Why Nidus Prime will NEVER be a thing

[Vanrythzx]

i think DE already stated that everything will get eventually primed?

[Gelkor]

11 hours ago, (PS4)Ch1b1N1njaGam1ng said:

We all love primes. Trinity Prime, Frost Prime, Valkyr Prime and SO much more! However people are more wanting of Nidus to be a prime frame, however I will explain why that will NOT happen.

 

The reason why is: It wont make sense in the lore.

 

Think about it, Nidus was acquired from Ergo Glast after The Glast Gambit quest when he gives us a Myconian artifact which was used to understand the Infested better.

 

Lets rephrase that. Nidus was made after the events of The Glast Gambit meaning he didnt exist when the Orokin were still around. Also the artifact was Myconian NOT Orokin meaning they couldn't have made nidus before the collapse.

 

But I'm gonna throw the towel in here. I just KNOW there's gonna be someone who will counter this claim.

 

(Also as a heads up I DON'T have a distain for Nidus I personally Love the frame. Its just that I'm loyal to the games lore and I don't wanna see it being a jumbled mess. So please don't say I'm hating on Nidus.)

No offense, but I'm guessing you didn't read the actual text of Ergo's message. He didn't "make" or "design" Nidus, you don't get Nidus from Glast.  He gives you an Old War Relic that the Myconians had, IE: Something from the Orokin Era. Technology from The Old War. When the Orokin fought the Sentients. Inside that Old War Relic is the Nidus blueprint. The Nidus Blueprint is specifically from The Old War.

Edited June 9, 2017 by Gelkor

[ZodiacShinryu]

4 hours ago, Thaylien said:

Valkyr (and I'm looking at a lot of people here); why do you think that regular Valkyr looks the way she does? She was a warframe before Alad V took her apart to find out how she ticked. The statement in the codex is: 'Forged in the labs of the Zanuka project, the original Valkyr was subject to cruel experiments, leaving her scarred, angry and frighteningly adept at killing.' meaning there was an original Valkyr that he tormented, likely with a Tenno pilot too, and this is why she looks the way she does. A lot of people will point at the Gersemi premium skin, and say 'this is what she looked like before' to which I will respond with; the Codex says 'Before Alad V, before the experiments, there was the Gersemi Valkyr.' This only implies that this variant of Valkyr existed too, it does not state that this is what the original Valkyr looked like. The Prime variant is her original look, just like Oberon's fat neck is how he looked, despite his Feyarch variant, the premium skins are variants too, not the originals.

I don't intend to disprove this because in of itself its sound (and everything else in your post is fine and I am unsure how it was questioned in the first place) but I'd like to elaborate on it. However I think its more that DE backed themselves in a corner more than any other frame with Valkyr. Your explanation makes complete sense but it works because of hindsight and handwaving (like trying to force pieces to fit if that makes sense). I don't think Valkyr will ever be satisfyingly explained because I think the decision was made out of consistency and the business model rather than making lore straightforward. Valkyr Prime resembles Valkyr because all the primes resemble their defaults (even though logically/lore-wise its suppose to be the reverse). It was probably in part to not step on the Gersemi skin (provide less of a reason to buy it) as well as immediately link Valkyr with Valkyr Prime visually.

To dive in a little deeper. It makes sense that Valkyr Prime is the original and its possible for Gersemi to be a variant of Valkyr. However the problem is when Alad V captures and tortures Valkyr and remodels her. Valkyr's appearance makes more sense if Alad V captures the Prime then tortures and tries to reverse engineer. But if we say it was Gersemi then we run into why did Alad V pick those modifications that just happen to harken to the Prime? Did he have knowledge of the Prime? Was it a coincidence? It is all just messy from point A to point B. If Alad V didn't use the Prime as a base then we have a missing link (basically a similar standard mass-production series that fits in between the Prime and the default we have). And without an official design by DE of what this missing link would be, I just see this hole that we either just ignore or we fill in by handwaving lore connectors. All these problems are of DE's own making.

[(PSN)zero1872001]

14 hours ago, (PS4)Ch1b1N1njaGam1ng said:

We all love primes. Trinity Prime, Frost Prime, Valkyr Prime and SO much more! However people are more wanting of Nidus to be a prime frame, however I will explain why that will NOT happen.

