An Essay About Universal Vacuum

[Mr.ToastForPresident]

Everyone probably knows that Universal vacuum is the hottest new topic that gets millions of internet points just for saying how good it is. For me, it is the latest new way to use for high school English writing classes to good use by writing page long essays on video games that really shouldn't matter in the long run. The question really now is, what can I bring to the table that no one else rambles about in their posts?

Well, let's first look at other games. In most action RPG's, they have loot drop from enemies and require the players to pick them up. For example, Kingdom Hearts has a very similar loot system to Warframe, where killing enemies drop loot, money munny, health, and mana. Simple, right? Now look at this wonderfully created graph:

As you can see, the further you move up the chart, the higher the enemy levels become and the more resources are required for the player to catch up to the enemy. Resources mean things like the game's currency, any experience needed, and any sorts of items needed for better gear. As the game progresses, more and more is needed for the player to move forward. Most games use this system, especially in the realm of RPG's. For players to get more resources, game designers resort to two things, drop more loot or increase the pickup range. Games like Dark Souls has enemies drop larger and larger amount of souls as the game progresses, and games like Kingdom Hearts does both. What this does is keep a healthy sense of progression throughout the game, making the player feeling more accomplished, even though the progression is about the same. For Kingdom Hearts, increasing the range of which you pick up drops is a higher level ability that gets better as you level. The reason why pick up range is a higher level ability is because the resources needed to progress also goes up along with the player, so the player is more likely going to need to pickup more items along the way so the increased range makes sense.

But for every positive, there needs to be a opposite negative reaction to balance it out. Getting stronger in video games means that the game also gets stronger alongside with you in order to complete the cycle. For increased item pickup range, the negative can be offset be two things, high price into entry, or using up valuable ability points. For example, in Ratchet and Clank, having increased pickup range requires some sort of task out of the player to receive. 

Now lets look at games without item vacuum. Doom is a fast paced shooter requiring a lot from the player in order to pass the level. The player in Doom has to walk up to items in order to receive them, and there is no way to increase that range. That is because that game encourages exploration and high risk high reward gameplay. There is no progression in terms of player level, but more like entering different places to experience new things. Having the ability to pickup items further away could potentially ruin that experience of what the designer's intentions of what they want their game to be.

So why don't players have increased pickup range or get more loot in early game in most games? That is because the developers have their intentions of what they want their players to experience in those early parts of the game. If players can just get everything from the get go, there is a loss in the sense of progression and the feeling of getting better and stronger throughout the game.

Now that we got that out of the way, let's go back to Warframe and the idea of Universal Vacuum. Let's look at the graph of what warframe's version of resources to enemy level:

As you can see, things are a bit more complicated in Warframe. The sense of progression just stops somewhere in midgame, then at late game, stops existing all together. The problem for that is a whole 'nother topic for a different day and two essays later, so I'm just going to ignore that for now.

What we really need to focus on is the early game when it comes to talking about universal vacuum. As said earlier, giving players higher pickup range in early levels could potentially ruin the early game sense of progression. I think that is why DE is so hesitant about bringing up the topic of Universal Vacuum to everyone and everything. There has to be a cost to entry, something player earned instead of ruining the economy of the game. Where is the opportunity costs when it comes to universal vacuum, where is the opposite opposing force in order to keep the balance??

You see, in game design not everything has to be built for the player's convenience. Maze like level design, wacky inventories, clunky controls, etc; these can all be part of the experience. The Dark Soul series uses it's maze like level design to create the sense of confusion and adventure throughout their games, System Shock 2 uses their relatively restricted inventory to emphasis resource management, and the early horror games like Resident Evil and Silent Hill use their controls to give claustrophobic feel. Warframe uses their modding system in order to have players pick and choose how they would like to play the game. Adding vacuum as a mod for warframe is bad since every build is too restricted for any more mods to be put in, and the same goes with Kavats and Kubrows.

So let's make a compromise in order to get universal vacuum in the game. DE sure doesn't want to add it in for everything and is trying to make up reasons why not to add it, and using the above statements, it is not hard to see why. So then we have to add in the factor of negative or sense of progression in order to give a universal vacuum. First, keep Sentinel vacuum as an option for players who don't mind having vacuum on sentinels. Next, have players earn another way to get vacuum without the use of mods, that way new players have another goal to accomplish, adding to the sense of progression. One way to do this is by giving only prime frames vacuum, that way vacuum is still an option, but also a goal for newer players ti get primed frames. The only problem is that it leaves out players who wish to play frames that don't have primed versions yet that also want to keep their pets. So here's another alternate solutions:

Yes, Cephalon Simaris should be able to sell a gear version of Vacuum. Much like his scanners, these vacuums should be upgradable with increased range and infinite uses, each one contributing to the goal of progression as well as adding some sort of negative to offset it. Equip the vacuum on one of your gear slots, bind it to you favorite key, and then you are good to go. Sure people would still want it given for free to everyone that has the brains to log in, but it is quite obvious that DE doesn't want to do that. Instead of listing why it is good for you and other people and it has no apparent downside, take a more analytical approach and post examples and sources just like any other writer would do.

