Oberon Rework discussion and feedback (including feedback post prime time #161)

[Turtlemancer]

6 minutes ago, redeyedtreefrog said:

You see, all of the possible complaints to renewal always seem to boil down to that nasty channeled healing drain. It is a terrible mechanic that makes modding for (phoenix) renewal directly counterintuitive to modding for hallowed ground, or smite infusion. The only way to keep oberon's kit viable is to go heavy on duration, which turns renewal into a short effect that gets even shorter if you're not at incredibly low HP (hell, it's an affect that can sometimes NEVER take effect, if you're just topping off HP). Removing this mechanic will cause modding for one ability to benefit all of the other abilities just as much, creating a natural synergy in the modding system. 

It would seem that this is indeed the case. What's disappointing is, we the players have a clear majority on what we wanted done with renewal, and the changes seem relatively reasonable, even with his new kit. 

You my friend are a true optimist and I salute you!

Well, I guess I should try to get back on topic, and hope things work out. I agree the big issue really is how counter-intuitive and frustrating Renewal is. I keep hoping Rebecca merely misspoke, after all we did kind of put her on the spot there, but from the look of things that seems to not be the case.

Edited April 22, 2017 by Turtlemancer

[Urlan]

I am worried about reduced range on Renewal, passive being useless without pets, and I feel I would need more details about what is staying or leaving about Oberon's current abilities before not worrying about this current work in progress.

[Turtlemancer]

Well after reviewing the footage and testing in game it looks like Oberon might have gotten a slight health buff. Right now if you have a maxed Vitality and a Vigor equipped my max health is about 1,075 in the footage Rebecca had the Oberon's health at 1,200 with 400 shields so that's either with Vigor and Vitality or just Vigor. so that's nice. Especially if she was only running vigor (though I doubt that).

i COULD BE MISSING SOMETHING THOUGH.

[(PSN)TwilightGrim]

7 minutes ago, Turtlemancer said:

Well after reviewing the footage and testing in game it looks like Oberon might have gotten a slight health buff. Right now if you have a maxed Vitality and a Vigor equipped my max health is about 1,075 in the footage Rebecca had the Oberon's health at 1,200 with 400 shields so that's either with Vigor and Vitality or just Vigor. so that's nice. Especially if she was only running vigor (though I doubt that).

i COULD BE MISSING SOMETHING THOUGH.

the person might have primed vigor

[Mousarchy]

2 hours ago, BeardyKyle said:

I'll keep this as short as possible but I have a lot of constructive criticism and questions for you, DE. 

 

Renewal should absolutely not be changed to a wave. As others have stated it's a nerf to his infinite range and ability to reach teammates in other rooms. Aside from the Projectiles from the old renewal IMO fitting his Fairy theme very well, the infinite range makes him unique from other healers and balances the fact that his heal isn't as strong as theirs.   

The armor buff synergy from renewal + HG is welcome. However, from what I see (correct me if i'm wrong) it only applies to teammates and not to Oberon himself and that's dependent on Them standing on hallowed ground While renewal is cast. This actually adds another level to the previous problem of players having to stand on hallowed ground to receive its effects, now they also need to stand on it at the specific moment you cast renewal as well.

What would be better is obviously have it applied to Oberon if it doesn't currently and have it affect other teammates regardless of where they are, as long as Oberon casts Renewal while on Hallowed Ground. To encourage team play however, an additional buff should be given if any teammates are standing on HG while renewal is cast. 

The armor has a timer that starts once renewal reaches full health. No problems with this. However, renewal itself should not end at full health.

Renewal now drains energy after it reaches allies rather than during travel time, does this mean it doesn't drain energy for solo players?

There's no problem having renewal be duration based and begin to drain energy when the effect reaches allies - as long as having higher duration means longer heal time and higher efficiency means less energy drained. So essentially the heal could last for a flat 30 secs and drain 5 energy per second for example, instead of being limited by both. 

- The problem with inverse duration on renewal is it affects his other powers too much. If you are insisting on keeping the inverse duration then the base timers of hallowed ground and reckoning's blind effects (which I assume it still has) should be extended to compensate for having to mod for the dynamics of Renewal. 