 

The reason why is: It wont make sense in the lore.

 

Think about it, Nidus was acquired from Ergo Glast after The Glast Gambit quest when he gives us a Myconian artifact which was used to understand the Infested better.

 

Lets rephrase that. Nidus was made after the events of The Glast Gambit meaning he didnt exist when the Orokin were still around. Also the artifact was Myconian NOT Orokin meaning they couldn't have made nidus before the collapse.

 

But I'm gonna throw the towel in here. I just KNOW there's gonna be someone who will counter this claim.

 

(Also as a heads up I DON'T have a distain for Nidus I personally Love the frame. Its just that I'm loyal to the games lore and I don't wanna see it being a jumbled mess. So please don't say I'm hating on Nidus.)

Tell that To Valkyr Prime...

[Blakrana]

8 hours ago, 1tsyB1tsyN1nj4 said:

Except the Orokin ruled the entire system and easily could have access to Oxium, which is said they even made

You missed my point: Since the fall of the Orokin, making Oxium was something people no longer could do. It was thanks to the Corpus that it was rediscovered. This then led to it becoming possible to make Zephyr class Warframe derivatives, seeing how dependant her construction is on the material.

After all, without the ability to manufacture Oxium, the limitation would be to whatever trace supplies could be gleaned from the Towers; unsustainable, and far more costly. The ability to create Oxium then, for the first time since the Collapse, is why it's a notable item.

[Duduminador]

I'm not following the lore that close. While it is stated Nidus is not like the other Warframes... and his abilities back that up (as to how Nidus can use 2 abilities and his passive without relying on void energy which is core for Warframes and Tennos), there is the fact that this symbiosis between the Tenno and the infested room is OLD as F***, so old Ordis himself mentions it. Anything old enough to be in Ordis' past is by default present at the age of the Orokin, and if it was created by the Orokin, then it was by definition prime.

[(PSN)AtomicEyekon]

DE doesn't respect the lure all 100% so take thay as you will prime example valkyr Prime which cannot be exactly like valkyr and her abilities because valkyr  is unique in her own way yet they made valkyr Prime exactly the same.

[Birdframe_Prime]

5 hours ago, ZodiacShinryu said:

To dive in a little deeper. It makes sense that Valkyr Prime is the original and its possible for Gersemi to be a variant of Valkyr. However the problem is when Alad V captures and tortures Valkyr and remodels her. Valkyr's appearance makes more sense if Alad V captures the Prime then tortures and tries to reverse engineer. But if we say it was Gersemi then we run into why did Alad V pick those modifications that just happen to harken to the Prime? Did he have knowledge of the Prime? Was it a coincidence? It is all just messy from point A to point B. If Alad V didn't use the Prime as a base then we have a missing link (basically a similar standard mass-production series that fits in between the Prime and the default we have). And without an official design by DE of what this missing link would be, I just see this hole that we either just ignore or we fill in by handwaving lore connectors. All these problems are of DE's own making.

You make a fair point, because the 'missing link' explanation is exactly what I was going for. The Gersemi existed before Alad V experimented on Valkyr, we lost it because the only place we currently know to find any Valkyr blueprint parts is Alad V. Finding the Gersemi (for whatever reason you want to give) shows what a variant of Valkyr looked like before we lost that knowledge, but it doesn't show what the non-prime Valkyr looked like, we don't actually know what non-prime Valkyr looks like anymore.

All we really know is that Alad V took a regular Valkyr model, tore it apart and subjected it to experiments, and put it back together again as we see it now. I'll re-iterate; we don't know what the non-prime Valkyr actually looks like anymore thanks to Alad V's experiments, it's why the current non-prime looks a lot like the prime, but overall quite different, because it's a bastardised version of what it's supposed to be.

Maybe when all the Deluxe Skins are done, we can get a new round of them that includes 'missing link' Valkyr, showing the way the frame looked after Prime, but before Alad V...

[(PSN)AtomicEyekon]

WhiteMarker the main thing to know and everyone will agree valkyr Prime abilities should have at the very least been renamed.

