How could DE possibly nerf Loki?

[BloodKitten]

in general, the stealth bonus damage should be reduced if enemy is alerted, invisible melee should not be outpreforming the same melee weapon and mods.

Edited June 5, 2017 by BloodKitten

[jfhsanseiIII]

To be honest two of the factions have nullifiers, one of them is melee exclusive, and then there's the grineer.  Modding for Loki means you're going to be modding for duration, range, or a limited version of both.  I think most people fail to notice that Loki is a solid frame, with good synergy and a very LOW learning curve.   The later gives him the appearance of being OP.  However, things change slightly when you get into sorties or deep into endless missions. That's when I see most of those OP loki's getting knocked out because their standing next to a Nidus with Link on and a bombard in an Energy Leech Nullifier Eximus Bubble.  

[ashrah]

loki is probably one of most balanced frames.. super squshy..

[TheGodofWiFi]

I think I'll quote Benjamin "Yhatzee" Croshaw on this situation; "How is it when you see something that works perfectly well, you immediately decide to try and improve it and @#&$ the whole thing up."

This is quote sums up my thoughts on a Loki nerf as well as a few unnecessary past nerfs. Loki is the epitome of balance in the game. He is very powerful, but also incredibly squishy and can be downed quite quickly if not careful in high level missions. If you don't keep spamming invisibility and disarm, you will die. People saying that he needs his invisibility cut in half and disarm should be affected by power strength, need to learn that this doesn't improve Loki, it dooms him to forever haunt the back of our liset gathering dust along with the Synoid Gammacor, Flux Rifle and all the other past items that used to be good but are now regarded as rubbish.

Loki really doesn't need a change at all. He's perfect the way he is. If anything I want DE to focus more on Oberon.

[(PSN)ghinellil]

I don't feel Loki need a change/nerf. He isn't OP, and who play him invisible all the time are already nerfing themselves, and become almost useless for the team.

Disarm is a great ability, which i see used only by my friends when we do raids 

[Xgomme]

When 95% of Loki players I see don't even know how to play, meh, nerf people not Loki

[cghawk]

reckon his disarm deserves the same treatment as molecular prime, polarize and other such abilities, no longer instant and travels in a expanding wave

[(PSN)robotwars7]

if it were anyone else, Loki could probably be brought down a peg with no real problems, but this is DE we're talking about; they never do things in half measures, for better or worse. if they nerfed Loki, he'd be right at the bottom of the pile.

if anything, I think the people who play as loki are needing a buff more than anything, it's very rare I come across a decent Loki player.

[TheGodofWiFi]

9 minutes ago, cghawk said:

reckon his disarm deserves the same treatment as molecular prime, polarize and other such abilities, no longer instant and travels in a expanding wave

No. Just no. Having Disarm travel out in a wave is a terrible idea.

Edited June 5, 2017 by TheGodofWiFi

[TheGodofWiFi]

2 minutes ago, (PS4)robotwars7 said:

if anything, I think the people who play as loki are needing a buff more than anything, it's very rare I come across a decent Loki player.

I don't think he needs a buff. He just requires a bit more caution to play. People going down while playing him is due to human error.

[cghawk]

Just now, TheGodofWiFi said:

No. Just no. Disarm and MP are two completely different abilities in concept and do not function the same. Having Disarm travel out in a wave is a terrible idea.

same goes for MP and polarize but hey DE did it anyways so following that logic disarm would make sense as it as well, hell it even makes sense description wise:

''Lets forth a wave of energy'' so if anything it should work like PM and Polarize

[TheGodofWiFi]

5 minutes ago, cghawk said:

same goes for MP and polarize but hey DE did it anyways so following that logic disarm would make sense as it as well, hell it even makes sense description wise:

Thats not how it works. Not all abilities have to be made a duration based slow expanding wave. Especially Radial Disarm since it makes it less effective.

5 minutes ago, cghawk said:

''Lets forth a wave of energy'' so if anything it should work like PM and Polarize

No it should not work like that at all. It's an instantaneous wave of energy that you see when you cast Disarm. Loki is a fast paced frame with very low direct survivability. He is not Nova, or Mag. This change would not benefit him at all unless he became seriously tanky, which will never happen. Terrible idea.