Hopefully, we as a community can agree on something that both satisfies our needs and the DE's goals, and I appreciate your time for reading my post. If anything, I hope those pictures are good enough to keep you distracted. Please give this to your favorite youtubers if you like too, and maybe they can give me a reason to make my parents proud of me.

Let's keep the tl;dr posts to a minimum.

[O.O_]

4 minutes ago, Mr.ToastForPresident said:

DE sure doesn't want to add it in for everything and is trying to make up reasons why not to add it

= pointless threat.

[Mr.ToastForPresident]

Just now, O.O_ said:

= pointless threat.

Thanks man

[O.O_]

Just now, Mr.ToastForPresident said:

Thanks man

No problem

[W4RM3CH4N1C]

I actually found that to be a very interesting and amusing read - excellent work!

[Monybags33]

I liked the post personally myself. Amusing drawings and a good read on this topic for once. Though the second wall of text Iv seen today, this one was worth it. That's very rare.

Good job.

Edited May 17, 2017 by Monybags33

[freeformline]

I had never thought of Vacuum itself as a point of player progression rather than as a tool to achieve progression faster, and I like the idea. Perhaps the vacuum in a non-mod form could be linked to an early quest, like Stolen Dreams (whose current ending and nominal reward are so far beyond anticlimactically unsatisfying that I would prefer to have never done it)? It could be the first arcane available, especially if arcanes are given a minor rework so they aren't linked to cosmetics.

[Irireon]

[selfthought]I actually read through this? Wow. [/selfthought]

Good post and I want that drawing of Simaris as a glyph. 

[Jeoxz]

Nice essay, maybe make the conclusion more in-line with the whole paper instead of a compromise.

 

[TankHunter678]

I do not necessarily agree.

 

Each game you mention is more of an RPG then warframe, but they are not built exclusively around the acquisition of massive amounts of resources. Each of them is fully capable of being beaten with minimalist amounts of grinding. Grinding out to high levels and getting all the stuff makes it easier, but straight skill can win the game for you.

Warframe is not like that. It is built around obtaining massive amounts of resources needed for even the most basic things we take for granted. Something I was reminded of today when I was playing with a friend who recently joined the game. They still do not have their first sentinel yet, they lack vacuum. We need to do 2 or even 3 missions with them to get them similar amounts of resources I can get in a single run.

They also die a lot more then I do because they have to spend more time among the enemy to pick up resources, they are constantly slowed down and fall behind to pick up drops.

Me and another friend simply cannot wait till they have Taxon done and leveled up enough for using Vacuum, because it will be such a massive efficiency and survivability boost for our friend starting out. As they will be able to bullet jump in, bullet jump out like we do.

 

Also I do not agree with the notion of there needing to be a cost or downside to it. It is required to be efficient, because of this it restricts everything. Leave it as a mod and whatever the mod goes on will be run by 95% of the community to the exclusion of all other options. Make it prime frame only and the market will crash as prices get out of control, while people will be declaring that DE is being even more pay to win. Throw it in as a syndicate thing and you make it even worse for the new players and those who simply do not like the syndicate stuff.

 

If you make it inherent then people will be happy, but otherwise nothing bad will happen to the game. In fact, only good things will happen as the variety of things being used will increase. New players will have an easier time entering the game and it will be easier for clans to help get them up to speed and having fun.

[Sziklamester]

Interesting writing and have some sense of the progression part but this is just a qol addition which makes the looting easier and better. I do not know the kingdom hearts but the old dooms not meant loot everything and the map design allowed to pick up that less loot easily. Warframe is a fast paced game with a larger scale rooms and the drop can fall out of the map or spawn to the spawnpoint.

The problem with adding as a gear the next if you not make it automatic then often you need to stop down and press the gear which kills the game mobility and give a chance to the mobs to shot you down. If automatic then still have a downside because eats a slot which could be useful for another items.

I am agree need a learning curve and a sense of progression but a innate 5 meter vacuum range could not hurt this progression because at least have a range and no need to tbagging on the loots to get it and still force the player (encourage) to go and be mobile which is the mean of this game. Adding this to primes and companions only is a force to choose these over regular frames and companions and creates a more pay to win atmosphere which is anti player which means more leaving from the game as well a bad reputation.

Personally this ability should be a frame passive and with the limited range everybody wins because it keeps the progression and the players can get fast enough the loots. Also this game not meant to be a hardcore game like dark souls it is a basic scifi themed tps with casual friendly systems because the devs want as many player as many they can get into the game. It is their duty to keep us interested to play the game and make us progress which is not bad at all but the two needs to be separated.