[WhiteMarker]

Just now, (PS4)AtomicEyekon said:

WhiteMarker the main thing to know and everyone will agree valkyr Prime abilities should have at the very least been renamed.

But why? Maybe the Orokin made Valkyr as a berserker.
Please don't say, that we agree on that, because we don't. Please give me a reason to agree with you. And I hope, it's nothing made up by users.
What Zodiac wrote about the missing link, that makes sense, and is not made up by users. But that still has nothing to do with her abilities. They could have always been the same.

5 hours ago, ZodiacShinryu said:

To dive in a little deeper. It makes sense that Valkyr Prime is the original and its possible for Gersemi to be a variant of Valkyr. However the problem is when Alad V captures and tortures Valkyr and remodels her. Valkyr's appearance makes more sense if Alad V captures the Prime then tortures and tries to reverse engineer. But if we say it was Gersemi then we run into why did Alad V pick those modifications that just happen to harken to the Prime? Did he have knowledge of the Prime? Was it a coincidence? It is all just messy from point A to point B. If Alad V didn't use the Prime as a base then we have a missing link (basically a similar standard mass-production series that fits in between the Prime and the default we have). And without an official design by DE of what this missing link would be, I just see this hole that we either just ignore or we fill in by handwaving lore connectors. All these problems are of DE's own making.

Is it that messy? Why is it not possible for Alad to get his hands on a Valkyr Prime?
Why does it have to be a Gersemi Valkyr, he got his hands on?
And why does Gersemi Valkyr has to be the Tenno-Version, the mass-product, of Valkyr Prime.
First of all, Deluxe Skins are not really canon, because there is no Hayden Tenno in the Warframe Universe. The Excal Deluxe Skin is just a homage.
But if we say the Gersemi Valkyr existed in the Warframe-Universe, then it could have been some sort of alien-race. The Orokin found this race. The Gersemi were wild and vicious. And the Orokin thought they make a great model to build a Warframe after.

The most important question is:
Users make the lore. The think of ways to explain stuff.
But why do they try to find plot-holes? Why does nobody try to find a way to explain all these things in a way that doesn't leave huge plot-holes?

[Mousarchy]

17 hours ago, WhiteMarker said:

You assume all those things.
Maybe this Myconian-thing was made from a blueprint the Orokin left? Maybe there was a Nidus when the Orokin were still around.
There is no problem here...

basically this. the artifact was the nidus blueprint. nidus was one of the most infested frame design from the orokin (have some theroies pertaning to all the frames but a different time)  The Myconians were using the fact that the nidus frame had infested powers to learn how to harness it to control it themselfs, nidus (and all other warframes) are all relics of the past. So nidus prime COULD still be primed without any lore break.

[Mousarchy]

16 hours ago, (PS4)VoodooRose78 said:

Valkyr and Helios say hi ...

the basis of the sentinal are all orokin (even Diruga is TECNICALLY orokin...just destroyed and ductaped by grineer)
also valkyr old lore stated she was tourtured and VERY angry...there was no proof that she wasnt already angry frame before hand (being a beserker would make it easy to be captured alive as you bullhead your way into a spot you shouldnt be)

[Gorila_Azul]

If it's a frame, it will get primed eventually. Simple as that. DE doesn't prioritize lore above profit, and I don't think they should.

[Redthirst]

I remember people saying the same thing about Valkyr Prime. And yet here we are.

Fact is, DE don't care much about lore when there's money to be made. And Nidus seems quite popular, so you should expect a Prime in the next 2 years.

[Navarc]

18 hours ago, (PS4)Ch1b1N1njaGam1ng said:

We all love primes. Trinity Prime, Frost Prime, Valkyr Prime and SO much more! However people are more wanting of Nidus to be a prime frame, however I will explain why that will NOT happen.

 

The reason why is: It wont make sense in the lore.

 

Think about it, Nidus was acquired from Ergo Glast after The Glast Gambit quest when he gives us a Myconian artifact which was used to understand the Infested better.

 

Lets rephrase that. Nidus was made after the events of The Glast Gambit meaning he didnt exist when the Orokin were still around. Also the artifact was Myconian NOT Orokin meaning they couldn't have made nidus before the collapse.

 

But I'm gonna throw the towel in here. I just KNOW there's gonna be someone who will counter this claim.

