Oberon Feedback 20.3.1 and beyond

[Hemmo67]

8 minutes ago, KX297 said:

I understand how comparing works entirely, which is why i'm questioning you.

These are two 100% different things. Sure, they serve mildy similar purposes, but still, one's a melee weapon and one's a Warframe ability.

This is like asking whether the Soma Prime is better than the Dread, and then comparing them.

And lets assume you do use pure radiation on your Zenistar. I still think a Zenistar would out-damage hallowed ground. Not only can it achieve a high status chance easily, but it deals exeptional damage.

On the other hand, you need a good chunk of power strength to get hallowed ground to have a ~decent~ amount of damage and status chance. Which, again, wil screw with a solid Oberon build.

Even with Reckoning's armor stripping, I think the Zenistar would be better. It requires a lot of energy to cast Hallowed Ground followed by enough Reckonings to actually strip the armor.

On the other hand, I can just chunk the Zenistar's disk. And it will deal solid damage. Without any aid from a totally seperate source outside of modding.

and if u stack the hallowed grounds you easily out damage zenistars disc and status proc amounts and possible cover a larger area

sure it costs some power but since orbs drops way more than they used to and rage is a thing and so it efficency oberon does not have energy problems

[-Onyx-Phalian]

56 minutes ago, Akimbo said:

Given up on giving feedback. My thread which was well thought out and structured just got mashed into this stupid megathread to be lost to the ages for all time. Just look at the reworked rework. DE are so far off the mark as to how to balance / rework this game I don't really see the point anymore.

Yeah, this seems more like an "Ehh, this should keep them quiet for a while" and not an actually well thought out process. I mean some of these problems even seem obvious just on paper. Yes it's nice Hallowed Ground got wider. No, taking away it's natural armor utility and forcing you to cast it to make Renewal and Reckoning slightly viable just makes it an extra step. 

Let's take a look at Saryn for a moment, probably one of the best reworks so far. Each one of her abilities can stand on their own and have distinct uses while rewarding players to string them together AND has a way to regain energy. Oberon on the other hand has 1 AoE Heal and 3 abilities which on their own deal very little damage and spread Radiation... really? 

[Music4Therapy]

17 minutes ago, FriarTuck said:

Nice, i found open topic..

Just look inside the spoiler.

  Hide contents

Synergies with reduced cost, energy gain.

Ash - only reduced cost of BS if Ash is invisible. Energy gain? Nope.
Atlas - reduced cost of Landslide's combo. Energy gain? Nope.
Banshee - 0 synergies. Energy gain? Nope.
Chroma - nothing and nothing.
Ember - 0 synergies, 10 energy per heat proc on Ember. Good, 100lvl Napalm will provide you with energy for the rest of your life.
Equinox - 0, built-in Equilibrium.
Excalibur - nothing, nothing.
Frost - nothing, nothing.
Hydroid - nothing, nothing.
Inaros - nothing, nothing.
Ivara - nothing, nothing.
Limbo - finally. 0 synergies, passive regen, energy from killing in Rift.
Loki - nothing, nothing.
Mag - nothing, chance to drop an orb using Pull.
Mesa - nothing, nothing.
Mirage - nothing,.. wow.. " Warframes restore 5 energy for every passage and can recharge 5 energy every half second while remaining in contact with the lasers. A maximum of 50 energy can be restored per laser barrier. ".. Oookay..
Nekros - nothing, energy orbs form Desecrate.
Nezha - nothing, nothing.
Nidus - nothing, energy from Virulence (5+ targets).
Nova - nothing, nothing.
Nyx - nothing, nothing.
Oberon - nothing, nothing.
Octavia - nothing, passive regen.
Rhino - reduced cost of Charge's combo. Energy gain? Nope.
Saryn - reduced cost of Spores (when cast on Molt), energy regen from spores burst bu Lash.
Titania - nothing, nothing.
Trinity - nothing, Energy Vampire.
Valkyr - reduced cost of Ripline's combo, nothing.
Vauban - nothing, nothing.
Volt - nothing, nothing.
Wukong - nothing, nothing.
Zephyr - nothing, nothing.

So.. we have 32 warframes. 5 of them can reduce cost of 1 of their abilities. 10 can somehow gain energy. Only 6 can gain energy at will and only 3 of them do not need enemies for this. 3/32. 9.4%.