Edited June 5, 2017 by TheGodofWiFi

[cghawk]

1 minute ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

Thats not how it works. Not all abilities have to made a duration based slow expanding wave. Especially Radial Disarm since it makes it less effective.

No it should not work like that at all. It's an instantaneous wave of energy that you see when you cast Disarm. Loki is a fast paced frame with very low direct survivability. He is not Nova, or Mag. This change would not benefit him at all unless he became seriously tanky, which will never happen. Terrible idea.

polarize and mp also used to be instantaneous, doesn't mean it can't be changed.

same goes for nova, running over the place with orb and wormhole while dying as soon as a enemy even looks at her funny yet mp was given a delay anyways.

 

obviously it wouldn't benefit him, otherwise it wouldn't be called nerf, same way as it doesn't benefit nova and as seen with nova there is no need to make him tanky, especially when loki already got significantly more survivability than nova in the form of invisibility

[TheGodofWiFi]

Just now, cghawk said:

polarize and mp also used to be instantaneous, doesn't mean it can't be changed.

DIfference is that they used to be "press 4 to win" abilities. Radial Disarm is not one of those as it does not nuke all enemies on the map. It's called balance. Loki does not need a change, which is something that you don't recognise.

2 minutes ago, cghawk said:

same goes for nova, running over the place with orb and wormhole while dying as soon as a enemy even looks at her funny yet mp was given a delay anyways.

Nova is significantly more tanky than a Loki. She is not on the same level of squish as he is. Also in high level missions a lot of frames go down from a single bombard rocket, save from really tanky frames. Loki just goes down significantly faster.

4 minutes ago, cghawk said:

obviously it wouldn't benefit him, otherwise it wouldn't be called nerf, 

Yea and thats why we don't need a nerf. It would reduce him in the eyes of players.

5 minutes ago, cghawk said:

there is no need to make him tanky, especially when loki already got significantly more survivability than nova in the form of invisibility

You obviously don't play Loki as much, or you would know that status effects, AOE attacks and the occasional stray bullet can still catch an invisible Loki. He's only invisible, not invincible. That is the problem many people have with Loki when they ask for a survivability buff. 

A Loki nerf is entirely unnecessary and does not help anyone, be it Loki players and non-Loki players. I know I'd prefer an instantaneous disarm Loki on my team so they can get us out of a hairy situation if needs be. Slowly expanding disarm would detrimental to both the team and the Loki player.

[cghawk]

1 minute ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

DIfference is that they used to be "press 4 to win" abilities. Radial Disarm is not one of those as it does not nuke all enemies on the map. It's called balance. Loki does not need a change, which is something that you don't recognise.

Nova is significantly more tanky than a Loki. She is not on the same level of squish as he is. Also in high level missions a lot of frames go down from a single bombard rocket, save from really tanky frames. Loki just goes down significantly faster.

Yea and thats why we don't need a nerf. It would reduce him in the eyes of players.

You obviously don't play Loki as much, or you would know that status effects, AOE attacks and the occasional stray bullet can still catch an invisible Loki. He's only invisible, not invincible. That is the problem many people have with Loki when they ask for a survivability buff. 

A Loki nerf is entirely unnecessary and does not help anyone, be it Loki players and non-Loki players. I know I'd prefer an instantaneous disarm Loki on my team so they can get us out of a hairy situation if needs be. Slowly expanding disarm would detrimental to both the team and the Loki player.

you pres 4 and enemies are no longer a threat, goes back years, you use loki to disarm making all enemy not pose any threat anymore and then any other CC and easy pick-offs, frost globe around def objective and they attack at the speed of a snail, use it in exterminate and you're fast enough to not get hit by their melee etc etc. who is to say it's balanced? it doesn't look balanced to me.

 

significantly? so you call 75 shields and no stealth ''significantly'' more tanky? not even close I call that slightly more tanky with less survivability.

of course it would reduce him in the eyes of players, that's what a nerf does, if we don't want a frame or weapon to reduce them in the eyes of the users then that means we can never nerf anything.

meanwhile nova doesn't have invisibility so the chances of ANYTHING hitting her are significantly higher and that 75 shield isn't going to make a darn difference once you get past lvl 10.

