Skill synergy is an OPTION not a necessity

[Buddhakingpen]

I noticed this during a few different rework discussions, players seem to think that because skills synergize, that you must use them in that capacity at all times. This has almost never been the case, with nidus being the only exception.  

Every move stands on its own, regardless of if moves work with them or not. The fact that you're more enticed to use two skills together does not mean that you have to.  Thats just ridiculous. In almost every case, these moves from pre rework, to post rework, serve the same functionality, but get a little extra should you choose to use them with each other, but without codependency.  The fact that people are getting up in arms because frames are "energy hogs" just because you personally feel the need to use abilities more, is not the fault of anyone but the player themselves. DE should actually be applauded for giving players extra options, not ridiculed because our playerbase lacks the ability to manage their energy and has an urge to spam. 

That is all, judge away.

 

[Wrum]

15 minutes ago, Buddhakingpen said:

I noticed this during a few different rework discussions, players seem to think that because skills synergize, that you must use them in that capacity at all times. This has almost never been the case, with nidus being the only exception.  

Every move stands on its own, regardless of if moves work with them or not. The fact that you're more enticed to use two skills together does not mean that you have to.  Thats just ridiculous. In almost every case, these moves from pre rework, to post rework, serve the same functionality, but get a little extra should you choose to use them with each other, but without codependency.  The fact that people are getting up in arms because frames are "energy hogs" just because you personally feel the need to use abilities more, is not the fault of anyone but the player themselves. DE should actually be applauded for giving players extra options, not ridiculed because our playerbase lacks the ability to manage their energy and has an urge to spam. 

That is all, judge away.

 

bravo good sir.

[Fiftycentis]

17 minutes ago, Buddhakingpen said:

I noticed this during a few different rework discussions, players seem to think that because skills synergize, that you must use them in that capacity at all times. This has almost never been the case, with nidus being the only exception.  

Every move stands on its own, regardless of if moves work with them or not. The fact that you're more enticed to use two skills together does not mean that you have to.  Thats just ridiculous. In almost every case, these moves from pre rework, to post rework, serve the same functionality, but get a little extra should you choose to use them with each other, but without codependency.  The fact that people are getting up in arms because frames are "energy hogs" just because you personally feel the need to use abilities more, is not the fault of anyone but the player themselves. DE should actually be applauded for giving players extra options, not ridiculed because our playerbase lacks the ability to manage their energy and has an urge to spam. 

That is all, judge away.

 

^^^^^^^^^^^

for example, i can go with ember with only wof active, i can go with her using only the accellerant (with augment), use both to get tons of damage, but no reason to do the last thing with low lvl enemies
or frost, i can use the avalanche to stop enemies, globe to defend, or globe on freezed enemies to launch them against a wall and kill them

and as said before, remove the "PSA" since it's allowed only to forum mods

[Chipputer]

This is why early feedback from reworks is so awful.

People who mained the frame before it got reworked are usually the ones to listen to when a frame gets changed, at least early on. After about a week, or so, the community, at large, might have some more substantial testing to back up their feedback. The problem is that said community will focus too much on the changes, themselves, rather than seeing how the changes affect their play style.

The other problem with people trying to force the synergies into their play styles is that said synergies aren't always going to scale into their 3 hour Mot runs as effectively as they want which causes them to cry foul on them.

[(PSN)abbacephas]

44 minutes ago, Buddhakingpen said:

I noticed this during a few different rework discussions, players seem to think that because skills synergize, that you must use them in that capacity at all times. This has almost never been the case, with nidus being the only exception.  

Every move stands on its own, regardless of if moves work with them or not. The fact that you're more enticed to use two skills together does not mean that you have to.  Thats just ridiculous. In almost every case, these moves from pre rework, to post rework, serve the same functionality, but get a little extra should you choose to use them with each other, but without codependency.  The fact that people are getting up in arms because frames are "energy hogs" just because you personally feel the need to use abilities more, is not the fault of anyone but the player themselves. DE should actually be applauded for giving players extra options, not ridiculed because our playerbase lacks the ability to manage their energy and has an urge to spam. 

That is all, judge away.

 

100% agree.

[PsiWarp]

Indeed, it's all about energy management. At the moment, Iron Renewal, Reckoning extra damage, and HG + Reck Armor debuff are just nice-to-have bonuses that can help you through the Star Chart when you can afford them or have set up the right conditions to trigger them. His damage handles low-mid levels well, while his CC (though admittedly not always reliable) is what will carry him into endless missions for a reasonably long time.

In the wake of Nidus, Octavia and Limbo Redux who all have energy recharge capabilities and are borderline overpowered for today's content, it's not surprising that people would want the same for Oberon as well, who has been stuck in mediocrity for ages.