Thanks your writing hope you read my thoughts. Thankies.

[Mr.ToastForPresident]

5 minutes ago, TankHunter678 said:

I do not necessarily agree.

 

Each game you mention is more of an RPG then warframe, but they are not built exclusively around the acquisition of massive amounts of resources. Each of them is fully capable of being beaten with minimalist amounts of grinding. Grinding out to high levels and getting all the stuff makes it easier, but straight skill can win the game for you.

Warframe is not like that. It is built around obtaining massive amounts of resources needed for even the most basic things we take for granted. Something I was reminded of today when I was playing with a friend who recently joined the game. They still do not have their first sentinel yet, they lack vacuum. We need to do 2 or even 3 missions with them to get them similar amounts of resources I can get in a single run.

They also die a lot more then I do because they have to spend more time among the enemy to pick up resources, they are constantly slowed down and fall behind to pick up drops.

Me and another friend simply cannot wait till they have Taxon done and leveled up enough for using Vacuum, because it will be such a massive efficiency and survivability boost for our friend starting out. As they will be able to bullet jump in, bullet jump out like we do.

 

Also I do not agree with the notion of there needing to be a cost or downside to it. It is required to be efficient, because of this it restricts everything. Leave it as a mod and whatever the mod goes on will be run by 95% of the community to the exclusion of all other options. Make it prime frame only and the market will crash as prices get out of control, while people will be declaring that DE is being even more pay to win. Throw it in as a syndicate thing and you make it even worse for the new players and those who simply do not like the syndicate stuff.

 

If you make it inherent then people will be happy, but otherwise nothing bad will happen to the game. In fact, only good things will happen as the variety of things being used will increase. New players will have an easier time entering the game and it will be easier for clans to help get them up to speed and having fun.

Really, if there was no inherent downside to universal vacuum, then why hasn't DE made universal vacuum yet? Why have they been so stubborn on making universal vacuum a thing? This was the question that I asked myself before I made this post.

Now ask yourself this, what is the downside for giving every player everything they have ever needed in playing the game? Why not just give every god mode just for the sake of it?

The answer seems obvious, because it will get boring.

But why? Why does it get boring?

Well it is most likely because after a while, the game doesn't present much of a challenge. But why do people want a challange? Well, it could be because completing something hard gives the sense of accomplishment, and your brain pumps in some dopamine and you feel happy.

For game designers, they have to balance out what to give and what not to give the players in order to have them coming back. Giving the players too much can easily burn out the player, while giving them too little can frustrate them. The goal of the designer is to give the player's a sense of progression throughout the game, whether it being exploring new places, continuing the story, and getting new and shiny items.

Warframe operates the same way, to give player some progression to keep them playing. Giving them vacuum could potentially ruin that early game progression by giving the players the items they already need at the start and thus reaching the midpoint of the game faster. This is horrible for them as they are going to experience burnout a lot faster since they would already have enough items to realize that this game serves nothing else.

(There is also the fact that this game is free-to-play, which DE keeps resources trapped behind plat-walls to trick newer players who don't know much into spending plat on resources)

You may say that my worries are just pure speculation without any proof of having a downside, but the same could be said for you saying there is only positives for universal vacuum.

Also, to the point of RPG's. Those systems of getting loot in RPG's are specifically designed to give the player a sense of progression. They may not be needed, but sure do wonders in making the player feel accomplished. That is why a lot of non-RPG's adpated a system of getting loot and leveling up. Heck, that is what the American Dream was built off of, getting more and more as time goes on. Restricting what players get on earlier levels helps make getting to the point in latter levels when they are able to get more loot  much more impactful.

What most of this boils down to is human psychology. The developers are playing a game with our minds in order to get us to play more or to spend more. It this weird thing in game design that keeps me curious and why I like making these long analytical posts.

But where do these long posts get us? There are hundreds of threads advocating a universal vacuum, none of which has gotten anywhere. They keep saying things like "there is no downside, most players would be happy for it to be there!", and I agree for the most part. I would also like to use my Kavat without having to scrounge the floor for resources, but I can't yet. So I wanted to find the middle ground, where ever that was, in order to find something that not only satisfies the playerbase, but also the developers.

[TankHunter678]

Comparing an aura that picks up items in a radius around you to giving a player god mode is beyond the comparison range even with a maxed out Stretch with Overextended.

It also makes the argument you are trying to make have a lot less impact for me.

 

Picking up loot is not a challenge, unless said loot is behind an actual designed challenge that you need to overcome. In this scenario the loot would not be able to be grabbed by vacuum however. The player would need to actually walk up and interact with said loot. Seeing that chest open up with the light shinning obscuring your vision as you await link holding up the item that will help you navigate the dungeon gives you a sense of achievement. Because you overcame the challenge that was keeping you from the loot.