Of course, I'm not saying "No, Oberon's energy pool and energy gain must remain untouched!", it can be increased/changed, but it's not "O no, Oberon is The-Only-Frame-Without-Energy-Regen".

About Rage..
Inaros (200armor + SFiber + SSwarm = 640 armor) can't regen energy, Inaros can benefit from Rage. Why shouldn't he use it?
Oberon (150 armor + SFiber + HGround = 395-913 armor) can't regen energy, Oberon can benefit from Rage. So why not?

He isn't durable enough to withstand the damage he would need to take in order to keep up his energy pool so that he can not only use the combos in his kit (Hallowed Ground followed by Reckoning then Renewal alone costs 175 energy before efficiency mods) but to upkeep the steep energy drain cost required to heal himself and allies, completely ignoring the fact he has only 100 base energy. Only true tanks like Chroma, Wukong, Inaros, Nidus, etc... really can consistently benefit from Rage in late game content.

Not only that, but he needs range so that his synergies work consistently, strength and duration so that his synergies are strong and last a decent amount of time, and efficiency because he has no way of gaining or reducing energy costs in his kit. Where do we fit survivability mods, rage, and the required Natural Talent due to his absurdly long cast time on Reckoning?

His kit relies *heavily* on the synergies within it in order to work, and Zenurik doesn't work while channeling Renewal, which is a very important part of his kit.

 

This all is WHY he needs energy regen and/or cost reduction built into his kit. He is extremely reliant on comboing his abilities together to make them work, similar to Limbo and Nidus.

Edited April 28, 2017 by Music4Therapy

[NeonNemesis]

2 hours ago, Music4Therapy said:

Agreed. Utility is far more useful than damage, and Smite is one of the best 1s in the game in that regard.

 

As far as the 2nd paragraph goes, as an ability spammer a stat increase won't be enough to fix his problems. Volt isn't a spammer, he is duration based and that's why it works. I say this as a person who uses both frames very often in endurance runs. (both are top 3 most played overall)

Totally agree, my hope is that when Oberon prime access hits they don't manage to sell due to those changes not solving the issues with his kit (especilly the new EN hungry synergies that can only be solved with mods and not improved) and that Chinese meat suplier that owns DE will question why Broberon's PA isn't selling and they are forced to buff him.

[(PSN)psycofang]

3 hours ago, Music4Therapy said:

Yeah, so because Volt (WHO HAS THE LARGEST ENERGY POOL IN THE GAME AND DOESN'T SPAM HIS ABILITIES) doesn't have an energy gain mechanic, Oberon shouldn't? Thats your argument? Jeez, I lost all faith in the Oberon rework. They are looking for ideas to improve him and all we have are a load of mouthbreathers in the community.

Cant compare a prime + p flow to a base frame + p flow.

 

Heavily flawed

 

[yles9056]

It's actually Oberon 3.1

This is the second time DE buff all of Oberon's abilities.

[Music4Therapy]

2 minutes ago, (PS4)psycofang said:

Cant compare a prime + p flow to a base frame + p flow.

 

Heavily flawed

 

Okay, how about this: Volt's kit is duration based and isn't heavily combo-reliant like Oberon's is. Volt uses Speed, he has buff for X amount of time. Volt uses Electric Shield, he has shield up for X amount of time. Shield needs moved? He doesn't need to recast it, he can pick it up and still continue to gain energy from Zenurik. Volt's Discharge doesn't need to be spammed.

Oberon? You want to benefit from the synergies, so you cast his Hallowed Ground, 50 energy. You then use Reckoning (100) to CC the enemies around you and strip them of armor while providing you cover so that you can cast his Renewal (25) safely on his Hallowed Ground and gain the synergy effect from that, Iron Renewal. While you are being healed, you are draining energy at a rate of 2 per second at base and 5 per second per ally. If you need to more? You don't get to move the Hallowed Ground, you recast it for another 50 energy. Etc....

 

Oberon is heavily reliant on using a stationary, high cost ability in order for his kit to work. He also lacks the durability to truly benefit from Rage in lategame scenarios to sustain his energy pool so that he can not only use the combos in his kit (Hallowed Ground followed by Reckoning then Renewal alone costs 175 energy before efficiency mods) but to upkeep the steep energy drain cost required to heal himself and allies, completely ignoring the fact he has only 100 base energy. Only true tanks like Chroma, Wukong, Inaros, Nidus, etc... really can consistently benefit from Rage in late game content.