 

you're simply being biased, you say you prefer a instantaneous disarm, hell I prefer a instant MP and instant Polarize, doesn't mean DE wants me to have it, a slowly expanding disarm has it's downsides and upsides, useful in def, not so useful outside that, just like with MP and Polarize.

 

you keep saying how it doesn't make loki players happy, well shouldn't that be obvious? no one would be happy if a frame or weapon they used gets nerfed so that argument is irrelevant, no one was happy when MP got nerfed, no one was happy when Polarize was nerfed but they got nerfed anyways because DE deemed them balance issues while others did not, it may be the same case with disarm

[Space0ddity]

> ova is significantly more tanky than a Loki. She is not on the same level of squish as he is. Also in high level missions a lot of frames go down from a single bombard rocket, save from really tanky frames. Loki just goes down significantly faster.

 

frames aren't tanky because they resist damage, it's because they dodge damage. even our actual tanks get shot down quite quickly, they survive either with a lot of CC, or they can simply steal more health back than what is taken from them. loki has four abilities to avoid damage, nova has only an unreliable teleport and a questionably useful 1st ability, both of which miles below loki's survivability skills

 

 

to everyone saying "oh loki is squishy", you're dead wrong. loki is arguably as tanky as rhino because he can avoid damage with every one of his abilities and stats. it's like in tf2, a dead ringer spy is ridiculously hard to kill because they always have a speed boost, a fake corpse, and instant invisibility active whenever they walk into combat.

[TheGodofWiFi]

1 hour ago, cghawk said:

you pres 4 and enemies are no longer a threat,

That's entirely not true. 

1 hour ago, cghawk said:

then any other CC and easy pick-offs, 

So should we nerf Vaubans Bastille? Ivara and Equinoxs sleep powers? Mesa's Shooting Gallery? All of these powers trivialise enemies, with the latter-most being mechanically similar to Radial Disarm, except being duration based. CC is king in this game and tends to trivialise content.

1 hour ago, cghawk said:

you're fast enough to not get hit by their melee etc etc. who is to say it's balanced? it doesn't look balanced to me.

What you're doing right now is assuming that every single enemy can't hit a Loki at melee. You present a specific situation in which you make Loki seem OP. I can do that with any frame I want. Put a Nova with a frost who has Ice Wave Impedance equipped, hide behind his globe = easy pickings all day. Or Inaros locking down entire hallways with his Scarab Swarm.

Making any frame look OP is easy given the right scenario.

1 hour ago, cghawk said:

significantly? so you call 75 shields and no stealth ''significantly'' more tanky? not even close I call that slightly more tanky with less survivability.

No I call having more health more tanky. You also seem to forget that she can slow enemies down by 75%.

1 hour ago, cghawk said:

of course it would reduce him in the eyes of players, that's what a nerf does, if we don't want a frame or weapon to reduce them in the eyes of the users then that means we can never nerf anything.

Difference is my friend, is that Loki is in a good place and does not require a nerf. Only to the small minority like you he does, and thats only because you're looking at him on paper and haven't actually played him in a variety of different scenarios for a long time. He is very useful, but very physically weak. Nova and Loki's mains compensate for them and are their saving grace. Without them, they're pretty much useless. Loki has his playstyle, Nova has hers. Not every AOE ability needs to be an expanding wave like you think it does. That just reduces the frames individuality and makes their playstyle more or less the same. Healthy nerfs are ones that actually benefit the squad as a whole. Sayrn's Miasma, Nova's MP and Mag's Polarise all one-shotted enemies at some point, taking away fun from the rest of the squad who barely got a kill in. Loki's disarm does not nuke enemies but rather makes them less likely to one-shot your frame from two blocks away. Unless you derive pleasure from being shot, I don't see how this can be put on the same level as "press 4 to nuke enemies" abilities.

1 hour ago, cghawk said:

meanwhile nova doesn't have invisibility so the chances of ANYTHING hitting her are significantly higher and that 75 shield isn't going to make a darn difference once you get past lvl 10.

You seem to forget that we have a modding system and she has Molecular Prime.