[W01fe]

3 hours ago, Buddhakingpen said:

I noticed this during a few different rework discussions, players seem to think that because skills synergize, that you must use them in that capacity at all times. This has almost never been the case, with nidus being the only exception.  

Every move stands on its own, regardless of if moves work with them or not. The fact that you're more enticed to use two skills together does not mean that you have to.  Thats just ridiculous. In almost every case, these moves from pre rework, to post rework, serve the same functionality, but get a little extra should you choose to use them with each other, but without codependency.  The fact that people are getting up in arms because frames are "energy hogs" just because you personally feel the need to use abilities more, is not the fault of anyone but the player themselves. DE should actually be applauded for giving players extra options, not ridiculed because our playerbase lacks the ability to manage their energy and has an urge to spam. 

That is all, judge away.

 

i personally disagree.  i mean kinda, not starkly.  I think that skill synergy is good, but skills standing on there own can be good as well.

an example of how that doesnt work at a base level is ash's shurikens.  at its base it does subpar damage, there is no reason to use it especially at higher levels.  However if you made it worth using purely based off of damage the only thing you will do is wind up with builds that do nothing but go invisible and spam 1.  I am a firm believer that if a build revolves around pressing 1 button the entire time then its a mechanically poor build regardless of how well it does.

Now you can add synergy to ash's 1 as an example.  Anything really.  But to fit ash, allow it to keep your melee combo counter going (basically the shuriken acts as a melee strike does in this regard).  Now it has a use outside of damage, that doesnt warrant it being spammed.  Some people might say that it would still never be used but ive been in plenty of situations even with body count that i could have used it to keep my multiplier up.  

This is the big weakness to abilities in this game standing purely on there own, it waters down the gameplay to press x and win (as example again, ash's old 4).

Now im not saying you should have to use all 4 of your abilities all the time, but having 2-3 that feed off eachother in a synergistic manner isn't a bad thing in itself.  its a question of whether the pre-existing game mechanics (mainly energy) allow it.

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

2 hours ago, W01fe said:

.

Just pointing out that BS does it already regardless for those new to him.

Teleport is finisher and is able to substain naramon beein melee mobility, BS is able to substain Trickery and allready substains combo from a up to 50m range, SB is invisibility that resets stealth multipliers and seeking adds armor depell to them....all of his abilitys center around the idea to get the most outa the invisibility and melee/preferably slash damage the game provides, is thus a perfect example for synergy that is just what op described, optional, not a necessity due to its sheer flexibility.

 

I see why people would still complain about oberon tho who took the playstyle of a tank whilst lacking the basic duration on his builds to cover the enery costs...You run outa incoming damage, you out of energy.

You can get somewhat efficiency outa renewal without harming your range, what's still a factor,  but everything else is essencialy doomed to drain the full cost of a ability for spells that only last about 30+ seconds, if even.

Still waiting for the rework and i planned me a energy reservoir build which includes P Flow but i'm REALLY curious how that'll play out in actuall gameplay.

 

 

[W01fe]

1 minute ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

Just pointing out that BS does it already regardless for those new to him.

Teleport is finisher and is able to substain naramon beein melee mobility, BS is able to substain Trickery and allready substains combo from a up to 50m range, SB is invisibility that resets stealth multipliers and seeking adds armor depell to them....all of his abilitys center around the idea to get the most outa the invisibility and melee/preferably slash damage the game provides, is thus a perfect example for synergy that is just what op described, optional, not a necessity due to its sheer flexibility.

 

I see why people would still complain about oberon tho who took the playstyle of a tank whilst lacking the basic duration on his builds to cover the enery costs...You run outa incoming damage, you out of energy.

You can get somewhat efficiency outa renewal without harming your range, what's still a factor,  but everything else is essencialy doomed to drain the full cost of a ability for spells that only last about 30+ seconds, if even.

Still waiting for the rework and i planned me a energy reservoir build which includes P Flow but i'm REALLY curious how that'll play out in actuall gameplay.

 

 

your quote and state things in a poorly constructed manner.  your pointing out that BS (im assuming bladestorm) does it already (what does it do? provide synergy)

teleport is finisher? do you mean teleport does a finisher? no it doesnt, only when modded does it.  teleport does open up a target to a finisher at base (without mod) but more often then not your better off being stealthed, parkour over and stealth kill it.  especially with a lot of enemies around.

WTF does substain mean, im pretty sure its no ta word i cant even find it on google search.  sustains?  

im not talking about mods when i say something should have synergy, without mods is what im referring to.  mods should add another effect or change how you use it, not be the only way to make it useful.

 

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

11 minutes ago, W01fe said:

.