 

(Also as a heads up I DON'T have a distain for Nidus I personally Love the frame. Its just that I'm loyal to the games lore and I don't wanna see it being a jumbled mess. So please don't say I'm hating on Nidus.)

Nova was made by the Tenno High Council after they woke up - she did not exist in any Orokin Era.
Yet here we are with a Nova Prime. 
Valkyr was a warrior warframe turned berserker from the torture the corpus inflicted on her.
Yet Valkyr Prime is also a tortured, vivisected berserker using claws instead of blades even if her codex entry states otherwise.

Then we have things like Braton being corpus tech for 5 years and then suddenly being turned into a Tenno weapon because a braton prime was released. Don't pay too much attention to the story, they just ignore it whenever they prime these warframes.

Edited June 9, 2017 by Navarchus

[WhiteMarker]

15 minutes ago, Navarchus said:

Valkyr was a warrior warframe turned berserker from the torture the corpus inflicted on her.
Yet Valkyr Prime is also a tortured, vivisected berserker using claws instead of blades even if her codex entry states otherwise.

Where in the codex is written she was no berseker before Alad had his ways with her?
She was unscarred. But that just means she now has some sort of PTSD.

[ZodiacShinryu]

8 hours ago, WhiteMarker said:

Is it that messy? Why is it not possible for Alad to get his hands on a Valkyr Prime?
Why does it have to be a Gersemi Valkyr, he got his hands on?
And why does Gersemi Valkyr has to be the Tenno-Version, the mass-product, of Valkyr Prime.
First of all, Deluxe Skins are not really canon, because there is no Hayden Tenno in the Warframe Universe. The Excal Deluxe Skin is just a homage.
But if we say the Gersemi Valkyr existed in the Warframe-Universe, then it could have been some sort of alien-race. The Orokin found this race. The Gersemi were wild and vicious. And the Orokin thought they make a great model to build a Warframe after.

Short answers:

Kinda; it is possible though a little strange; it doesn't; it doesn't; it has less to do whether Gersemi is canon (or any deluxe skin) more than we can only work with what we have. DE has injected deluxe skins into their quests (Titania) meaning they existed within the universe regardless of the reason behind them; We still don't know much about the warframes themselves so there are open potentials.

"That messy" is subjective but its messy enough because lets just say primes are new to the universe in our era. Its easy to draw a line of why the Primes look the way they do from the defaults (they are largely enhancements in every way except Excalibur, Frost, Mag). Then there is no disagreement on why Valkyr Prime is the way she is. Part of the problem is that Valkyr is the first (and really the only one) warframe primed that has direct implications of the timeline related to her visuals and possibly her abilities (really only her 4th makes the largest divergence) because of they story set up around her.

Now I suppose I do have to make a broad assumption that warframe only has one timeline so that alternate universes/timelines don't canonically influence things. The timeline (as framed through mostly Valkyr and to the player progression) goes:  Primes (Valkyr) > Mass production (Defaults) <=> Deluxe skins including Gersemi (maybe lore-wise they were prized models for special units or distinguished achievement but its just conjecture) > eventual orokin downfall > Stasis > some hundreds of years pass > Awakening <=> Alad V's experiments > Alad V Corpus fall > Valkyr New Default > rediscover Gersemi > rediscover Valkyr Prime.

I suppose deluxe skins' position in the lore (or how much weight you give to them) doesn't necessarily mean they have to be made during the Orokin era but Gersemi has implications that only make sense if its positioned like that, as well as Oberon, Saryn, and Loki skins being tied into the lore due to Titania (though now that I think of it even this in itself is weird). I guess technically they were Specters.