The changes and synergies to smite and reckoning are both welcome.

The changes to his passive are decidedly worse. They force players to now use animal companions instead of sentinels. Please have it apply to sentinels as well or be an addition to his current passive, or both.

 

 

 

 

While the wave is a nerf to its range it IS a QOL buff to applying said heal. ive watched a guy standing 15m from me dodge my heal for a good 2 minutes on accident while killing corpus. So im kinda on the  fence on that chant (more off the fence since i run a half durration and the heal change hurts me the most of hte entire kit)

I belive there was a buff on Oberon for the armor. If not its still a WIP and the icon hasnt been put in yet. since removing the armor buff from the cast would be bad (also the armor boost is from hollowed ground, not the heal so it makes since for them to be on it. Just be glad its got a massive range buff)

The issue with makeing the heal work that way is your pushing for duration builds more so (I mean Id adjust if I have too since i run a half duration for the slower HOT since i can just recast the burst if I must)

His passive I personally Enjoy cuz I prefer using my Kavat over my sentinals. Tuna,my adarza, giving insane crit chance through out the mission would be nice lets just hope its NOTICIABLE otherwise ima have to agree with you,lol.

but ya I see were your concerns lie and keep up the passion. (also hope DE remembers oberon has the lowest energy pool in the game and rectifies that)

[Mousarchy]

49 minutes ago, Turtlemancer said:

Well after reviewing the footage and testing in game it looks like Oberon might have gotten a slight health buff. Right now if you have a maxed Vitality and a Vigor equipped my max health is about 1,075 in the footage Rebecca had the Oberon's health at 1,200 with 400 shields so that's either with Vigor and Vitality or just Vigor. so that's nice. Especially if she was only running vigor (though I doubt that).

i COULD BE MISSING SOMETHING THOUGH.

hes running vitality and PRIMED vigor. Math checks out.

(also had to do the math based on energy pads. oberon still has 150 base energy. rip)

Edited April 22, 2017 by Ordosan

[jinxeverything]

2 hours ago, redeyedtreefrog said:

You see, all of the possible complaints to renewal always seem to boil down to that nasty channeled healing drain. It is a terrible mechanic that makes modding for (phoenix) renewal directly counterintuitive to modding for hallowed ground, or smite infusion. The only way to keep oberon's kit viable is to go heavy on duration, which turns renewal into a short effect that gets even shorter if you're not at incredibly low HP (hell, it's an affect that can sometimes NEVER take effect, if you're just topping off HP). Removing this mechanic will cause modding for one ability to benefit all of the other abilities just as much, creating a natural synergy in the modding system. 

True, what ruins Renewal is forced channeling and inverted duration (never made sense to me) which can be fixed with, IMHO, the following :

1) Make it similar to Desecrate, activate Renewal (cost nothing) let it attach to allies and drain when they take damage (no pulse wave please).

2) Make it so it only works for 5 seconds (unaffected by duration mods) and have a cool down of 5 seconds before it heals again.

3) Give it Iron Skin/ Warding Halo 3 seconds invulnerability so it absorbs incoming damage and turn it into damage reduction while canceling any debuffs.

4) NPC can be healed with it but they have to be within 20 meters of Oberon. 

5) It has no range like it used to be (after the change is life it will be like it used to be).

6) Remove Regen, it can't keep up with incoming damage 

The synergy concept does not need to be shoehorned into everything, what the goat guy need a functional kit that can be min-maxed and/ or specialized at will since he is meant to be balance itself and the Jack-of-All-Trades.

** Onto his other powers :

- Smite : its good but it seems like its great versus 1 enemy but somewhat ok against group (not really an issue).

- Hallowed Ground :

1) IT needs be an ability that, upon activation, turns the very ground Oberon walks on into an AoE 'trap' to enemies and 'buff' to allies.  

2) IT needs to be an ability that turns anything that comes into contact with it into an ally and turn them against their faction.

3) Anything that touch HG will retain its effect for the duration of the ability, activating HG will remove its effects on others.