Running over a round container that is colored blue does not.

It gives no sense of progression.

It gives no sense of achievement.

There is no sense of challenge.

 

How does giving universal vacuum ruin the progression for the early player? They are still stuck with needing to progress through the star map, they are still stuck with only the resource available to the planets within their reach, they are still stuck with a large amount of mastery rank locked gear out of their reach. They still have to spend upwards of days to make basic usable gear, and all those neat frames they would like to try are locked away outside of their reach until they progress through the star map and mastery rank system.

The things they want are already locked behind either a pay wall, or a time and play wall. So why should they have to struggle to get basic resources while being shot?

 

Let me tell you one thing though, the lack of universal Vacuum holds back my progression. I have a Kubrow, named after one of the dogs I cherished and loved in real life that passed away. Unfortunately he is not useful enough, because he lacks vacuum, for me to justify taking him out of stasis. Or investing in more stasis pods so I can give him buddies. My progression with Kubrows, kavats, and helminth is stalled simply because to go without vacuum is too big of a deficit. And the vast majority of the community agrees with that.

So to me Universal Vacuum is not just a quality of life improvement that frees up a small amount of mod points, it unlocks an entire section of mods and companions that I would otherwise barely touch at all.

 

It is also a overall increase in the revenue DE can get. With universal vacuum it comes down to how useful the companion is, not because of one single ability. It would lead to more Kubrows, more Kavats, more Helminth Chargers, and more people going fashionframe on their pets. A new player wont get told not to bother because those companions lack a very useful effect.

[bronzebonobo]

first problem: some primed frames are vaulted, leaving you no choice unless you want to castrate you wallet, to use the base frame

i guess the symaris thing would work, but would not be happy with it

second problem: just because vacuum would be put into warframes doesn't mean it should have a downside, it's qol, plenty of other games have a mechanic where loot is automatically picked up from everywhere, don't know why they are so damn reluctant

Other thing is planet resources are not tradeable, and with the huge amounts of time walls in this game, it evens out you being able to have vacuum innately on a frame because time gating

third problem: if they are going to screw over vacuum, they better leave sentinel vacuum alone, don't even touch it

[Mr.ToastForPresident]

35 minutes ago, TankHunter678 said:

Comparing an aura that picks up items in a radius around you to giving a player god mode is beyond the comparison range even with a maxed out Stretch with Overextended.

It also makes the argument you are trying to make have a lot less impact for me.

 

Picking up loot is not a challenge, unless said loot is behind an actual designed challenge that you need to overcome. In this scenario the loot would not be able to be grabbed by vacuum however. The player would need to actually walk up and interact with said loot. Seeing that chest open up with the light shinning obscuring your vision as you await link holding up the item that will help you navigate the dungeon gives you a sense of achievement. Because you overcame the challenge that was keeping you from the loot.

Running over a round container that is colored blue does not.

It gives no sense of progression.

It gives no sense of achievement.

There is no sense of challenge.

 

How does giving universal vacuum ruin the progression for the early player? They are still stuck with needing to progress through the star map, they are still stuck with only the resource available to the planets within their reach, they are still stuck with a large amount of mastery rank locked gear out of their reach. They still have to spend upwards of days to make basic usable gear, and all those neat frames they would like to try are locked away outside of their reach until they progress through the star map and mastery rank system.

The things they want are already locked behind either a pay wall, or a time and play wall. So why should they have to struggle to get basic resources while being shot?

 

Let me tell you one thing though, the lack of universal Vacuum holds back my progression. I have a Kubrow, named after one of the dogs I cherished and loved in real life that passed away. Unfortunately he is not useful enough, because he lacks vacuum, for me to justify taking him out of stasis. Or investing in more stasis pods so I can give him buddies. My progression with Kubrows, kavats, and helminth is stalled simply because to go without vacuum is too big of a deficit. And the vast majority of the community agrees with that.

So to me Universal Vacuum is not just a quality of life improvement that frees up a small amount of mod points, it unlocks an entire section of mods and companions that I would otherwise barely touch at all.

 

It is also a overall increase in the revenue DE can get. With universal vacuum it comes down to how useful the companion is, not because of one single ability. It would lead to more Kubrows, more Kavats, more Helminth Chargers, and more people going fashionframe on their pets. A new player wont get told not to bother because those companions lack a very useful effect.

I never said picking up loot was a challenge. Picking up loot is a restriction on the players in order to create a sense of progression. The point of picking up loot is to hold back progression. The reason why developers put in place these restrictions is to spread out progression without giving the newer players too much at the start.