Anyway, during our stasis most Orokin knowledge is thought to have been lost by the existing civilizations when we awaken (except maybe the Grineer Queens). So if we ignore everything before Awakening, we get Alad V's experiments on Valkyr. We obtain our blueprints on Valkyr based on Alad V's work hence we get tortured Valkyr. Then somewhere down the line we find Gersemi which we thought to be Valkyr before the experiments. Only to find Valkyr Prime who looks like tortured Valkyr by the biggest connector, the arm contraptions on her forearms. Those arm additions are missing on Gersemi plus she also has a long tail. So I wasn't saying it is not possible that he had captured a Valkyr Prime, I was saying that it is the most straightforward explanation to keep this timeline clean (we don't even need to really look at Gersemi this way). It is not like were friends with Alad and he would've told us he took a shiny rare (within lore context) frame apart to end up with what we got but it does sort of push up when Valkyr Prime was actually rediscovered and maybe larger implications on what her powers might have behaved. But if we say he didn't capture the prime, we have to explain away more things that we don't have more information on than if we say he just captured the prime. We don't need to say he captured a Gersemi nor do we need to say it was the mass production model of orokin tenno hence the best option comes to say we have a "missing link" being the mass production model the we technically have for every other frame. The timeline goes into disarray if we DO say he captured and experimented on a Gersemi because then when we discover the prime that revelation is the tail end of the messy problem. That problem is that the mass production defaults are suppose to resemble the Primes by the lore because Primes came first. But if we say Alad V did experiment on Gersemi we get the events where somehow the future Valkyr influenced the past Valkyr by rediscovering the prime that somehow looks like Alad V's experiment. He some how (and most importantly) set up the arm contraptions on the tortured valkyr that were not present on Gersemi but then found to be on a model that was thought to be lost for centuries. We would have to explain that away (coincidence) or just accept that we are missing something. The whole situation just lends better to saying we are missing the actual mass production model.

[Pizzarugi]

On 6/8/2017 at 9:36 AM, Imaru said:

In the Glast Gambit, after Anyo cheats in a round of the Index, getting all of Glast's holdings, he asks what he still has to wager. Glast mentions an Orokin artifact, which we can only assume is the Nidus blueprint. Nidus is eligible for a prime still, but I would be more interested in how they will make him work visually. 

Simple: The Orokin appear fascinated by the concept of gilding. Almost everything ugly seems to be covered in a sleek shell with gold trimming. For Nidus, take out all the lumpy details on his carapace, cover it in alabaster and gold, but as he mutates and his parts unfold, therein lies the true monstrosity.

[Nezha_Rose]

Gonna leave this here. Posted way back when Nova Prime began I believe, it's old.

Got it from this forum post:

 

[Ohforf3]

On 6/8/2017 at 11:39 AM, 1tsyB1tsyN1nj4 said:

Except the Orokin would never permit such an ugly thing to exist in their "perfect" view

I have not read all the lore but from what I have it looks like the Orokin created the infested so yes they would make something as ugly and Nidus.

My theory they made Nidus Prime to control the original strain of the infested as a bioweapon.  It mutated and they lost control of the new strain of infested.

 

Much like Inaros, the normal Nidus was made by reverse engineering the heavily damaged remains of an old prime unit.

[1tsyB1tsyN1nj4]

15 hours ago, Ohforf3 said:

I have not read all the lore but from what I have it looks like the Orokin created the infested so yes they would make something as ugly and Nidus.

My theory they made Nidus Prime to control the original strain of the infested as a bioweapon.  It mutated and they lost control of the new strain of infested.

 

Much like Inaros, the normal Nidus was made by reverse engineering the heavily damaged remains of an old prime unit.

You're thinking of the normal Infestation, the stuff that infects corpses and what not. What the Orokin dealt with was most likely just cells and body parts being put onto and into frames/ shells. Then there's also those frozen looking "plants" in the Orokin towers. They may or may not be actual Infestation, but judging from how derelict towers are broken up by them, it's safe to assume they are some kind of strain of Infestation or something that's compatible with it. To me Nidus is like a very basic frame or a prototype that they filled too much, or yea possibly something that mutated before they could shape it into another frame.

[Ohforf3]

1 hour ago, 1tsyB1tsyN1nj4 said:

You're thinking of the normal Infestation, the stuff that infects corpses and what not. What the Orokin dealt with was most likely just cells and body parts being put onto and into frames/ shells. Then there's also those frozen looking "plants" in the Orokin towers. They may or may not be actual Infestation, but judging from how derelict towers are broken up by them, it's safe to assume they are some kind of strain of Infestation or something that's compatible with it. To me Nidus is like a very basic frame or a prototype that they filled too much, or yea possibly something that mutated before they could shape it into another frame.