Bladestorm

2 hours ago, W01fe said:

 keep's your melee combo counter going

allready as it is, working perfectly with body count and blood rush (a factor atlas land slide never mastered sadly)

And mods, or rather auguments, are a factor in this game nowadays, if you like it or not. The question is only, does the correspondig frame allow them or not, what is simply the case with frames like ash or banshee who got the kit to back it up. It's easy as that really.

 

Oberon, who is still the eyecatcher in this thread on the other side does not as all his abilitys got a starting duration of 20 seconds (hallowed reckoning even starts at 10!), which is in conflict with needet range, builds and even efficiency.

One can only hope for his prime to have a propper armor rating, which may lower his need for power strength in the future, should DE decide to keep his kit untouched in it's current state.

Edited May 3, 2017 by (PS4)CoolD2108

[Nazrethim]

4 minutes ago, W01fe said:

-snip-

He's a munchkin, don't bother. I tried in vain for hours to show him that no frame should be balanced around focus, arcanes or very specific mod setups, but rather work with base stats on base equipment. Waste of time.

Ash indeed has only 2 synergies.

His passive with Shuriken and Blade Storm. And Smoke Screen with Blade Storm. But since his passive is always active technically doesn't count, and Smoke Screen is DE's (poor) attempt to handle the ridiculously high cost per mark the slapped Blade Storm with (in case you don't know, for large crowds of enemies, the effective cost of BS went up by 200 to 600% after revisit).

Ash in fact has 2 ability overlaps (that is, two abilities that kinda do the same). Blade Storm applies bleeds... so why use shuriken at all? Blade Storm costs 15 per mark and goes target by target. Teleport with Augment costs around 12 energy and can actually oneshot the target in a single strike. If you use BS for small crowds, which is the only really practical way to use it, it overlaps with Teleport.

There are ways to fix this, to add synergy without making it mandatory, but that requires a rework and BS turned into a Stance ultimate, or in a totally different ability.

[W01fe]

Just now, Nazrethim said:

He's a munchkin, don't bother. I tried in vain for hours to show him that no frame should be balanced around focus, arcanes or very specific mod setups, but rather work with base stats on base equipment. Waste of time.

Ash indeed has only 2 synergies.

His passive with Shuriken and Blade Storm. And Smoke Screen with Blade Storm. But since his passive is always active technically doesn't count, and Smoke Screen is DE's (poor) attempt to handle the ridiculously high cost per mark the slapped Blade Storm with (in case you don't know, for large crowds of enemies, the effective cost of BS went up by 200 to 600% after revisit).

Ash in fact has 2 ability overlaps (that is, two abilities that kinda do the same). Blade Storm applies bleeds... so why use shuriken at all? Blade Storm costs 15 per mark and goes target by target. Teleport with Augment costs around 12 energy and can actually oneshot the target in a single strike. If you use BS for small crowds, which is the only really practical way to use it, it overlaps with Teleport.

There are ways to fix this, to add synergy without making it mandatory, but that requires a rework and BS turned into a Stance ultimate, or in a totally different ability.

my hope was to use ash as an example rather then turn this thread into a ash thread so ive avoided discussion about it specifically further.  Ill just agree to disagree and let this thread continue with its intended subject.  :)

[Nazrethim]

Just now, W01fe said:

my hope was to use ash as an example rather then turn this thread into a ash thread so ive avoided discussion about it specifically further.  Ill just agree to disagree and let this thread continue with its intended subject.  :)

Indeed. Let's not go there, it's a silly place.

Edited May 3, 2017 by Nazrethim
Hooray for Monty Python!

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

By avoiding the topic and focusing on ash, great job you're doing, both of you :)

[Nazrethim]

We were actually agreeing with the OP and using Ash as an example. There are other cases of this.

For example Saryn, while a terrifying nuker on her own right, has this specific ability set up. That's bad synergy as on their own the abilities don't really do much.

Rhino on the other hand features good synergy:

Iron Skin does it's job. Rhino Charge does it's job. Get them together and you Blast proc any unfortunate grunt in your path.

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

25 minutes ago, Nazrethim said:

 

For example Saryn, while a terrifying nuker on her own right, has this specific ability set up. That's bad synergy as on their own the abilities don't really do much.

 

This is in all fairness most likely due to a bug in her spore mechanic.

 

Spores should according to the wiki scale off and spread toxic proccs alongside the spores if toxic is present, taking the sum of all present toxic proccs into consideration, which is really not the case.

Toxic leash would be worth the use and spores of course scale themselfes up with continiuing destruction if it wasn't for this loss, which would make her an excellent nuker.

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

Thing is that it's not that simple as to just blame it onto the players inability to pick the correct situation to use a synergy ...