1 hour ago, cghawk said:

you're simply being biased, you say you prefer a instantaneous disarm, hell I prefer a instant MP and instant Polarize, doesn't mean DE wants me to have it

Yes, because you had it once before and it was completely OP. Nuking enemies instantaneously is not what DE want players to be doing. I'm not being biased, I'm being rational. Loki's abilities are entirely CC based, not damage based. CC as a whole benefits everyone. You cannot say a Loki is not useful to a squad because that is not true. He doesn't take any fun away from other players like some previous nuke frames did.

1 hour ago, cghawk said:

a slowly expanding disarm has it's downsides and upsides

There are literally no upsides to making radial disarm an expanding wave, at all. The only difference is that it makes it less useful than it was before. Yea sure nuke-frame enthusiasts can say that MP is less effective than it was before, but the difference is that before it only benefited them and made other players bored since everything was nuked. Loki does not do that. 

1 hour ago, cghawk said:

no one would be happy if a frame or weapon they used gets nerfed so that argument is irrelevant

Actually no it isn't. Unnecessary nerfs are not welcomed by the community, as demonstrated when they released universal vacuum but cut the range down to like one third of it's original range. Some people stood for it (for whatever crazy reason) while the majority shoved it right back and rightfully proclaimed the nerf unnecessary. DE then rectified their mistake and made it the same range again. Sometimes nerfs are really not good for anyone.

1 hour ago, cghawk said:

no one was happy when MP got nerfed, no one was happy when Polarize was nerfed 

Actually, quite a lot of people were happy when that happened, as they could now kill things and you know start playing the game.

1 hour ago, cghawk said:

DE deemed them balance issues while others did not, it may be the same case with disarm

They were balance issues because they removed virtually every enemy from the map and stopped other players from having fun. Loki is perfectly balanced because he is very squishy and has to rely solely on his abilities to survive and does not take away fun from others. You seem to use the same logic as those who say Banshee needs a nerf. This is just nerfing for the sake of nerfing as nothing good will come out of it for anyone.

Edited June 5, 2017 by TheGodofWiFi

[Hypernaut1]

9 hours ago, Ventura_Highway said:

Loki would be in more trouble of the AI actually responded like you would to an invisible enemy, like if something invisible bumps into you, you'd swat it and if you heard someone loudly shooting two grakatas, you couldn't see them but you could probably shoot in the general direction of the sound.

 

Also if more levels were determined to kill you like the Kuva fortress, that would be another issue for loki.

This is all that needs to happen. Improve the way enemies react to cloaked frames. 

It would help balance naramon too.

2 birds with one stone

[TheGodofWiFi]

41 minutes ago, ALOEDA1 said:

frames aren't tanky because they resist damage,

I take it you've never run an Ice Chroma, Inaros, Nidus, or any tank frame at all then?

41 minutes ago, ALOEDA1 said:

even our actual tanks get shot down quite quickly, 

No they don't. Unless of course you're encountering lvl150+ enemies, which by that point any frame becomes as fragile as a glass tea-towel.

41 minutes ago, ALOEDA1 said:

loki has four abilities to avoid damage

Not really. Invisibility is the only true thing that takes enemies attention off him entirely. The others don't make enemies stop attacking him.

41 minutes ago, ALOEDA1 said:

nova has only an unreliable teleport and a questionably useful 1st ability, both of which miles below loki's survivability skills

Nova has Molecular Prime and Antimatter drop. The augment for the latter also mean that it absorbs incoming fire. Also the teleport is more of a gimmick on both frames, apart from the fact that Nova's is slightly more useful since it doesn't require you to pick a target to teleport too.

 

41 minutes ago, ALOEDA1 said:

to everyone saying "oh loki is squishy", you're dead wrong. 

No we're not. Statistics and game-play experience speaks for itself.

 

41 minutes ago, ALOEDA1 said:

loki is arguably as tanky as rhino because he can avoid damage with every one of his abilities and stats.

I'm sorry but you're just not making any sense right now. The only ability that allows him to truly avoid intentional damage is invisibility. This is the scenario thing again where people try and make the thing they want nerfed look OP. Comparing his stats to Rhino is also not a very clever point as Rhino is a tank. Loki is not.