I don't think you quite understood what I was saying.  It was late at night when I typed it so I probably wasn't clear enough.

The plants in the towers and part of what the frames are made out of are the original non self replicating strain.  Someone on the Orokin side had the BRILLIANT  idea to tweak it into a self replicating bio weapon controlled by the Nidus frame.  During the self replication some of it mutated in a way that let it break free of their control and became what we know as the normal infested.

[NeithanDiniem]

On 6/9/2017 at 4:56 AM, Gorila_Azul said:

If it's a frame, it will get primed eventually. Simple as that. DE doesn't prioritize lore above profit, and I don't think they should.

On 6/9/2017 at 5:01 AM, Redthirst said:

I remember people saying the same thing about Valkyr Prime. And yet here we are.

Fact is, DE don't care much about lore when there's money to be made. And Nidus seems quite popular, so you should expect a Prime in the next 2 years.

Why are people consistently saying DE doesn't care about lore when absolutely nothing at all about any previous frame's existence (Primes) has contradicted lore? People in this thread alone have effectively nuked that toothpick crutch from orbit and still people use it...
 

17 hours ago, Ohforf3 said:

I don't think you quite understood what I was saying.  It was late at night when I typed it so I probably wasn't clear enough.

The plants in the towers and part of what the frames are made out of are the original non self replicating strain.  Someone on the Orokin side had the BRILLIANT  idea to tweak it into a self replicating bio weapon controlled by the Nidus frame.  During the self replication some of it mutated in a way that let it break free of their control and became what we know as the normal infested.

The plants in the towers aren't infested based, at all. They can BE infested as seen in the Derelicts, but they most certainly are not infested. Nidus was not the original infestation, the Devs already verbally confirmed on stream that he is of a perfected strain, meaning that if it is perfected, there was a form before that was imperfect. The Orokin made the infestation directly as a weapon to counter the Sentients, but it failed. They then worked on improving it and accidentally ended up making golems that could be controlled by the Zariman survivors, the Tenno. With that discovery the Orokin used the golems as soldiers controlled by the Tenno and protected by the Warframes. It is why the Warframes cannot be infested by the infestation, they are already infested with a better version that can't be taken over by its weaker imperfect form. It is also why Nidus cant control all infested, he can only control HIS infestation, his perfected form, and only the infestation that comes from him directly and not all entities of the strain.

Edited June 11, 2017 by NeithanDiniem

[WhiteMarker]

5 minutes ago, NeithanDiniem said:

Why are people consistently saying DE doesn't care about lore when absolutely nothing at all about any previous frame's existence (Primes) has contradicted lore? People in this thread alone have effectively nuked that toothpick crutch from orbit and still people use it...

To be fair, Nova Prime was quite the stretch, when Nova was made by the Tenno High Council and not by the Orokin.
But saying DE doesn't care about lore is less about some contradictions. It's more about DE not telling enough about the lore. (For example, what is the Tenno High Council that made Nova. Were they around with the Orokin? Did the Tenno High Council make Nova from scratch, or did the make her using Orokin-information?)

Edited June 11, 2017 by WhiteMarker

[NeithanDiniem]

Just now, WhiteMarker said:

To be fair, Nova Prime was quite the stretch, when Nova was made by the Tenno High Council and not by the Orokin.
But saying DE doesn't care about lore is less about some contradictions. It's more about DE not telling enough about the lore. (For example, what is the Tenno High Council that made Nova. Were they around with the Orokin? Did the Tenno High Council make Nova from scretch, or did the make her using Orokin-information?)

The Tenno worked under Lotus after the immediate fall of the Orokin and before they were put in stasis where in they probably hunted down stray Orokin commanders and military members as well as Infested, where in the formation of a Tenno council would make perfect sense. The Tenno have created several Primes well before Nova Prime was a thing and no one bats an eye at them, just accepting it as a thing, but when Nova appears people say its a contradiction. The Tenno likely used basic principles of Orokin designs and created their own weapons and eventually Nova Prime, from which normal Nova came into being. Those things the Tenno used to guide them through the creation process were probably lost while the Tenno were in stasis or used up. That on top of the problem withthe Tenno losing their memories would explain why we can't simply make new primes now.