 

The representatives of this kinda synergy all share a certain efficiency or power management by default after all. 

Saryns spores are her first ability and they're made cheaper if cast on her molt, if it is even necessary in the first place as they spread resetting its counter. Iron Skin can be ideally a permanent ability while his charge is his first ability too. And example nidus can just regain energy for and from his first two abilitys.... They're rather obvious to mod and able to provide efficient results, even if fully played to theyr potential.

A exceptation like oberon on the other side need strong, sometimes conflicting builds due to lacking base-stats on his abilitys (duration-still needing range, not that big of a factor for example chroma, strength to even make power management possible and his abilitys worth using), just to get something out of his 2; 3. and 4. ... not as efficient abilitys.

Even tho it clearly goes against your agenda but it's not enough for abilitys to just provide something but they gotta work too, which is just not the case sometimes.

Edited May 3, 2017 by (PS4)CoolD2108

[taiiat]

4 hours ago, W01fe said:

an example of how that doesnt work at a base level is ash's shurikens. at its base it does subpar damage, there is no reason to use it especially at higher levels.

TIL that with ZERO Mods, spending 12.5 Energy to deal 2,687.5 Damage (2,187.5 of which Ignores Armor/Shield) to an Enemy is 'subpar and terrible'.

[Suira]

You are correct. However, when DE makes abilities that work together as in Oberon's Hollowed Ground and Renewal to get Iron Renewal and then make it difficult to actually perform them together properly it causes issues. It causes even more issues when they are balanced around these ideas.

[LuckyCharm]

Personally i prefer when skills are varied and not necessarily synergised. Loki being my go-to frame for any and all things. His skills do set things. All of them are strong but they mostly are situational use skills rather than synergy. 

Synergised skills however tend to prod me to use them optimally which however useful makes me feel like im being wasteful with my energy sometimes if i dont. 

Probably the reason i dont play the new saryn. Using multiple skills to kill all the things is most of the time slower than just killing them outright with another frame. Guess im weird tho

[Doomsknightmare]

Well said. I'm looking at u my dear Hollowed Ground 

[Nyazminx]

You, my sir, have hit the nail on the head

[W01fe]

4 hours ago, taiiat said:

TIL that with ZERO Mods, spending 12.5 Energy to deal 2,687.5 Damage (2,187.5 of which Ignores Armor/Shield) to an Enemy is 'subpar and terrible'.

Yes it is.  Due to enemy scaling 

[taiiat]

1 hour ago, W01fe said:

Yes it is.  Due to enemy scaling 

as if you'd deliberately use Zero Mods vs high Level Enemies
can easily be 6,745.625 per 3.125 Energy, 5,490.625 of which Armor/Shield Ignore... which is plenty to Kill Enemies within reasonable Level Ranges (lv60 area might start to get sketchy for oneshot).

[Nazrethim]

5 hours ago, taiiat said:

TIL that with ZERO Mods, spending 12.5 Energy to deal 2,687.5 Damage (2,187.5 of which Ignores Armor/Shield) to an Enemy is 'subpar and terrible'.

 

1 hour ago, W01fe said:

Yes it is.  Due to enemy scaling 

Enemy scaling is broken anyway. The measurements must be made at around lvl 50-70 enemies, beyond that we are going into munchkin territory.

With that said, Shuriken damage is fine IMO. The only problem I find with it is that you can't really aim the shuriken as they fly into whatever target you had closer to you. Want to Shuriken an osprey? too bad, they flew straight into a crewman.

Now Conclave Shuriken is another thing entirely, it fires a single shuriken dealing 50 points of Puncture damage and no Bleed, doesn't track unless you keep your sight on the target and the flying arc makes it really unreliable as it tends to collide with terrain. Now, 50 Puncture seems okay for frames with 140/150 health shield on average, until you factor in damage modifiers of health types. Shuriken deals 40 damage to shields, which doesn't seem like a big deal until you realise the damage overflow to health is calculated after the shield reduction meaning you deal less damage if your target has 1 point of shield. Health on the other hand gets bonus damage of 50% due to Ferrite armor, which means Shuriken against health deals 75 points of damage, however, previously, you would deal 90 because they were 2 shurikens that dealt 30 damage each. Shuriken hitbox is also tiny, which mean if you do a precision cast to hit someone without having to keep your sights (because you are in a hectic fight with no time to stop and only twich aim is the option) you are S#&$ out of luck, because the tiny hitbox means you need to land a wierd-fly-arc projectile with zero seeking capabilities into a target that moves just as fast in any direction as the shuriken.

But then again, virtually all of Ash's abilities in Conclave are several degrees of pointless outside of very very very specific situations, and even then, you are more likely to waste energy.

Edited May 3, 2017 by Nazrethim