- Reckoning :

1) Enemies hit by it gets tangled in the air, while radiated, and they become a shield and a decoy that draws away enemies attention from Oberon and they fly with if Oberon moves.

2) Allies that damage affected enemies will restore their health (ala Well of Life).

3) Affected enemies when killed will explode creating Radiation wave that affect nearby enemies. 

** Passive : (since he is the Jack-of-All-Trades then he needs more than 1 passive)

First passive : ALL companions without exception have extra cool down on their precepts. (I like this one but why make it pets only?)

Second passive : all companion (including allies) don't die but becomes dormant upon death and can be revived every 2 minutes (that's the cool down) but the revive is slower.

Edited April 22, 2017 by Prinny13

[redeyedtreefrog]

1 hour ago, Prinny13 said:

-snip-

That is WAY too much change to renewal in a rework where A: DE has stated they want to keep the existing power kit and B: Everyone's upset because they've already changed the way the power works too much. I'll say it again, renewal needs one or both of these changes:

1. Remove the inverse duration scaling/channeled heal and replace it with a generic HoT. Scale energy cost up a bit if you think it'll upset the balance, idc.

2. Allow renewal to stay attached to full-HP targets.

Just ONE of these changes will bring a much greater quality of life to oberon, but I'm pushing for both. You can't say it'll be overpowered. Not without lying to yourself, anyway.

Also, the regen is what makes renewal unique. Sure, it CAN'T keep up with incoming damage, but then again, at level 140 or so napalm puddles start to one-hit you in one tick, so can anything short of outright invincibility TRULY keep up with enemy damage? It's still health, it just requires you to wait a bit before using it, which is fine to me. Especially if they made renewal recastable without having to cancel it first. That way you can get extra bursts whenever.

[jinxeverything]

8 minutes ago, redeyedtreefrog said:

That is WAY too much change to renewal in a rework where A: DE has stated they want to keep the existing power kit and B: Everyone's upset because they've already changed the way the power works too much. I'll say it again, renewal needs one or both of these changes:

1. Remove the inverse duration scaling/channeled heal and replace it with a generic HoT. Scale energy cost up a bit if you think it'll upset the balance, idc.

2. Allow renewal to stay attached to full-HP targets.

Just ONE of these changes will bring a much greater quality of life to oberon, but I'm pushing for both. You can't say it'll be overpowered. Not without lying to yourself, anyway.

Also, the regen is what makes renewal unique. Sure, it CAN'T keep up with incoming damage, but then again, at level 140 or so napalm puddles start to one-hit you in one tick, so can anything short of outright invincibility TRULY keep up with enemy damage? It's still health, it just requires you to wait a bit before using it, which is fine to me. Especially if they made renewal recastable without having to cancel it first. That way you can get extra bursts whenever.

I'm going for WAY too much changing for 2 reasons :

1) I like to go further beyond, why stop with small changes anyway ;P

2) DE won't touch Oberon for years after they change him, might as well make the changes good if not great!

Also I want Oberon to be super great so let me have some fun :)

[(PSN)Stachitus]

So odd thing happened earlier, almost all Oberon rework threads are gone, I don't know if they are being removed or relocated, but I thought it'd be important to discuss Oberon's Rework.  We had a very sneaky Prime Time sneaking in the Build in Progress at the very end, luckily I had just happened to been watching.

So let's look at the changes:

Passive: Kubrow & Kavat abilities cool down faster and are used more frequently, Also 1 free revive per mission.

My Thoughts: I'm not really a big fan of this passive, although it would be useful with the RNG-Kavat, I would really like something that fits better with his focus on Radiation & Healing.  I would personally give him a counter that the number of irradiated enemies increase his Power Duration or Power Range, which could really benefit all of his abilities.

Power 1- Smite:  The biggest change to Smite is that it scales to Enemy Max Health, meaning the bigger the health pool, bigger the damage, it also still knocks down, blinds and Rad Procs

My Thoughts:  This is a great ability and it's great that it scales now, my question is the damage, is it on only HP or on EHP? because if it is just HP, it's going to be a lot less effective.