Here is one example I could come up with. Imagine if the player buys an Ubisoft game (just making this up, since any other publisher would be stupid enough to make this mistake) which has a pre-order bonus that gets them this cool shotgun for the next tower climbing simulator. This shotgun is not the most powerful thing in the game, but it sure does make all lot of earlier stuff pretty trivial. What kind of effect will this have on the player as they progress through the game? Maybe it isn't a shotgun, maybe it is a fast car, or some other qol thing the plan to add in their pre-order bonus. How will this affect the game as a whole?

DE knows that if they add in universal vacuum, something is going to change about their dynamics of the game. They know that by giving players this power, they would have to do something to balance it out in order to save the progression throughout the game.

Ever wonder why there always seems to be a new resource that crops up that is rarer and relatively harder to get then their previous resources? Ever wonder why their exists Nitain, Oxium, Cryotics, and Kuva, resources that cannot be easily picked up but earned another way? That is DE's response to that lack of progression for veteran players. They want players to have something to aim towards, always pushing them towards the grind.

If newer players were to get a substantial amount more materials than usual, DE response wouldn't be all sunshines and rainbows, but rather to increase the grind onto them. They are trying desperately to keep a steady progression for newer players in order for them to keep coming back.

I know that a lot of this pick up thing feels very forced. Why do I have to walk over every trashcan in Bioshock and manually pick-up every item?  That doesn't give me any sense of achievement or challenge. But there has to be a reason behind it, or they would not have designed the game like that. Same thing with Warframe. There is a reason to have such a low pick-up range, and understanding the reason to why they put that there can help us understand and come up with a solution to solve that problem. It isn't okay to be just in denial about the reasons to why the pick-up range is so small. I think the reason why pick-up ranges are small is because it creates artificial progression based on my knowledge of previous video games that have similar systems. If you don't think that is the case, then what is it? Do they just want us to suffer and squabble amongst ourselves?

I also proposed my idea for universal vacuum being a gear that is earned from Simaris, with upgrades to have increased range and infinite uses. If you do want to use your pet, then there should an option to do so with a universal vacuum.

But if you can provide examples of how universal vacuum is beneficial to the early game, then please let us know. DE isn't going to listen to a bunch of forum people unless they can provide hard facts on the benefits of universal vacuum

20 minutes ago, bronzebonobo said:

first problem: some primed frames are vaulted, leaving you no choice unless you want to castrate you wallet, to use the base frame

i guess the symaris thing would work, but would not be happy with it

second problem: just because vacuum would be put into warframes doesn't mean it should have a downside, it's qol, plenty of other games have a mechanic where loot is automatically picked up from everywhere, don't know why they are so damn reluctant

Other thing is planet resources are not tradeable, and with the huge amounts of time walls in this game, it evens out you being able to have vacuum innately on a frame because time gating

third problem: if they are going to screw over vacuum, they better leave sentinel vacuum alone, don't even touch it

I already addressed this in my original post. I proposed to keep sentinel vacuum, but also add another option for players either through primes or Simaris. If you do not want to do etiher of them, but still want vacuum, then it could be pretty much tough luck to you.

A lot of games do have automatic loot pick-ups, but usually they are behind some sort of upgrade. One example is in Neir;Automata, where there is increased pick-up range and automatic loot-pickups, but you have to equip them. I have yet to see a game that does not have some way to increases pick-up range without it being an upgrade of some sort.

[bronzebonobo]

3 minutes ago, Mr.ToastForPresident said:

I never said picking up loot was a challenge. Picking up loot is a restriction on the players in order to create a sense of progression. The point of picking up loot is to hold back progression. The reason why developers put in place these restrictions is to spread out progression without giving the newer players too much at the start.

Here is one example I could come up with. Imagine if the player buys an Ubisoft game (just making this up, since any other publisher would be stupid enough to make this mistake) which has a pre-order bonus that gets them this cool shotgun for the next tower climbing simulator. This shotgun is not the most powerful thing in the game, but it sure does make all lot of earlier stuff pretty trivial. What kind of effect will this have on the player as they progress through the game? Maybe it isn't a shotgun, maybe it is a fast car, or some other qol thing the plan to add in their pre-order bonus. How will this affect the game as a whole?

DE knows that if they add in universal vacuum, something is going to change about their dynamics of the game. They know that by giving players this power, they would have to do something to balance it out in order to save the progression throughout the game.

Ever wonder why there always seems to be a new resource that crops up that is rarer and relatively harder to get then their previous resources? Ever wonder why their exists Nitain, Oxium, Cryotics, and Kuva, resources that cannot be easily picked up but earned another way? That is DE's response to that lack of progression for veteran players. They want players to have something to aim towards, always pushing them towards the grind.

If newer players were to get a substantial amount more materials than usual, DE response wouldn't be all sunshines and rainbows, but rather to increase the grind onto them. They are trying desperately to keep a steady progression for newer players in order for them to keep coming back.