Not only that, but he needs range so that his synergies work consistently, strength and duration so that his synergies are strong and last a decent amount of time, and efficiency because he has no way of gaining or reducing energy costs in his kit. Where do we fit survivability mods, rage, and the required Natural Talent due to his absurdly long cast time on Reckoning?

His kit relies *heavily* on the synergies within it in order to work, and Zenurik doesn't work while channeling Renewal, which is a very important part of his kit.

This all is WHY he needs energy regen and/or cost reduction built into his kit. He is extremely reliant on comboing his abilities together to make them work, similar to Limbo and Nidus.

[Akimbo]

18 minutes ago, Phalian said:

Yeah, this seems more like an "Ehh, this should keep them quiet for a while" and not an actually well thought out process. I mean some of these problems even seem obvious just on paper. Yes it's nice Hallowed Ground got wider. No, taking away it's natural armor utility and forcing you to cast it to make Renewal and Reckoning slightly viable just makes it an extra step. 

Let's take a look at Saryn for a moment, probably one of the best reworks so far. Each one of her abilities can stand on their own and have distinct uses while rewarding players to string them together AND has a way to regain energy. Oberon on the other hand has 1 AoE Heal and 3 abilities which on their own deal very little damage and spread Radiation... really? 

Saryn isn't a good example. She changed from 4 spam to 1 spam. No one really uses the synergy DE added because in most circumstances it's just a waste of time and energy. Just like Oberon.

[-Onyx-Phalian]

11 minutes ago, Akimbo said:

Saryn isn't a good example. She changed from 4 spam to 1 spam. No one really uses the synergy DE added because in most circumstances it's just a waste of time and energy. Just like Oberon.

While I am not arguing that some abilities would always fall short of the others, what I was meaning to get through with mentioning Saryn is that at least they have a clearly defined use. The ability for Oberon which still falls short is his Hallowed Ground and sadly we're stuck spamming it so that his Reckoning and Renewal can actually do SOMETHING. Right now his shift in play style feels as annoying as trying to level up a melee weapon with a Limbo as a team mate spamming Catacysm + Stasis so only he can have fun. 

[(PSN)psycofang]

Tbh some frames need an energy cost reduction, the 25-100 model is a very old one that doesnt take into account how often a skill is casted (volt) vs low energy pool spell mashers (Titania) or combo counter frames (limbo etc) and now Oberon fitting into the latter.

 

That and energy pools are pretty nonsense in this game anyway.

Edited April 28, 2017 by (PS4)psycofang

[Karixolu]

Currently, everything about Oberon seems find in my own opinion. His 2 allows for an area of denial, and some CC on RNG. The only issue I have are the energy costs, and his low energy pool. Change Hallowed Grounds cost to 35 Energy, and Renewal to 15 on activation, and he could be good all round-- And I compleatly agree with you on the part about Hollowed Grounds interaction on Renewal. If they're affected by Renewal, and step into hollowed ground, they should get the amour buff.

 

The hollowed Ground augment is also pants. I cannot for the life of me understand why they didn't make it so the hallowed ground follows you around in a circle instead of being stationary on the ground. Kinda like how Octavia's' 3 works. That way, it could be like " Don't fret, friends! Your paladin is here with BUFFS. And HEALING "

[Vafthrudnir]

You may give up on stat changes for base Oberon, you may try to influence prime release.

But if you do succeed remember to help mag's poor base energy, even for prime.

[Wrath_666]

My twopenneth.

I like Oberon but to use his abilities, namely Hallowed Ground and Reckoning, means a balancing act with strength/duration/efficiency/range. His powers just seem a bit too weak. What I'd like to see is his Hallowed Ground be similar to Frost's Ice Wave potentially with a similar augment mod but, more importantly, to remove duration from it and have it operate like Ember's World on Fire. Reckoning just needs a bit more strength behind it.

[Windy_Wind]

change his 4th health orb dropping from on Kill to on Hit would definitely make him much more decent. Why? Health Conversion and Equilibrium. 

Edited April 28, 2017 by Windy_Wind

[(PSN)TwilightGrim]

i found another thing that needs to be changed, smite.

powers strength should effect the percentage used, not the number of orbs, it is actively nerfing the orbs individual damage how it is

so two things need to be changed now:

-- make strength effect & not orb number on smite

-- make the armor debuff not have diminishing returns and be calculated off of the enemies total armor

[Leqesai]

2 minutes ago, (PS4)TwilightGrim said:

i found another thing that needs to be changed, smite.

powers strength should effect the percentage used, not the number of orbs, it is actively nerfing the orbs individual damage how it is

so two things need to be changed now:

-- make strength effect & not orb number on smite

-- make the armor debuff not have diminishing returns and be calculated off of the enemies total armor

I disagree that smite should not get more projectiles. That's how the ability has always worked and it is a major part of the fun.