Power 2- Hallowed Ground:  Now a radial AoE rather than a strip, not to mention it now does radiation damage and is the main source of synergies, it also removes negative statuses from allies.

My Thoughts:  Hallowed Ground has a lot of potential, I personally would like this to be an Aura on duration, this would help with synergies and make more sense that everywhere Oberon walks is Hallowed ground

Power 3- Renewal:  This has changed to a wave with limited range that goes out like Novas Molecular Prime, it Synergizes with giving people on hallowed ground an Armor Boost for the duration of renewal.

My thoughts:  Renewal was nice have the infinite range, but in practice would drain you energy even if it wasn't healing someone, which brings me to my points on this power, Healing just to full then stopping is not productive, I would prefer it to continually heal for the full duration while in the area of effect. I also would have it purely Duration based, I believe This is the only skill that is duration based that drains your energy while active.

Power 4- Reckoning:  Does more damage based on irradiated enemies, it also strips armor if they are on hallowed ground.

My Thoughts:  I'm all in on this power, synergies with both Smite and Hallowed Ground, I'm just curious on scaling, how much extra damage from irradiated targets get added, beyond that is there a scaling option?

 

Well those are my thoughts, let me know if I missed anything.  What are your thoughts?

[redeyedtreefrog]

The 1st, second, and 4th abilities are getting various buffs/changes that seem like they will work well enough. There's improvements that I'd possibly like to see made to them, but I and others have said them enough times that I'm not going to mention them here.

His renewal rework... DE has droppd the ball big time.

Originally, renewal had one cool thing about it: infinite range. It had a whole host of other problems though, namely, the channeled regeneration, and the inverse duration that supposedly "helps" the channel, and the regen buff getting stripped when the target it's attached to reaches full health.

In the rework they showed, they fixed NONE of the issues related to renewal, and instead nerfed its infinite range down to an expanding bubble whose range is modified by DURATION. That's right, the stat that works inversely on a different aspect of the same ability, making mediocrity the only option when building for oberon (low duration to take advantage of phoenix renewal will result in a short-range, selfish buff, high dur will make the regen too fast and too-short lived to use either phoenix renewal or the bleedout reduction). On the topic of bleedout reduction, the new wave from renewal seems to travel so slowly, that you can actually outrun it. That means that you can't cast renewal in order to slow a squadmate's bleedout timer while you rush to revive them, because you'll probably get there before the wave does, or at the same time. 

They've tried to pass off this nerf as a buff by making renewal give you an armor buff if it hits you while you're standing on hallowed ground. Now, sure, this IS a good thing, but wait. Didn't hallowed ground already give you an armor buff when you're standing on it? will the buffs stack? Has hallowed ground's (admittedly not great) armor buff been removed in favor of forced synergy? Questions which the livestream did not answer. 

I genuinely hope DE sits down and takes another look at renewal with the players' requests in mind, because currently, it's clear that they haven't looked at what their playerbase has been requesting on the forums since even before DE announced a rework.

[Urlan]

Seems sound, I would probably go for Hallowed Ground be a toggle on or duration aura with a large radius around Oberon as well and I wouldn't consider any scaling damage on smite to last in light of Limbo's Cataclysm's nerf right after his rework. I like your passive suggestion, fits his sub-theme as the radiation warframe. I would tend to agree with your thoughts on Renewal for the most part, but I feel that a limited duration makes the poor comparison between it and Blessing even more apparent - though comparing to the most powerful heal is of course always there, before range was at least a bonus after Trinity's last touch-up. I also would second that the Renewal needs to stay active for its duration to be effective especially considering trying to use Phoenix Renewal though that mod doesn't work very well mechanically even now.

[Madame_Werewolf]

I personally love this rework idea. My main companions are kavats and kubrows, I rarely use sentinels, so the possibility to have constant critic buff from my Adarza or unlimited stealth from my Huras sounds amazing! The rest of Obe's skills sounds awesome and way more useful than what he is right now.

I'm so excited!