I know that a lot of this pick up thing feels very forced. Why do I have to walk over every trashcan in Bioshock and manually pick-up every item?  That doesn't give me any sense of achievement or challenge. But there has to be a reason behind it, or they would not have designed the game like that. Same thing with Warframe. There is a reason to have such a low pick-up range, and understanding the reason to why they put that there can help us understand and come up with a solution to solve that problem. It isn't okay to be just in denial about the reasons to why the pick-up range is so small. I think the reason why pick-up ranges are small is because it creates artificial progression based on my knowledge of previous video games that have similar systems. If you don't think that is the case, then what is it? Do they just want us to suffer and squabble amongst ourselves?

I also proposed my idea for universal vacuum being a gear that is earned from Simaris, with upgrades to have increased range and infinite uses. If you do want to use your pet, then there should an option to do so with a universal vacuum.

But if you can provide examples of how universal vacuum is beneficial to the early game, then please let us know. DE isn't going to listen to a bunch of forum people unless they can provide hard facts on the benefits of universal vacuum

I already addressed this in my original post. I proposed to keep sentinel vacuum, but also add another option for players either through primes or Simaris. If you do not want to do etiher of them, but still want vacuum, then it could be pretty much tough luck to you.

A lot of games do have automatic loot pick-ups, but usually they are behind some sort of upgrade. One example is in Neir;Automata, where there is increased pick-up range and automatic loot-pickups, but you have to equip them. I have yet to see a game that does not have some way to increases pick-up range without it being an upgrade of some sort.

about the whole kuva thing and nitatin, they did put them in because they want you to buy it, not because progression, that is literally the opposite of progression, it is putting up a brick wall and flipping you off at the same time, kuva siphons are boring as hell and repetitive as hell, nitain is alertium that only pops up 4 times a day, vauban takes 20 nitain, so basically staying up for 5 days straight to get all the nitain, but look over here WE GOT THIS shiny prime access that is overpriced for 2 weapons and 1 warframe, spend AAA title worth of money for 2 weapons and a warframe.

i think they can put universal vacuum in, it won't hurt

[(PSN)Tactless_Ninja]

Vacuum is a perk not a necessity. In the old days all mods and resources were the same color so you had to run over to a drop to see if it was the rare material you were searching for. Nowadays it has visual cues telling you it's important. Gold mods have gold line, rare resources are green. They've even given certain resources their own model and caches.

As for player progression, sure it's very useful for newbies but for people that have everything in the game already it hits a brick wall at mastery 23. And the more people play regardless of vacuum equipped or not, those people are going to have massive stockpiles of resources regardless of whether or not they need them. It's why Primed Pedestal is a thing now.

And Warframe being fast paced? Only when I'm paired with other idiot players who dont hold the elevator or split up into different parts of the map on survival. Everything else has a stop gap or a timer. Even doors won't open if you're going too fast, so who you fooling? Grab your kubrow and walk over to that gold mod or green drop for that rare resource you were looking for.

[TankHunter678]

1 minute ago, Mr.ToastForPresident said:

I never said picking up loot was a challenge. Picking up loot is a restriction on the players in order to create a sense of progression. The point of picking up loot is to hold back progression. The reason why developers put in place these restrictions is to spread out progression without giving the newer players too much at the start.

Here is one example I could come up with. Imagine if the player buys an Ubisoft game (just making this up, since any other publisher would be stupid enough to make this mistake) which has a pre-order bonus that gets them this cool shotgun for the next tower climbing simulator. This shotgun is not the most powerful thing in the game, but it sure does make all lot of earlier stuff pretty trivial. What kind of effect will this have on the player as they progress through the game? Maybe it isn't a shotgun, maybe it is a fast car, or some other qol thing the plan to add in their pre-order bonus. How will this affect the game as a whole?

DE knows that if they add in universal vacuum, something is going to change about their dynamics of the game. They know that by giving players this power, they would have to do something to balance it out in order to save the progression throughout the game.

Ever wonder why there always seems to be a new resource that crops up that is rarer and relatively harder to get then their previous resources? Ever wonder why their exists Nitain, Oxium, Cryotics, and Kuva, resources that cannot be easily picked up but earned another way? That is DE's response to that lack of progression for veteran players. They want players to have something to aim towards, always pushing them towards the grind.

If newer players were to get a substantial amount more materials than usual, DE response wouldn't be all sunshines and rainbows, but rather to increase the grind onto them. They are trying desperately to keep a steady progression for newer players in order for them to keep coming back.

I know that a lot of this pick up thing feels very forced. Why do I have to walk over every trashcan in Bioshock and manually pick-up every item?  That doesn't give me any sense of achievement or challenge. But there has to be a reason behind it, or they would not have designed the game like that. Same thing with Warframe. There is a reason to have such a low pick-up range, and understanding the reason to why they put that there can help us understand and come up with a solution to solve that problem. It isn't okay to be just in denial about the reasons to why the pick-up range is so small. I think the reason why pick-up ranges are small is because it creates artificial progression based on my knowledge of previous video games that have similar systems. If you don't think that is the case, then what is it? Do they just want us to suffer and squabble amongst ourselves?