 

They just need to put it back to 20 percent and make it so each projectile does the full 20 percent. That would solve this problem instantly.

[(PSN)TwilightGrim]

Just now, Leqesai said:

I disagree that smite should not get more projectiles. That's how the ability has always worked and it is a major part of the fun.

 

They just need to put it back to 20 percent and make it so each projectile does the full 20 percent. That would solve this problem instantly.

i would be fine if they each got 20%, BUT they are probably not going to do that because they already changed the stats of smite "trying" to appease people though it is still nerfing each orbs damage output. it would most likely be to see them switch what strength effects than to see them auto get 20% each, it might be "TOO OP" 

[Leqesai]

Just now, (PS4)TwilightGrim said:

i would be fine if they each got 20%, BUT they are probably not going to do that because they already changed the stats of smite "trying" to appease people though it is still nerfing each orbs damage output. it would most likely be to see them switch what strength effects than to see them auto get 20% each, it might be "TOO OP" 

It would be too op if the damage dealt bypassed armor and shields but it doesnt. 20x10 should theoretically mean that casting it on a target would do 200 percent the targets health in total damage. 

That's fine and op when your target has no armor or shields but most of the enemies have more armor and shields than health. 

 

[(PSN)TwilightGrim]

1 minute ago, Leqesai said:

It would be too op if the damage dealt bypassed armor and shields but it doesnt. 20x10 should theoretically mean that casting it on a target would do 200 percent the targets health in total damage. 

That's fine and op when your target has no armor or shields but most of the enemies have more armor and shields than health. 

 

smite is currently counting shields in its calculations

and if they were to fix the armor debuffing on his 4th you wouldn't need to do 200% damage my main issue was that:

--the calculation atm is 35% of health and shields, not ehp

--as you go up in strength, say 200% strength, you get 12 projectiles and that 35% is split between all of them, leaving you with 3% of the percentage per orb. now if the swapped it to add to the percentage it would currently give 70% total and divide that among 6 projectiles gives you 12% damage per orb

i feel that making each projectile deal 20% is crossing a line that DE seems to not be willing to cross

[Staggeringking]

My main issues with the Oberon buff is:

1. Difficult to re apply armour buff (allies need to be nearby and have feet on hallowed ground)

2. (Generally) Inaros and Nidus drain energy very quickly and make it so no one else can can have that constant regen from Renewal for very long

3. Allies should be able to know (easily) when the health regen from Renewal will stop.

Fix:

(1. & 2.) Give him a way to get energy while Renewal is toggled ON, this will make the armour buff and healing sustainable after the first cast. (standing/killing on hallowed ground?)

1. Only Oberon needs to stand on Hallowed Ground when casting Renewal to apply the armour buff

1. Give Hallowed Ground some vertical effect (if someone is standing on a box/rock nearby) 

2. Make Renewal cost to cast initially, and then only cost energy to heal missing health (before U20.3.1) this will save energy (might affect balance?)

2. Be able to de-select certain allies from Renewal, (personally I'd heal tank frames with sancti magistar rather than use all my energy on Renewal)

3. Add a timer to the regen when you toggle OFF Renwewal (like the armour buff has a lingering timer when) (yes it's free healing for a few seconds but imo worth for the quality of life and co-ordination, unless you always type in chat "Renewal off while i get energy, play safe, etc....")

Notes:

Oberon can still do what he used to do fine. (EXCEPT infinite cast range on Renewal, but it's ok, less pressure on you if someone dies across the map) the amour buff on HG pre-buff was pretty worthless so having it removed means nothing to me.

The bleedout mechanic is useless, only works if you're within approx. 50m from downed ally which takes like 1-2s to travel (Unless they have Renewal on at that moment which can be hit and miss unless you have a way to sustain your energy pool as well as Renewal at the same time)

I know some of these have been recommended in other posts but if DE reads this post and not others I'd rather put all the good EDIT:(some of my preferred) ideas in one place.