[Urlan]

On 4/19/2017 at 9:12 AM, Ordosan said:

So..I dont wanan step on anytoes...as a person who plays oberon for the paliden feel...Why not just make a new frame at this point? a proper Druid.
since you are essentially saying "delete oberon and make a different frame that LOOKS like oberon but isnt"

cuz to me oberon will always be the paladin (he can keep his fae/fairy look and still be a paladin...i dont THINK thats exclusive)
but with all this work youve put into it its not longer Oberon (the warframe.) and its someone else almost.

not to be rude or anything. Just thats what I see here (Its not bad though. Id play that frame and I do see were the skills 'branched' from the orig skills.)

Oberon was never meant to be a druid, passive not-withstanding. Oberon is a Paladin, was meant to be one, described as one, has abilities pulled from amalgams of D&D Paladin moves, and has a White Stag as his look - a symbol of a Paladin. He does have a nature theme to said armor that said and his deluxe designed by Ignis Rei has a plant butterfly fairy theme. Befriending Animals is a Ranger ability as well as that of a druid and I don't see Ivara, the Ranger cuddling Kubrow outside her Orbiter anytime soon.

If we want a Druid, I would be all for it, but that would be a separate warframe and not Oberon, the Paladin.

[Mousarchy]

1 hour ago, Urlan said:

Oberon was never meant to be a druid, passive not-withstanding. Oberon is a Paladin, was meant to be one, described as one, has abilities pulled from amalgams of D&D Paladin moves, and has a White Stag as his look - a symbol of a Paladin. He does have a nature theme to said armor that said and his deluxe designed by Ignis Rei has a plant butterfly fairy theme. Befriending Animals is a Ranger ability as well as that of a druid and I don't see Ivara, the Ranger cuddling Kubrow outside her Orbiter anytime soon.

If we want a Druid, I would be all for it, but that would be a separate warframe and not Oberon, the Paladin.

Im going to assume you are either agreeing with me. or you quoted the wrong person. Cuz I agree with what you said. Hes a paladin and was a paladin even BEFORE he was named oberon (the design council voted on the name oberon so if you ahve issues with the paladin being named after the king of faries take it up with them). So thats why i said he should just make a new frame...cuz he is LITTERLY basing all his assumptions on Oberons name...which was tacked on after the fact..THUS...our oberon is only NAMED around oberon and not based around what Auberon was.

[Urlan]

3 minutes ago, Ordosan said:

Im going to assume you are either agreeing with me. or you quoted the wrong person. Cuz I agree with what you said. Hes a paladin and was a paladin even BEFORE he was named oberon (the design council voted on the name oberon so if you ahve issues with the paladin being named after the king of faries take it up with them). So thats why i said he should just make a new frame...cuz he is LITTERLY basing all his assumptions on Oberons name...which was tacked on after the fact..THUS...our oberon is only NAMED around oberon and not based around what Auberon was.

Yes, that would make sense from my end.

[Urlan]

If nothing else, it shows that a good number of players care about this upcoming rework.

[Mousarchy]

On 4/21/2017 at 3:42 PM, Talvu said:

Bless only heals you to max health, and you don't see sensible people asking for it to over heal for the remainder, why should renewal be any different? Renewal is a static heal, it applies it over time but it's still a freaking static heal, not a make players invincible button to be spammed over and over again. Here's a tip for ya, don't waste your energy trying to constantly top off your health or the health of other players.

 

Oh to the contrary my good friend I understand exactly how it would work without the cap and so does  DE, which is why we won't see the cap removed.

The second you take the cap off renewal you essentially force Oberon players to have it up at all times or be considered bad because they don't want to sit there and constantly spam 3 to make teammates never die.

I keep stating this

If a target of renewal dies after reaching full health then there is nothing that Renewal could have done about it.

