his armor increase should be way higher because as is it is just pitiful.

          Oberons first ability seems fine for a first ability it's great for a, you don't have enough energy to waste, or use, and need a bit of CC or in low level easy auto aim damage kills. His third ability is so awesome but the heal amount is inferior to any other heal like trinity that doesn't even take thought to just press Bless and everybody is at max health. Things like that should do a max rank heal of 400 + a percentage of that Frame's max health and Oberon do the same thing except 200 + a smaller percentage but the switch off is that that heal is universal and it extends bleed out timers so even if you aren't close you will have the time to get to them and revive them.

         Finally the big daddy Oberon's ultimate ability Reckoning, Visually his best ability looks so impactful not his highest damaging ability that goes to carpet depending on how you use them. Hallowed Ground ,which is his Carpet, does more damage as long as you are talking about recasting it which is the only way to talk about any of his abilities Hallowed ground does more damage than any other ability for the fact that it constantly does damage over time and that damage stacks on top of each other. Reckoning should just have a limbo style that is based off the average amount of shields and armor for better scalability.

         TL;DR Overall Oberon is good and can crush enemies up to around levels 50-60 but his scaling stops there. After that point there are s many Warframes that can be him better that it is just sad. People say they want cohesion between abilities or stat but never asked for that in other frames like why does Octavia grant invisibility, or multishot, what is the use of Nyx's needles or Excaliburs Javelins Nova's Nullstar, and Nezha is all over the place. As long as they do a job and do it well no one really cares. If Oberon just gets some stat changes and a few effects thrown into some of his abilities he would be phenomenal and no one would actually complain. I started to play Oberon because of all the talk that he is absolute trash and he really isn't. People say similar things about Titania which is also untrue just think her Ultimate should do the exact opposite of Nyx's Ultimate in how it attracts attention. The only frame that is actually trash is Hydroid who through strenuous testing has made it apparent that he is a garbage fire and has the most garbage fire boss. Currently I would do the Vay Hek fight as many times as needed for Oberon not for Hydroid, that boss fight is ridiculous and sad and doesn't give the feeling of accomplishment it gives the sense of "finally that fight was just stupid". Which is an excellent segway into,

3. What characteristics do you enjoy in Boss Battles?

         The stunning answer is drumroll please... NOT INVINCIBILITY PHASES. For the sake of all that is good and holy stop with the invincibility phases. The ambulas rework looked amazing and would you look at that no invincibility phase. The only bosses that have good invincibility phases are Lephantis, Kela De Thaym and Jordas Verdict raid boss.Bosses like Tyl Regor love the idea of multiple phases not the idea of invincibility phases for Tyl Regor and Vay Hek I'm fine with a short invincibility phase separating the first phases from the second but any invincibility other than that is asinine. If Tyl Regor talks such a big game saying he is going to turn us into paste with his hammer and have a live dissection why every 10 seconds he goes and runs, wait no wrong word TELEPORTS to hide behind a wall. Vay Hek I don't even know how in the lore we are able to beat him the man is a floating anti warframe unit, he saps energy, lifesteals and wait for it... majority of his fight he is invincible like why no actually give me a reason why the floating ball of meme that is Vay Hek is easier in the second phase of his fight than the first.

        All bosses should have way more health than they do for the most part get rid off invincibility phases unless they separate true phases of the boss, and up the rewards. If every boss had say difficulty levels like the first time you fight that boss it starts at whatever level you first fight it at and you beat it 3 times after that you unlocked the next difficulty level of that boss that increases it's level by 20 levels that gives twice the rewards, drops, and credit reward from that boss the whole shabang. You then beat the boss on the next difficulty setting 3 more times and you get an even higher difficulty that further increases the levels another 20 and again doubles the rewards. For matchmaking in this just make it so we have say a server list that we can see who is currently in whatever mission and what frames and weapons they are using so you can plan accordingly. If you want to start a mission you can wait until someone joins and you can make a plan until you are all ready to start the game. Kind of like what people do before they start a raid. 

4. In your opinion, how useful do you think filtered Chats will be for trading?

More change more change more change, though it is a good start having one chat for selling one for buying and one that automerges the two and they would have to be separate windows one for the buying or selling and one for the auto merge. But you know what would be better than that having trade chat a trade market where we can make a listing of whatever mod prime part or other tradeable object you have and a price if you wish to list a price that is or you can have a option that makes people message you an offer and you start to haggle or setup a meeting time for when you will both be online so you can make use of that whole inbox mechanic that is really not reaching it's full potential for some reason. Alos trade chat hurts my eyes to have to stare at it for so long. I am not saying get rid of trade chat however as humans we hate change so this way we can accommodate to more people. I would actually buy more platinum to trade if I had a trade system that wasn't based on just whenever 1 particular person with the riven I want or looking for a riven I have is online and just happened to notice me in the chat. If I want a specific stradavar riven then I should be able to market search for stradavar rivens not depend on un-immersive things like warframe.market or the forums.