Edited April 28, 2017 by Staggeringking2
not to sound like a biggot

[Music4Therapy]

So basically the answer we've come to is "Oberon shouldn't be able to gain energy from his kit because Rage exists and other frames make do without"

*sigh* Frames should be able to atleast perform their basic functions without the use of mods. I can only imagine how difficult it is for new players to make use of this cost heavy kit. Even with mods the energy drain and costs are insane... and I run a positive duration max efficiency build. Just because other frames may have issues that doesn't justify Oberon having issues.

Edited April 28, 2017 by Music4Therapy

[LuckyCharm]

I agree. Oberon needs a fedora.

Wait we weren't talking about that? Okay.. oberon doesnt need the energy regen. Theres already too many ways to get energy back in game, and if you really want energy you'd not mod entirely for power strength. Take off the blind rage, throw on a streamline and see how muh energy you save. 

As for comparing him to frames.. if you remember hes NOT primed. So youd be comaparing him to frames like normal volt, normal trin, normal ash etc. Energy wise hes pretty on par. 

[NeonNemesis]

What should be done IMO

change the passive have him summon a spirit kubrow when he casts a skill and more casts heal the spirit kubrow. Next to the current passive, beastmaster looked like a good passive, I barely see Kavats or Kubrows in teams so I now don't have a passive at all.

Smite - revert to pre-rework, add a taunt to secondary orbs so that they attack the main target of smite.

Hallowed ground - give it Iron renewal upon touching it and armor strip when enemies are on top of it, the synergies make no sense as they make Oberon EN starving and this doesn't even look like a skill by itself.

Renewal - revert to pre-rework, get rid of reverse duration, keep the healing after full HP. When hitting allies in bleedout increases their bleedout for the time of the duration instead of showing 1 minute and then fading after 2 seconds.

Reckoning - increase it's area even equinox ulti that outclasses him vastly in damage has a bigger area. Have HP orbs drop if enemies are killed while radiated by Reckoning. 

[LuckyCharm]

22 minutes ago, Music4Therapy said:

So basically the answer we've come to is "Oberon shouldn't be able to gain energy from his kit because Rage exists and other frames make do without"

*sigh* Frames should be able to atleast perform their basic functions without the use of mods. I can only imagine how difficult it is for new players to make use of this cost heavy kit. Even with mods the energy drain and costs are insane... and I run a positive duration max efficiency build. Just because other frames may have issues that doesn't justify Oberon having issues.

You ever tried playing any of the other frames without mods? Without zenurik loki couldnt stay invis, ash couldnt kill more than 6 things, volt would rely entirely on his shield and nova would get one prime off every 3 defense waves and it'd barely slow things. 

Of course people are going to say use specific mods. Because theyre effective. Try make a speed nova without overextended. 

[Ceadeus]

I have to say, I have never been as disappointed by something in Warframe as I was by the Oberon rework. That's not to say that he's the worst thing in the game, but that he's not at all even close to what he should be. Granted, I love the change to the shape of Hallowed Ground and the most recent changes making Renewal a toggle are also helpful, however, DE and every person defending the Oberon rework seem Hell-bent on insisting that the radiation procs make the entire rework completely worth it. Clearly none of those people know how radiation works or they'd understand why it's about the worst proc in the game and nowhere near good enough to be building skills around it. Pretty much all the damage in Oberon's kit is trash, to which people like to say "But radiation and CC!" except that A. radiation only works well in groups and has NO functionality on a single target (Not that enemies won't just attack you anyway even with other enemies around just because F*** you) and B. the CC they're claiming is so good is a knockdown which only benefits from melee finishers, and if you're in melee range, then the enemies ARE going to attack you the moment they get up anyway, which completely nullifies the point of the radiation proc. So what we get is a frame that's gimped in every role except a nice passive heal (Though I might as well just play Nidus and pop my 4th now and then for a much greater effect AND nice damage) all for the sake of a proc that doesn't even relate to the frame aesthetically or thematically. He's PALADIN frame, not nuclear fallout frame, honestly, what the F***, DE?

Some people have put out videos showing how he can "survive" against a group of high level corrupted gunners, but all it really amounts to is spamming more abilities than should ever be necessary to the point that they need an energy restore every 10 seconds, proc'ing radiation on one enemy in the group, and then running and hiding while they all target each other. So why would someone not just play Nyx who can actually make enemies full allies or even just bring a high status weapon with radiation damage since that's all that Oberon's kit amounts to apparently anymore?