Not because one hit kills can't be helped, but because you can't stop stupid from happening. Oberon's renewal helps keeps players alive, but it's up to the players themselves to make sure they don't die in the first place.

ya cant argue with that. and based on player base that would happen. like the heal ending when you get topped off. never bothered me as an oberon player. what bothered me was the fact you could dodge the heal without trying (fixed via the wave now) and that the bleed out reduction was screwed in either extremes of duration giving the same 2 second extra bleed out at very high or very low duration. I always wanted the HOT 'buff' to get abosorbed if you go down thus turning INTO a bleed out reduction instead of relying on the HOT being on them for the reduction to take effect.

[cookieknife]

So. here's what I want from the new Renewal (his 3rd) I want it to be a channel ability. Like maim or world on fire. ALSO I want the health and energy orbs from Reckoning (his 4th) to spawn even if they enemy isnt dead. At a reduced chance of course. But Reckoning wont be killing enemies at high level at all. It's Armor Debuff will come in handy but still wont make it crazy good.

Just my opinions on it.

Also Hallowed Ground(his 2nd) needs to be large at base rather than small. And it's armor buff needs brought higher oberon needs to be just under chroma or above valkyr's armor buff.

And maybe his base armor needs buffed to like. 300 or 400? 

comment what you guys want because the more we talk about it the more DE will listen.

Edited April 23, 2017 by cookieknife

[Carnage2K4]

Well his 2nd will be larger...

And his 3rd is a radial blast emanating from the frame...

They are not changing his stats as far as we know.

 

On 21/04/2017 at 0:23 PM, (PS4)lilkevin107 said:

Smite: now scales with enemy level :) that's pretty much it, it also received a minor visual change. 

Hallowed Ground: now radiates each enemy that steps on it, it still clears status effects, and its finally not rectangular shaped, its now a wide circular area, also received a major visual change

Renewal: it now works like Molecular Prime and Polarize. This synergizes with Hallowed Ground, when you cast Hallowed Ground, allies get a flat armor bonus for the duration of the heal. But the sad thing about is that energy still stops when allies reach full health.

Reckoning: Enemies that are radiated, receive more damage from this ability,  synergizes with Hallowed Ground. The enemies that are standing on Hallowed Ground during Reckoning receive armor debuffs that scale with levels and strength. 

Proposed Passive: Allied pets get cooldown reductions on their abilities and attacks. You also get a free revive for them. This passive is meh, It's better than the one we have now. 

Edited April 23, 2017 by Carnage2K4

[(XBOX)SentientOmega0]

I use Oberon in some of my mission he is really good. He can make everything seam easy to be honest.

[redeyedtreefrog]

The entire problem with renewal is that it is a channeled ability. What renewal truly needs is to be an incredibly basic healing ability. Oberon casts the heal. The heal seeks out targets. Those targets are healed for a moderate amount and a regenerative effect is applied to the target. No channels. No energy drains. No stripping of buffs to targets with full HP. No needing to cancel the buff in order to reapply it. Simple. Effective. Spammable. In essence, Oberon.

[(XBOX)SentientOmega0]

4 minutes ago, redeyedtreefrog said:

The entire problem with renewal is that it is a channeled ability. What renewal truly needs is to be an incredibly basic healing ability. Oberon casts the heal. The heal seeks out targets. Those targets are healed for a moderate amount and a regenerative effect is applied to the target. No channels. No energy drains. No stripping of buffs to targets with full HP. No needing to cancel the buff in order to reapply it. Simple. Effective. Spammable. In essence, Oberon.

True for that

[RunningTree3]

1 hour ago, cookieknife said:

ALSO I want the health and energy orbs from Reckoning (his 4th) to spawn even if they enemy isnt dead. At a reduced chance of course. But Reckoning wont be killing enemies at high level at all. It's Armor Debuff will come in handy but still wont make it crazy good.

Reckoning could get inspired by Blazing Chakram. Let there be some extra duration after casting to kill the affected enemy through any means for health orbs.

[cookieknife]

2 hours ago, Carnage2K4 said:

Well his 2nd will be larger...

And his 3rd is a radial blast emanating from the frame...

They are not changing his stats as far as we know.

 

well yeah, but what they showed could have been 160% range, 190% we dont know, im just hoping for it to be large at base. give us some breathing room so its not small ... and also that passive is absolutely horrid