41 minutes ago, ALOEDA1 said:

it's like in tf2, a dead ringer spy is ridiculously hard to kill because they always have a speed boost, a fake corpse, and instant invisibility active whenever they walk into combat.

TF2 and Warframe are two completely different games with two completely different playstyles. This is an irrelevant point.

Please, if Loki is such a burden on other people, list out the advantages a group would get by having Loki nerfed. I'm interested to see what genuine benefits you think this would bring. A nerf has to be substantially beneficial, otherwise it's like the Vacuum nerf i.e; completely unnecessary.

Edited June 5, 2017 by TheGodofWiFi

[TheGodofWiFi]

7 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

This is all that needs to happen. Improve the way enemies react to cloaked frames. 

It would help balance naramon too.

2 birds with one stone

This is something I could get behind. Don't nerf Loki, buff the enemy AI. It's quite amazing that some people always think it's the frame that needs work when sometimes, it's the environment.

[MudShadow]

Meh invisbility needs to be looked at full stop. Loki is no longer due for balance changes alone because all frames have invisbility due to Naramon. But I think in general looking for balance in this game is now pretty pointless because of rivens/power creep, new frames (nidus, octavia etc).

[ALEX_IV]

I don't understand the point of this post.

Why talk about something that yourself do not condone in your disclaimer? It's just a waste of time.

And btw, Loki is a very balanced frame. Talking about nerfing him doesn't make sense at all.

[TheGodofWiFi]

Just now, ALEX_IV said:

I don't understand the point of this post.

Why talk about something that yourself do not condone in your disclaimer? It's just a waste of time.

And btw, Loki is a very balanced frame. Talking about nerfing him doesn't make sense at all.

I think it's because that DE said every frame was due for a rework at some point and it seems that Loki is the one of everyone's minds atm. I really don't want DE to feel like they have to rework every frame though. Why fix what isn't broken. 

If Loki had the stats of Valkyr, plus his powers, then yes I'd say he needs a nerf to his survivability, but he doesn't.

Instead DE could you maybe spend more time on Oberon please.

[Aranaevens]

46 minutes ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

That's entirely not true. 

So should we nerf Vaubans Bastille? Ivara and Equinoxs sleep powers? Mesa's Shooting Gallery? All of these powers trivialise enemies, with the latter-most being mechanically similar to Radial Disarm, except being duration based. CC is king in this game and tends to trivialise content.

That's true, especially with the augment.

 

46 minutes ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

No I call having more health more tanky. You also seem to forget that she can slow enemies down by 75%.

Doesn't make up for Invisibility, Disarm and sometimes the Disarm's augment which adds a Rad proc.

 

46 minutes ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

Healthy nerfs are ones that actually benefit the squad as a whole. Sayrn's Miasma, Nova's MP and Mag's Polarise all one-shotted enemies at some point, taking away fun from the rest of the squad who barely got a kill in. Loki's disarm does not nuke enemies but rather makes them less likely to one-shot your frame from two blocks away. Unless you derive pleasure from being shot, I don't see how this can be put on the same level as "press 4 to nuke enemies" abilities.

Yes, because you had it once before and it was completely OP. Nuking enemies instantaneously is not what DE want players to be doing. I'm not being biased, I'm being rational. Loki's abilities are entirely CC based, not damage based. CC as a whole benefits everyone. You cannot say a Loki is not useful to a squad because that is not true. He doesn't take any fun away from other players like some previous nuke frames did.

Radial Disarms nukes more by itself than MP, MP needs an activator for a chain reaction. If we follow your own argument, Loki should be the one with the wave since he deals direct damage with it, Nova doesn't.

 

46 minutes ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

There are literally no upsides to making radial disarm an expanding wave, at all. The only difference is that it makes it less useful than it was before. Yea sure nuke-frame enthusiasts can say that MP is less effective than it was before, but the difference is that before it only benefited them and made other players bored since everything was nuked. Loki does not do that. 

Actually no it isn't. Unnecessary nerfs are not welcomed by the community, as demonstrated when they released universal vacuum but cut the range down to like one third of it's original range. Some people stood for it (for whatever crazy reason) while the majority shoved it right back and rightfully proclaimed the nerf unnecessary. DE then rectified their mistake and made it the same range again. Sometimes nerfs are really not good for anyone.