I also proposed my idea for universal vacuum being a gear that is earned from Simaris, with upgrades to have increased range and infinite uses. If you do want to use your pet, then there should an option to do so with a universal vacuum.

But if you can provide examples of how universal vacuum is beneficial to the early game, then please let us know. DE isn't going to listen to a bunch of forum people unless they can provide hard facts on the benefits of universal vacuum

You keep using some very bad examples, a pre-order bonus granting a so-so shotgun during a tower event is not equivalent to just taking the current vacuum mod and applying it to the warframe or to all companions. Maybe even making it rank up through warframe ranking up just like ability power mods were removed in favor of just integrating them into the warframe. Your example is only equivalent to the current market of buying a better weapon so you do not have to use a Braton while you climb the tower.

Do you want to know why DE adds new resources often?

The real reasons?

Plain and simple this game is built around farming mats all day, but it lacks any decent constant resource sinks. Which means any new weapons that DE releases can be made instantly resulting in less revenue unless... they throw in a new resource that is even more annoying to get or self decays. This helps drive people, through frustration and impatience, to just buy the weapon off the market.

If newer players get more resources then before they still wont be able to use them effectively as they are locked behind time, money, mastery, and slots. They are already stuck behind a lot of grind they cannot do anything to shorten. Progression in this game is getting that next weapon/frame blueprint, building it, and using it to build up your master points to move onto the next rank.

[Mr.ToastForPresident]

3 minutes ago, TankHunter678 said:

You keep using some very bad examples, a pre-order bonus granting a so-so shotgun during a tower event is not equivalent to just taking the current vacuum mod and applying it to the warframe or to all companions. Maybe even making it rank up through warframe ranking up just like ability power mods were removed in favor of just integrating them into the warframe. Your example is only equivalent to the current market of buying a better weapon so you do not have to use a Braton while you climb the tower.

Do you want to know why DE adds new resources often?

The real reasons?

Plain and simple this game is built around farming mats all day, but it lacks any decent constant resource sinks. Which means any new weapons that DE releases can be made instantly resulting in less revenue unless... they throw in a new resource that is even more annoying to get or self decays. This helps drive people, through frustration and impatience, to just buy the weapon off the market.

If newer players get more resources then before they still wont be able to use them effectively as they are locked behind time, money, mastery, and slots. They are already stuck behind a lot of grind they cannot do anything to shorten. Progression in this game is getting that next weapon/frame blueprint, building it, and using it to build up your master points to move onto the next rank.

You say I use bad examples, but you have yet to give me good examples as a counter point. What other game has a loot system that has a 10 meter pick-up range from the start without having to earn it? Most games would have a less than stellar pick-up range with the way to increase that being some sort of ability or item. I use other games as examples because a lot of game design is an iterative medium, which developers use to learn and build off of existing mechanics. If you can't think of any good games that have a large pick-up range, then what are you convincing to DE that having such a pick-up range is good?

I know why DE adds more resources, I stated to my response to you. They do want players to grind, that is how they play the game. That is the reason why most players play, is to get something out of it.

So now I ask you, why does DE want to restrict players from getting universal vacuum. If only good can come out of it, then why restrain players? We know now that DE is making a game based around farming, why not just make farming a bit easier for everyone? There is a root to the problem, something that is holding them back from doing so. I stated the reason why they might be holding back, and maybe a compromise on how to satisfy both parties.

You, on the other hand, only say that only good can come out of it. You say that by adding universal vacuum, the new player progression won't change a bit. You say by adding vacuum, you can have a more diverse option to approach things. You say all these things, don't provide any ample evidence, and you expect something to come out of it. Right now you are expecting DE to take a shot in the dark, hoping for the best that Universal Vacuum won't mess anything up. 

[TankHunter678]

4 minutes ago, Mr.ToastForPresident said:

You say I use bad examples, but you have yet to give me good examples as a counter point. What other game has a loot system that has a 10 meter pick-up range from the start without having to earn it? Most games would have a less than stellar pick-up range with the way to increase that being some sort of ability or item. I use other games as examples because a lot of game design is an iterative medium, which developers use to learn and build off of existing mechanics. If you can't think of any good games that have a large pick-up range, then what are you convincing to DE that having such a pick-up range is good?

I know why DE adds more resources, I stated to my response to you. They do want players to grind, that is how they play the game. That is the reason why most players play, is to get something out of it.

So now I ask you, why does DE want to restrict players from getting universal vacuum. If only good can come out of it, then why restrain players? We know now that DE is making a game based around farming, why not just make farming a bit easier for everyone? There is a root to the problem, something that is holding them back from doing so. I stated the reason why they might be holding back, and maybe a compromise on how to satisfy both parties.