[(PSN)EmilsTekcor]

10 hours ago, AdunSaveMe said:

This isn't an MMORPG. An AH would only hurt the game. A warframe.market-style system would be beneficial.

umm an automated market means that you put something up for sale and if someone wants it at the price you listed they can pick it up for without having to contact you and when you login you get the plat.

[Blakrana]

So far as Reworks go, I think that one of the other aspects that should be considered is modifying and amending the mechanics of abilities if they prove either counter intuitive, or unreliable in more situations than desired. Adding in improved scalability and functionality doesn't mean much if flawed mechanics are left in place.

For Oberon, this largely looks at Hallowed Ground and Renewal. Hallowed Ground is stationary, doesn't really offer anything useful to the vast majority of frames, and doesn't do much than chip at enemies moving over it. Renewal meanwhile, is a Toggle for no clear reason whatsoever, and has an inverted relationship with Duration, where it is effective over less time for more duration, in turn affecting the value of healing it provides; its not particularly reliable as a Heal over Time as it has no effect unless someone is injured and, per the time it takes to reach a target and take effect, may not be sufficient in a pinch.

Whilst I'm hopeful Oberon is brought up to a good standard, if he still retains handicaps that make his abilities suffer from inconsistency, it may not be sufficient to get out of the rut he's been stuck in.

With any luck, we'll see some specifics soon, but until then I'm going to restrain myself from getting too excited; this isn't the first time Oberon's been looked at and still been found wanting after the fact. If he can become a solid and reliable frame, capable of providing whatever form of support the situation demands, that'd be nice. Till then...all we can do is wait and see.

As for the new Warframe: Abilities and role would be nice to know. As it stands, hearing him relying in some part on precision makes me wonder how well he'd handle/play when employed by Controller users...let alone how precision would factor, when lining up a shot takes more time than most enemies may be alive for in general. Till then...Aesthetically the design looks great, and I'm interested what function it'll serve for the expansion of Red Veil lore.

Either way, apologies for going on, as always.

[skullfture]

오베론의 치유력은 체력에 있어서는 일시적인 회복이 아닌, 지속적이어야하고, 회복 속도를 높이는 스킬이어야 한다. 반대로 적에게는 지속적으로 회복력을 차단하거나, 회복하지 못하게 하는 스킬이어야 할 것이다. 또한 오베론 혼자서 플레이 할때에는 적들의 Status Effects 공격이나 유틸적인 측면에서 어느정도 저항이나 면역이 되어야 하고(passive or buff), 적들에게는 Status Effects가 걸릴 확률을 높이고, 이를 Reckoning skill에 활용하는 방식으로 공격적인 운용을 하거나, 팀으로 함께 할때는 적들의 회복, 저항을 저하하거나 차단하고(debuff), 팀들은 오히려 적들의 Status Effects에 적게 걸리고, 적에게는 Status Effects를 더 주는 방식(buff)으로 서포터의 역할로서의 운용이어야 한다.

Oberon's healing power is not a temporary recovery in physical strength, but it must be continuous and a speed-increasing skill. On the contrary, it should be a skill to prevent the enemy from constantly restoring or recovering. Also, when playing Oberon alone, you have to be somewhat resistive or immune to the enemy's Status Effects attack or utility (passive or buff), increase the probability of the Status Effects to enemies, and use it for the reckoning skill. When teaming together, they must be used as a supporter's role as a way to defeat enemies, reduce or block resistance, take the enemy's Status Effects to a lesser extent, and give the enemy more Status Effects .

[AdunSaveMe]

8 hours ago, (PS4)EmilsTekcor said:

umm an automated market means that you put something up for sale and if someone wants it at the price you listed they can pick it up for without having to contact you and when you login you get the plat.

That's an auction house. It would only hurt the game.

[(PSN)EmilsTekcor]

10 minutes ago, AdunSaveMe said:

That's an auction house. It would only hurt the game.

Umm no an auction house would be a bid based system and do tell how a market where players can set prices without interacting with others would hurt the game.

[AdunSaveMe]

7 hours ago, (PS4)EmilsTekcor said:

Umm no an auction house would be a bid based system and do tell how a market where players can set prices without interacting with others would hurt the game.

It doesn't have to just be bidding to be an auction house. WoW's AH works partially as an actual auction, but also allows buyouts, which is what most people use, and is how most MMO AHs work. What was suggested is the same as WoW's AH, without the bidding.

Edited April 21, 2017 by AdunSaveMe

[RavingRoman]

What characteristics do you enjoy in boss battles?

- I enjoy boss battles when they have some unique sequence that makes fighting them cooler. To be more specific; quicktime events with regular gameplay that have some short cinematic moments were you can just appreciate how much of a badass you are. I love enjoying the fact they are very imposing figures that you will, in all your epic glory, take them down a few notches.

- Another aspect is having bosses that change tactics, causing us to step back and plan our next move. Epic clashes is what makes a great boss battle.