Actually, quite a lot of people were happy when that happened, as they could now kill things and you know start playing the game.

That's full of BS. Of course there is no upside to making radial disarm an expanding wave, that's the point of a nerf. MP doesn't nuke by itself once again, and MP is used in a way that it most of the times don't matter since you can debuff at spawns, yet people are still playing. Ember WoF, Banshee SQ and things like that are much more nuky, yet it doesn't travel, your arguments are pointless.

 

46 minutes ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

I'm not being biased

You are and your whole speech is. First the thread wasn't about suggesting to nerf Loki but debate how he could be, that's a difference. Then most of your arguments are just "It's the same S#&$ but I tell you no because I don't want my Loki nerfed", that was never the point of the topic.

Don't get me wrong, I think Loki is in a good spot, if there is an issue it's with stealth, but the matter of the topic is "how".

Edited June 5, 2017 by Aranaevens

[TheGodofWiFi]

34 minutes ago, Aranaevens said:

Doesn't make up for Invisibility, Disarm and sometimes the Disarm's augment which adds a Rad proc.

Yes, both Loki and Nova have useful augments. Also I think applying a damage multiplier, slowing down enemies and being able to nuke all other enemies by killing one, matches up with Loki's kit.

34 minutes ago, Aranaevens said:

Radial Disarms nukes more by itself than MP, MP needs an activator for a chain reaction. 

Nuke as in kill every single enemy as soon as you press the button. Molecular Prime used to do that. Loki never did and will never do that. He takes away weapons. There is no way you could tinker with that without making it less useful.

Also what does the chain reaction have to do with anything? It used to be that Nova just pressed a button and everyone died, now people can just shoot enemies and be the one who starts the chain reaction. I don't see your point.

34 minutes ago, Aranaevens said:

That's full of BS. Of course there is no upside to making radial disarm an expanding wave, that's the point of a nerf. 

Nerfing an ability that does nothing but benefit every member of the squad, makes zero sense and should not be done. Nerfing has to be beneficial to some measure of gameplay. What would nerfing Disarm do for anyone?

34 minutes ago, Aranaevens said:

MP doesn't nuke by itself once again, and MP is used in a way that it most of the times don't matter since you can debuff at spawns, 

Molecular Prime applies slow effect, has a damage multiplier and can be spammed indefinitely. 

34 minutes ago, Aranaevens said:

Ember WoF, Banshee SQ and things like that are much more nuky, yet it doesn't travel, your arguments are pointless.

You are trying to put CC and Damage in the same basket. WoF and SQ are two very different abilities. The former is mostly built for damage while the latter is built for CC. SQ is not a nuke ability as you have to invest heavily in efficiency, duration and strength plus the augment for it be viable for nuking and even then it takes a massive amount of energy. Comparing WoF and SQ is pointless. My arguments are not pointless as they all use the same logic of; what benefits would a quad gain from nerfing Loki?

This is not like the Ash scenario where he could just make enemies invincible and lock down an entire army with Bladestorm.

34 minutes ago, Aranaevens said:

You are and your whole speech is. 

Again, I'm being rational. Just because I speak in favour of Loki not being nerfed does not mean I'm biased, I simply see no long term or short term benefit that can come of it for a squad. For me, nerfs need to be a benefit to the team in some way. I see no way at all how this can be beneficial. That is not being biased at all. I'm simply asking "Why do you want this and how will it benefit people if it happens?"

So far, no one has provided me with a real answer. 

34 minutes ago, Aranaevens said:

First the thread wasn't about suggesting to nerf Loki but debate how he could be, that's a difference.

Loki is a perfectly balanced frame in many peoplss eyes. Creating a thread asking how they could nerf him inevitably brings this sort of discussion where there are some people in favour of nerfs and others aren't. Difference is with this thread however, is that no one can provide clear rational reasons as how nerfing Loki would be good and some sensible people have suggested that maybe it's not the frame thats the problem but the environment.

Read through and you'll see the suggestion that enemies act more realistically to invisible Loki's. That is a far more sensible solution. Nerfing Loki himself instead of buffing the enemies AI, doesn't benefit anyone at all.

Edited June 5, 2017 by TheGodofWiFi