You, on the other hand, only say that only good can come out of it. You say that by adding universal vacuum, the new player progression won't change a bit. You say by adding vacuum, you can have a more diverse option to approach things. You say all these things, don't provide any ample evidence, and you expect something to come out of it. Right now you are expecting DE to take a shot in the dark, hoping for the best that Universal Vacuum won't mess anything up. 

In all honestly the amount of games that even have a pick up radius is small, because either the amount of resources you are going to be picking up is small to begin with or instead of picking up materials you are picking and choosing which items you want in your inventory. If you want an example game go look up Nier Automata. It does have a somewhat large pick up radius, which does get annoying because of the limits on the amount of a given drop you can have.

Most games would not have us picking up hundreds of thousands of materials, and most RPGs have a very limited amount of map dropped loot outside of Diablo-esque ARPGs. Which even then the player is expected to pick and choose through the items that drop and not pick up everything.

The argument about why the game has a large pickup range when most other games do not can be flipped on DE: why did they make a mod with such a large pickup range in the first place?

In fact, why did they make the vacuum mod in the first place when carrier clearly should of had ammo case all along to live up to its name of carrier?

Why should DE restrict vacuum to just sentinels? Why should DE keep it as a mod to begin with and not make it inherent when their statistics already show that people refuse to go without it?

 

Why is this subject getting so overblown when it could be made either usable across all companions or make it inherent to the frame and cease it being a subject to consider since the gameplay already assumes it being in effect to begin with?

Cause as far as I can tell all farming in warframe when it comes to resources has been done with the assumption that everyone runs vacuum. All parties are made under the assumption that everyone runs vacuum.

 

The only argument that even makes any sense came from my friend where people would start demanding for a dedicated Redirection/Vitality/Vigor slots or just made inherent. The classic slippery slope argument.

[Evanescent]

Sounds great as gear item, I must say.

[AuroraSonicBoom]

The entire argument is based on a false axiom, that being that convenient loot collection is as important and necessary to you being able to progress in the game as lets say oxygen in survival mission. Not collecting oxygen tanks versus activating towers, I mean the mechanic itself. Not only is the significance of AoE loot collecting when compared against manual looting blown out of proportion in pretty much any post supporting it, but most of the time it's even portrayed as if it's required to progress at all, while conveniently omitting the fact that as players amass a surplus of resources during their time playing the value of said resources, along with the importance of collecting them, decreases drastically. Universal Vacuum simply isn't as as universally required or useful as you make it out to be. Sure, if I'm camping somewhere, do a defense mission or am on the hunt for a very specific new resource of mod I'll equip it, but I'm not going to do that in every mission I play. Far from it. On sorties, I always use Shade(without Vacuum), and if I'm grinding to the focus cap I'll take a Smeeta for the chance of getting an XP buff. Yeah, collecting health and energy orbs a little quicker can affect actual combat, but it's still just not nearly as game changing of a mechanic compared to picking things up by yourself.

As far as I'm concerned the entire OP is just another thinly veiled attempt at misrepresenting the importance of a convenience mechanic to satisfy their OCD.

When it comes to the gear item, I've been suggesting that for a while now, but not in a way that allows players to just emulate vaccum regardless of their loadout. A one time vacuum pull per item use(and significant crafting mechanics) could allow players to get that mod that fell behind a wall without having to resort to vacuum itself. It was one of the few arguments back in the day that actually had some weight.

Edited May 18, 2017 by AuroraSonicBoom

[(PSN)awesomelaw128]

personally i would understand why we dont have universal vacuum if there wasnt so much in the games movement system that points towards universal vacuum being a thing that should exist. Warframe is a fast paced game where at higher levels stopping = death so it doesnt make any sense that when we make these quick movements jumping, sliding, wall hopping, gliding, when something drops we have to tediously stop what we're doing land on the drop and than continue. It doesnt serve anything at any point not earlygame not late, it doesnt serve to make gameplay more interesting, it doesnt make gameplay more rewarding or engaging it just slows and breaks the flow of combat and because of that the game is just more fun and progression should serve to increase variety in gameplay not lock features that make the core gameplay more fun behind certian items that become a neccesaty rather than a choice for most players. (seriously just look at the amount of people using sentinels compared to any other companion)

[(PSN)OmegaSlayer]

When a level 3 Oxium Osprey drops the same amount of oxium of a level 120 Oxium Osprey...all the pro and cons of universal vacuum go down a drain.

[Chipputer]

14 hours ago, Mr.ToastForPresident said:

if there was no inherent downside to universal vacuum, then why hasn't DE made universal vacuum yet?

Why not provide a con, rather than ask others to? You seem to think you know enough about game design to make this post. You tell me what the cons are.

I'll be waiting.